Ah, if only I could do the same as you describe. Unfortunately I've been accused too often of delivering a fauxpology, with particular scorn for anything she perceives as "I'm sorry you feel that way". I do think there's a difference between "I'm sorry you feel that way" vs "I'm sorry for hurting your feelings [even though I don't think there's anything wrong with what I actually did]", but I think that difference is too subtle for her. Or maybe she just really wants a guilt-laden apology (she has said this at times).

I think maybe this comes down to the perceived moral dimension to these (claimed) transgressions. There are mistakes like bumping into someone by accident, and then there's punching someone in the face. In both cases we may apologise, but in the first there's hopefully no moral condemnation by the victim nor is there much of a feeling of guilt by the bumper. If both parties accept that the case in question is more like a bump than a punch, maybe it's feasible to give a "sorry for my role in your feelings being hurt" kind of apology. But if she sees it as a moral failing ("how could you be so inconsiderate?!?" etc) then, in my experience, nothing short of "I'm so sorry, I know I'm not considerate enough, I'll work harder to do better, please give me another chance" will do.

Thanks Kells. I am riddled with uneasy feelings... Second guessing. We have discussed it in marriage therapy. We both agreed this isn't the relationship we really want. Or probably ever has been. My wife was saying things like maybe we should try to separate for a while first. I said I wasn't keen on that, I believe that would really confuse and hurt the children and also is just an easy way of not saying divorce. But we agreed we wanted to stay friends for their sake and for parenting. She seemed to relax more when she heard that I wasn't just going to up sticks and leave. So we are taking it one session at a time, nobody filing. A mediator was even discussed. The therapist said she could help with this. It all felt a bit too reasonable to what I was preparing for... However it doesn't mean it will stay that way. I am committed to remaining calm and show that I care, and I am not just going to abandon her. (Like her parents did and really hurt here). Infact that is the main reason she wasn't wanting to divorce due to how they handled it..

Her main fears were a bit alarming, she was more focused on how I would be fine, and she would struggle, I would have money, she wouldn't. I would have a nice house, she wouldn't. It felt more competitive than actual concerns about missing me, or anything like that. Also how she would be all alone, and I have so much support etc etc. The therapist really perked her ears up and asked lots of questions when she started sharing the victim/ hard done by stuff and how my wife didn't think it would effect me.

But anyway there is hope there that this can be attempted peacefully with lots of professional support. I still feel so guilt torn, taking my kids out of their house, uprooting their lives. Keep feeling selfish and guilty and anxious. But the facts are there therapist said herself its a toxic situation, I am being abused, there is no intimacy, and neither of us feel it is the relationship we want or need. So I guess burying my head in the sand and wishing it was isnt going to change anything

Perhaps another perspective and communication change is needed.  Ponder the concept of "sins of omission vs commission".  Maybe there's not much difference, but in my book there is.  Mine were the "acting-in" sort trying to avoid conflict.  My ex's were the "acting-out" sort, which to me felt worse.

With that in mind, I felt I'd do better (or less worse) by apologizing, not for the incident, but for her feeling bad.  Did it work?  Not much in the long run, the marriage still failed, but It helped me to pull back from apologizing for anything and everything to get past the incident.

Yes I really did try to see whether "apologizing for anything and everything" would work.  It didn't.  If anything it got worse.  It got to the point that even when I apologized, she demanded I reword it to include what she wanted in it.  A few times I purposely left out pieces of the reworded apologies and she kept on demanding I restate it over and over several times.  She didn't even realize that I did it purposely, not due to poor memory of her long list.  After several months I finally declared I'd apologize only for what I perceived appropriate.

Also, if I didn't phrase it that way - her feelings - I'd be like the guy in court who couldn't claim innocence after taking a plea deal which admits guilt.  A court is unlikely to rule me guilty of hurting feelings, but might if I had confessed to doing something bad.

Thank you so much for making the time to read my long ramble and for responding. I do greatly appreciate it. It’s all so painful at times. And conflicting. I’m definitely going to check out the resources you mentioned. Thank you so much for that.I think it helps a lot not feeling alone and learning different skills to deal with it.

The relationship with her BPD mom is non existent. She has groomed my child and coaches her with several alienation tactics. She is high conflict and impossible to deal with for me. She creates false narratives about me still to this day after 15 years. She’s really sick.. She adds histrionics and chaos to an already challenging situation and creates the toxicity and dysfunction. I tried for years but there’s no way it ever works. Minimal communication is best.

In principle I agree, and I was doing essentially that for many years (without really knowing what was going on). The problem is that now so many of my one-sided apologies are being used against me as evidence that I'm the deficient one who needs to change in order to fix things. And if I don't, it proves that I've not learned my lesson (her words) and therefore I'm the reason why we can't be close. So I'm really struggling with how to handle the blame in a way that a) defuses the situation and yet b) doesn't sow the seeds of the next conflict.

I have proposed an amnesty, in which all grudges before today are forgiven and forgotten, but she was quite astonished that I would think that we could go back to a romantic relationship so quickly.

Tchabs,

Anger, confusion and sadness are understandable and justified.  Watching a beloved daughter self-destruct can make you feel all those things.  Sometimes witnessing a loved one suffer can hurt more than one's own suffering because we feel so helpless.  So to your list I'd add helplessness, bewilderment, despair, mourning and loss.

My diagnosed stepdaughter is a little older than yours, and probably has traveled a similar path.  She's had four suicide attempts.  I've lost count of how many hospital stays she's had.  She's received world-class treatment (McLean), but even that didn't seem to work at first.  She had to hit bottom, twice, before she realized SHE needed to change in order to feel better.  Until then she was blaming everyone else for her own poor choices and dysfunctional behavior, and she wasn't committed to therapy.

Maybe my stepdaughter had to exhaust all therapeutic options before the doctors explained to her that, the next time she tried to commit suicide, she would be committed against her will, because they'd already tried everything to help her and nothing seemed to work.  That was probably a wake-up call for her.  Another ultimatum came from her dad, who said that any continued financial support was contingent on her following the doctors' treatment plan.  She could choose to go her own way, but then she'd have to come up with her own money.

I'm writing to say that you aren't alone; many people on these boards have faced similar challenges.  You're also not to blame.  Your daughter is an adult, and she is responsible for her choices, no matter how misguided.  She's the one who needs to decide her approach isn't working anymore and that she's ready for therapy.  If she threatens or attempts suicide, you need to call 911 and get her to the hospital.  You can only hope that she'll learn that such gestures have consequences, sooner rather than later.

Finally I want to give you some hope.  My stepdaughter was in a bad way, and I felt that her probability of giving up and killing herself was pretty high, as she had dark moods and extreme impulsivity.  As I said, she tried it four times.  But since she heard the ultimatums and was desperate for things to get better, she started to work with her doctors and therapist.  She's making some progress in the right direction.  Though she's had some setbacks and she's developmentally still lagging behind, she's in a much better place now than a year ago.  And I think she's young enough to learn how to cope better with her emotions.

Here's the thing- you and I can debate literally any of the tough topics in the world right now (politics, religion, war in Israel, border crossings, COVID, etc) and there's a decent chance we wouldn't agree on everything.  Could we still build a relationship though?

Of course we could, as long as the thing we disagreed on isn't the basis of our relationship.

Right now, the basis of your marriage is arguing over who said or did what in the past.  Why does that remotely matter though?  Why are you wasting energy trying to say "I'm right" or "You're wrong" with the person you love?  What could you possibly gain from that other than a divorce?

It's like that old movie WarGames about nuclear war- the only way to win is not to play.

Look, I was married to a BPD wife for 25 years...and we had a BPD daughter.  I completely get it.  Just last week, my ex brought up something that happened 24 years ago, and her "recollection" was that it was 100% my fault and she was the victim.  That's not what happened at all, and we are divorced now.  So what's the point in fighting over that?  I simply told her that we both shared blame and I'm truly sorry for what happened. 

And she was silent- what could she say?  That thing hurt her enough to carry it for 24 years, so I apologized for my part.  In other words, I validated the valid, while lightly pointing out the invalid.  Just one quick, simple sentence filled with remorse and empathy.  I wasn't going to play the game, so I let her "win".

I didn't get an apology for her part in the argument 24 years ago, but I didn't need that either.  The simple truth is that I let that go 24 years ago like a typical spouse who's not mentally ill.  I did my part for her, to let her heal and let go, and our conversations the next several days were very different.  She wasn't on edge as much and she showed me more empathy for some things I'm dealing with.  So in a way, I "won" as well by choosing not to play the blame game.

You don't have to accept your wife's interpretation to fix things.  Instead, you need to stop playing the game entirely and get back to simply loving her.  That allows her to re-center and get back to loving you as well.  You're the "mentally stable" one here though and that means you have to take the lead.

Hi divina,

I get what you're saying about words vs actions. Before I knew about BPD, I would get so confused when my H's kids' mom (many BPD traits/behaviors) would say words that seemed healthy ("relationships are built on trust") but the "boots on the ground" experience of her actions was so toxic.

It sounds like your D18 lives with you. You also mention her father; are you and her father married? living together?

I wonder if at some level the BPD involved is impairing what should be a normal process for your D18, of spreading her wings, leaving the nest, and living individually. Perhaps she's coping with fears of being alone/abandoned as she matures, but instead of being able to work through those in a healthy way, the disorder is showing up -- she's vandalizing your things, doing untrustworthy actions, blaming, and distorting.

It might fall to you to initiate the journey towards her living separately; maybe that could be a good thing for her to have more space, even though the disorder impairs her ability to make it happen on her own?

Could separate living improve the relationship between you two, do you think? It would remove some of the current conflicts.

It also might be worth thinking about putting a lock on your bedroom door, without explanation or justification needed. You can do it -- it's your home and you're allowed to decide what behaviors you are OK with experiencing. She might not like the lock, but whether a pwBPD likes a boundary or not isn't indicative of whether it functions to protect you.

Lots of food for thought, for your challenging situation. Hope some of it lands for you;

kells76

Hi BT400 and

This is tough. These are the hardest relationships, and people who have families without PD dynamics sometimes don't get it.

Like you found, intuitive relational moves ("just be nicer") don't always make things better when BPD is involved. Sometimes it can take more strategic thinking plus new tools, skills, and approaches, to get things "okay enough".

What kind of support do you have for yourself right now? Individual therapist, clergy person, family, friends?  

While (as far as I can tell) my husband's teen kids don't have BPD, their mom has many traits, and she remarried to a guy with many NPD traits, so it's in the family system. My H and I have needed a marriage counselor for ourselves, and I have an individual counselor, even though neither of us have a PD -- it's that difficult to cope with. I get it.

I've also signed up for the NEABPD's reputable Family Connections program, which is a free 8-12 week online program for family members of loved ones with BPD. My understanding of the program is that the leaders also have family members with BPD, so they have lived what you're living. There is a strong focus on current research, evidence based approaches, your own learning and skills improvement, and self care. Take a look -- could be a good fit.

...

Do you and her mom have any kind of cooperation/communication at this point? Are there any areas of coparenting where conflict is lower (transportation, attending school meetings, etc)? We are currently at zero communication with H's kids' mom right now, so I get it.

I think this is right. I'm OK with different, but not with distant. She says that my asking whether she still actually wants me, in a deeper sense than just wanting me to be under the same roof, is selfish and greedy. That it will take time for her to recover from my backstabbing. But we're 4 months in with not much sign of change, nor of either of us accepting the other person's interpretation. I don't want to wait years and find that it was all in vain.

I think if she accepted that she has these tendencies, and after the blowups there was some balance to our understanding of what went wrong, I could handle a new relationship. But if every one of these gets recorded on a charge sheet against me for all time, as further justification for a hair trigger, then I don't want to be part of it.