I have a list of initial thoughts... longer than I intended.

Spouses with BPD have exceptionally excellent senses, more than just for manipulation and pressuring, cajoling, interrogating, etc.  Likely she will sense that *something* has changed, may sense that you're contemplating a separation or divorce and therefore she may try to race you to filing a divorce case at the court house to claim you're Dr Evil Personified, demand the moon and put you in a defensive posture.  It has happened to others.

One goal should be to seek the best - or "least bad" - temp order, both in your initial filing as well as in the initial court hearing where a temp order will be written.  Why not let whatever happen and have the lawyer "fix" it later?  After all, isn't it just a temporary "temp order"?  Temp order can continue unchanged during the entire divorce case.  (My story... My divorce took two years and though magistrate, lawyers and other connected officials knew there were problems with my lousy temp order, literally no one tried to change it, not until the final decree.)  So think ahead and be proactive with your lawyer in anticipating likely obstructions and proposing solutions well before the court can blunder into decisions difficult to undo.

Focus on the more important issues.  Securing authority in your son's guardianship will probably be top of your list.  Same for your son's various needs and housing.  Ponder how to address sticky scenarios.  For example, if your son resides with you, then stbEx will want to remain in the home since then it will be more likely she will argue to be the one in charge of his care.

Oh, and don't be surprised if any/all your joint accounts are raided.  You would would of course be fair and not withdraw or withhold more than your ethical 50% but pwBPD aren't prone to think in that honorable way.  And after it happens the lawyers would just say "don't worry, we'll fix it when we get to the financial reconciliation at the end of the divorce a year or so down the road"... and then totally forget all about it in the rush to close the case on settlement day.

How the finances are divided, cars retitled, how the home is sold and equity split or residences separated, all those details often aren't finalized until closer to the end of the divorce.  At first, court will focus on the initial basic living & support general framework, then deeper custody issues are wrapped up later.  Last is splitting the assets and debts.  Our lawyers rushed through the last part in what felt like 15 minutes.

This is not the time for our natural inclinations of fairness and being super-fair or super-sharing of information.  Yes, never ever be nasty - behave as though the judge were looking over your shoulder 24/7 but otherwise be aware that your stbEx may be allowed to be outrageous with little or no consequences.  Court will view it as bickering spouses and expect it to reduce after it is over.  Court may not care how mentally disturbed either of you are.  (My court studiously ignored all my ex's antics, probably with that philosophy.)  You won't get credit for behaving well and your spouse won't get much in the way of consequences for behaving poorly.  Sad but generally true.

Also late here. I know of a practice that has an Marsha L adherent program, and the founder is one of maybe 50 Marsha Linehan Board Certified practitioners in the US. They have evening groups but are self-pay only. They will help you submit super bills to your insurance for reimbursement if you have any out of network benefits. As long as you live in a PsyPact state, your son can participate in telehealth with the practice. Message me if you'd like the name and location of the practice.

Not necessarily. Back in 2008 I learned of my wife’s infidelity that had happened a few years earlier. We split up for a few months. During those few months I became close to someone. My wife and I got back together, but there were issues I had with trust, I even doubted the paternity of my youngest child. The feelings I had developed for this other person that was there for me through the breakup escalated, but I eventually got over them. My wife was aware of this, but it actually helped me get over my wife’s infidelity because I realised we are all fallible and can make mistakes.

Do you think knowing this stopped my wife from bringing it up in every argument we had for the next 15 years? No it didn’t. Do you think she used that as an excuse for how she discarded me 15 years later? Yes, of course she did.

I don’t know what exactly you have tried, but is it to the extreme of trying to convince your wife you are in a gay relationship? Because that is quite an extreme thing to do.

At best, the chances of it working are 50/50. My point being, why would you manufacture a situation that has a 50% chance of having the opposite effect desired, and the possibility to completely destroy the relationship through something fabricated out of desperation.

Hi there,

You pose an interesting question.  I have a pwBPD and a pwuNPD in my life, and after several years living in the midst of their high-conflict and chaotic lives, I have a couple of takeaways.

First off, going no contact might be the only way to lessen conflict for a time.  If you read these boards, I think you'll see that the topic of going Low Contact or No Contact is talked about frequently, because people find themselves in a similar situation:  they feel constantly attacked and abused, and no matter what they do, nothing seems to stop the onslaught.  Therefore the only recourse to find peace and regain some sanity in life seems to be going Low Contact or completely No Contact.  The reasons the topic is debated so much include the practical realities of reducing contact (What to do at family gatherings?  What if children are involved?  What if there's a real emergency?), as well as conflicting feelings about love, obligation, responsibility and fear for the pwBPD's very life.

Of course, going no contact isn't feasible with shared living quarters, and people might reach a crisis point where they decide that leaving the home or asking the pwBPD to leave is the only viable option.  That critical juncture might arise because the pwBPD threatens or commits violence, constantly hurls verbal attacks or is otherwise acting in an abusive manner that has become intolerable.  It happens when "walking on eggshells" turns into "walking on landmines."  So yeah, there comes a point where there's an escalation, and the abusive behavior is unrelenting, leading loved ones to take drastic measures.  Why?  Because nothing else has worked.  No matter how much love, reassurances, bail-outs, concessions, therapy and boundary setting there has been, the pwBPD's behavior makes the home intolerable.  If you read these boards you'll see that this sort of situation is precisely the one that drives people here looking for answers!  And it's not as if they aren't trying.  If they are here, my sense is that it's because they really care, and they are trying their hardest, but they are despondent because nothing seems to work.  The thing is, for a relationship to work, both people have to try.  It won't work if you're the only one trying and the pwBPD has given up.  Unfortunately, you can't compensate by trying even harder.  Your partner has to work at it too.  She might be determined to life a life of misery, and she can take you down with her if you let her.  You might have to decide to save yourself and your kids.  You know that analogy of the frog in water that gradually heats up to boiling?  Is your home near the boiling point?

Another takeaway I have is that the pwuNPD in my life is just plain argumentative.  He is wired for conflict.  He finds problems and conflict absolutely everywhere:  with family, (ex)friends, work (until he gets fired), police, people he hires (and fires), neighbors, etc.  It's as if his life revolves around conflict.  He FEEDS off of it.  The police know about him and keep a fat file on him.  I guess it's no surprise he is trained as a lawyer, because he likes arguing!  He likes beating people into submission!  You ask, How to stop being attacked?  My answer is that you basically can't stop an attacker from attacking, short of a restraining order.  That's what it took for the pwuNPD in my life.  But the reality is, it was impossible to completely avoid contact alltogether, because of the children.  At some level there's continued interaction around visitation and child support.  I think he views that as a window of opportunity to "attack" the "enemy" (his ex wife).  My opinion is he will never stop attacking, because it's his nature, he likes it and in a bizarre way, it's working for him.  I think the only way of "tolerating" his hostility and personal attacks is to minimize contact, and communicate only using BIFF--being Brief, Informative, Friendly and Firm.  In other words, don't respond with emotional content, stick to facts (e.g. logistics) and don't give him anything he can criticize or latch onto, let alone debate.  If he's just "spamming" with false accusations, empty threats or snide remarks, then I'd say, delete the spam because it is spam.

But maybe you're thinking, but CC43, my loved one with BPD isn't that vindictive.  She can be loving.  She's just unstable sometimes, and she's a bit paranoid and petulant.  She takes everything the wrong way, and she lashes out with bitterness.  I love her deeply, but right now she sees me as the enemy.  I'd say, yes that can happen, she's painted you all black.  And maybe since she's not living with you right now, she's not benefitting from your constant emotional/moral/logistical/financial support.  She's thrust in the "real world" fending herself, while lacking the emotional fortitude and mental toughness to handle it.  Without really knowing much about your situation, I'd venture a guess that your loved one is feeling more stress right now, and she's taking it out on YOU.  That's very typical with BPD.  The lashings out, passive-aggressive behaviors and hostility usually amp up whenever she's feeling stressed out, because she lacks emotional coping skills.  My take is, her behavior probably has little to do with you at all.  You're just the object of her frustration/fury/anger because you're the closest person to her.  Nobody else would tolerate it.  Does that make sense?

Even before I was separated, I had tried to get counseling for my spouse, then I tried to start counseling for us but she refused so I had sessions for myself.

For whatever reason, probably sheer ignorance of my options, it didn't occur to me to seek counseling for our child.  I recall my attorney commenting, "Courts love counseling" for everyone.  It's been noted here that even if only one parent seeks counseling and the other parent objects, courts will typically consider the best interests of the child and order that it proceed.

I asked because so many arriving here are not aware of their options and for that reason this site shares the information that counseling is beneficial.  We don't know in advance whether someone is aware or not.

If she decides to have a "fling" my response would be something like:

"It's clear now this marriage will no longer work for me and I think we need to find a way of separating so that we can both pursue relationships that are more in line with our desires."

She already knows where I stand on this.  And she already knows it will lead to a breakup. 

In 2015, I was living with my BPD ex, and the single problem we had was her jealousy of stepkids. It was difficult, but I was not in pain or anything like that. I was reading many books on BPD trying to solve a problem, so I registered in multiple forums but opted to participate in private forums instead of here because she was "stalking" me. Later, I got her pregnant, and then again, and gradually things got much worse, and I gradually strayed away from her.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you are judging me as someone who is irresponsible and who causes damage to kids due to bad decisions and perhaps even neglect? Anyway, I don't see a point in defending against this, but I can summarize how hard it was.

Your accomplishments seem very impressive, and I was also doing well in the beginning, when I only had one battler to fight for. I was at a great disadvantage, and she had temporary custody, and I would turn tables. But in 2012 I got betrayed by my own lawyers twice. The first only wanted my money, and the second was advocating in favor of my ex (her work partners said that). As a result, I ended up with a shared custody agreement when I should have gone for full custody since I had serious proof of child abuse. Then in 2019, my second wife began to turn against me, and shortly after, my first ex took advantage of COVID to brainwash the kids and zero out my parenting time. Unfortunately, courts had thousands of cases like that and ignored all of them, so I kept doing what was feasible and within reach only. Now I'm working out my 3rd relationship while still in lots of court processes with my ex's, but I can't win 3 difficult wars at the same time, so I have been focusing on the younger ones, which are doing well. The older ones are out of reach, have been completely brainwashed, and are almost adults now.

Hi maxsterling,

I would advise you to state your boundary firmly in an email - that way you have a proof. And you also get to say everyting you want without circular argument interruprions. You could also write in your email that you could talk about it at set time later. Then you could also record this conversation. Just stay calm and state your boundary firmly again.

Good luck!

Hi DesertDreamer,

Congratulations! You succeeded in having a productive conversation with her and took charge of your own mental health.

Now it's time to try stopping the racing thoughts and then weigh your options. Have you considered the possibility of having a LAT relationship?

"A relationship where both partners are in a committed, romantic partnership but choose to live in separate homes is called a Living Apart Together (LAT) relationship."

Hi Pook075,

I completely understand the part that you had to let go of the hurt, anger, sadness, etc. The part that I did not understand was how you switched from being neutral/indifferent to your ex to "loving her." Talking once every 2-3 months is understandable. What I did not understand is where the love emerged from. But maybe it's because you had many good years together and still have good memories?

Maybe that's because, unlike my ex-wives, your ex didn't do further harm after the separation. I'm assuming she didn't keep trying to rob you of your property, money, and kids?

If I share my story, you'll note it's completely different than yours. The story of both of my ex-wives is very similar, with a gap of 7 years between both divorces. The second ex actually wrote down and copied the steps of the first ex, as she wanted to gain the same advantages.

I was the one who gave up on the relationship, simply because I was not attracted to them anymore and gave up on making it work. However, they got angry that I was having my own life, so they took advantage of the fact that we were still living together, in my inherited property, to apply a scam targeting financial advantages.

Both were physically violent when feeling rejected and made false criminal accusations against me of domestic violence when, in reality, I was the one being spanked. I had some bruises and bites, but DV laws here only serve women. After separation, they kept digging up the old archived false accusations to gain further advantages and for vindictive reasons (because I had built a new family). In total I got acquitted from more than 10 false accusations (because there was no proof and their facts were incoherent), but meanwhile their goal of getting advantages in courts was accomplished, nevertheless. And I got years of unnecessary stress and lost lots of money to lawyers.

They also told endless lies in court to take financial advantage, and both do parental alienation of the kids. I met my first ex more than 10 years later, in court, and she was still angry like a dog, unprovoked. But the real reason that sustains their behavior is that they can use the kids to get financial advantage. It is not because of any negative interaction or reaction of mine. Both still live on my property, for free, despite having no rights. All of that because courts are extremely slow and unreliable. Also, because I am exhausted of it and lack the energy to keep fighting.

I'm guessing you would not love those ex-wives, would you?

If I somehow did love my ex-wives and was "always there for them," then that could be helpful, perhaps with their anger management. Yet, I don't think that would lead to any sort of fair agreement regarding pension, property, or parenting time. Because they are completely self-centered and opportunistic. Actually, shortly after the separation, I tried this. But being close and helpful was only working for their goals, not for mine. So I began to be just diplomatic, but they always wanted more contact and proximity. And that brought me jealousy troubles in my new relationship, understandably.

However, with my current wife, things are different, because she has a better character (not perfect, but not a scammer either). In case we did follow different paths, I don't think she would be my enemy at all.

Currently I'm being cold with her. I was being lovable and helpful, but the past keeps being brought up in our conversations by both of us, and it doesn't go well because both of us have resentments about the past.

If she had left when I asked for it, then we would not have had such bad memories, but instead she turned my life into hell for a long period while refusing to leave. And I don't want to let go of my resentment, because I already have this tendency to let go too easily, but now I need to make sure it never happens again. I kind of feel threatened by the possibility of forgetting the past, bringing her back, and then going through all of it again.

So I want to hold on to the memories until her distorted views are reversed by treatment (if that ever happens). Once I see that her attitude has changed, then I'll be cool with leaving the past behind and giving us (her) a new chance. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I still think we will have a success story. I have a secret, which I can't share here because it could be interpreted as medical guidance, but this is the reason why I still have hope. She will go through two specific drug treatments, which should completely change her mood and compulsions in less than two months. Then DBT will do the rest of the job, unwinding her problematic patterns.

For so many years I have been putting hope in possible ways of dealing with BPD, so I have always been overoptimistic. However, this time my hopes are grounded in BPD scientific studies and case reports.