Hi PullMyHairOut?, and welcome to the family!

That's an interesting story. Thanks for sharing. I laughed at the part in which she says you made her this way and that you're the one who needs treatment. But I completely understand you. My wife also pointed back to me when I talked about her treatment, but now she does not do that anymore. What changed is that she hit a wall.

We are living apart, and she wants to come back, but I told her it won't happen unless she learns to control herself, and DBT is perfect for that. So now she is fully invested in getting better. Your wife does not need a diagnosis, even because DBT is helpful for anyone with problems controlling their emotions.

In 2024, when you both were reconciling, I think you had the perfect opportunity to bring up this suggestion. And after you had already reconciled but were not living together, you could have told her something on those lines: "I love you, and I don't want us to break up ever again. Therefore, I don't want to move back into our home until it is safe. I will wait for you to start some treatment targeting your aggressiveness and emotional control issues, and I'll wait to see significant improvement from that. But don't worry because I want to help you out in every step. I want us to do this together." Then, as she positively responds to that, you would show her a list of therapists that do DBT in your area. And if she requests you to do therapy as well, accept it.

By the way, according to the EOS theory, the reason why she talks so much about your affair is because this is a topic that puts her in an "emergency situation," and by acting out on it, she releases endogenous opioids. Once she is not trying to follow this maladaptive behavior anymore (to stimulate her EOS) and uses a different approach, the past will be "left behind."

Ok, I'll try to answer my own question.

Yes, communication is important. By constantly suppressing ourselves from speaking to them (as an attempt to avoid their outburst), we end up having collateral effects that will tend to damage the relationship.

I agree with all of you that it is usually impossible to counteract a dysregulated state (as hiiumaa said), and over time they may develop a hyper-triggering state in which it is impossible not to trigger them (as Rowdy said). However, if we take action to break the cycle before irreversible damage takes place, then the interaction can completely shift, giving new hope for the relationship.

The way you can break the cycle is to remove yourself from the interaction in a way that makes the interaction conditional (e.g., you will not interact if you feel like they are being disrespectful in any manner). In my case, I was being persecuted all day long, so I had to stop living with her. For those that don't work from home and have a bigger house, they may manage to mostly avoid their partner when needed while still living together. Though communication should still exist.

For those who already live apart and still get pushed away even when using the tools (such as hiiumaa), the situation is harder. Because the pwBPD is in a more difficult state. But it doesn't mean that it would be impossible to relate to that person. It's just harder.

It is important that we have the emotional strength and resilience needed to take the lead in the relationship. Then, for being admired as their strong figure, we may influence them and guide the pwBPD into treatment. But all of that are traits that those with codependency will have difficulty expressing. Allowing the pwBPD to take the lead in the relationship is a doomer.

In my case, moving apart did break the cycle. Over the 5 days after moving out, she still did some minor attacks on me, and I have listed some of them below:

- "I already apologized for that, because I'm not like you (Arrogant)."
- "So stop doing NONSENSE!"
- "You don't like anyone, you only like yourself."
- "What's your problem? Have you always been this arrogant?"

I know those were very minor offenses, but they came unexpectedly. After so much time taking it, I got to a point of zero tolerance. But I feel like she is still getting used to the new setting, in which I can effectively ignore the drama, and it just moves me away. So I think she is lowering the tone and being "domesticated."

The fact that she got the diagnosis recently is also helpful, because now she understands that her close relationships would not be chaotic if she didn't have that disorder. She told me that her mother keeps triggering her, but she isn't reacting. She said that she is treating her mom with dear.

She has already scheduled the first DBT session, and we will try a medication that targets the EOS. According to one study, it seems like this is the only medication that is effective to help with BPD symptoms. It's not a controlled study, but for me it's a great finding.

And hiiumaa ...

When he says he wanted you to drive into his place "IMMEDIATELY", I think this was actually an EOS emergency. And since you didn't fix it for him, he medicated himself with alcohol. When you begin to understand how the underactive EOS makes them act in those ways, it begins to make sense.

He probably feels like it's unfair to keep yourself away every time he is "medicating himself". I'd rather change the naming of this boundary so that he understands that it's about the aggressiveness that emerges from a drunk state and not just the drinking itself.

Hope you don't mind but I've relocated this thread to another board. It should receive a better response at "Romantic Relationship | Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup". Here is the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3061595.0

I have temporarily placed a ">" in the title so that other moderators will know that it has been moved and we don't move it again.

Each of the boards has a unique culture. Descriptions of which members/topics best fit each board are contained in the "DIRECTORY".  Additionally, the charter of each board is contained in the "WHO SHOULD POST ON THIS BOARD?" thread that is pinned at the top of each board.


If you think this move should be reconsidered, please send me a personal message, via "Pvt mail". I'm happy to work with you to get it to the board that makes sense for all.

I've been an opponent of appeasing and enabling- and a supporter of boundaries. One aspect of my parents' relationship that was puzzling to me was why did my father tolerate her behavior? It seemed to me that whatever she did, he just went along with it.

I gained more perspective on this in the later years of her life as I am the relative who was most involved with her elder care. (with boundaries still)

Emotionally, she seemed to be in constant turmoil, inside but to her, it appeared as a crisis- or needs, or a solution, external to her. However, by the time a reactive plan was placed, she'd be focused on something else. This was similar to how she'd seemingly always been- it was needing some new thing, some new "identity" or focus. These were external "reasons" for her emotions-  something besides her own feelings. We might react, to fix the issue- but it wasn't the solution.

Where this paralleled my situation with her was being involved with her care in her elder years. Her medical issues and emotional ones were addressed appropriately but it seemed she was frequently unsettled by something. Sometimes it was better to not get into a conflicting discussion with her. What appeared to me as my father being passive/appeasing now also sometimes may have been seeing that "this too shall pass".

You've also experienced times of crisis where your wife does something that seem intolerable. Yet, you also have a lot on your plate- you have kids, you are supporting the family and to respond with boundaries will elicit a response from your wife that you don't really wish to deal with. I think you've also experienced that if you look at these as individual events, they don't last very long and the "solution" doesn't either. The larger pattern- the series of external solutions that don't solve the issues is the result of her emotions.

My take on her latest interest is that this is one more of these "solutions" that also will pass in time. Whatever her issue is with the marriage, to her, must be something external. She thinks maybe it's because she'd rather be with a woman so she goes on a dating site. Here, she gains attention, interest, and this helps bolster her self esteem. There's the luster of a new interest. You see how short lived that was- this person isn't doing what she wants either.

There's a secondary gain to this. You react and your focus is on her. Now there's another conflict, crisis, and you are drawn into it. Now, the attention is on her and her feelings.

While my stance remains with boundaries and not enabling- another approach is to just let this pan out and see what happens. Discussing this may not be effective for you. If she could see your point of view she wouldn't have done it. You aren't "giving her permission" if you don't argue about it with her. You can simply say your wish is for monogamy, you don't want an open marriage but you aren't going to decide for her what she's going to do and then, not get into it with her more. 

It's very possible that this too shall pass. She will find out soon enough, if not already, that no person is perfect. It's also possible that she realizes that she is mainly attracted to women and if that's true, there's not much you can do about that.

A decent therapist balances their case load with clients who are easier to treat and limits the number of overwhelming clients like ones with BPD so the the therapist does not burn out. Many therapists refuse to treat people with BPD. The problem with clients with BPD is they often go back and forth between liking and hating the therapist just like what occurs in close relationships that the person with BPD has. I would be suspicious of a therapist who only takes clients with BPD as the therapist could be using the clients to deal with their own struggles to manage their emotions. When I hired my last therapist, I asked her some questions about her own life. I wanted a therapist who was happily married, a good parent to her children, and around my age. She was the best therapist I ever had and did not project her own problems onto me.

I don't know any statistics but years ago it was often said that therapists with BPD patients often needed their own therapist.  PwBPD are not just trying patients, they're the most trying patients.

*is NOT going to change their perspective*

“But you know, we can't accept everything. There are things that are completely unacceptable, such as cheating or doing something that is dangerous for the kids. Is it possible to reframe anything that we don't accept/approve in a way that won't trigger them? Should we just shut up for a while and wait for our negative emotion to disappear before talking?“

Hi SuperDaddy. No, this is a bad move IMO. As you mentioned, I was discarded. There were behaviours that I wanted to discuss with my wife but didn’t, because I knew it would trigger her. Maybe if I had a discussion with her then the outcome would have been different….. who knows.

What I will say from my own personal experience and other peoples accounts on here, is that changing your approach after being in a relationship for a significant amount of time is going to change their perspective. I would never question her behaviour, or pick an argument or say anything that could trigger her for probably the last decade of our relationship, but if she wanted to start an argument she would bring up any possible slight I’d said against her 20 years ago. If I’d done something she didn’t like even before we were in a relationship that could be brought up. Or if she perceived I looked at her funny, or if I’d breathed out slightly louder than normal, if I’d slightly raised an eyebrow, or rolled my eyes.

Once in that zone, I don’t think there is anything you can do to stop the drama until it has been played out in their own head.

To add- consequences can be of many kinds, not only divorce. One might be that the spouse would be hurt- which could deter someone from infidelity, or the financial aspect of divorce, or effect on family and children, and even the feeling of remorse, low self esteem from the act. There are many reasons people don't violate a monogomy.

One difference is that they choose not to. They don't see this as being "forced" into it. They value it and they don't wish to have consequences for it. They don't do it and don't want their spouse to do it.

Where you are possibly feeling confused is thinking your wanting monogomy in marriage is doing something wrong to your wife- like imposing this on her, not being empathetic to her wanting to explore her orientation rather than knowing your values and boundaries and choice of monogamy. There is nothing wrong with wanting a monogomous marriage.

The consequences at the moment are your feelings. You are feeling uncomfortable with what your wife wants to do. It may be that the choice of consequence becomes tolerating your discomfort rather than have your wife experience consequences of her actions.

You may want some time to weigh pros and cons, but that would be your choice to do so. She's going to do what she chooses. You don't really need to ask her for permission for you to think about this. Your thoughts and feelings are your own.

Likely neither you nor I nor many here ever had a realistic ability to stop the pattern of attacks (outbursts).

While that sinks in, we do have practical tools, communication skills, time-tested strategies, and more to help us address the other person's outbursts, rants and rages.  One approach may work for a while, until it doesn't.  Then other approaches can be included.  And so on.

Some of us have had people with BPD traits (pwBPD) that were relatively mild.  Perhaps described as quiet Borderlines.  They probably are more receptive and responsive to long term therapy.  Our better boundaries and communication skills may help, distance apart may help, meds may help, but the key is focused therapy.  And not just for the other, we too can benefit from therapy.  Partly it is us finding ways to address the issues better but in the final analysis it's in the other's hands as to whether they will face their core issues and truly seek recovery.  (And some therapists don't even try to name a disorder or name the therapy since even that can trigger denial and resistance.)

I hope that's the case because some who arrive here don't stay long enough or return to share their long term outcomes.

Just as all the members here can't be lumped into one neat category, the same goes for our loved ones, none of us have identical personalities.