I have tried this as well...basically agreeing to her statements as a way of getting a point across...sometimes it may have worked only if it was very subtle agreement. many other times I was entrapped, meaning she made certain statements as a means to test my thoughts and when I agreed to her statement all hell broke loose. so I need to watch out for that kind of manipulation all the time.

Hi there,

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your feelings about your daughter's boyfriend.  It seems you would like to know that he's committed to your daughter and will earn enough money to care for your daughter and their child together, right?  Of course you'd want that for your daughter, but do you really expect him to give you an accounting of his earnings and the household budget?  You write that you need to know his "expectations if any he has when it comes to her or anyone else bringing additional money into the household."  I get that, but by the same token, I don't think he should be telling YOU that.  He should be telling your daughter.  Besides, people can be full of good intentions, but fail to deliver because life and work are HARD.  What matters to me aren't intentions as much as results.  And for me, the best predictor of future results is past behavior.  Is the boyfriend capable of holding down a job, gradually increasing his responsibilties and winning promotions?  One look at his resume and you'd have decent information.  The same goes for your daughter.

Maybe you're trying to say, you don't want to be expected to pay for your daughter and grandchild yourself.  But why would your daughter think YOU are going to pay?  Have you told her you would?  The baby is her responsibility, not yours.  She made the choice, she bears the responsibility.  Granted, with BPD, there's usually a heavy dose of entitlement and sky-high expectations of other people.

I guess if I were in your shoes and I were supporting another adult economically, my support would be wholly in kind and conditioned upon using the money as I intended, akin to making a donation to charity, where funds must be used for stated charitable purposes.  By that I mean, if I pay tuition, then my expectation is that she study (and pass).  If she fails or drops out of school, then there's no more money for tuition.  If I pay rent for an apartment, then my expectation is that she live in the apartment.  If she abandons (or trashes) the apartment, then no more rent money.  If I give her some money for utilities, then my expectation is for it to be spent on utilities.  If she's spending the money on illicit drugs, lottery tickets or other nonsense, then no more money for utilities.  If she declares, she's an adult, she wants to drop out of school, abandon her apartment, move in with her boyfriend and have a baby, that is her choice, and it sounds like a deliberate one.  I respect another adult's choices--I really do--provided that they aren't breaking the law, hurting others, or making me live with the consequences.  Your daughter is showing you she doesn't value her old apartment (nor the tuition you paid in all likelihood), and that's OK.  She has something now that she thinks is better, she's exercising her independence, and you don't have to keep paying for things she doesn't want.  You certainly don't have to reward bad behavior, when your daughter is wishing you dead and calling you outrageous profanities, while holding out her hand for additional spending money.  I'm writing this because I wish my family hadn't financed and enabled increasingly destructive and expensive decisions by a loved one with BPD, while my husband and I bore the financial/logistical consequences.  I promise you, the verbal and written abuse only get worse, almost in direct proportion to the demands for more money, for as long as your daughter doesn't seek professional treatment.  I think the potential to make questionable choices grows as the size of her pocketbook increases, right alongside her age and her expectations to do adult things, such as have a baby.  Look, would you be angry if your daughter decided to vacate her apartment and move in with her boyfriend if she were the one responsible for paying the rent?  My guess is that if SHE were paying the rent, she'd find a solution, such as a sublet situation, and then her choice wouldn't bother you as much.  Or maybe you're angry because your daughter got pregnant and is living with a boyfriend before marriage?  I'm not a fan of that choice either, but it's not mine to make, and it's not uncommon, either.  Some would say it's the most economical choice, as a single mom could qualify for more benefits.

Let me guess, you want to pay for your daughter to get DBT treatment, but your daughter doesn't want to do it--she wants to do other things, mainly spend time with her boyfriend.  If you relent and continue to give her money, you're likely enabling and prolonging dysfunciton, in addition to training your daughter to treat you poorly.  My humble opinion is that you should close the parental ATM for the time being.  This isn't to be mean, but to show your daughter sooner rather than later that she needs to live in the "real world."  In the "real world," adults need to face economic realities, which usually mean that parents can't afford to bankroll their adult children forever.  I think you should start now, before you set your daughter's expectations of getting a weekly stipend from you (unless you can afford to see it multiplied and extended for 18 years or so).

In the meantime, I think you have the right idea of waiting until your daughter reaches out and pretends like nothing happened.  I think you might pretend that nothing happened, either.  You could say, you respect your daughters decision to start her family.  Though you're not an ATM, you can provide moral support, given your own experience with pregnancy and early motherhood.  I'd say, try to become a trusted adviser and moral supporter, instead of being a provider/nurturer/ATM.  This might be a good inflection point--your daughter is a full adult now, and you can start treating her like one, not like a dependent little girl.  But if she resumes her abusive behavior, disengage right away and protect yourself.  Try not to reward her bad behavior with money or attention.

Just my two cents.

Hi CC43 ,

Thanks for sharing your experience with boundaries. But again you confirm the same situation that was described by mitochondrium. Your story also indicates that the threat of calling the police is precisely what has put a limit on his behavior. If it wasn't for the police threat, I'm pretty sure they would have brought the door down or done something even more frightening.

Each time another step is done in the direction of abuse, a new limit is set, so then every new escalation will tend to hit that new limit. In other words, once your husband pushes you and nothing happens, he will tend to push you again often in future outbursts. But the threat of calling police is very real, and they know it works easily for women, so the threat alone already forces them to figure out some way of controlling themselves, if they can.

Unfortunately, like I explained earlier, using police is not an option for me. But if I could, I would not hesitate in calling the police to remove her from our house. I would even request a restraining order, just to make sure she didn't return.

Hi Rowdy ,

I think you got confused by what I said. Recognizing that you are the victim of the situation does not mean feeling victimized. It just means to acknowledge that the other person was very unfair or abused you when you didn't deserve it. It's important to recognize the abuse so that you don't put yourself in the same situation again.

The fact that they are victims of the disorder is independent from the fact that you are a victim of their behavior. And you should not attribute your ex's behavior to the disorder. Most people with BPD are abusive in some way, but not all. And definitely there is not a single type of abuse that all abusers do. Each abuser chooses their own abusive behaviors.

If you suffered, and during your pain you felt trapped in a victim mindset, that's another story. This is a complex process that involves many other aspects of your mind. Coming to terms with the past and leaving it behind is okay, but you should do that with the understanding of the violation they made.

"Betrayal is widely considered a violation of human dignity. It is an act that can make a person feel dehumanized and humiliated, fundamentally challenging their self-worth and sense of safety in the world."


If you are emotionally mature and self-sufficient, you should be able to turn down your interest for the person who has been cruel to your heart, betraying you and hurting your feelings badly. That doesn't mean to turn your love off like a light switch, but it does mean to move on and gradually forget about them (over many months or a few years). So yes, it does mean to eventually love off your ex-partner, especially after you stop having contact with them.

Usually when things go bad in a relationship and it gets damaged over many years, by the time the couple splits, they don't love each other anymore. Happened to me twice.

I have a different opinion. It's my understanding that the best outcomes occur when you can keep a child home, and residential should be a last resort. If you live in an area where theres a major hospital with a PHP or IOP, I'd try that before sending my daughter away as long as you are confident that the acute medical issues have been resolved.

I decided to go low contact out of necessity. Tonight I sent her an email and I described my concerns in a very non confrontational way. I told her I loved her, validated that I know she needs me etc. I described how painful it's been to continually be verbally abused and I also expressed that I was hoping she'd get into a DBT program and do the work this time. Shortly thereafter, I was sent a long text spam packed with nothing but vile things about how she wishes me dead and calling me outrageous profanities. She did exactly what I described to her as being a major problem that needed to change. I really have no choice but to let the dust settle and not attempt to engage with her again until she reaches back out and acts like nothing has happened. At this point she's moved out of her apartment and in with the bf. I gave her a decent car, I'm paying for her cosmetology program, and I send her $120 a week. I'm not cutting that off but I also will not increase it or participate in any planning for the baby unless she and her bf get around to approaching me about this pregnancy together, and collectively state their intention to have the baby and coparent in his home. Is that too much to expect? They were already gearing up to formally move her in before the pregnancy happened, but honestly, I didn't see any signs that he was "in love" with my daughter, and I know that she was the one who pushed the relationship. It's what she does. I have no idea how he really even feels about her or what expectations if any he has when it comes to her or anyone else bringing additional money into the household now that a baby is on the way or when it arrives. Aren't these things that anyone in my position would want to know and expect would be "transparent"? Or am I overstepping?

It is not surprising to hear that an ex with Borderline traits has quickly moved on to a new relationship.  Possibly it involves a pattern called "object constancy" which, to some extent, could be compared to "out of sight, out of mind".  (Object constancy was a phrase used in my Custody Evaluator's recommendation report, though he never once named a specific mental health dysfunction.)

A reasonably normal person would not be so quick.  We would need some time for closure, to assess what had happened and adjust (recover) to the new life situation.  That also is why we advise our members to give ourselves time to recover, regain our equilibrium and resist jumping into "rebound" relationships.

Your distress that he didn't consider your feelings by jumping so quickly to another is understandable... and also predictable.  Logic and reasoning you try would typically fail.  Your ex's thinking is prone to lean more toward self-oriented perceptions and thinking, not normalcy such as empathy or compassion.  Over on our Tool & Skills Workshops board we have a topic that discusses why our attempts at JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) so easily fail.

Due to the often-intractable nature of BPD, unless there are children that require continuing contact for parenting communication, many have had to go LC/MC (low contact, medium chill) or even NC (no contact).  There are variable circumstances - including the extent of the BPD traits - that impact such decisions but generally we have to Gift ourselves Closure.

I have to say, I'm with Pook on the futile argument boundary.

Sometimes my spouse will argue with me by shouting and spouting obscenities.  I know when he's riled up, he just won't listen to anything I have to say.  Any attempt to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) only angers him even more.  When he's like this, it's typically from a place of insecurity--he feels I'm not paying enough attention to him, I spend "too much time" with friends while "excluding" him, I've upstaged him in some way--even if the facts don't align with that interpretation.  He'll literally turn red, shout at near fire-alarm decibel levels and get in my face (or call me repeatedly on the phone).  My boundary is not to engage when he's like this.  I basically give him an "adult time out" until he calms down.  I'll drift out of the room if we're at home.  Yes he'll typically follow me, but then I'll drift out again, maybe with a little excuse (I have to use the bathroom).  If he's shouting at me through the bathroom door, I'll emerge and say, I need some fresh air.  Then I'll go outside for a walk, or possibly take a drive if it's late or if the weather is horrible.  Sometimes I go to the library, sometimes to a scenic parking lot.  He hasn't dared to rip the car keys out of my hand, but if he did, I'd probably say, I'm not staying here just to be yelled at, I've heard enough, and I'm not under house arrest, am I?  If he were physical or he started trashing the house, I'd call the police.  Usually he'll slam a door a couple of times (opening it and slamming it shut again for emphasis), but actually, that's not such a bad outcome because he'll isolate in a room for a while, and the shouting will stop.  Then he'll typically put himself to bed early, in protest.  Usually by morning he's still hurt, but he's not flying off the handle anymore.  Then I can try to reassure him and explain:  I know you're upset (that I visited with a friend), but I choose to be with you every day.  I don't visit with friends that often, and not as often as you do.  I support you and your interests, and I expect the same from you.

While it's true it's easier to escape when there are no young children in the house, if I had to, I'd just take the kids with me.  I'd make something up--we're getting ice cream, we're going for a walk, we're going to the library, we're getting the car washed--anything to give my spouse the time and space he needs to calm down.  If I had an important work meeting and I were working from home, I'd likely take the computer to the public library, or perhaps sit in my car, park somewhere convenient and use my phone's hotspot.  I think I did that at one point, when the tension in the household became unbearable.  It gave my spouse some space, and I got some space too, while being able to get some work done.  Finally, sometimes the shouting and swearing will happen when we're travelling in a car together.  There's no easy escape in that situation.  What I've done is the gray rock technique:  sit as still and quiet as a gray rock, and don't engage.  If he takes a break from the shouting tirade to demand a word out of me, I'll say, There's nothing I can say to make it better, is there?  And then I'll go back to being a gray rock.  If he continues to pester me, I'll say, I'm not discussing this while you're driving, you're upset and could get in an accident.  I'll listen when we get to the destination.  And back to the gray rock routine.

OK,

First off, your kid is getting good grades and is generally well behaved, in spite of BPD and learning differences.  That is remarkable considering the circumstances.  But making suicide attempts is very serious.

You might approach finding an intensive therapy program as you would selecting a college:  finding an institution with a strong reputation and a solid track record is important, but at the end of the day, your kid will get out of it what she puts into it.  Just like college, if she doesn't do the work, it's basically worthless--it might even be worse than worthless, because of the huge costs in time and money involved.  Just like college, the programs available might hinge on the financial assistance provided (e.g. insurance coverage vs. tuition assistance/scholarships).  Just like college, staying close to home might be important to your family, and long-distance travel might not be ideal or even economical.  Just like college, your daughter might not be admitted right away, because there is competition for the most coveted slots.  Maybe she can wait for one to open up, or maybe it's better to get treatment sooner at an institution that has availability.

Most of all, for therapy to work, your daughter has to be the one to want to do the work, because therapy IS work.  She needs to feel "ready" to embrace a change.  If she's spending all her time blaming you, she's probably not ready.  If she thinks you're making her do intensive therapy against her will, it probably won't work.  And if she's using therapy as an escape from other life obligations, it's probably not ideal either, especially if the provider is like a "resort."  But if she feels like she's exhausted all other options, and she really wants professional help to have a chance to feel better, then it might be transformative for her.  In addition, follow-up is key.  There's no magic pill for BPD.  Changing one's mindset and behavioral response to stress/perceived threats is tough, and it takes time as well as lots and lots of practice.

On the plus side, your daughter is young, she might really benefit and have more mental plasticity.

Having said all that, anxiety and depression are distinct from, but often comorbid with, BPD.  When you write your daughter has had no other issues, it makes me wonder if she really has BPD.  Has she been diagnosed?  Typically pwBPD have a host of issues, like severe moodiness, misplaced anger, a pattern of fractured relationships, unstable identity/self-image, distress intolerance, a victim mindset, constant blaming of others, intrusive negative thinking patterns, impulsivity, strongly avoidant behaviors and difficulties functioning day-to-day (problems completing schoolwork/keeping a job/solving everyday problems).  Many of these issues seem like typical "teen" behavior, but in a full-grown adult they seem more noticeable and dysfunctional.

Im glad Im not alone in this and I appreciate all of the advice from everyone