BPD traits include extreme levels of Blaming, Blame Shifting, Projection, self-oriented perceptions, insistence on emotional perceptions as facts and reality, etc.  Such a person's thinking is skewed away from normalcy.  It's hard to wrap our brains around that.  So you deal with "what is".

One factor you need to keep in mind is that some who might help could be oriented toward repairing or patching up the relationship.  You've been with her some three decades and she hasn't made progress toward recovery.  With her gaining sudden recovery being so unlikely, unwinding the marriage makes sense.


We don't know how the details of court systems work there but typically divorce is where either spouse can initiate the process and the court will act more or less as a slow and somewhat reluctant referee.  The big difference is that for once it doesn't matter how much your spouse insists on control... court is The Real Authority.

We speak here of Boundaries, but with a twist.  Since people with BPD traits (pwBPD) are known to resist boundaries, we therefore can choose to make our own boundaries, not for the other but for us, and how we respond to poor behavior.  That perspective is not intuitive but it works more or less.  Court's version of boundaries are named "orders".


Having someone as a counselor or therapist can undoubtedly be a huge resource and support.  Your children too would benefit as well.  Have you encouraged that?  Even if your spouse might refuse to allow your minor daughter to start counseling, court may agree to step in and order therapy as one of the steps in divorce.  As my lawyer told me many years ago, "Courts love counseling."

That basically describes the living arrangements and relationship that my eldest stepdaughter had with her bio parents, when she was in her late teens and early 20s.  She tended to spend more time with her dad and me at our house, which is stable and welcoming, a reliable "base camp" with a stocked fridge.  And then she'd have shorter visits with her mom, whom I don't know very well but I gather is a high-conflict, chaotic personality (I saw a picture of the inside of her home once and noted how chaotic it was).  Yet she's probably also fun--I've heard stories of loud parties, for example.  Her dad NEVER disparages his ex-wife in front of his kids and does not get in the way of them visiting with their bio mom.  In fact, for years, he facilitated visits, by driving the kids between residences when they weren't old enough to drive, typically multiple times per week.

Having said that, my younger BPD stepdaughter hasn't spoken to her bio mom for years now.  I can't be sure how much of that relates to her own BPD, her mom's high-conflict nature, or both.  The two of them are probably too volatile for each other to have a stable relationship right now.  It's sad, but it is what it is.

That's just a long-winded way of saying I agree with Notwendy's points.

Thank you for these thoughtful responses.  They are thought-provoking for me.

I should clarify that I'm the mother here -- no wife involved, only a husband who also gets blamed for a lot but luckily is super thick-skinned.  My daughter knows about my sister's condition and has put up with a lot from her because of it.  She finally decided that she was going to speak up about some things that really upset her.  I turn the other cheek all the time, but it doesn't seem to me to be fair to tell my daughter that she needs to choose to do the same. 

And I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of listening to my sister bad mouth my daughter --- also seems like a slippery slope to getting pulled in.

But perhaps there are options I'm missing....

Hi Bpd_ Dad

I think that you are right to stand your ground over your wife. Im also glad that you recognise that your dd is using manipulation to try to control you.

I was finally cut off from my gc  5 years ago and replaced by her new partner the very same week they first met which I still have never met.

Unfortunately it may be the case that your dd will never accept your wife and you may never hear from her again. It may also be the case that she does come to you even in the short term but expect it to be for something she needs help with and not be to re-establish a r/s or compromise over your wife. This is all really about HER feelings and the feelings towards your wife and where the effects upon your gc and their feelings have no relevance are not taken into consideration.

Being estranged from gc is not easy especially when seeing them regularly and then nothing. For me it has been like a bereavement. The pain is still there, but the ache has lessened over the years. Take it one day at time. I still have my gc's toys in my home.  I know that they have now outgrown them but they hold so many memories and they are comforting to have around.


Wishing you all the best.

jsf

This triangulation was also common in my family of origin. For me, Karpman triangle dynamics helped to explain the behavior. BPD mother was in "victim" perspective. She seemed to perceive people as being "on her side" or "not her side". If she had conflict with one person- she'd then attempt to gain others to her side.

It's good that you see the potential harm in this kind of behavior. One reason there's conflict with your 20 year old D is that your D is an adult and likely less compliant with her aunt, or also has become the one your sister "projects" to.

You can't control what your sister does but your family- you need to maintain the close connections and boundaries on your sister's intrusion. The best "defense" is not about your sister, it's your family bonds.

For example, my BPD mother didn't like my father's sister and would say things about her sometimes. However, had a good relationship with my aunt. What was said didn't make a difference.

My BPD mother was able to create distance between family members and me when she was angry at me. For me, this felt devastating. The solution though is to maintain strong bonds with the people in your family.

Since your sister is interfering between you, your wife, and your D there needs to be some firm boundaries. For us, they included- if we visited, or spoke to BPD mother on the phone- it was in the presence of others. This boundary helped to protect my own children from triangulation. As adult children, they decided their own.

Each of you- your wife, your D and you, can decide to not participate in conversations where your sister is trianguating.

In that situation, I'd listen to your sister and thank her for the concerns.  Regardless if she's right or wrong, let her be heard and feel appreciated.  Then you can just dismiss it or whatever you want to do.

Meanwhile, I would speak to my daughter and let her know that your sister is struggling and a little distance would probably be best for everyone.  Explain that your sister gets overly emotional at times and takes small things personally.  If it's necessary, ask your daughter to apologize "for hurting her aunt's feelings." 

Not what was said, not all the other stuff, but a simple, "I'm so sorry if what I said hurt your feelings.  I would never want that or do anything like that intentionally"

This reminder that things change over time is so helpful.  It's one of the bizarre features of this condition.  It's crazy-making but it also a reason to act in accordance with your values and know that the weather will change.

My sibling is now getting into the same kind of conflicts with my daughter (in her 20s) that she gets into with others.  And she's trying to get in the middle of the mother-daughter relationship -- wanting to tell me her side of the story, wanting to tell me how wrong my daughter is, wanting me to tell her what my daughter has said -- and all the while exaggerating and misleading and making herself the victim.  I'm not going for it, but it definitely feels like a whole new level of challenge.

It is possible that your wife has a different relationship with each child. The relationship is a combination of your wife and each daughter as individuals. Your daughters, at their ages, adult and almost adult, will navigate their own relationship with their mother. I think what they need from you most is to be secure that you love them, even if their relationship with her is challenging.

I think your younger D is clear about what she wants. She wants structure, routines, and a peaceful place to study with you, and still, a relationship with her mother.

My BPD mother liked to do fun things- like go to movies, museums, shows, go out to lunch. So one idea is for your D to have space with you, a place she can study, sleep, have regular meals, and some time to herself. She can then have some "fun" time with her mother together when she takes study breaks, and if she wants to stay over- that's her choice.

Hi Singapore, all great questions and I'm glad you got the laptop set up.  Please keep asking the tough stuff!


How do we convince anyone to do anything that they don't want to do?  That might sound discouraging, but if your wife is against therapy then it will be very hard to "convince" her of anything. 

A different tactic would be to talk about your own needs and ask your wife to problem solve.  Asking something like, "I feel unseen and neglected in this relationship and I can't keep doing this.  What can we do differently?"

When I told my ex wife that we needed therapy, she refused.  When I asked her what we could do a week later, she suggested therapy.  So I found a few therapists and she refused them all.  I asked her, which therapist would you like to see?  She said she'd think about it (which means it will never happen).  So I told our daughter, who my wife listens to, that there was a Christian therapist only a few miles from where my ex wife was staying.  Suggest that to your mom.  She did and it was suddenly a great idea.

My point here is that you can't fight this in conventional ways because we're talking about mental illness.  Your wife thinks differently and responds accordingly.


Again, you're thinking about this logically how you'd feel if a physician gave you a diagnosis.  So many here hoped for the exact same thing (myself included), if we get a diagnosis, then we can fix this and live happily ever after.  That probably won't be your wife's reality though and even when diagnosed, there's a chance she rejects or ignores it.  In other cases here on this site, the diagnosed person uses it as a sword..."You know I'm crazy and it's not my fault.  You should have known better to ask me that!"

All in all, the diagnosis doesn't mean a whole lot.  It's a starting point only.


My ex wife is nor officially diagnosed either (other than chronic depression), while my oldest daughter is (BPD/bi polar).  Their behavior is identical though.  And when I talk about my ex, I tell others that she's struggling mentally and thinks differently at times due to stress and anxiety.  People accept that whether they know about BPD or not.


When arguing with a BPD, it's so easy to think about facts and defend them.  But they're thinking emotionally, not logically, and their feelings control their emotions so much more than the average person.  Your wife is thinking, "Today is horrible and I'm struggling, why can't you see that?"  Yet she says, "You never do anything for me." 

Notice it's two completely different things, because she couldn't possibly admit what she was actually feeling.  So she deflects expecting sympathy, even though she just attacked you verbally.  You don't respond with sympathy because you're not a mind-reader, and now she's thinking, "The nerve of him to talk to me that way when he knows how bad I'm hurting inside."

Can you follow this at all?  It's so critically important for BPD relationships.

When your wife says something out of the ordinary, or when she's in "one of those moods", she's speaking emotionally from mental illness.  The way through these situations is not to justify, defend, or argue, it's to ignore her words completely and focus on her emotions.  If she's panicking, calm her down.  If she's sad, cheer her up.  If she's angry, help her relax with affirming words and body language.

This might sound familiar since you did it with your kids when they were infants.  It's basically the exact same thing since all you have to go on is the emotions present.  If the baby cries, you try to make it laugh.


There's nothing wrong with you.  You love your wife and you want things to work out, even though you don't fully understand what's happening or what to do.  We've all been there and did the exact same thing.

On this site, we talk about our BPD loved ones often.  But as you're here for a little while, you're going to realize that this site is more about you and your mental stability while dealing with a tough relationship.  Nobody here can "fix" your wife, but we can help you learn tools that makes communication a lot less painful.  Over time, it makes a tremendous difference as you learn to "speak her language"....which is about focusing on emotions instead of logic and reason.

I hope that helps my friend!