Hi SuperDaddy,

I just had an idea for your situation: tell your wife that you feel compelled to move out (or that she has to move out) and that you will live in separate flats if she does not get her outbursts under control within a certain period of time (I don't know how long you could put up with it).

I also suspect that a physical separation will trigger her massively. With my partner, simply refusing to even try living together in the same flat is enough. When he is in a dysregulated state, he keeps bringing up the subject and makes it clear to me that he can see that I am not interested in growing together and having a “proper” relationship.

At the same time, unfortunately, there is no sign of ‘growth’ or ‘development’ on his part.
I could imagine, SuperDaddy, that in a case like yours, self-protection takes precedence.
The question is whether a physical separation would lead to a total breakdown of the relationship for her.

But the fact that you are raising the issue here shows that it seems to be weighing heavily on your mind. How do you generally feel about living with her? How often do her outbursts occur and how long do you dwell on them each time it happens?

I have read all the posts here about validation and the suggestions for setting boundaries, and I can only say from my own experience that it doesn't work for my nervous system – even though I don't live with him. Validating his extreme emotions at a moment when he is not only yelling at me but also hurting me verbally in the worst possible way feels like betraying myself. All I can do is politely and objectively point out that this behaviour is unacceptable to me and that he now has the chance to calm down, or I will leave until he has calmed down. I always have to leave. He cannot calm down in my presence. Having two flats is a blessing.

When you're ready to dig deeper into the whys and wherefors of these complicated relationship triangles (victim, persecutor, rescuer) you can research the Karpman Triangle (and this general triangulation topic too) which can explain a lot of what you're experiencing.

What a wonderfully written and thoughtful post.  I really needed this, however long ago it was. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

Hi mitochondrium ,


The way you interact is certainly very important, and it is what will help your partner to gain some self-control by not feeding into his drama. However, due to the lack of major consequences, his behavior can get worse over time, like a growing monster. When that happens, the only thing that will put a limit on your partner's behavior is the fear of a major consequence that they ultimately want to avoid. And that must be an objective loss, such as the loss of child custody or being put in jail. If you used the police threat 3 times in 8 years, that seems enough to remind him of the possible consequences, which could affect him in many ways. He could lose his job, he could be forced to stay away from you for many months, or he could sleep in jail with other felons. I'm guessing he can't avoid thinking about those possibilities when he snaps and gets angry.

Likewise, if your partner goes through deep pain after you move away for a long period and you have made it clear that your withdrawal was due to their aggressive behavior, then they will fear this from happening again, so they will avoid behaviors that are clearly going to make you move away again.

But a separation takes a lot of work and time, and it may be hard for them to get the message right. On the other hand, the threat of calling police is much easier to understand and can be done effortlessly.

I'm convinced that not living together is my only choice, but unfortunately the expectation is that this will be catastrophic for her, making her mental health much worse, just like it happened 2 years ago.

Hi Mom,

I have a mantra which precedes my exposure to a loved one with BPD:  It's not time to worry yet.  In other words, I try not to worry about things that haven't even happened.  An example might be getting a biopsy--I'll tell myself, it's not time to worry yet; I'll worry only when I hear the word malignant.  Now that's easier said than done, especially when it comes to BPD behaviors, but when I repeat the mantra, it does feel comforting.  The mantra doesn't mean I refuse to make plans and or face reality.  It just means I try not to worry about things I have no control over until they are actually happening.

To apply it to you and son, when your son complains that his utilities might be cut off, you could invoke the mantra, because the utilities haven't even been cut off yet.  From a place of calmness, you could ask him what he thinks his options are to deal with the situation.  In the moment, he might be all riled up and won't be able to think straight.  But if you are reassuring (you're smart, you'll figure something out, you've done so in the past), he might surprise you.  When he has calmed down, he might say, he could call the utility and negotiate a partial and/or late payment, and try to get a refund on any late fee.  He might sell something he's no longer using.  He might work overtime.  He might borrow money from a friend.  He might ask his employer for an advance.  He might look for a roommate to share expenses.  He might become a part-time Uber driver.  He might pet-sit for friends on the weekend for extra money.  In my experience with a loved one with BPD, when given extra time and space to calm down and figure things out, she has surprised me with her creative solutions to problems.

Anyway, it sounds like you are on the right track in focusing on managing your own anxiety.  It sounds like your son needs a calming influence, not someone who feeds his dysregulated emotions.  Plus, you deserve to enjoy some peace too.

Hi again Win,

Well I haven't been in your situation and probably can't anticipate all the issues, but I can say a few things about my BPD stepdaughter when she was a young adult which might provide some perspective.

First off, I'm pretty sure my stepdaughter told others that she had an abusive childhood and that her family was toxic, even if the fact patterns didn't line up.  Thus my guess is that your daughter is probably making you out to be some sort of uncaring/abusive/mean/controlling/narcissistic monster to her boyfriend.  Right now she probably views her boyfriend as a knight in shining armor (all white), while you are the wicked witch (all black).  I guess it's unsurprising to me that her boyfriend hasn't spoken openly with you about upcoming plans.  He might be avoiding you, and your daughter might compel him to stay away from you, just so she can maintain the running narrative.  If the boyfriend were to spend any significant time with you, he might catch your daughter in a lie!  My guess is, the more insecure your daughter is in the relationship, the less you'll see her husband, because she won't want him to learn the truth and start to doubt her . . .

Secondly, I believe that my BPD stepdaughter's disordered behaviors prevented her from learning basic "adulting" skills.  People around her were walking on eggshells.  Her parents tended to jump in, fix things and take care of her, either to "rescue" her, or just make her life easier, in the name of keeping her stable and avoiding meltdowns.  With so much "interference," my stepdaughter didn't face the natural consequences of her own decisions, and her incentives were all mixed up.  It could be that your daughter's boyfriend is currently playing that "fixer/savior" role.

In my stepdaughter's case, she spent most of her early adult life in a state of avoidance.  She felt she couldn't handle life, and as a result, she stayed in her room for weeks on end, a self-imposed prison sentence.  I think she was so afraid of messing up that she avoided life altogether.  She didn't view everyday mistakes as opportunities to learn, but rather as personal utter failures.  Her negative thinking meant catastrophizing every little setback, making her believe her life was over.

Unfortunately, in practice what starts to happen with this negative thinking is that pwBPD miss out on some formative life experiences.  In the case of my stepdaughter, she missed out on getting some experience with entry-level jobs.  She wasn't responsible for any bills, not even her phone.  She didn't take care of her car, her dad did.  She didn't arrange to get her own transponder, her dad got it for her.  She didn't pay for her own parking tickets.  She didn't make her own doctors' appointments.  She didn't apply for internships.  She didn't file her taxes.  She didn't buy groceries or prepare meals (she only got take-out).  She didn't volunteer.  When she broke her phone, she cried for a new one, and her dad got it for her.  When she tried to attend college, she didn't participate in any extracurricular activities.  She didn't pursue any hobbies (unless scrolling social media and watching TV count as hobbies).  She didn't perform any chores whatsoever in the household.  She didn't even hang up her own bath towel to dry.  Though she signed a lease, she didn't know its terms because her dad took care of the rent and utilities payments.  Etc., etc.  Over time, a few things happen:  She lacks a sense of identity.  She feels overwhelmed by life.  She lacks core competencies.  She doesn't feel responsible for anything.  She doesn't feel needed, a part of a team, a part of a family, part of a friend group.  She doesn't feel important.  She doesn't feel knowledgeable, capable or powerful.  She doesn't have a daily routine involving any combination of work/study/volunteerism.  She doesn't have a network of friends, and she doesn't get invited to do fun things either.  She can't figure out how to solve problems.  She feels overly dependent and starts to resent it.  Without the rigid structure of high school, she feels rudderless, and stuck at that age, while her peers seem to move effortlessly into the adulting stage.  At the end of the day, she is utterly clueless about the administrative side of life:  how much things cost, how to pay a bill, what a lease is, what insurance is, how credit cards work, how to call to make an inquiry or appointment, how to do a job interview.  She starts to be paralyzed by fear--fear of the future, fear of being exposed for the fraud she thinks she is.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that because you have probably been taking care of the financial and administrative side of your adult daughter's life, she might be absolutely clueless about economic realities.  Right now, she doesn't worry one bit, because she's never had to make economic choices under a constrained budget, let alone go without.  You do all the worrying and bill paying for her!  Did your daughter pay any part of tuition, even if it were a nominal amount, such as 5%?  My guess is, probably not.  The thing is, over time, there's a real risk that your daughter will RESENT you for making her feel needy/behind/incompetent.  And when economic reality hits her, the blow will feel overwhelming.  Guess who she'll blame for that?

Now, I understand that many parents want to support their kids, financially and logistically, to make their kids' lives easier, mostly so they can get a great education and enjoy life while they are still young.  But I think that with BPD, there are some disordered thinking patterns which lead kids not to appreciate the support, and they don't sieze the opportunities afforded them, because their priorities are all mixed up.  They're hijacked by emotional dysregulation, which gets in the way of learning to plan, manage their time effectively, solve problems, overcome obstacles and resolve conflicts.  My opinion is, they need extra practice, extra patience, and lots and lots of encouragement.  But the incentives have to be right.  Because when you're paying for everything, it doesn't matter one bit that you want your daughter to get a part-time job.  Why on earth would she do that, when she gets everything she needs from you and her boyfriend?  She'll only get a part-time job when she needs to get one.  She's not going to do it because she feels obligated or indebted to you.  You see, she thinks YOU owe HER.

Good luck.

 CC and Pook, thanks once again. I've read and reread your posts. It seems the reinforcement helps me move away from  faulty beliefs about my son's illness and my ineffective responses to it. I plan on read through the Library here.
I'm focusingmore on myself and I dug out a book that I bought years ago on anxiety. I've been practicing a skill mentioned. My mind is in a constant swirl of what if worry thoughts. This does nothing but exasperate my anxiety and leaves me feeling miserable.  So when a bad thought pops up, I tell myself I will thing aboutit later that day.  I can let the thought go and move on. I feel like I still am caring for my son without torturing myself with worries. .

Also, no, I have not told my daughter that I'd be financially supporting the child. To the contrary, when she dropped the news on me, I verbalized that I wouldn't. Probably not the best way to respond when hearing your daughter is pregnant, but since she's not supporting herself and hasn't even lived with me for close to a year, I thought it was best that I make it clear that this news would not make me backtrack on previous statements I made to her concerning moving in with her bf. You see, I've been paying for an apartment that she has not inhabited at all in months. Not a single night, and not even for a few hours here and there, even when her bf has been working and not home. From the word go after she met him, she found herself at his place all the time, and they've essentially been living together for months, without her moving any of her own furniture in. I don't know how the subject of her "formally" moving in with him happened, but she told me a couple months ago that it was going to happen when her lease ends and I didn't argue it since there's really nothing I could do about the fact that she was over there all the time and I was paying for an apartment to be vacant. I even tried to create the "rule" that she'd at least be in her apartment during her school week, and whatever she did on the weekends was her business. Not even an attempt to comply. So anyway, I made it clear two months ago that she can do whatever she wants to do when the lease ends, but I wouldn't be allocating money I had been paying for a rental into his household. She didn't flinch at that, and when I later was with the two of them in early December and I brought up her move into his place, he acknowledged that it was happening, didn't give me any indication that he was expecting it to be a paid living arrangement, and I didn't offer any payment. Now she's pregnant and I've heard nothing from him at all, but she tells me that he's  "excited" about the baby and that his parents know and are supportive.

I've never felt more compelled to journal about a relationship than this present moment.  I thought I would be able to figure this one out until I made an impulse purchase for Jackson Mackenzie's "Psychopath Free". I received it promptly in the mail the following day and opened up to read my exact situation in a published book. It has been a surreal experience.  On one hand I'm laughing out loud when recalling all the manipulation this person exerted, while simultaneously obsessing over how anyone could behave this way.

I'm in the stage where I'm even questioning if this person does a single thing which does not involve manipulation. They said they were an alcoholic (I'm just over 90 days sober myself) yet confessed to me of smoking marijuana the entire time they claimed to have 90 days. Alcoholics would be the perfect targets, after all. Forgiving, compassionate, easily manipulated by shame and guilt. Taking inventory and apologizing at once if we've done any harm.

The mirroring, the sexual mirroring, the triangulation. The victimization of themselves in any and all facets - "this ex raped me, my ex fiance was crazy, my ex is belligerent and angry and sends me all these crazy texts". I'm seriously even doubting if this person had cancer at this point. It would not surprise me if they adopted dogs just because dogs do what they're told.

When I say everything (and I mean absolutely everything) Jackson wrote of was parallel to what I've just experienced for the last two months, it might even be an understatement.  She told her fan club everything. She paraded me around her job and posted me on instagram while she rubbed her ex's nose in it. All of her friends saw this arrogance in real time and had never been happier for her newfound happiness.

There were of course many red flags I ignored from the start because I didn't want a relationship in early sobriety. The sex was good because she mirrored exactly what I wanted. She showed up every day and brought me things and told me I was beautiful. Not long into it, crisis mode was happening nearly every week or every few days. Whether it was pets, her ex boyfriend, a UTI, trips to the hospital, major depressive episodes.  I knew her charm and wit was off from the start. On our very first date I recall asking her "Why are you so nice to me? Something is off." To her replying.. hush, hush, it is you that is the issue! Why can't you just allow people to be nice to you? Accept my idealization and flattery at once! And I did.

There were many times where I acknowledged to myself and to friends how manipulative she was, and she was so good that I allowed it to carry on.  I didn't know what a psychopath was, or borderline was, or really any truly sick pathological person was until now. Sure I've dated covert narcissists before, which is really the only reason I got out when I did.. But it doesn't change the fact that I feel like this right now.

It was not even a day into our new relationship being official that she reposted her ex on social media. Then I was made out to be a psycho for my reaction.. to which I so willingly apologized.  She of course ran back to the very person she had be defaming and cuckolding this entire time. He willingly accepts his fate.  I've even tried to help him but he's too deep in and hates me, which is exactly what the abuser wants. I even left out the fact that he has somehow agreed to coparent dogs with this person. The unique and special friendship which she uses to manipulate any and all incoming targets i'd imagine. 

We continued having sex and I managed to set a boundary she didn't completely annihilate. Then the big guns came out.. More sex, my obvious kryptonite at this point in the game. Telling me she loves me after spending the week with her ex who was now gone. I went no contact after that, started seeing things through her lens and realized that none of it was true. Phone calls started, another crisis happened, then I canceled our plans and blocked her everywhere I could.  She will eventually show up at my gym, and do her best to tell everyone there how crazy I am. Just like she did at my AA homegroup with the girls she met who thought she was so charming and innocent.

I simply hate the fact that this is not who I am, and I want to love and experience a healthy relationship for once in my life. But all I really feel is.. anger, paranoia, sadness, grief, and a deep desire to turn my brain off. Thank god I've learned some coping mechanisms besides sex and drugs at this point in my life.

Thank you for all the thougtful responses and insights. I value this space so much. I understand that I did the wrong thing with my email and it was classic JADE. I guess her reaction should have been expected. To clarify about the boyfriend, I never expected him to open his finances up to me, just as I wouldn't open mine to him. I just thought it would start things off on as "normal" a foot if he/they addressed this situation with me in some way, like he and my daughter did with his dad and step mom. I'm certain it's not him who is avoiding the contact with me and he's just following my daughter's lead based on what she's telling him. He doesn't know that she has this disorder and from the outside looking in I'm sure he thinks my relationship with my daughter is pretty normal. I'm paying for school and supporting her in other ways that a lot parents do. What he doesn't know is why she even had an apartment rather than living with me. So at this point with her being pregnant, if I were him, I'd likely assume that the situation will eventually roll out in a way where I'll be stepping in offering additional financial assistance since I have the means, and I'd be helping with a new baby like his parents do. I just know I can't do any of that without enabling my daughter and putting myself in a situation of being held emotionally hostage. I've been expressing to my daughter for some time that she should get a part time job. Nonetheless she has remained jobless but I ended up buying into her rationalization that now that she's in school full time, M-F, all day, that it wasn't really necessary for her to have one. After all, the program is a year long, ending next September, and I had every intention of putting a tight timeline on how long I'd continue to pay certain necessary expenses like car insurance once she graduated and was unquestionably employable. I have no problem helping my daughter and I actually want to do nice things for her that enhance her life, but not at the expense of her not helping herself. Now this. I feel like it would be counterproductive for me to pull the financial support she currently gets from me so long as she remains in school, but I also feel that given her condition, she should finally get herself a part time job before I'd even consider lending any additional support that might be needed. I think that would be the responsible thing to do for herself and her child, and it would help out her boyfriend and THEIR household. I just don't know what to do and not do with this allover situation. There are no guarantees that she and her bf will even stay together throughout this pregnancy let alone long thereafter, and it's very important to me that she starts exercising some financial accountability and begins earning some of her own money as soon as possible.