I need help... what to say to calm things down

[Depression = 72% of members]

In an eight year relationship with a BPD spouse.  She had been making great progress without therapy until the past two months.  We have eight month old twins, which is possibly adding to her triggers.

Lately she criticizes me constantly.  Often for opposite sides of the same issue.  Do things this way!  Why did you do things this way!  Um, you told me to?

I am so burnt out, I can no longer control my snarky comebacks.  Working on it now, but need help with a particular issue.  The best way for me to calm my temper is to leave the situation.  She has severe abandonment issues that manifest only from me leaving in anger and no other time.  During a lucid moment I asked her about abandonment, and she said she doesn't really have that problem, her pushing away is because she doesn't feel worthy of love.  So that really is the only time that her abandonment fear kicks in.

So I can't leave, and she will try to push me until I lose it.  I need a way to end discussion without leaving the room.  I'm thinking a way of saying I'm not going to argue that doesn't trigger her but has some authority to it.  The only thing I've come up with is to say "I'm not going to argue with you, it's not a good time".  It hasn't worked yet, she just keeps at it..

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[Ventak]

In an eight year relationship with a BPD spouse.  She had been making great progress without therapy until the past two months.  We have eight month old twins, which is possibly adding to her triggers.

Lately she criticizes me constantly.  Often for opposite sides of the same issue.  Do things this way!  Why did you do things this way!  Um, you told me to?

I am so burnt out, I can no longer control my snarky comebacks.  Working on it now, but need help with a particular issue.  The best way for me to calm my temper is to leave the situation.  She has severe abandonment issues that manifest only from me leaving in anger and no other time.  During a lucid moment I asked her about abandonment, and she said she doesn't really have that problem, her pushing away is because she doesn't feel worthy of love.  So that really is the only time that her abandonment fear kicks in.

So I can't leave, and she will try to push me until I lose it.  I need a way to end discussion without leaving the room.  I'm thinking a way of saying I'm not going to argue that doesn't trigger her but has some authority to it.  The only thing I've come up with is to say "I'm not going to argue with you, it's not a good time".  It hasn't worked yet, she just keeps at it..

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ventak]

Just thought of an example, for those like me that deal better with analogies than abstractions.

wBPD chats a lot online with other men.  A couple weeks ago I told her that I used to really enjoy when she shared with me what she was chatting about, and with whom.  That it felt like we were doing it together, and that I would really like to do that more.  After two weeks of no change I asked her if she felt uncomfortable sharing her chatting with me, and preferred not to do it.  The timing was probably bad as I was tired and needed sleep.

She immediately went into attack mode.  Claiming that she had been sharing everything with me, and that she resented me accusing her like that.  I explained that I wasn't accusing her, I just wanted to know if it made her uncomfortable.  She would rage question me with small things that I had to answer yes to (one of her favorite techniques).  Three rounds of this it was obviously going nowhere and I wanted to stop before it escalated...  But didn't have much luck.

What can I say in that situation to stop the conversation?

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi Ventak, I don't think we've 'met' before. 
You sure have a lot going on, with BPD and twins. I can see why you would both be burned out.

It's great that you're reaching out to work on your communication and behaviour, and work on your part in the relationship. We have lots of info on the page here. One thing we often talk about, is validating and invalidating. The idea is to validate what the other person says (which is really about showing understanding for how they feel and not about being right or wrong). And even more important is not invalidating them. It's so easy to do, and that's when things often spin out of control. You can see it often in just 'normal' relationships where for example the girl wants the guy to listen to and comfort her when she has a problem, but he starts coming up with solutions, and then she gets upset. When BPD is in the mix and hypersensitivity, invalidation happens quickly.

You can read more here: Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating. And this one: A 3 Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict, has some interesting info as well.
What do you think?

Warmly,
Scarlet

[Ventak]

Thanks Scarlet,

I posted before I started seeing the wealth of coping information on the site.  I will definitely prioritize those you sent, having only been able to get through 3-4 "lessons" so far.

Unfortunately things have gotten much worse for me.  I feel like I am close to a breaking point, trying to get in for an urgent session with my therapist since I don't want to wait until Monday...

[Vent On]
She has definitely crossed a boundary for me.  Sunday was my birthday.  Friday when I was trying to find a time for my family to come over she told me she had forgotten it was my Birthday.  Then, she was acting reluctant to get a babysitter Saturday night (long backstory, not relevant) until she broke me.  I then explained that it was very important to me to have a good night out with her.  That I take care of people year-round, both home and work, and that this one day I like to be pampered.  We had discussed this when first dating and she used to make a huge deal about my Birthday.  This year she didn't even seem remorseful that she had forgotten.

So we go out, and are at our favorite club for 4.25 hours.  The first 45 minutes were great, then I left where we were to get her another drink.  When I got back, she was chatting with a guy.  She usually gets hit on when I leave, big ego boost for her, so I usually give her 5-10 minutes to chat and then she will wave me over and essentially dismiss the guy.  On my birthday celebration night she proceeds to spend the next 2.5 hours ignoring me and spending time with him.  At 11:45 we move to a different area in the club and sit on a couch.  Someone already there and it's a three person couch so I get stuck sitting on the floor.  The girl already there and I chat a bit, her friends come by off and on, and then it's 12:30.. time to leave.  No birthday wishes..  the girl tells my W that we really shouldn't leave.  Long story, but they spend the next 45 minutes making out and W makes it very clear that I am not welcome to join (we always play together in this type situation), and one point she was physically pushing me away.

I think that maybe she was punishing me for forcing her to get a babysitter, but who knows.

On the drive home, she asks why I'm upset.  I explain to her that it was my birthday and she excluded me all night, so yes, I'm not in a good mood.  She goes into full victim mode.  "I finally have fun when we go out, and you have to ruin it".  Then a ten minute rant about how bad of a person I am.

I'm like:  Why can't you, for just one day, see that I am hurting and try to help me feel better.  It's my F'ing birthday.
[Vent Off]

Things have gotten much worse since then, though she did try to make Sunday a good day with my family.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Oh Ventak, I'm sorry , that is rough. Birthdays and special days seem to be really difficult for many people with BPD, and it hurts to be on the receiving end of it.There are sadly many stories here in the same vein.

You did well in reaching out to your therapist, I hope you get an emergency appointment. Do you have friends you can spend time with to get out a bit? Or some activity you can go do? So you can some time to breath and re-center.

If you feel okay about sharing, could you maybe tell us a little more about what has happened the last few days?

[Ventak]

It's kind of silly, and possibly unique situation.

Some background:  She is bi, and I've always known we wouldn't be monogamous.  Eighteen months in she decided she wanted a poly/open relationship so she could see men, and I would be able to date too.  I'm not a jealous person (ASD plays a role I think) and always thought that might be interesting.  (I later learned that she was cheating online the full eighteen months prior to her wanting to open the relationship just that then it was going to get physical with a guy)  The way this seems to work is that when she gets serious about someone she pushes me to date.  I date once or twice until I find someone I like and she goes off the deep end, but of course denies jealousy and blames me or the woman.  She spends 20-40 hours a week chatting with mostly men (claims it is her only social outlet).  When one gets serious and they meet in person she starts to sabotage it, and rarely has more than one date, never more than three.  I've tried to be monogamous completely (have been for two months as I think that is what set her off 8 weeks ago), but it is hard with her pushing me and my feeling that there is a huge unfairness in the relationship where she spends 20-40 hours a week with other men, even if it is only emotional affairs.  So I date one or two women one or two times about every 18 months.  About once every 12-18 months we pick up someone at our favorite club, or she meets someone there from a dating site.

Other important background.  She has lost seven pregnancies, twins twice.  Three of them were mid-late 2nd trimester.  During this she actually improved quite a bit, through self analysis and self control.  The twins were through surrogacy, and she feels a lot of guilt about that.

The improvement had reached the point there was one "episode" a month (forget what you all call it).  We are now about five to ten weekly.

Basically, she chats online with people on dating sites a LOT, mostly men.  We used to do it together, and it was fun.  Lately it has gotten to where she closes her chat app when I look at her on the phone, and rarely shares what is going on.  A couple weeks ago I told her that I really loved when we did that together and I would like to do that again.  I thought that would be a much better approach then telling her that I was feeling resentment any time I looked at her on her phone...  She didn't really commit, but seemed open to it.  Actions the past couple weeks say otherwise.

Sunday, the woman that we met at the club reached out to her and wants to have a friendship /FWB type thing.  pwBPD told me that she would set up a meeting with the three of us to go out some time.  For some strange reason her just taking that step helped me start healing.  Like she actually cared about what she had done to me.  However, she has been extremely passive about taking that step (essentially telling the other woman she didn't care but if the other woman wanted that too it could happen.  When the woman said yes, do this to make that happen, she didn't pursue it.  Now she is not sharing or talking about the conversations with her).  Now, I don't really care about that other woman.. would have been fun to play around on my birthday especially since I set the relationship with the other woman up while she was chatting with her new guy friend (who is gay) and had been ignored all night, but otherwise not an issue.  So, instead of helping me heal she is pouring salt in the wound...

She has been picking little fights, and then last night I had to get separation, so went to the kitchen at 3:00am since I couldn't sleep anyway.  When I did that, she started texting me on how hard her relationship with her family is, and how they hurt her recently.  I went and comforted her for an hour until she fell asleep.  This, of course, just made MY pain worse, so I went back to the kitchen.  Apparently this woke her up, and she sent me texts asking what she had F'ed up now, since I clearly wanted to wake her up to upset her.

That started a huge fight, with her hitting me about 15 times, her new record.  Saying that I only cared about that other woman... when in fact I've made it very clear it has absolutely nothing to do with her, just my W's behavior around her.  She admitted that she was no longer comfortable sharing conversations with me, blaming me for making it awkward of course.  When I asked for a specific example of my making things awkward she changed the subject.  Then she said that she has been trying to set up something with the other woman, and I made the mistake of calling her out on that.  Then she started ranting about how I just wanted that other woman and didn't care about anything else.  Then she started hitting me.  So ridiculous.

In the past when she has refused to share what she is discussing with other potential romantic partners I've told her I want her to have those conversations in another room if I'm home at the time.  She refuses and threatens divorce if I "abandon" her.  I think I need to set a boundary here this time, but don't know how.

Anyway, I sent this letter to her this morning:

I love you completely.

I understand that you are in a lot of physical pain.  That you are disappointed with your limitations so far in the kids lives.  That you are stressed about a lack of social time, that you often feel like a prisoner in your own home.  I want to fix these things with you… as a partnership.  We need to find a way to work together to make both of our lives better.

What I am experiencing:
After she contacted you, if you had just said that you wanted her for yourself, or for neither of us, I would have been just fine with that.  I even told you that if you wanted just some woman time, I thought it would be good for you.. that you hadn’t had that in a long time.

But then you said you were going to try to get us all together.  After I processed that for a few hours, I told you it meant a lot to me.  Not that I cared about doing anything (which I still don’t), but that YOU cared enough to fix what had happened on Saturday.  I honestly didn’t think you doing that would make me feel different about the night before, but it did.  It allowed me to start healing.

The past couple days, had you told me you wanted to keep her to yourself, I would have moved on.  But from my perspective your words to her and actions towards me about her (the texts you share) are a continuation of what you did and said Saturday.  I’ve only seen a portion of what your conversations are, so I could be wrong here.  But that is how it feels, and it has completely stopped the healing process that had started.
This has nothing whatever to do with her.  Frankly, I don’t want you to set up something for the three of us now.  The ability for that to help me heal is gone.  I do still think it would be good for you to have a woman friend and possibly lover, so encourage you to pursue that if you wish.

I don’t care about her.  I care about YOU.

I don’t understand why you find it difficult to accept that I was EXTREMELY hurt on Saturday.  I felt that you wanted to spend your time with anyone but me.  We were there for a little over four hours, and you only spent the first 45 minutes with me.   The other 3.5 hours I was isolated and alone.  I had been soo looking forward to a wonderful birthday celebration with you that night. 

Then towards the end of the night, you physically pushed me away from yourself in the bedroom while hugging and kissing her saying “no, you can do nothing”.  I felt very rejected by that.  This all occurred just hours after I had been VERY vulnerable expressing how I feel that I take care of others year-round and want to be pampered around my birthday.
This crossed a boundary for me, so I have to at least try to get you to understand.

The past eight weeks you have been very emotional.  Fighting for any reason.  Frequently criticizing me.  Having all that happen Saturday in the midst of this has been devastating to me.  I’m trying to process through it all, but it will take time.  I wish I knew what set you down this path so we could get back on track.

I love you unconditionally

She read it, but hasn't responded and is giving me the silent treatment except for logistics with the twins.  That she is doing that is a very positive sign.

Historically, the next step is her threatening to cut herself or commit suicide.  She actually did cut herself once, so not just a threat.  She claims she almost took a bottle of pills a few weeks ago, but who really knows.

Also, for years she has said she wants to get DBT and therapy before the kids were born... she doesn't want to do to them what she does to me.  They are 8 months old now and I'm still waiting, though I've been to therapy three times now at her insistence.

Anyway, feel better just getting the feelings out.  Thanks for the opportunity.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi again, I have to log off, but I wanted to stop by quickly. There's a lot happening in your relationship, and I'm glad you have your therapist as well as coming here. I'm concerned about her hitting you, and that it has happened before. Have you ever reached out to a hotline for domestic violence? It could be a good idea, even just for information purposes and support.

We also have an article about making a Safety Plan. Maybe take a look? Or stop by our workshop on Domestic violence on men.

Hang in there, we're here for you!

[Ventak]

Thanks Scarlet,

To be honest she hits me so lightly it doesn't really seem like violence.  I think she is giving it her all, but I don't actually feel anything, and she mostly misses while swinging wildly.  Probably only made contact a few times yesterday.  It's only the fourth time in eight years, and except for a broken phone there hasn't been even a small bruise.

As expected:  "If I had a safe spot for the kids to go, I would kill myself. (cold as ice).  But I can't trust you.  You have a mean streak, just like my dad.  I won't leave them alone with you."  "You lose your temper, just like my dad and then make it seem like it is all my fault, and then you gaslight me".  I asked if her mom pushed him and attacked him until he lost his temper.  She said no, but didn't seem to make the connection.

"We are going to get a divorce."  Devolved to "We can live together and raise the kids together until they get in school (six years) and then I will get a job and we can co-parent."

Then her favorite:  "Don't think you can use your money against me.  I can take the kids and go to a shelter and you can't do anything about it".  One time seven years ago.  Before we were married.  I made the mistake of telling her it was my car when she said she was going to leave me and drive down to California.  This has been thrown in my face about twenty times.

Been here so many times...  probably 30-50.

[Harri]

Hi Ventak.

I am sorry you are experiencing all of this.  Your situation has a lot packed in there and I think the best we can do is to take it and break it into smaller pieces.  As someone reading your story, the biggest area to me seems to be the physical hitting and the potential for it to escalate. 

Did you have a chance to read through the link about DV against men that Scarlet linked you to?  It is an excellent read.  It has happened frequently that some situations written about here on the board have escalated to the point of violence and arrests and false accusations being made.  I understand you feel like the impact of her hits on you were minimal.  I am more concerned, as I said above, of the potential for things to escalate and the possibility of you being accused of acting out against her.

Please do talk with your therapist about this too.   

Domestic violence is about power and control.  Do you see the element of control in your wife's actions that I see?

Have a look at the Power and Control Wheel Discussion here (you will have to substitute male for female and man woman where appropriate) 
https://www.thehotline.org/2013/08/20/taking-a-spin-around-the-power-and-control-wheel/

See what you think and let us know.

The other important link is the Safety First link that was given above.  Many spouses, often the men, here develop a safety plan even if that simply involves having a go-bag with extra clothes and copies of important paperwork in your car should you need to leave.

What do you think?

[Ventak]

Thanks Harri,

Hard to reply on the weekends, privacy is hard to achieve when you are watching twins full time ;)

Today is my therapist appointment, so we'll see how that goes.  Will discuss DV issue and best way to protect myself this time and in the future.  I understand now why this is important outside of my lack of injury.  Thanks for the clarification and caring.

She hasn't dysregulated since Wednesday, so we've managed to have some discussion.  She pseudo-apologized for hitting me: "Sorry I hit you, I should never do that... but, you made me angry.  Well, no, you hurt me".  I asked what I said that hurt her, and she didn't want to talk about it.  She then told me that "I" had given her a fat lip.  I asked how, as I hadn't touched her, and she replied that it was when I was defending myself.  Possible, I guess, but I don't recall getting within four feet of her head, and my arms aren't that long.  She also said she's sorry she hurt me and ruined my birthday.  That was in response to the letter I wrote her I think.  I still don't think she understands why I was so hurt by her actions.  Or at least she's incapable of acknowledging it out loud.

I think what set her off is when I told her that night she flipped my pain and instead of understanding and compassion she attacked me and made herself out as the "victim", and that she always does that when she hurts me.  Two of her sisters have made that accusation against her multiple times.  In those cases, from what I've seen it is the sisters who are doing the victim game, so she is justified in her upset at the accusation.  She has a number of "triggers" that we've discussed and I avoid.  I suspect I inadvertently hit another, as is how it happens.