Hi Pook,

I agree with you, up to a limit.  I know that pwBPD try to "fake" happiness, and they often struggle with it.  I know in the case of the pwBPD in my life, she feels both "exhausted" and "fake" trying to be cheerful.  She's had customer-service-oriented jobs and just can't seem to muster the desired cheerfulness the jobs require.  Her disposition is too tentative, negative--not the happy-go-lucky, nice and helpful type customers prefer.  Thus when she makes on-the-job mistakes, she can't muster the right mix of apologeticness and can-do helpfulness, and she tends to get let go (if she doesn't quit first).

But I think pwBDP are prone to "fail" at being agreeable because their real-world incentives are all mixed up.  What if, in the real world when they lose a job, they are forced to get another one and try again, because they have to make rent?  Practice makes perfect, right?  What if, when they have a meltdown, everyone else goes on with the celebration or vacation without them?  What if the pwBPD was given a "time out" to get herself together, and allowed to rejoin the festivities when she's back to baseline, if she decided to do so?  I just think it's not fair or correct to stop the festivities or bend over backwards to "beg" her to rejoin, just to let her ruin it for everyone else.  If she ruins a vacation once, shame on her.  If I let her ruin vacations again and again, shame on me.  I feel like I've let her ruin things for me too much, and I'm angry at myself for it.  Yeah I was trying to be the "martyr," taking the hit to "save" her.  In hindsight, I was not only misguided, I was an enabler!

Honestly I've come to the point where I've vowed to myself not to cancel any more vacations because of the pwBPD.  As I write this I'm bracing myself for a potential meltdown scenario, given an upcoming family wedding. 

I read once that a good way to break a bad habit--say, smoking--is not to rely solely on willpower, because willpower only lasts so long.  Besides, mental fortitude is not something that pwBPD have in excess.  One recommendation to is to try to replace a bad habit with a healthier one.  The example with smoking is to chew a stick of gum instead.  An example with excess snacking is to drink a cup of water first, or enjoy a fruit or vegetable first.  My sense is the DBT training focuses on this sort of habit substitution, disguised as coping skills.  For example, when a pwBPD feels the urge to shoot off a rage-text, a healthier habit could be to write down thoughts in a journal, or to cuddle with a pet.  I think most adults have their go-to strategies for dealing with stress and conflicts, based on a lifetime of experience.  It's just that I think that pwBPD have a lifetime of distorted "feedback" and have learned, given perverse incentives, maladaptive coping techniques.  I guess that's why I'm a big believer in therapy, which can help identify bad habits, re-train automatic responses and ultimately replace them with better coping skills.

I do agree that it appears this way on the outside, but I believe that often the exact opposite is happening.  The BPD goes to a celebration and sees everyone so happy when they're filled with chaos inside, and that leads to awkwardness as they try to "fake it".  But often it leads to a meltdown because so much stress is built up beforehand or afterwards.

Heading out the door for vacation- OMG.  There were so many trips where I asked my BPD ex and my daughters to go without me.  There'd be so much chaos and dysfunction getting packed, getting in the car, arguing over every little thing...it was like the trip was ruined for me before we even left the driveway.  But once we got there, everyone was happy while I wanted a vacation from the vacation.

Hi again CrimsonBlue,

Oh, so I see she is pregnant. You said she had *almost* tricked you, so I thought she wasn't. Anyways, have you made a decision already?

I understand we feel responsible for a partner in their bad times as well. However, if they already knew of the disorder before getting you engaged, or at least they knew the traits, they should have alerted you about it. Failing to do so is trying to deceive you. Because having a stable relationship is the one most unlikely thing to happen when you have a BPD partner.

Someone with BPD should not live together with an intimate partner nor have kids before they get a handle on their BPD symptoms, at least. First, they should seek to get remission of the symptoms by attending specialized therapy (such as DBT), but that can take many years.

Possibly what went wrong may have been the marriage app, which disrupted your normal cultural process of engagement since your parents didn't know each other so well. The timeline was too short, but anyway this is what usually happens when you find a partner with BPD.

In fact, I met 3 of my 4 long-term partners over the internet, but now I see that through an app it is impossible to find a great female partner who is free of disorders. Because the app only serves women that are having trouble in the real world for some reason. Most of them aren't pretty enough, but when they are, the catch is their mental health.

Having said that, now it comes down to how much you like her and how you feel with her. You said she had made you feel "7 feet tall" in the beginning, but I'm not sure if you should take that into account since you were in the idealization stage of the relationship. Yet, if you really feel like she is the love of your life, then perhaps you could try what I'm doing now: living apart while still maintaining the relationship while waiting for her to seek treatment. Though I'm not sure if that fits your cultural values.

In the case of my current wife, she is way more interesting than all of my previous long-term partners (all of them had psychiatric disorders as well). At almost 6 feet tall, she is the tallest, and yet she has the most delicate body and personality. She is the funniest and most caring one with the kids and stepkids as well. Also, she has the best character (taking aside the stuff she says when dysregulated). Most importantly, she is the only one that really worries about me. In practical terms, this means that behind the disorder hides the love of my life. On top of that, she didn't know she had BPD when I first met her, but she didn't hide from me the little that she already knew about herself.

Today she is here in my place, and everything is going fine, but I'll have to ask her to leave today as we agreed, before anything goes wrong again.

Waiting to know about your outcome.

Thank you CC43 for articulating very well much of what I was trying to convey!

Hi there,

While I tend to dislike the concept of playing dating "games"--there's a popular dating guide book for women titled "The Rules" which echos what you wrote above, I do think there is some truth to the notion that pwBPD display their worst behaviors when they feel "accommodated."  I think that this happens partly because BPD seems to affect close relationships most.  But there's another part of the equation, which I think of as indulgence.  I think there are two aspects to the indulgence, too.  I think the pwBPD feels "secure" enough to "indulge" in her negative thinking and behavioral parterns.  And I think the partner or parent also "indulges" her, by letting her "get away with" such behaviors with little or no adverse consequences.  In essence the partner or parent shields the pwBPD from the natural consequences of her behaviors, and so her "feedback loop" isn't functioning normally, her "incentives" aren't aligned.  For example, if I flew off the handle, shouted (or texted) obscenities to a friend and accused them of being narcissistic, lying abusers, I'm pretty sure that's the last I'd ever hear from that friend for the rest of my life.  But in the case of a pwBPD, the romantic partner or parent "indulges" this behavior, takes the heat and probably turns around and tries to comfort her and win her back!

I'm saying this because I've noticed that the pwBPD in my life seems to be able to turn on and off her behaviors like a switch.  Sure, she is chronically beset by a negative attitude, a victim mindset and pent-up anger.  But it seems to me that she intentionally DECIDES to let it loose sometimes, almost as if she wants to manufacture an "incident."  She is able to show restraint sometimes, such as when she wants something.  But her outbursts seem overly calculated in my opinion, like an act of manipulation.  Just the timing of them is suspect, such as when people close to her are celebrating, or headed out the door for a vacation.  Cue the meltdown.  The only reason she gets attention when she manufactures a meltdown is because other people "accommodate" her, as you call it.  If I had a meltdown right now, I'm certain that nobody would accommodate me. . . if anybody heard me, they'd probably call the police because I'd be making a disturbance and acting totally out of character.

I guess for me it comes down to effort.  I want the pwBPD in my life to go into remission and adopt healthy habits.  I want her to take her therapy seriously, and learn more positive thinking patterns to cope with life's daily stressors.  I want her to not to take every little setback and every little discomfort personally.  I want to help her repair the relationships with other members of her family.  I want her to be able to celebrate with the family at holidays and special events, to feel included and cherished.  I want her to see herself in a more positive light, to appreciate her natural gifts, and I point them out repeatedly whenever she deigns to listen.  But here's the thing:  I can try my hardest, help alleviate stresses for her, tolerate her bad moods, not take her insults personally, to praise all that is good in her.  But what I do won't change anything if she has given up.  She has to want to make positive changes.  I can't change her outlook, she has to do that.  But for as long as she "indulges" in her BPD behaviors and negative thinking, nothing I do can make her feel better.  Maybe all I can do is not "indulge" alongside her, so that she starts to feel the natural consequences of her behavior.  When I indulge her, I get in the way of her learning how the real world works.  And let's face it, to achieve "remission," she needs to be able to operate in the real world at an adult's level, and the real world doesn't indulge in childish behaviors, at least not for very long.

I'll wrap up with another anecdotal observation.  It seems to me that BPD behaviors tend to come to the fore in early adulthood.  My guess is that happens because the pwBPD's dysfunctional behaviors were "accommodated" in the childhood home, maybe even modeled after the behavior of a dysfunctional parent, especially the same-sex parent.  As the pwBPD bumps up against the "real world"--namely in the workplace or at college--she finds out she can't function very well.  She expects the world to be accommodating, and she basically falls apart when she learns it's not.  She feels a deep sense of shame of failure, while at the same time she rages at the world, blaming others for not accommodating her!  Everywhere she looks, her childish expectations aren't being met, and she's overwhelmed and distressed by that.  Typically she retreats to her childhood home or to that of a romantic partner, where she can act like a kid and be taken care of like one, all the while hating her caretakers for making her feel the way she does.  Sound familiar?

If she doesn't completely fall apart, and she's a "high functioning" BPD, she's learned to mask her behavioral tendencies in school/workplace environments and saves her wrath only for "accommodating" parents/romantic partners.

Congratulations on having succeeded in calming her down after 20 minutes.

This seems a bit similar to what my wife had in the first year of our relationship. She would struggle and say things as if she were having a nightmare. When I noticed it, I tried to embrace her, and she partially began to direct it at me, hitting me lightly with punches as if she was trying to defend herself. Then when she got back to reality, she said she was aware that she was not fighting me but couldn't help herself in doing that against me and asked for my forgiveness.

In her case, she was clearly reacting to past traumatic memories. At first, I thought the hallucinations were about her ex-partner who spanked her, but one day while she was sitting and I was standing up, she said she saw her father instead. From there on, it became clear that her big traumas were about her narcissistic father instead. Even today she is afraid of meeting him because he is unstable, so she thinks he could beat her.

Over time, those sleep hallucinations switched to visual/auditory hallucinations, which were minor, intermittent, and happened randomly.

In the case of your wife, I don't think she was "inventing the entire scenario." I think this is completely unconscious, even when the goal is to seek conflict. But in this particular case, I think she is just reacting to childhood trauma and projecting it on you. She needs to discuss her wounds with a professional. My wife opens up about almost everything with me, but with a professional who she trusts, she can go deeper and get better advice.

By the way, my wife developed those hallucinations because of ayahuasca usage (my fault). One year later, a colleague who is also gluten sensitive advised me to try a high-absorption form of B1, which is neuroprotective, so I did. I was only expecting my wife to possibly get better emotional resilience related to the gluten disturbances. However, I accidentally cured her of all auditory and visual hallucinations within a month.

Horselover,

My observations:

1) The study could have biases, but almost all studies point towards a high incidence of remission. It takes long, but it is steady since the rate of relapse is very low (around 10% in this study).

2) Yes, I think that what you say about their actual functioning in the real world is also depicted in that study. It recognizes that their level of functioning remains poor and remains worse than other personality disorders (OPD):


Scores on the Global Assessment of Functioning (GAF) (A) and the Global Social Adjustment (GSA) scale (B)

3) The interpersonal conflict with an intimate partner is a different category not depicted in that study, but I believe it greatly improves with the remission of specific symptoms such as affective instability, intense anger, and efforts to avoid abandonment. Well, that's if their partner has the necessary skills to deal with their disorder and is emotionally healthy.

4) Yes, when they are seeking treatment by themselves, this is better. In my case, I'm the one pursuing the treatments for her, but for some people this is how it needs to happen, at first. That's because many people with BPD have such low self-worth that they don't seek anything for themselves. They might feel defective and incurable. They may also not have money and not want to ask for money for their treatment. They might also have trouble pursuing their goals (including seeking treatment) because of other comorbid disorders, such as ADHD, which affects executive functions.

But once they begin and feel the improvement and feel more self-confident, their self-motivation should gradually arise. That's what I expect for my wife, and I think her ADHD is a good part of what makes her feel incompetent. I disagree that "the treatment won't go anywhere" just because I'm the one pursuing it for her now, because she has been very receptive. I'm not forcing her in any way, just trying to guide her.

5) I also disagree, at this point, that working more on myself "may ultimately change the dynamic" of the relationship. Because after 4 long-term relationships with disordered women, lots of self-help books, dozens of books on BPD, hundreds of conversations with others with BPD loved ones, and some therapy for myself, I feel like I have perfected myself quite a bit. The point is that, essentially, I'm not triggering her, and she does not have fears of abandonment anymore. Yet the real issue is that she unconsciously pursues a conflict-seeking behavior. Proof of that is that today we had many minor points of conflict, and in most cases I was bringing them up, but on no occasion did things escalate. This is because she is not seeking conflict now, so we had a civilized conversation, and I made sure it ended up with hugs and kisses. The conflict-seeking behavior may not be seen in some people with BPD, but it happens with most of them, perhaps more than 80%, and usually turns out to be the drive behind interpersonal conflict.

Please let me know if you still disagree with any of those views. I'm interested in opposing views.

I agree with you here, that when your wife feels she has a "mission," that of looking after her grandson, she probably feels better.  The day with the grandson probably helped solidify her identity as grandma.

Alas, that feeling didn't last very long, as pwBPD have extremely volitale emotions.  Their sense of identity is fragile, so that they don't have a strong sense of self to fall back on, to see them through setbacks or plain boredom.  Your wife became dysregulated again, maybe because she was sad to see her grandson leave, and she "created" something to be upset or scared about.

What's concerning about your post is the delusional aspect.  You say your wife was "terrified" of you and thought you were going to attack her.  Now, it may be that she was inventing the entire scenario, just to incite you to react, in a misguided attempt to get your love and reassurances.  But if she really did believe the delusions, then she might be nearing a crisis point.

My adult BPD stepdaughter would exhibit delusions like this right before a total meltdown.  She thought others were "out to get her," but in a non-specific way.  (It's no surprise to me that she holds a victim mindset, even if she can't point to exactly how she has been victimized.)  Anyway, the temporary breaks with reality were a sure sign of completely falling apart, and she ended up in the hospital.  Now my stepdaughter's case might be different--I think her delusions were brought on by excessive marijuana use.  But delusions (temporary breaks with reality) are a hallmark of BPD, on the "borderline" of psychosis.  It seems to me that your wife's issues are escalating, even if they were "interrupted" by a couple of happy days with your grandson.  Does that sound accurate?  It seems to me like she might be teetering on the edge of a total meltdown.  Now, that might not be the worst thing, if she ended up getting some professional therapy that she needs.  But I don't know how much therapy can help change someone's negative thinking and behavioral patterns learned over an entire lifetime?

Insecurity always seems to be the next phase from the initial 'love bombing' at the start, when you're both so apparently compatible in every way and there's not a single issue.. then the accusations and suspicions start. It's quite a kick in the teeth when that suddenlt happens.

The problem with the BPD mind is that it isn't open to logic - you can't ever convince them you're not cheating because they simply won't see facts. I got accused of cheating even when I'd spent the whole night sitting with her and she knew where I was.

Defending yourself does no good as it just reinforces their belief and apologies - even though you know you're innocent - do the same thing. In their mind they're right and nothing can change that.

Assuming they can't recognise they have a problem and are prepared to commit to therapy, the only question is how long you're prepared to put up with things. The BPD will never change on their own. We give them more and more chances, but eventually we decide that enough is enough and the relationship is going nowhere.

Thank you so much for your response, I feel surprised that I would receive replies to this post so soon and also feel supported and seen.

Update on what happened lately is that our family went to their home where I went ahead and told their family everything and what the issues have been. I spoke for about an hour telling about the events and anger and outbursts. The focus was primarily on this extreme doubt and how it made me feel. They took it well and so did she and did not deny anything. In the end my wife said she was sorry that I was hurt and asked me what I want to do, do I want to continue or not. She also said that I should not feel constricted by the pregnancy and that we're both fairly young and not in our 40s or 50s that it would be too hard for us to find new partners.
This statement made me feel that has she already moved on. She's giving me a very less resistant path to exit because if I were her and I had realized my mistakes I would have felt really guilty for hurting my partner and would weep and apologize in the front of the whole world.


Some replies-

Yes, SuperDaddy, it was an arranged marriage where we found each other over a matrimony app. Parents got involved when we both felt right which was about 3 months in the relationship and we got married in about 6 months from the date of our first ever date. Also, you mentioned that your answer is no and that I would not be able to develop a thicker skin if nothing changed. This hits hard because I have gathered some knowledge around BPD and I thought I would be able to understand her better and where is she might be coming from.

Nevertheless, it has become complicated because of the pregnancy and she's 9 weeks in right now. My family has suggested that we can take care of the child according to the laws and that I can also even co-parent which is all complicated but continuing a life like this with her would be almost an injustice to my boundaries and livelihood.

The thing is she is a fantastic, kind and a very smart person. Before the first ever episode I felt that she had more empathy than any human being I ever met. But after going through a rollercoaster in the first 4 months of my marriage, I never saw that person again, it was just unpredictable moods and left me feeling anxious about every move I made in my home.

Mutt suggested me to consider: Could you live like this if nothing changed? My answer is - No. It was a super hard life of constantly feeling tied and a feeling of not being able to express myself freely.

Pook075 nails it perfectly about how feelings are valid and can't be "proved wrong" and it is my who will have to understand the real meaning behind what she says. Also, after really understanding BPD and the base feelings they operate with - constant fear of abandonment, a part me of me feels I should try again.

At the end I feel in the middle where on one side - I loved her and married her and then discovered that our conflicts happened because of an underlying disorder, so I should be with her.
On the other side - I should save myself and not live a constricted life.