He's back... sort of...

[Zemmma]

Six months after he broke up with me for maybe the 16th time. He got in touch at 5 months, made gestures and when I said I wanted to see him he backed away. Then at 6 months, he invited me over. We spent 8 hours together just like nothing had happened.

Now he is REALLY quiet. He responds every time I text him (basically once a day) but only with a one liner. Like, "it was my pleasure," or "Thanks for sending me that link." He's saying things like, "that was fun."

I think it probably means the usual: I will see you for "fun" every now and again, but I don't want a relationship with you.

He did say a couple things when we had our day together, like "I think I have been in denial," and "I'm ridiculous. I can't seem to let you go, not even in my dreams." (For context, I think he means ridiculous as he has broken up with me so many times, and then finds himself not able to move on).

How to proceed? After all of this time, I am overall just relieved that he opened the door. It makes me feel better and it was so so good to see him. I loved every minute of it. The goal is to keep the door open. I don't want the "I can't go back" text, or "that was a mistake" text. I am "watchful waiting" at this point.

The thing about us is... we can't offer each other a traditional relationship. We won't ever move in or marry. I probably won't ever do that with anyone again and that is my preference. I would like to be in a committed, sexual and loving, supportive relationship without those things.

I love having him in my life. I do love him. So I don't want to be talked out of that. I guess what I'm asking is how to play this so he doesn't shut me out again. Do I just sit back now and wait to see what he does? It's only been four days since I saw him (though it seems longer). The entire encounter was great, and we even went out for coffee and embraced on the street. All texts since (though scarce) have been positive. If anything he may be scared to get involved again. He either doesn't know what he wants or he knows, and he doesn't want me to think he is offering more than just the odd "visit." Any thoughts are appreciated.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

I think it probably means the usual: I will see you for "fun" every now and again, but I don't want a relationship with you.

you may be right about this... .that may mean "for now", or "forever". are you okay with it?

How to proceed?

for the most part, dont over pursue. if anything is going to come of this long term, a foundation will need to be laid, and of course, that takes time.

I am "watchful waiting" at this point.

he probably is too. things have gone sour quickly before. it makes sense that you would both have some guard up.

what do you think?

[Zemmma]

I think it doesn't look good.

I am okay with it for now and for now its better than being shut out. Just for my state of mind.

I guess the don't overpursue is the best idea. At first I worried that he would take silence from me as "I'm okay with this," or "I don't really want more either," but I have left him enough positive messages at this point. I need to sit back. And really, don't overthink it. As in, just keep operating as though we are apart, because we are. And keep trying to move on.

The sense of relief was just so big when he broke that silence and agreed to see me (when he left 6 months ago, he wouldn't even see me to talk to me, or break up respectfully).

Relief. But I know those good feelings are not sustainable. If he keeps dabbling I will want more. I will be more bothered that he is going out with anyone but me. More bothered about how he has been working out again (why does he only do that when we are apart?) more bothered that he seems to have erased all traces from me from his apartment. And more bothered that he doesn't ask me anything much about my life or what I have been doing.

I'd tell anyone else to move on. The facts are glaring. It really doesn't look good.

I have honestly just enjoyed 4 days of relief and not crying. Bah... its a fantasy. I just want a way to feel okay.

[once removed]

And keep trying to move on.

this is going to be extraordinarily hard to do, while inevitably having expectations. its like "dont think of a pink elephant".

I just want a way to feel okay.

just waiting for his contact and trying not to rock the boat when he does seems pretty anxiety inducing.

theres a long history here. there is a lot of hurt and resentment. both of you are probably on guard, waiting for the other shoe to drop - waiting for the other to react as you have before.

when theres a chance at reconciliation, one of the first rules is to grieve the old iteration of the relationship, and to consider any new iteration a "new relationship"... .with a very different plan.

treat this as a new relationship. thats not to say forget the past, but not to form expectations around it in the future. in a new relationship, there are butterflies. there is also some anxiety, some mind reading, some guard up. you dont know exactly how things will turn out, so you dont go all in, put your heart or neck on the line, do self sabotaging things. neither do you keep one foot out the door, and pretend this doesnt require some vulnerability, some trust, some risk, some strength.

have you heard from him yet?

[Zemmma]

Nothing since Tuesday. I think he is sending a strong message. Fun times, but we aren't in a relationship.     

The "don't overpursue" advice is good because I think for a while any getting together will have to be HIS idea.

My friend says it doesn't matter what I do, and never has. She wants me to realize I have ZERO control. And she is right.

But the only fear I have is that he will consider my lack of contact as me not being interested. Seriously, he will make it mean whatever he wants to. He can always back up his agenda no matter how much he has to distort the facts or my actions to do so.

And really, I can't be the pursuer anymore. I have always fought for our relationship and he has always run, or had one foot out the door. I'm sick of my role- having to talk him into it. It's pathetic. When I say how great we are, he feels the need to tell me how horrible we are. If he wants anything from me he has to make some effort. Not to say I don't always jump when he says go.

Right now I am content to sit back. Wait and see. Whether I am living in fantasy world or not I love the relative calm I have as compared to being in full silence mode. Its been less than a week since I was with him but time goes slowly in these situations!

[once removed]

My friend says it doesn't matter what I do, and never has. She wants me to realize I have ZERO control. And she is right.

if thats true, youre going to get steam rolled.

its true you cant make him commit, at least faster than he wants to.

you have a lot of control in terms of your participation. in terms of contacting him or not, when, how often, the nature of it. you have a lot of control regarding your boundaries in these circumstances.

what are they, by the way?

But the only fear I have is that he will consider my lack of contact as me not being interested. Seriously, he will make it mean whatever he wants to. He can always back up his agenda no matter how much he has to distort the facts or my actions to do so.

i think you have laid your cards on the table previously (the exchange the two of you had, the note), and recently (the texts).

it may be he wants to take things slowly. it may be that hes expecting the other shoe to drop. its hard to say. but i think he has some gauge on your interest.

[Zemmma]

Hi again.

He wrote... wants to know if we could actually plan another time to see each other (ahead of time, instead of on a whim), if that would be "possible for us."

So that's pretty positive. Asking already after less than a week...

But he is guarded. The very loaded statement before asking if we could do that was:

"For fun." 

This means, you and me only, no r/s, nobody else, nothing serious. Just fun, sex, food maybe.

To be honest, I don't have any/many boundaries with him. I don't have an agenda. I kind of agree with him that we don't work as a traditional couple and to be honest his lifestyle is madness to me (e.g. he basically sleeps during my waking hours and visa versa). That't just the way he has set up his life and the way he prefers it.

So, I mean, is there potential for me to be hurt in this? If I continue to do this with him and he... .Hides me? Isn't there for me emotionally in between these visits? Keeps me at arms length... ?

Sure. I guess. Maybe. Not sure how it will go.

Will likely do it. He burns the hell out of me. Breakups with him are the worst pain ever. But I have never walked away regretting a moment with him. It's always been worth it.

I answered him very carefully and possibly. I'm going to stop giving more emotionally to him than he is giving to me. He is definitely in the driver's seat. 

I still want to do it.

[once removed]

"for fun", to me, says "lets keep things light and upbeat. no pressure".

like a low attachment first few dates. just having a good time.

To be honest, I don't have any/many boundaries with him.

what about sex?

[Zemmma]

Oh yes, sex. That goes without saying.

Always.

"Lets' keep things light and upbeat. No pressure."- you don't make it sound so bad.

I read it a little more like, "I'll give you the fun night (sex and all the fixings), but don't think you are getting any more out of me.

And to be honest, that is a r/s I could have with him, but I would want it once or twice a week (minimum). But maybe after a while I'd start wanting to be acknowledged in his world, that his people would know I was around... that he wasn't presenting as single... maybe I'd want to go out and do things in the city... other than just alone things.

The difference between my situation and most others... I am not looking to build a life with someone. I have my own house, I am financially independent, and my kids are teenagers, one on their way out next year. I want love and emotional attachment and a forever love, but I don't need anything else. And I would rather live apart but have a monogamous, committed lover. That works well for me. My own space and my special person. And the sexy situation of missing someone and giving them all your time and attention when you meet up. I was with my husband for decades and after a while the desire can fade and they can become a little more like a family member (platonic). I was with my new lover for 7 years and the passion never waned. I would like to keep that dynamic. I want to feel that kind of desire for the rest of my life.

He usually freaks out after a while with this scenario, because I don't think this is his model for true love. The "together, apart" situation doesn't help with his difficulty with trust, jealousy, suspicion, thought distortions, object permanence, and attachment issues. Included in the things I need to avoid in my home are:
-chaos
-a person who never sleeps at night and sleeps all day
-instability (constant threat of breakups, mood fluctuations)
-financially supporting another man (after my ex-h)
-addiction (alcohol, cigarettes, other)

You would think he would love the freedom in this! As he would otherwise feel trapped. He's used those words in the past. He would but because it is my choice, and I've made it clear, he feels it as a rejection. If you loved me more, you'd want to live with me.

I have boundaries but love this man to my core. So yes, lots of conditions I guess.

This sums up a lot of our problems. Because in some ways he is doing this arrangement against his gut, but in the end he can never stay away, despite his best efforts.

[once removed]

Oh yes, sex. That goes without saying.

sex bonds and invests us emotionally. it significantly raises the stakes, in which you are vulnerable.

are you okay with that?

"Lets' keep things light and upbeat. No pressure."- you don't make it sound so bad.

I read it a little more like, "I'll give you the fun night (sex and all the fixings), but don't think you are getting any more out of me.

certainly, you know him better, and you may be right. at the same time, it seems to me that after a few days of distance and relative calm, for him to reach out but stress the limits suggests he might be thinking "hm. maybe this is not a bad idea for both of us. but im going to continue to tread lightly."

And to be honest, that is a r/s I could have with him, but I would want it once or twice a week (minimum). But maybe after a while I'd start wanting to be acknowledged in his world, that his people would know I was around... that he wasn't presenting as single... maybe I'd want to go out and do things in the city... other than just alone things.

this may be something that you can build up to, and it may not be. without being able to know his intentions exactly, if he even knows them himself, its hard to say. if not, the two of you may begin to clash, at some point.

You would think he would love the freedom in this! As he would otherwise feel trapped. He's used those words in the past. He would but because it is my choice, and I've made it clear, he feels it as a rejection. If you loved me more, you'd want to live with me.

this is another example of long term conflict between the two of you. long term, you will need to be able to resolve it, or the two of you will likely clash on it again.

[Zemmma]

once removed... thanks for your help in this...

the thing is he is not single minded... He's yes then no, he's I can't do this, then ___ it...

its the splitting behaviour. I understand the BPD traits well though I've recently looked at DSM criteria and I am not convinced he has the full disorder... .regardless, so many traits, exacerbated by stress. And he has a sibling with BPD, and the DSM5 says family members of someone with BPD are 5x more likely to have BPD as well.

but with the splitting... I am the best and worst thing that has ever happened to him

And when someone splits you, you in turn, split them. It's unavoidable. When he's being the prince, I love love love him. And when he is being villain (or calling ME evil)... abandoning/rejecting/discarding... then I think of him as bad and mean.

I went to a seminar about this recently and the speaker explained that these two images I hold of him might actually be stored in different regions of my brain. Anyways, I'm not sure about the science of this, but I am not integrating the good and bad... .I can not integrate these images... They are day and night, black and white, complete polarities.

BUT! I am an optimist. I am easily pleased. So treat me like crap for a long time, and then bring on the love and I'm like a lapdog. Loyal as hell. Forgiving. Forgetting. I pretty much always focus on the good in him. When he shuts me out completely I try very hard to hate him and I show myself all of the proof (old emails, texts, my own notes) that he is emotionally 4 years old. But its a struggle when I am trying to choose not to want him. It doesn't feel authentic as compared to my true feeling of loving him.

He is emotionally unstable. If he DID move in with me he would become resentful and bored and feel trapped. And if I expected ANYTHING of him that seemed to infringe on his right to party or be free, he would feel controlled. So it appears to me that he doesn't even know what he really wants.

I mean no disrespect, but this guy can't live in a content place in his brain for very long. He struggles. Life to me is hope and possibility. It is sad and despairing to him. He sees the world as a painful place, he gets down about the injustices and inhumanities, and he uses substances to feel better.

But yes. Our bond is sexual, and often intensely emotional. Until he can't handle it.

Sex with him is perfect (for both of us) and I don't expect to ever find anything like that again. I will never choose to live without it, so given the chance I will just keep going back...

But with each of his successive breakups the chance of anything resembling a normal r/s is decreased. At this point I only tell one person that we are even in contact. I've leaned on so many about him, and they are tired to be the shoulder for months on end only to have me walk right back in and try to tell them its a good idea. I've used up all of my hall passes on this one. Its isolating. There is shame in it now. I look like a fool to engage with someone who is SO careless and disrespectful of me at times. Who has claimed everlasting love and then dumped me SO many times.

[once removed]

the tools on this board arent a panacea for a given conflict.

theyre a lifestyle that revolves around getting in touch with our values, living our values and our boundaries (our boundaries come from our values), and handling conflict in a mature way that is true to ourselves. if you want to give this relationship a fighting chance, i encourage you to dig into the lessons, the skills, the tools. ask questions as to how they apply, or might apply to your relationship. 

BUT! I am an optimist. I am easily pleased. So treat me like crap for a long time, and then bring on the love and I'm like a lapdog. Loyal as hell. Forgiving. Forgetting. I pretty much always focus on the good in him. When he shuts me out completely I try very hard to hate him and I show myself all of the proof (old emails, texts, my own notes) that he is emotionally 4 years old. But its a struggle when I am trying to choose not to want him. It doesn't feel authentic as compared to my true feeling of loving him.

this has been the dynamic in your relationship thus far. on some level, it still is.

on some level, it has worked for both of you. because in some ways, both of you are entering into this arrangement against your gut (im not one for solely listening to our guts personally, they are loaded with bias from past experiences), but in the end, neither of you can stay away despite your best efforts. its a "too bad to stay, too good to go" situation.

and if things remain the same, and either or both of you resort to the same coping mechanisms, you can reasonably expect more, possibly even greater pain, and no greater resolution. this change usually has to start with us. and usually, thats scary.

a member here often says that good mental health is hard work, and often requires difficult choices. strive to start making those difficult choices (not an implication that you should exit this relationship).

there are a few paths that this relationship can go down, and no guarantees. the two of you could get on the same page, and find a dynamic that works, move into healthier and more stable territory. its a genuine possibility. it will take work. it will take work on more than just your end. he may or may not follow your lead. another is that the two of you remain in a tentative holding pattern, until one or both of you begins to utilize the coping mechanisms that drive the conflict, or in a best case scenario, you fade apart. another is that neither of you do anything differently, and this simmers or explodes quickly. still another is that it doesnt quite work out, but you have a smoother landing space this time, and something clicks, where you find closure and resolution. and of course, another possibility is that he changes his mind tomorrow. thats a given that you shouldnt ignore, but it doesnt seem like where things are at the moment.

yes, he struggles. its a given that our partners struggle, and they struggle mightily. often times, so do we. i would stipulate that the closure you seek (whatever the outcome) revolves around facing and conquering that struggle. beyond that, it revolves around resolving the long term conflict(s) between the two of you in a way(s) that both of you can live with and find fulfilling. thats a taller (not impossible) order, that will likely require both your efforts (some members on this board have found happiness and stability without any effort from their partners).

There is shame in it now. I look like a fool to engage with someone who is SO careless and disrespectful of me at times. Who has claimed everlasting love and then dumped me SO many times.

a strong support system and good feedback are really critical. i hope that you will seize this opportunity, and work this board really hard, give this your best shot, because yes, while recycling is the norm (in any relationship) each breakup/makeup cycle does damage that becomes harder to repair over time. there is no shame in trying things again. there is foolishness in doing so without a different plan.

if it will help, tell your friends you need support and honest feedback. not stay or go, no hintity hint hinting about leaving, but an honest sounding board that is loving as well as firm. or dont; i can understand if thats a dead end, but lean on who you can.

additionally, if you havent already, id encourage you to find a good therapist who can help keep you checked and balance now, and down the road. strength and balance are key.