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Author Topic: can people with BPD "beat" polygraphs since they beleive their own lies?  (Read 5661 times)
jupiter
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« on: July 19, 2009, 08:58:45 PM »

i have a question all. i just discovered that the ex idiot has requested to take a polygraph for an assault committed against me. charges will be filed depending on the results of the polygraph. i honestly think this man believes that he didn't lay a hand on me. he is so delusional at times he really does beleive his own lies. do anyone have any experience with this? i honestly think he will pass this and i will look like a fool. i am just so aggravated... .i am so angry with this man and all the destruction he has casued in my life! do you guys think he can pass a polygraph?
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innerspirit
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2009, 09:53:36 PM »

Hi Jupiter -- I hesitate to guess about your situation, but I would think that a pathological liar may have a good shot at passing a polygraph test.  You've got me wondering if there has been research done on pathological liars, sociopaths, etc. -- to determine whether there might be a physiological component which prevents the typical nervous reactions that show up on a "normal" person's polygraph.  I imagine that's why they ask several control questions to start off the test, but there may indeed be an organic difference in those who can fool the system.  I wonder if that's the reason why polygraph results are inadmissable as evidence (?).

There is also a method of reading faces  (subtle eye movements, etc.) to discern whether someone is telling the truth -- I wonder if someone so adept at lying, and/or someone who so deeply believes their own lies, could beat that system as well.

(I had a good sense of when my X was lying --- there was a particular look on his face that I could intuitively recognize.  Deep down I think he knew it, and knew that I knew, and he expected to manipulate me to be part of the rewriting game.  And it's the reason why he would only say such outrageous things in private -- no one else witnessed it and it was just his word against mine, therefore he could get away with it.)

By the way, Scott Peck's PEOPLE OF THE LIE is a very interesting read, about lies that are motivated by fear of exposure.  It seems more typical of the BP than the pathological liar.

In the end though, please know that no one can rob you of your truth.  After the fact he doesn't have to agree with it to make it so. 

But sadly, I don't know how much real comfort that can be if in your situation a polygraph test is the basis for charges being filed.  I hope you have a good lawyer on your side.
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jayvee
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2009, 10:10:36 PM »

I have seen my uBPD mother become so angry & raging that her personality showed signs of dissociating during this time. Later she would say she had no memory of what she said during her rampage.

And yes I believe that they can convince themselves re: their own lies when they want to deny reality.

I think there is a possibility that he might beat the polygraph test.

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Haakonson

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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2009, 12:38:32 PM »

Hi Jupiter,

I think that the ability to lie successfully depends on how much a person can disassociate. My friend's wife who had split into 10 distinct personalities could lie and not be caught if the personality out at the time of questioning had not committed the action. Many of her personalities were co conscious and were aware of the other personalities actions but would not take responsibility for them. The personalities that were not co conscious had no idea of the other personalities actions and could flatly deny what they were being asked.
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innerspirit
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2009, 01:32:12 PM »

So are we assuming that someone who is schizophrenic, who has a disassociative personality disorder is most likely to beat a polygraph test?  I guess that would make some sense, since I've read that different personalities within the same person can have different food allergies, etc. -- indicating a marked change in body chemistry.

What does this say about a more "typical"(?) BP who manipulates the truth to suit the moment, to avoid accountability?

You know, elsewhere is posted a thread about stigma.  I would feel much more sympathetic to someone who lies and literally can't help it.  But if we're talking about a disorder that is so based on exploiting intimacy, I get caught in some circular logic.  How can I not blame someone who (more) consciously denies responsibility, at my expense. But it's a disorder.  But I keep on being cheated.  Damn -- I could watch the guy shape-shift and slither under rocks to avoid being exposed, at least in his mind --- and deliberately present his Other Self to the World Outside.

There probably is, indeed, another spectrum here -- between covering up to convincing themselves of lies to an utter erasure of history.  I'm sure it must be frustrating, Jupiter, to hope for elevated pulse rate, perspiration, skin temperature, etc. to be scientific indicators of what is going on inside the guy's head.
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mmcnulty
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2009, 03:36:48 PM »

It wouldn't surprise me a bit. If someone believes something is true, their physiology will reflect that.

I, unfortunately, have the opposite problem. A realtor friend of mine once said about me that I could tell the whole truth and still fail a polygraph, because I over-analyze questions and situations, and become fearful that my answers aren't complete. He hated trying to sell houses for me, because I was always so ready to point out the flaws. His willingness to hide stuff made me question his honesty.
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jupiter
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2009, 08:37:47 PM »

it really upsets me that he can never admit the destruction he causes to the lives of others... .he even had the nerve to insinuate that i shouldn't be out spending money... .then he assaults me becasue i stood up for myself and now he is denying the whole thing ever occured and trying to make me look a fool. i have never met someone so crazy/disordered/dysfuctional in all of my life! and the amazing thing is... .it that he continunaly gets away with doing crap like this! i just cannot understand it!
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mmcnulty
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2009, 09:38:01 PM »

Jupiter,

That's what BPDs do. They twist the facts until they are unrecognizable to any reasonable observer of what really happened at the time. You won't convince too many people that the situation is as bad as it is right away. People need to experience this to believe it.

I believe you.
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eeyore
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2009, 10:59:22 PM »

he would really take the time and effort to do a polygraph?  That's amazing.
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jupiter
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2009, 04:50:47 AM »

eeyore, the polygraph really through me for a loop. i was under the impression that he would be arrested on the spot kind of thing. pics of my arm were taken etc. but when they found him he must have dragged my name through the dirt, told them i was crazy, adamently denied that he ever touched me... .acted like the perfect upstanding citizen and then the police call me and state that in situations like this they cannot take sides and they offered him the polygraph i guess. but this man can lie so easily i have never seen anything like it! i am afraid of the outcome of this becasue i will look like a fool and chances are he's majorly pissed with me at the moment for outing his bad behaviour again. but i was informed that it may take a while to arrange this test and quite frankly i don't even think he knows himself where he is going to be next week... .so time will definietly tell.
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jalk
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 12:26:32 PM »

Yes, I would think so. The polygraph is based on heart rate... .that increases if you lie. They are so good at this, they believe their own lies, that they could pass. My ex BPD looked at me straight in the eyes and lied to me without a flinch! More than once. Very convincing.
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DC Daniel
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 12:36:28 PM »

Jupiter,

I have been reading your posts the last several weeks and have grave concerns for your safety and the safety of your child. I do not want to sound like someone that is scolding you. I am doing this because I care deeply for the situation you are in.

1) If you know the EX nutcase is going to be at an event DO NOT GO. If you see the EX nutcase STAY THE HELL AWAY from him. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

I understand the pain you feel and the simmering anger but you have to, I REPEAT, YOU HAVE TO, protect yourself and your child.

If you have to move away and start a new life somewhere else, then do so. Your child needs a safe environment to grow up, and you need to find some way to heal yourself from this physically abusive and dangerous individual.

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jupiter
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 02:11:15 PM »

thanks dc daniel, i know he is insane. but the strange thing is, is that i don't fear him like i think i should. i have never been so emotionally wounded as i was by this man, i didn't know he was going to be attending this concert. i thought i was safe considering he his under strict conditions imposed by a judge that he cannt be in any establishment that serves alcohol.i thought i was "safe" and he would not be there but he obviously has disregarded those conditions of release. many people think this guys is nuts. he has a reputation for becoming involved in physical altercations etc and he grabbed me by the arm on the occasion described above. so why don't i fear him as i think that i should? becasue i also know that scared little boy that lurks under his tough guy/i can fight anyone exterior. the man is essentially so very childlike in many ways, that when i look at him i am not afraid because i know this other side of his personality. maybe i should be more cautious... .i think you are correct in stating this since he is a loose cannon... .and i can admit there were times in our relationship when he would rage that i was afraid of him. i guess i am letting the anger win... .i really despise what this man has put me through when all i did was love and try to help him in everyway possible. the fact that i was left with absolutley zero closure and i have so many things that i want to say to him... .when i saw him last friday strolling through the auditorioum hand in hand with a woman whom he previously depised and the fact that he can afford an expensive night out with her and cannot afford to buy my child a pack of diapers REALLY set me off. i admit i confronted him... .trying to get some answers... .i know it was the wrong place at the wrong time but seeing him in all his glory infuriated me and i let this anger get the best of me. and what did i get out of it? a nearly crushed cell phone and a bruised forearm... .and him denying the whole incident ever took place. so basically more heartache as if i needed any more... .i would love to move away from this town but it is not possible right now... .i just hope he will get sick of bumming around here... .that she will eventually tire of his bad behaviour and be done with him for good and he will have no choice but to move on and find his next willing "victim", and thus this vicious cycle will continue.
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ItsMyLife
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 07:33:37 PM »

How did you "discover" this Polygraph business? Were you informed by the prosecuting attorney's office?  The Police?  Any other Credible source?  I'm no expert, but it just sounds fishy to me.

Could it be a Bluff?  Have you suggested that you are willing to take a polygraph too?

My uBPw & Compulsive liar will use anything at her disposal to get you to believe her or to get you to back off.  My uBPw will always use things like "You can call so and so and ask them if you don't believe me."  And, if you respond by saying you want to, then it is twisted into a trust issue. 

Have you consulted an attorney?  Have you considered a civil suit?  Criminal "Proof" and Civil "Proof" are much different.


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kj1234
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 09:02:27 PM »

My experiences with the lying are mixed.  My stbxw was not a good liar when it came to literal lies; in fact, I don't think she did this often until the very end when she just did not give a damn at all what I thought about her, except if she thought it would impact her.  Then she lied like hell for a while.  She also schemed and told me things that were probably not false, but intended to confuse and/or misdirect me.  When she did that she was pretty transparent--I could sense something was not right because of the way she spoke, the way she just brought up things out of nowhere and out of context, etc.  She also had a "tell" that I noticed sometimes when she was trying to deceive me, but I don't want to tell you what it is, just in case she might see this somehow.  I might have to face her in court and this will come in handy.

At the same time, I also believe she had immediate paranoid delusions and also rewrote history like a champ.  I don't know whether she believed the things she said about past history or not, but usually when I reminded her about what really happened she would immediately drop her version and accept my recounting.  Of course, she probably would not have done that toward the end when she seemed to consider me her arch enemy at times.  I would have to think about it to say if this was always the case earlier and I don't feel like thinking about it right now.  Sorry.  Maybe later.

There were a few times when I told her she was full of crap, or that what she was saying was a crock of s*&t.  I probably could have chosen different ways to say those things, but I didn't.  When I said any of these things she would get either angry or upset (I think she cried at least once) because it seemed to really hurt her feelings to be called a liar.  The side of her I knew for years was very proud and serious about being honest.  This is one thing I have not been able to really reconcile, because I believed it for so long and I still think she was serious about it.  But her way of deception was more by not telling "the whole truth" and I guess that allowed her to continue believing she was very honest.  Toward the end she told me only Americans would expect people to tell the whole truth, the rest of the world did not believe in that and "everyone" in her country of origin would deceive people by not telling them the whole truth.  At the time I thought we were discussing a business situation, but it was still disturbing to hear her say it.  Now I think it was one of many times she was trying to change perceptions and change her beliefs to rationalize what she was doing.  Disturbing, but her father did a similar thing in one of my discussions with him around the same time, when I was having a long conversation with him during which he was acting like he gave a sht about me.  At the same time they were executing their secret plan.  I guess people have to create a reality in their minds that does not force a conclusion that they are degenerates.
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jupiter
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 09:07:12 PM »

hi itsmylife... .the officer that took my statement called me and informed me that he requested to take the polygraph. he said it could take "a while" tp arrange it. i was under the impression that he would be arrested as soon as they tracked him down and it was quite disconcerting to me that he was not. i think that he made me out to be the "crazy" one as him and his new gf provided similar statements and the officer said that he is adament that he did not touch me. this even made me question my own reality for a split second till i looked at the bruises on my arm and remembered that the first thought that entered my mind was how he was about to crush my cell phone as he grappled me for it. it's bizarre how this man makes me doubt my own reality. it seemed like the cops were on my side till they brought him in for questioning... .he has smear campaigned me to no end since we split telling everyone who will listen how i am "crazy", "obsessed" with him ans "suicidal". so i can only imagine what he told the police. i was told charges will be laid depending on the results of the polygraph which i do not have much fait hin... .becasue i think he really beleives that the whole incident never occured... .i always thought he believed his own lies... .its one of the many things i found really bizarre about him.
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kj1234
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 09:27:25 PM »

There's only one way to find out.  Make him take the polygraph test.  The results are out of your control.  At least the police will get to know him a little and they may not fully believe him even if he passes the test.  If people can pass it while lying, they know that.  Put him through the process and don't worry about the result.
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jayvee
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 09:38:35 PM »

Hi Jupiter  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Do you have a lawyer representing you? If not, I think that I would at least consult one. I did not think that polygraph results could be used exclusively to determine

guilt or innocence ?

Why don't you offer to take a polygraph test too? Then they can compare the results of both. I wonder if it comes down to it if he would really take one, especially if you volunteered to take one too.

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jupiter
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 09:52:08 PM »

hi jayvee and kj1234, i immediately thought about taking the polyraph too after the officer called me.  i know they lay charges if they suspect a crime was committed. i really do not understand this polygraph business... .i almost just want to forget the whole thing ever happened. i know how convincing this jerk can be. he can talk his way out of the most compromising of circumstances... .its utterly ridiculous! if the officer calls me back with another update... .i will volenteer to take the test... .no question about it. the only thing is is what if i pass and he passes it as well? that will be an interesting scenario. he has done some pretty horrible things to me and i bet that if he was asked about this things while hooked up to the polygraph that he would deny this things ever happened. it is a very interesting concept to debate f he would pass or fail regarding the things he has done. i really think he dissociates during times of rage and he will not believe that he has done some of the things that he has done to me in the past. hmmm i wish i could ask the questions!
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eeyore
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2009, 03:47:24 AM »

I took a polygraph for a different reason and it was very intimidating.  It was one of those ones where if you are a good person you can't pass it because you can't even fathom the questions.  If you are a lying don't care about what other people think or karma you'd do fine.
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kj1234
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2009, 06:37:20 AM »

Jupiter, my thoughts:

You can only do your part.  I suggest, do what you think is the right thing and don't worry about the outcome.  You cannot control it.

One of the advantages lying, consciousless people have is that they know your "cost" will tend to be higher than theirs in conflicts because you will spend mental energy and worry about decisions of conscience, while they will not.  If you can limit how much you worry and struggle over the decision, you will minimize the cost to yourself and preserve more of your life for better things that do not involve him.

If you have thought about both choices, as you obviously have, and neither is emerging as clearly the best choice, just go with your instincts, make the decision and go forward without being too invested in the outcome.  All you can do is all you can do.

He is probably bluffing and would probably fail the test anyway.  How many times have we seen people put on a big show and big fight, find reason after reason to prolong the conflict, only to beg for a settlement just hours before they would have to go to court and be exposed?  Cowards.  It has happened to me before and I spent unimaginable amounts of time thinking, preparing, worrying, struggling with decisions.

Do not give the issue more of your life than it is worth.  Do what you need to do, according to your conscience and intuition, and move on.  Even if the outcome is not everything you want it to be, you will have done your part and can find satisfaction and closure from that.
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innerspirit
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2009, 08:54:21 AM »

Thanks for these wise words  kj1234

Idea I wish I had heard them long ago, for all the gymnastics I went thru in my head about my X.  I wrote a while back that all that mental energy could power a small town. 

He got other benefits from all the misrepresenting he did -- not only did he supposedly get himself off the hook with his denials, he could sit back and watch me take on the discomfort of the situation.  It was a covert way to let me know what I was in for if I brought such a topic again.  It put him back in comparative control knowing that my head was spinning.  It was all about who came out on top, I could see it on his face.  A very subtle cat-got-the-canary look, even saw it in marriage counseling sessions.  (Should have called him on it -- oh well -- I'm breaking the habit of "over-think", much healthier for me in the long run.)

Then if he felt any guilt at all, he could coddle me as the poor troubled maiden who needed his calm, strong example.  Or perform as a Super Nice Guy for someone else.  Ugh.

Am doing so much better now, and I appreciate the reminder.
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