distinguishing BPD traits from just "normal behaviours"

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

OK people start a r/s your o/h thinks your awesome you can do no wrong they hang on your every word and desicions  but after time they start to wake up and see you as mortal not able to fix all of there lives problems , resentment builds , lack of trust and paranoia set in they flip back and forth between "being in love with you " and wondering if you are right for each other they keep this quite but there actions and half added behaviours show someone with one foot in one foot out.they take much more than they give you find yourself spent always trying to make your o/h happy trying to get back to the early years of your r/s but your o/h doubts / criticisms and selfishness keeps growing they become more and more irritable they cause arguments that force you to apologise and look for ways to spend time away from you ... every so often they make you feel like you are still the "one"  even make extreme statments that convince you this person must love me . over time months / years they become more and more disengaged  more and more paranoid you are just there to soothe and help them your needs/wants are minimised or an irritance  till you are just a prop to them till they can cast you off they cast you off with no remorse , they only care about them your use is no longer needed all that's left is the festering anger and resentment they feel for you over "your failures " they accept little to no criticism for their part in the failure of the r/s they care little for the impact because by this time you don't matter all they care about is them . they even  justify there hateful behaviours post BU .

My point is the above description of a r/s cycle could be innocuous a pattern of just falling out of love or it could mean BPD traits how does one define ?

[dobie]

OK people start a r/s your o/h thinks your awesome you can do no wrong they hang on your every word and desicions  but after time they start to wake up and see you as mortal not able to fix all of there lives problems , resentment builds , lack of trust and paranoia set in they flip back and forth between "being in love with you " and wondering if you are right for each other they keep this quite but there actions and half added behaviours show someone with one foot in one foot out.they take much more than they give you find yourself spent always trying to make your o/h happy trying to get back to the early years of your r/s but your o/h doubts / criticisms and selfishness keeps growing they become more and more irritable they cause arguments that force you to apologise and look for ways to spend time away from you ... every so often they make you feel like you are still the "one"  even make extreme statments that convince you this person must love me . over time months / years they become more and more disengaged  more and more paranoid you are just there to soothe and help them your needs/wants are minimised or an irritance  till you are just a prop to them till they can cast you off they cast you off with no remorse , they only care about them your use is no longer needed all that's left is the festering anger and resentment they feel for you over "your failures " they accept little to no criticism for their part in the failure of the r/s they care little for the impact because by this time you don't matter all they care about is them . they even  justify there hateful behaviours post BU .

My point is the above description of a r/s cycle could be innocuous a pattern of just falling out of love or it could mean BPD traits how does one define ?

[SlyQQ]

Well if they start lying to everyone about everything as well thats a good hint an avo on top of it would be a sealer

[dobie]

Well if they start lying to everyone about everything as well thats a good hint

No lying more rising anger , frustration , resentment , blame , and an inability to accept criticism . its never their fault its yours or ours never them .

[sirensong65]

Well, my opinion is (now that I have been through a couple of BPD relationships), if it starts like that, you know, fast and furious... .the other person thinks sunshine comes out your ass and you can do NO wrong, uh, WARNING, WILL ROBINSON.

So, for me, it is all about the start.  A normal, adult relationship will "develop" over time and not go for 0-180 overnight.

[parisian]

Dobie some people without BPD certainly do behave like this - usually people that haven't got their own act sorted. They fall in love and then be dismissive or distant or withdrawn. It depends on what someone's Attachment Style is (there's lots of info on the internet about this).

The difference between someone like that, and someone with BPD is that BPD usually 'switches' once you are in a committed relationship. Once they know they've got you, that's when the BPD comes out - the raging, the lack of empathy, the change in personality, the critical statements.

[dobie]

she has preoccupied /anxious and im secure . From day one i was dealing with her worries and needs .

her rage and resentment was the quite passive agressive type though she could get angry /slam doors at any and all perceived injustices this really kicked off about 3 years ago when she was going to leave me but i made the changes she wanted to stay from the point on she had the upper hand in the r/s i was the one who had to prove myself.

It started out 50/50 as the years went on it was 90/10 in her favour ... .Constant goal post changing , more resentment more demands less trust more paranoia more me trying her less and less so. She became more and more selfish as the years worn on and i became more and more selfless .

[Pingo]

Dobie, your entire post I could have typed except that I was the one that ended the r/s.  Perhaps with time he would have.  I remember even telling him in the first year (before he moved in with me) that I felt he had one foot in the r/s, one foot out.  He always dismissed this as crazy and would verbally reassure me. 

I have been in and out of love many times in my life and they never played out like this one.  I was never in a situation where nothing I did was good enough.  I had never experienced anyone finding my little quirks so irritating!  I had never felt like such an object.  I had never been so vilified after the BU.  So I would say that what you describe is not a typical 'falling out of love' scenario.  Healthy r/ss do not end like this.

[Deeno02]

Dobie, your entire post I could have typed except that I was the one that ended the r/s.  Perhaps with time he would have.  I remember even telling him in the first year (before he moved in with me) that I felt he had one foot in the r/s, one foot out.  He always dismissed this as crazy and would verbally reassure me. 

I have been in and out of love many times in my life and they never played out like this one.  I was never in a situation where nothing I did was good enough.  I had never experienced anyone finding my little quirks so irritating!  I had never felt like such an object.  I had never been so vilified after the BU.  So I would say that what you describe is not a typical 'falling out of love' scenario.  Healthy r/ss do not end like this.

Ditto Pingo^^^^^^^^^^^^

[HostNoMore]

I will agree with SirenSong's point going from 0-180 at breakneck speed into the relationship observation.  I think it's a reliable indicator that something is just not right as that is not what normal people do.

Initially, mine was subtle enough in her abnormal behaviors that I could rationalize then away plus my ignorance of BPD did not help.  Bringing up marriage at week two was rationalized by me as having known each other for so long.  The push-pull cycles were swept aside by my own experiences and watching other couples break up and then get back together.

Moving forward her behaviors began to become even more egregious until I was forced to call her on them.  At that point, I knew something was very wrong.  So I set a very hard boundary with her, and that triggered her to replace me though I'm sure she already had a firm grasp on my replacement before she pushed me too far.  She would have replaced me eventually, but I believe I sped things up to my long term benefit by taking a strong stand.  HF BPDs are quite skilled at hiding their dysfunction so I definitely look at both the subtle things and the big picture of that person as a whole now.    

[whythisgirl]

Its amazing every single statement you mentioned is the behaviour my high functional exBPD-npdbf possessed. At times I would think he is way too smart to act this way but it appeared this behavior would only be present to individuals that dealt with him on a more intimate level. He resently told me that he feels everyone leaves. He was always so paranoid and would get angry if I wasn't at his beck and call. He had the nerve to say to me why not I'm at your beck and call and you should be at mine. I realized if I wanted to step away to go to the restroom or walk somewhere to take a breathe he was on still standing over my shoulder or standing right outside the restroom. I realized he hasn't done much for me. I'm always giving. When I bring that to his attention he gets angry and calls me simple minded. He now uses the gas lighting technique quite frequent. It seems he's too smart to have this disorder but his behavior isn't what a normal person would do. I'm painted black right now for the silliest thing. Yesterday he harassed me via text by fishing for a compliment on a new job offer and when I congratulated him he started insulting me.

[clydegriffith]

I think you can't just determine if someone has BPD by certain traits. You need to look at the complete history you have with that person. When i first read about BPD i took our entire relationship in perspective and there is no doubt in my mind that the X has this disorder.

The over-the-top love bombing when we first met

The fact that she jumped into a relationship with me right when her marriage was ending. In retrospect, she used me to get out of the bad situation she had created for herself with x-husband.

After the initial love-bombing wore off, it was just an endless cycle of seeing everything black and white for her. I would either be the greatest person in the world one day or the object of her wrath her the next. It was a never ending cycle of this. She may be good for a few days or a week but sooner or later there was always an incident followed by tears and apologies and being a good again and the whole thing would repeat itself. As time went on these incidents kept getting worse and worse. It took a traumatic incident for me to finally break free and i'm glad i did. I don't even want to think about what may have happened had i stayed with that woman.

[Elpis]

I'd say the biggest, loudest, most aggravating traits of my uBPDh were never being willing to take responsibility for his mean behaviors, along with its flip-side of needing to blame me for absolutely EVERYthing!

Immature people may exhibit those same behaviors in a relationship, but long term "normal behaviors" will improve as the person grows and matures, and the relationship itself will grow and mature. Not so in a BPD r/s where the pwBPD isn't willing to invest the effort.

[Rise]

This is the tough thing about recognizing BPD behaviors. A lot of them are behaviors we all exhibit at some point, only ratcheted up to 10. We all think in black and white terms at some point. We all become emotional, and at times irrational because of it. Some of us sometimes push and pull in relationships because well, we suck at relationships (I'm talking about myself here in case you couldn't guess). We all blame others at times. Most of us lie.  Most of us make the wrong choices at some point. What really differentiates a person with BPD is the level to which this is taken and frequency at which it occurs. I found it help full to stop looking at and trying to analyze specific events, and focus on the larger overall patterns of behavior.

[dobie]

I'd say the biggest, loudest, most aggravating traits of my uBPDh were never being willing to take responsibility for his mean behaviors, along with its flip-side of needing to blame me for absolutely EVERYthing!

Immature people may exhibit those same behaviors in a relationship, but long term "normal behaviors" will improve as the person grows and matures, and the relationship itself will grow and mature. Not so in a BPD r/s where the pwBPD isn't willing to invest the effort.

Bingo after six years the selfish child just got worse , mine was never mean more critical, sulky, unhappy and resentful . She even addmited if I did not lose my temper in arguments (after she initiated and provoked ) I would have won more . I was the one apologising 90% of the time or trying to resolve .

Even her real reasons for leaving she wants to have "fun" and her projection that I'm immature and childish all point towards her own behaviours .

Its all me, me , me , I, I ,I

30 year old woman acting like a selfish infant.

[Elpis]

OH BOY, Dobie-- yes yes yes and yes to "critical, sulky, unhappy and resentful." My uBPDh has refined those as well as the mean and blaming. It's one thing I have noticed since I've been out of the house, that people who act like that whole sulky and resentful childish thing set off my survival skills, and I want to pacify them. It makes me anxious just thinking about it! I know I need to let them be their sulky self and just protect myself from it.

Her comment that you "would have won more" also points to something I realized was a huge difference in values between my uBPDh and myself--I don't believe relationships are supposed to be a contest! There should never be a winner and a loser, in a healthy relationship BOTH should win as we work toward a joint solution. That's what grownups do.

[dobie]

Elpis its hard to tell if someone is just emotionally immature / selfish etc and not able to take any criticism / prone to paranoia which is what I had over the 6 years or is suffering from a PD .


She had the cheek to tell me she has never been happy with me at all (nonsense) again all my fault .

Every selfish behaviour every action is justified . me me me

Compassion and empathy shallow . all good actions are later paraded as evidence of how wonderful she is and how grateful one should be .

She used to have a nervous eye tick as well ...

Even after her destructive selfish actions during the BU I was told she "is a good person" and "how else could she have broken up with me" plus of course minimising my feelings accusing me of only being upset because of the finacial loss (projection) as this is all she seemed angry about accusing me of childishisness (projection)

[Copperfox]

Her comment that you "would have won more" also points to something I realized was a huge difference in values between my uBPDh and myself--I don't believe relationships are supposed to be a contest! There should never be a winner and a loser, in a healthy relationship BOTH should win as we work toward a joint solution. That's what grownups do.

Wow, Elpis ... .^this * 1000 ... .I was looking for a partner, not a competitor.

Dobie, they are never happy, not consistently.  It doesn't matter what you do.  The disorder always wins.

[dobie]

Her comment that you "would have won more" also points to something I realized was a huge difference in values between my uBPDh and myself--I don't believe relationships are supposed to be a contest! There should never be a winner and a loser, in a healthy relationship BOTH should win as we work toward a joint solution. That's what grownups do.

Wow, Elpis ... .^this * 1000 ... .I was looking for a partner, not a competitor.

Dobie, they are never happy, not consistently.  It doesn't matter what you do.  The disorder always wins.

Before the BU she told me things were going really well in our lives and she was worried "something bad would happen"

She used to tell me she can't be happy because if she is things will end/go wrong

She hardly ever smiled or laughed unless she was drunk

I'm,p just trying to work out if this was a selfish / immature /paranoid / anxious -depressive I was about to marry or a BPD waif

[Rise]

Her comment that you "would have won more" also points to something I realized was a huge difference in values between my uBPDh and myself--I don't believe relationships are supposed to be a contest! There should never be a winner and a loser, in a healthy relationship BOTH should win as we work toward a joint solution. That's what grownups do.

I used to be one of those people that always wanted to win the argument. In going to therapy (and simply in growing in my life) I realized it doesn't mean anything if you alienate the person you want to be with. My therapist said to me, "Ok Rise, lets say you're right. What does that mean? Has your life gotten any better? Are you any happier? Has it fixed anything?" The answer was it really doesn't mean much. I can win every argument, but if that costs me the relationship, what have I really won? Sometimes the choice comes down to being "right" and being happy. I've learned to choose happy.


Well, most of the time at least.

[Copperfox]

Before the BU she told me things were going really well in our lives and she was worried "something bad would happen"

She used to tell me she can't be happy because if she is things will end/go wrong

She hardly ever smiled or laughed unless she was drunk

I'm,p just trying to work out if this was a selfish / immature /paranoid / anxious -depressive I was about to marry or a BPD waif

Yeah, I know exactly how you feel.  I've spent a lot of time trying to untwist this twisted illusion I lived in while we were together, realizing so many things that were said didn't quite add up.  Like I had followed Alice down the rabbit hole.  It's been like a thousand light bulbs steadily going off for the last several months.  And a slow acceptance that to some degree some of it will never make sense.

To the original point of this thread, there are some of these elements in all relationships, but nowhere to this degree.  If it feels like it was bizarre, then that's your intuition telling you something important.

I just keep reminding myself that she was mentally ill, and that the disorder always wins.

[Elpis]

To the original point of this thread, there are some of these elements in all relationships, but nowhere to this degree.  If it feels like it was bizarre, then that's your intuition telling you something important.

The difference does seem to lie in the extremeness of the actions, or the percentage of what you are accused of being at fault for, that sort of thing.

And in the end it doesn't so much matter what was driving her actions--many disorders overlap--but that you realized what was unhealthy! Now you know some things to be aware of in the future. And intuition is huge, like Copperfox says. Most of us who have stayed longer in a BPD relationship managed to shut down our instincts and deny them so we could make the r/s work. Not good.

[Alberto]

The clynical diagnosis for BPD recognizes that when they feel apreciated and cared for, their reaction is emptiness, sadness and waif-like behavior. That's the best a good partner can get out of them, the worse comes when they feel alone or about to be abondoned.

If they were sad, you were a great partner. Don't torture youself because you couldn't make them happy.

[Elpis]

The clynical diagnosis for BPD recognizes that when they feel apreciated and cared for, their reaction is emptiness, sadness and waif-like behavior. That's the best a good partner can get out of them, the worse comes when they feel alone or about to be abondoned.

If they were sad, you were a great partner. Don't torture youself because you couldn't make them happy.

WOW. That puts such a weird spin on things!

Elpis

[Rise]

I'm,p just trying to work out if this was a selfish / immature /paranoid / anxious -depressive I was about to marry or a BPD waif

I hope you don't mind me asking dobie, but what does each option mean to you? What would it mean if she was just selfish/immature/etc. as opposed to having BPD?

[Alberto]

The clynical diagnosis for BPD recognizes that when they feel apreciated and cared for, their reaction is emptiness, sadness and waif-like behavior. That's the best a good partner can get out of them, the worse comes when they feel alone or about to be abondoned.

If they were sad, you were a great partner. Don't torture youself because you couldn't make them happy.

WOW. That puts such a weird spin on things!

Yeah and helps a lot, one of the worse things about my breakups was feeling like I was not good enough. I already suspected it, but it's confirmed they can only be happy for very short periods of time.

[dobie]

I'm,p just trying to work out if this was a selfish / immature /paranoid / anxious -depressive I was about to marry or a BPD waif

I hope you don't mind me asking dobie, but what does each option mean to you? What would it mean if she was just selfish/immature/etc. as opposed to having BPD?

i guess it would explain her behaviour and make them more forgivable .

even after she ruined my bday i said that was a crappy thing to do (pause no apology)

just no empathy no sense of what she has done ... .This from a women weeks before telling me she would kill herself if i died .

and after the BU told me at times stressed I made her IMMENSELY happy . I never saw this level of selfish self centered behaviours in the first few years at least not at this level .

to go from intense feelings of not being able to live without me (killing herself comment)  to i mean zero .

she said when i called her out on that comment after the bu it was just a harmless exaggeration because yeah cpls say stuff like that all the time!

[ShadowIntheNight]

I agree Dobie. I know quite a few normal people, and she is normal as can be getting to know her. However I did notice within about 6 months she would get angry at things and fly off the handle about stuff that was really stupid to get angry at. We even made a joke about her shooting first and asking questions later. And for a time she got better at it. But over time it got worse, much worse. We were together 9.5 yrs and she would tell me about her flying off the handle at work, about being confrontational with stuff she didn't agree with, etc. I always thought if the counseling dept didn't have such a hard time getting qualified candidates and she wasn't such a good therapist, I could see them maybe kicking her to the curb.

Honestly, though, I don't think she'll be there too much longer. It will be 7 yrs for her in Feb and that will be the longest she has been anywhere in a job. She told me regularly she hated it. She's a therapist and hates her job, not because of the documentation part of it, but because she thinks she deserves to be famous. I can tell you she really is a legend in her own mind. Seriously though, I had no idea until after her hurtful behavior in ending our relationship that there was even such a word as borderline. If I really wanted to see her explode, I could tell her that! You'd all see the explosion.

[downwhim]

He idolized me in the beginning and I was so wrapped into it. Having just come out of a 22 year marriage I was needy and codependent. He sucked me in and I could do no wrong. Slowly over time I was devalued and made to feel like there was nothing I could do right. He criticized me constantly. My self esteem hit bottom and I really felt worthless.

Now he is idolizing her and they are on the love boat. I know the seas will get rough. I know he replaced me quickly and abandoned me just as quickly as he hung on to her. He said, I loved you for 8 years love you now but... .

[Tibbles]

I agree with Copperfox, its when you are left sitting there thinking, this does not make sense. That's when the relationship goes into BPD territory. When you start thinking, that's not right as they rewrite history to fit their emotions. "Normal people" might do that to on occasion but not continually and not to the extreme. To me that's the difference.

[dobie]

My x was told she had anger issues at school and even thinking about it made her angry

Her anger manifested in resentment, criticism, irratibilty and selfishness (a form of anger apparently)

What I've learnt is how childish she is BPD or not they say "water finds its own level" at the start of the r/s I was pretty immature in a lot of ways so didn't notice ... .

As I matured and looking back and just analysing everything I can see clearly now what a child she is .

Tough truth but at 37 do I really want a life  partner with the emotional development of a child ?

And if I do what does that say about me?

[Elpis]

One thing that really threw me in the relationship was that my uBPDh SOMETIMES acted like or said something like he knew he needed to grow up about something. And when I was pushing him harder with my boundaries (it was "pushing" to him anyway for me to not accept his mean and angry treatment of me) he'd have these occasional moments of insight that he'd share. Those things kept me hooked in and hoping for change. But in the ratio part of life where the number of promising words are put up against the number of actual changes, well... .actions came out at 0%.

I guess I held on way too long "hoping" he would decide to grow up, when he was the only one who could make that happen.

Whatever the reason our partner chooses not to be a grown up whether a PD or not doesn't matter as much as our own boundaries in the relationship, and mine were awful!

And our forgiving them is for us too so they don't have too much hold on our brains.