Hi Jazz,

In my opinion, swatting a phone wouldn't qualify as violence, even if your husband shouldn't have done it.

The way I see the situation is probably one of, "He can dish it out but can't take it" type of exchange.  In other words, it seems that your husband readily criticizes, teases, or provokes you, such as by wearing a shirt with a message he knows will irritate you, but he becomes defensive/upset/angry when he is critiziced or otherwised challenged in return (i.e. when you take a photo of it).  He knows you know you were challenging him, and he reacted in an aggressive way, by swatting away your phone.  If he hadn't swatted, he might have screamed at you or demanded you hand over to him your property, just to show you who's boss.  You know your husband well and were sure that your small gesture of "retaliation" would be met with a negative reaction, right? 

This hypocrisy, insecurity, and/or a lack of empathy is often seen in bullies.  I've experienced it many times.  "He can dish it out but can't take it" sums it up.  And why is that?  I think it's because he's wired to be grumpy/negative/mean-spirited most of the time.  And yet, he thinks he's the only one who's allowed to be that way, while he DEMANDS that you be perfect, forgiving, tolerant of his meanness, always putting his needs first.  Not only that, but when he's in a really bad mood, he wants to dump it on you, belittle you and probably blame you too, in a vain attempt to make himself feel better.  That's when you need to realize it's not your fault, and to extricate youself from the scene as best as possible.

Now, sometimes I have felt incredible urges to "dish it out," just like my disordered roommates do to me sometimes.  I'm human, I have bad days and sour moods sometimes too.  But I find that the second I complain the tiniest bit, push back a little, act they way they do on a daily basis, I know exactly what happens:  it backfires.  All I do is incite them to up the ante and punish me in return.  So I have to be careful, so as not to unleash a WWIII.  I've found that rather than "dishing it back" as I've wanted to, I'm better off if I just gray rock.  In your situation, I might take a step back, and say to myself, it's just a shirt.  He's doing this just to rankle me, but I won't dignify the provocation with a reaction.  I'm going to gray rock in the hopes that he gets bored, changes his mind and changes his clothes.  If I'm lucky the shirt will get lost in the laundry, or maybe it will just stay in the bottom of the laundry bin where it belongs.

If your wife is a danger to herself or others, you dial 9-1-1.  Then the authorities can get her the help that she needs.

How to evaluate:

- Any form of self-harm/mutilation is a reason to call
- Any violence towards you, the kids, or herself
- Any statements similar to "I want to hurt myself, I wish I were dead, I don't want to be alive anymore"
- Any statements of "I wish <xyz> was dead, I want to kill them, they don't deserve to be alive anymore"
- Any major abuse of alcohol, drugs, etc. is also a reason to call
- Any evidence of reckless driving could also be a reason (especially with the kids in the car)

I hope that helps.

How do you know it's getting to be dangerous? I don't think there's a way to know for sure.

However, I do agree with doing what you can to maintain your own sanity and well being. It's possible you are the 100% parent as it is.

In my own experience, my father was the 100% parent regardless. BPD mother was so disordered, she couldn't do it. She truly struggled.

However, he remained legally competent- we could not intervene or force mental health care on her, even as much as we wanted her to get help.

So I do get your dilemma. But your well being matters too, and also to the kids.

You're probably not going to like my answer, but what you describe is not love...it's manipulation.

Dating coaches teach people to date using manipulative tactics.  Neil Strauss wrote an excellent book on it called "The Game".  In a nutshell, it showed that anyone could hook up with specific behaviors and tactics, but the relationships never lasted and the guys were even more miserable than before.  The reason is because they were trying to "game love" instead of simply building a relationship off of love, trust, and mutual understanding.  In the end it left everyone broken, depressed, and alone.

The dating advice stuff from the "hook-up gurus" is absolute garbage because it misses on the one thing that actually matters in a relationship- reciprocal love.


In another post you mentioned that things were going good with your wife at home until she drank your juice.  When you questioned her, she exploded with anger.  And I remember thinking to myself, "Your wife is home and things are good for the first time in months.  Why question her over juice boundaries?  It's the simplest compromise- she's happy and you go buy more juice once you run out."

In other words, this shouldn't have been "a condition" of being present.  She was thirsty.


With BPD, there's almost never a full recovery.  There is no "remissive state."  BPDs can get a better handle on their emotions and learn to take a moment before losing it, but the mental illness is still there and a successful relationship is still going to come back to mutual love, understanding, etc.

Here's the thing- as long as you view this as "her affecting you", it's a lost battle.  She's sick, she's suffering, and her emotions are all over the place.  When you showed love and compassion, things were instantly better.  When you showed ironclad boundaries over something that doesn't matter at all (juice), things instantly fell apart.

Can you see what I'm saying here?  You can have ego or your wife.  But you probably can't have both.

I understand the concern for the kids- just also be careful to not reinforce her interpersonal dilemmas with a lot of attention to them. I know you are keeping a watch for danger.

How do I effectively evaluate how dangerous a situation is?

Clearly this is a situation where W needs professional help, not my help. 

Also - clearly this is already a situation where there is a reasonable chance of self-harm or a suicide attempt - because this is a route she has taken before.  Normally, I might consider these as inevitable, but right now children are in the picture. 

It feels like I need to evaluate the course that is least stressful for me and the kids in both the short and long term.  How would I feel if I completely stayed out of it and let the worst happen and trusted the long-term outcome was for the best vs how would I feel if I let myself become emotionally invested now to ease the short-term drama some knowing that it sets me up for more long-term drama?

My T suggests I just focus as hard as I can on self-care and emotionally detaching from this situation.  I agree with that.  The problem is with kids, W's drama impacts my ability for self-care because it shifts the burden of parenting 100% to me.  The reality, though, is that burden is already mostly on me. 

The other thing to consider is that W is 50, and this same situation seems to be a common and nearly constant theme with her since she was a teenager.  I'd be a fool to think that completely emotionally detaching would allow her to process on her own and "learn".   The goal here would be to save my emotional energy, and maybe she would learn to not lean on me in the future with such issues. 

Perhaps the best course for me right now is when she approaches me with her issues to say something like:

"those are very intense and serious emotions and you need to work through them with someone who is trained to help.  I can help you find resources if you would like."

Also - I think it's a good idea to not discuss her relationship issues with her, or offer her advice- or try to soothe her with this.

This puts your attention on her issues. It's reinforcing to her. It makes her issue your issue.

What this other woman does and what the other woman's GF does has nothing to do with you.

Your wife still wants to do this, and I don't think you can control that. It's possible that the best outcome would be that she finds that her experiences are a big disappointment.

Not because these relationships are disappointing in themselves but because the common factor in any relationship she has is going to be her own issues with BPD. They won't be a solution for her because, no external solution exists.

Try to resist the urge to get involved unless a situation is truly dangerous.

Superdaddy -

I agree.  This cycle is how W views the world.  If there isn't conflict, emotions aren't intense enough, and it isn't meaningful.  Reminds me of the times when she is upset with me about not being upset enough.  She really isn't seeking out a stable loving relationship with a woman - she is seeking out the excitement and drama.

Wendy - I am doing my best to stay out of this one.  There are a couple complicating factors here:  1) the suicidal stuff and 2) the kids.

The suicidal stuff is very tricky as the way laws work, calling 911 helps nothing unless she is willing to ask for help.  In the past, she has talked about suicide and I have called 911, and when police/paramedics/crisis response come W says she wasn't serious or denies things, and they tell me there is nothing they can do.  I have looked at getting her involuntarily evaluated for in-patient care, but the information I got tells me this is not an easy route - I can describe what has happened, but certain criteria have to be met first before she can be taken for evaluation.  Me saying that she is severely depressed and mentioning suicide is not enough.  And if she were admitted for evaluation, she could still "put on a show" and then they can only hold her for 24 hours.  If we didn't have kids, I'd be willing to extract myself completely and let it hit the fan, but with kids there are other things to consider.  The best thing would be if others (such as her T) could persuade her to go in-patient or an IOP program.  I do feel somewhat of an obligation, not just as a spouse or friend, but as caring human, to try and persuade her into more intensive therapy.  Right now I am trying to help her see this is part of a pattern that she can choose to change without saying "I told you so". 

Hi Jazz, I don't think there's a solid case for him being violent or potentially violent.

I think he could sense your contempt for the shirt and for him. Taking the photo to remind you of who he is could be seen as crossing a boundary. It's his body and his shirt, and even if it's got a message that you think is obnoxious- he still can choose to wear what he wants.

One could say his motive was to stop the picture, not to hurt you. That he swatted it- yes but possibly he was trying to stop you from taking the picture, tried to grab it or just push it away.

Even though you are entitled to your feelings, you have chosen to stay and live with him. I think it will make things easier on you if you "pick your battles". This isn't for him but for your own peace, wherever it's possible.

Hi Max- IMHO- this is her problem and also her lesson to learn. Sometimes natural consequences are the best way to learn. It's your wife who wanted to explore the idea of open marriage and same sex dating and guess what? ( as predicted) she didn't find herself in a community of perfect people, who never have issues or drama, and it isn't the perfect remedy for her issues.

Because there isn't such thing as a community of pefect people with no drama. All groups of humans are varied.

And there's no such thing as the perfect external solution for your wife's discontent.

IMHO, stay out of this one - this is not your problem to solve. This doesn't have to be your crisis. If you step in to manage your wife's feelings- she won't learn from it.

 I hope your wife doesn't become suicidal but if this were the case- the approach is still the same for any time someone is like this- call 911, get her to medical care.