I think we should apologize for feelings and facts.  If I did something wrong, I'll say I'm wrong.  Or if I hurt my ex's feelings, I will apologize for her feeling upset and state that it wasn't my intention to hurt her or upset her.

However, I don't apologize for distorted narratives and nobody should.

In that same moment where you're getting a distorted narrative though, you can apologize for how she's feeling and make it known that you can see her frustration.  That can sometimes end the rant without actually agreeing about anything.

Hi again,

Thanks for the additional information about the living situation.  The way I see it, your wife remains untreated for BPD, and since others (you and her mom) take care of all her needs (financial, housing, childcare, probably more), the situation is "working" for her.  Even if she's miserable, she's resisting therapy.  Since your wife wants to continue with the status quo using both you and her mom to take care of her, she doesn't really have incentive to change.  Further, she keeps you on edge by attacking you, criticizing you and making demands, making it seem like YOU are the problem.  Since you "tolerate" her attacks by not withdrawing attention/support, she's basically incentivized to keep at it.  In her world, it's OK to be petulant, needy, angry and accusatory.  (I know this because the pwBPD in my life lived in a world with upside down incentives--the worse she acted, the more money she got!).  Meanwhile, you're trying absolutely everything to make the situation work.  The thing is, it seems to me like you're the only one trying.  Your wife has to work at it too.

I bet that deep down your wife is ashamed--she admits she shouldn't act the way that she does sometimes--but she just doesn't have the emotional resources to make a positive change.  In her world, the only thing she knows is that acting out gets results.  I bet her mom is as tired of her petulance and irritability as you are!  That's probably why grandma comes off as being "too controlling," because your wife probably isn't helping out enough and treats her mom like a servant while being mean.  Yeah, your wife probably thinks she's tired, and as a new mom, she might well be, but for her, feeling tired feels like the end of the world.  She can't "power through" a hard day and put herself to bed at a resonable hour to get the rest she needs.  She can't make a doctor's appointment to address any physical ailments.  She conflates fatigue with emotional abuse by everyone around her.  So she's whiny and complaining and getting her mom to do mom-stuff, and the situation is probably incredibly tense.  Your wife is tired of that and wants to move back in with you.  Yet she holds YOU responsible, while avoiding taking any responsibility for herself and her behavior.

The issue is, if your wife moves back with you, nothing changes.  I went through a series of moving in/out/in/out/in/out with the pwBPD in my life.  I've literally lost count of the number of moves.  Basically she'd run from her problems by changing up her living situation, while trying to "punish" the offending roommates with her absence.  Little did she know that her roommates were relieved for her to leave.  Sadly, the only way she could realize that the problem was with her (and not with the people who took care of her) was to hit bottom.  For as long as she was living with her caretakers, she thought THEY were the problem.  Only by living in the "real" adult world was she forced to confront reality:  that her neediness, dysfunction, moodiness, accusations and angry outbursts are her problem and responsibility, and she needs therapy to learn to cope.  But for as long as you (and her mom) "enable" her dysfunction, she will continue, because that's all she knows.  Let me guess, she thinks she's victimized by everyone around her, right?  That renders her powerless over her own life.  She doesn't feel responsible.  She thinks everyone else should change, not her.  And she's upset by this, because her expectations of others to cater to her insatiable needs remain unmet.  Does that sound about right?

Hi Pook075 ,

Indeed, the fact that you have good memories make all of the difference. I don't have any good memories of past wives. We didn't ever have any good vacations together, we didn't have any favourite restaurant and we didn't ever do any hobbies together. The good memories I have are about my kids only.

There were a few vacations that I took with my first wife before having kids, but all of them were painful and very restricted because of her jealousy, her self-image problems, and her OCD problems. After having kids, having vacations became impossible. First wife was overly stressed and hostile all the time. The second wife was always pathologically jealous about my stepkids. Third wife is cool but has specific phobias that make it impossible for us to travel.

Hopefully, her BPD treatment will address her anxiety disorders as well. It's obvious to me that she is unconsciously attached to traumatic memories because of her need to feel in an emergency situation, so that her EOS is activated. Specific phobias are easy to treat, but she keeps sabotaging the treatment. Once her EOS is working, she will finally be ready to get cured and then whatever treatment she does will work (such as exposure treatment, hypnotherapy, EMDR, or treatments that use psychedelic drugs).


We explode back? No, I don't do that. I have never messed up things because of my temper. My self-control is extreme, and I have the temperament of a calculator.  At work, in situations of pressure, people have said that the world was ending while I was calm and poundering. But that's because it takes a lot more to get me stressed. And even when stressed I can act peacefully.

It's true that I couldn't express love for my ex-wives since I didn't actually love them (not anymore, at least). But even if I did love them, I'm sure that courts would still be needed to dispute the financial part and parenting time. For instance, with my second ex I have almost always been able to negotiate 50% parenting time, sometimes more, but in courts she always denies it happens and requests the minimum for me, because she wants to have the control and to secure the pension value since she does not quite work.


Well, that's true. But how can I end a relationship without triggering her abandonment fears? I don't think this is possible. Therefore, in situations like mine in which their abandonment fears were triggered, I think the best option is to plan everything in advance and use courts for everything early, before they use courts on you. But unfortunately for someone laid-back like me, who is never angry, it's hard to do that.


Unfortunately, I disagree. Your ex is not evil, but my ex's are, in a way. It did have to be a massive legal battle, and 80% of the court disputes were started by them. People like them do not accept fair agreements, ever.

With my current wife, however, no legal battle will be needed. Even because we won't separate. But if we did divorce, I know that she would want the best for me. That's why I love her, for the person that she is deep inside.


Well, that's true, but the only way I can be safe now is to keep my memories from the recent past active. Otherwise, I'll just end up in the same situation again.


I agree that stating we can't change the past and moving on is good. Also, asking them, "Before I answer, please tell me, what is the purpose of this conversation?" is an excellent approach, because they might not have an answer. However, your suggestion to apologize is usually not an option for me.

If she says that I hurt her feelings, I can certainly apologize for that. But if she says that I didn't buy sufficient food or didn't give her enough freedom, this is a distorted view, and apologizing for that could possibly reinforce the distortion.

For instance, she brought up that I was too controlling about the amount of time our boy sees screens. She accuses me of taking away her rights to use screens with her son. Her narrative is not true, because I always tried to talk it out, but she made a war out of it. So I'm afraid that apologizing to that would feed into her narrative?

And there is no point in this discussion because she is actually aware that screens have made him laten his speech. She does not even use screens in her mom's house.

Do you really think we should apologize for everything, even for the distorted narratives?

Hi and thank you for the idea! You know, I have considered that, and that was our arrangement for the first couple years of marriage. I think it suited us much better than living together (especially in a one bedroom apartment). Perhaps I would do it again, but after looking really deeply inwards, I'm also facing the realization that I just don't feel capable or willing to be her romantic partner. I simply can't sustain the emotional turbulence in a healthy way and still show up lovingly in the relationship. What I hope is that we can still support each other somehow, be family of a sort, be friends, I don't know. Seems like a lot to hope for in my scenario, and I know I can't control how she'll react.

My situation was different, at least partially due to how I responded.  At first I stood for my marriage, but over time I realized that it was over and I could still love her as a person...without the romantic feelings attached.  We were married for 23 years (technically 25 since we were separated for two years waiting for the divorce), plus we dated several years before that.  

So I spent almost my entire adult life caring for this person, being there for her, raising kids together, etc.

Like you, we had good and bad memories...but for me the good far outweighed anything else.  And I didn't know what to do with that, all those vacations and favorite restaurants and hobbies, etc.  Then there were the million inside jokes you have with your partner, the TV shows you loved together, the moments in time that the world changed, etc.  How do you just erase all of that and pretend that it didn't matter?

Ultimately, we divorced without attorneys and agreed to a 50/50 split.  The judge even warned my wife, are you sure you want to do this without counsel and waive your rights?  If your husband doesn't do as he verbally promised, the court will have no recourse.  I thought for sure she'd at least think about it, but she declined and said she trusted me to do what's right.  The judge was perplexed but continued.

Mind you, I've never heard a story like that anywhere from a BPD divorce, they're almost always ugly and drawn out.  To me though, making peace with my ex was more important than money and it's what served our young adult kids the best.  

My experiences are basically impossible according to this site, and it's because BPDs explode, we explode back, and it's scorched earth from there on out.  I fortunately was able to take a different path though and I'm very thankful for it.


A BPDs biggest fear is abandonment or being rejected, so you inadvertently made their worst fears come true.  And in retaliation, it went about as badly as it could have.  That's 99.9% of the stories here so it's not like you did anything wrong.  But at the same time here, there's definitely a lesson for you on marriage #3.  It doesn't have to be scorched Earth and a massive legal battle.

Even if you can't work things out, give her the validation that she needs.  That's what I found with my ex, even though it was clearly over, I could honestly say I love you to her and mean it.  I do want her to have a great life and I do want her to find happiness.  It's just so much easier as friends than enemies.


I've mentioned that religion played a bit part in my journey here.  I've tried to avoid talking about that too much since this is a secular conversation, but there's a theme in the Bible indicating that the past is dead.  I've held onto that because we can't change the past, we can't fix our mistakes, and focusing on it can only bring hardship.

Think about it, even if it's an incredible memory, we think, "Why can't life be like that today?"

When the BPDs in my life bring up the past, I'll speak very briefly on it and apologize that I couldn't meet their needs better back then.  I'll say that I'm not perfect and I've made mistakes, and that I try to learn and grow from those mistakes.  But then I'm finished talking about it because I'm not going to dwell on it or try to relive it.  We literally can't do anything about it, so why focus on it at all?  Just apologize and move on.

Your wife might still bring up the past often, but you have to see above that and steer away from it.  That mindset is so toxic for so many reasons and it brings back trauma.  BPDs are remembering their feelings of the bad stuff, not necessarily what happened or who said what.  So apologize for hurting their feelings and let it rest.


I wish you luck and I hope the medical treatments work out.  Just remember that you have a part to play as well and you have more control than anyone over her mindset.  Help her let go of fears and insecurities by letting her see that you're there for her.  It makes a world of difference long term.

Hi CC43,

Thanks for replying. Yes, she is constantly stressed there in her mom's house because of two reasons. One is that she has trouble dealing with the kids without my help, so she ends up not sleeping enough. The other reason is that her mother, who is too controlling, becomes "obsessed with her and the kids," and that makes her feel anxious/stressed. In both cases, she blames me for not allowing her to return home. I have been with our 2-year-old for many days, more than 50%, but I can't bring the newborn because of breastfeeding, and the baby has digestive problems with formulas.

I can't accept her here because she is being aggressive and hasn't started any treatment yet. So yesterday I said, "I can go over there and take care of the kids while sleeping on the couch while you sleep by yourself in the room, but not here." So she only read the last part, "not here," and cursed at me in uppercase text. However, the next morning she said, "I'm sorry; you really don't attack me, so I should not do that."

I need to have some contact with her because of the kids and money and because I'm trying to promote treatments for her, but yes, it helps to keep the conversations at the minimum needed.

In my view, the disorder forces her to seek conflict to feel better, and I'm the only safe target to do that (like you said), but I'm hoping that over time, if I consistently don't engage and step back, then she might rethink her attitude and become less conditioned to do it.

Currently, she has adopted a posture of "You don't accept me as your wife, so I won't be your girlfriend either." But I haven't disputed this view. I have been just waiting for her to drop the attitude so that we can have some warmth from our interactions again, perhaps.

Though she gets angry every day because she thinks it is selfish of me to not bring her back for at least a weekend to help her feel better. But I don't want to put my peace at risk, and I can't be sure if she would keep her word and return to her mom's after the weekend.

I see that she is feeling rejected, and probably I could soothe her with affection and give some reassurance, but I'm not sure if it is right to be affectionate with her while she isn't being with me. I mean, instead of giving my affection for free, I would like her to deserve it somehow. What do you think? Should I try to just give it unconditionally?

It's a reasonable statement if both people were in agreement and cooperating,  but this isn't the situation. I would make some suggestions but this is something to discuss with an attorney and therapist before saying something.

The "we" are going to do this- so we can both ....There's no "we" in this. If this happens, she doesn't want to end the marriage, she wants an open marriage. You don't. This may seem like a nicer way to make your point -but she's going to react to any statement suggesting the marriage is going to end.

Also, if you end the marriage, it isn't to find another relationship now. Maybe later at some point, but to say that, she's going to hear this from victim perspective. It's not something to talk about at the time.

If she goes through with a fling and you feel you can no longer stay married to her, your next step is to make a plan, find an attorney, get advice and a plan in place- for the main concerns- custody, her being on SSDI, where to stay, the rules about who stays in the family house ( so there's no abandonment issue), how infidelity is handled in your state divorce laws. This doesn't mean you just walk out and disappear or surprise her. At some point this needs to be discussed but there's going to be emotions and drama and it may be best to have this planned out.

Before you say something to her, you also need a safety plan in place for you and the kids, and also know how you would handle an extreme reaction. She may need to be hospitalized for her own safety if she threatens or attempts self harm, or becomes violent with you. You would also need to have your finances secured safely as she could clear out any joint accounts.

Get advice from an attorney and a therapist for when to speak to your wife about your plans and how. This would be an emotional discussion.

Whatever you do say, it's best in "I" terms, and to the point. You don't want to blame or shame her- she won't handle that. It's a straightforward "I can't remain in a marriage that isn't monogamous" type statement and then a statement of your plans (as advised by your attorney).

This is a delicate situation. Being "too nice" in a divorce may not be in your best interest but you are also dealing with a person who is mentally ill enough to have qualified for SSDI. She won't be able to jump into the workforce right away, (if ever), so this may involve having a plan for alimony, job training, possibly housing vouchers to partially cover rent (people on SSDI may qualify for other services). Social services may need to be consulted.The attorney can advise here. If she her reaction leads to her being hospitalized- this may be considered as part of the discharge plans.

My best guess is that your wife is more talk than action and she knows your boundary. It may be that she doesn't go through with her ideas, or backs out during the "date". The choice is in her court now, see what happens, but hold off on saying something about separating unless there's enough to warrant having plans made. Hopefully it won't come to that.

I have a list of initial thoughts... longer than I intended.

Spouses with BPD have exceptionally excellent senses, more than just for manipulation and pressuring, cajoling, interrogating, etc.  Likely she will sense that *something* has changed, may sense that you're contemplating a separation or divorce and therefore she may try to race you to filing a divorce case at the court house to claim you're Dr Evil Personified, demand the moon and put you in a defensive posture.  It has happened to others.

One goal should be to seek the best - or "least bad" - temp order, both in your initial filing as well as in the initial court hearing where a temp order will be written.  Why not let whatever happen and have the lawyer "fix" it later?  After all, isn't it just a temporary "temp order"?  Temp order can continue unchanged during the entire divorce case.  (My story... My divorce took two years and though magistrate, lawyers and other connected officials knew there were problems with my lousy temp order, literally no one tried to change it, not until the final decree.)  So think ahead and be proactive with your lawyer in anticipating likely obstructions and proposing solutions well before the court can blunder into decisions difficult to undo.

Focus on the more important issues.  Securing authority in your son's guardianship will probably be top of your list.  Same for your son's various needs and housing.  Ponder how to address sticky scenarios.  For example, if your son resides with you, then stbEx will want to remain in the home since then it will be more likely she will argue to be the one in charge of his care.

Oh, and don't be surprised if any/all your joint accounts are raided.  You would would of course be fair and not withdraw or withhold more than your ethical 50% but pwBPD aren't prone to think in that honorable way.  And after it happens the lawyers would just say "don't worry, we'll fix it when we get to the financial reconciliation at the end of the divorce a year or so down the road"... and then totally forget all about it in the rush to close the case on settlement day.

How the finances are divided, cars retitled, how the home is sold and equity split or residences separated, all those details often aren't finalized until closer to the end of the divorce.  At first, court will focus on the initial basic living & support general framework, then deeper custody issues are wrapped up later.  Last is splitting the assets and debts.  Our lawyers rushed through the last part in what felt like 15 minutes.

This is not the time for our natural inclinations of fairness and being super-fair or super-sharing of information.  Yes, never ever be nasty - behave as though the judge were looking over your shoulder 24/7 but otherwise be aware that your stbEx may be allowed to be outrageous with little or no consequences.  Court will view it as bickering spouses and expect it to reduce after it is over.  Court may not care how mentally disturbed either of you are.  (My court studiously ignored all my ex's antics, probably with that philosophy.)  You won't get credit for behaving well and your spouse won't get much in the way of consequences for behaving poorly.  Sad but generally true.

Also late here. I know of a practice that has an Marsha L adherent program, and the founder is one of maybe 50 Marsha Linehan Board Certified practitioners in the US. They have evening groups but are self-pay only. They will help you submit super bills to your insurance for reimbursement if you have any out of network benefits. As long as you live in a PsyPact state, your son can participate in telehealth with the practice. Message me if you'd like the name and location of the practice.

Not necessarily. Back in 2008 I learned of my wife’s infidelity that had happened a few years earlier. We split up for a few months. During those few months I became close to someone. My wife and I got back together, but there were issues I had with trust, I even doubted the paternity of my youngest child. The feelings I had developed for this other person that was there for me through the breakup escalated, but I eventually got over them. My wife was aware of this, but it actually helped me get over my wife’s infidelity because I realised we are all fallible and can make mistakes.

Do you think knowing this stopped my wife from bringing it up in every argument we had for the next 15 years? No it didn’t. Do you think she used that as an excuse for how she discarded me 15 years later? Yes, of course she did.

I don’t know what exactly you have tried, but is it to the extreme of trying to convince your wife you are in a gay relationship? Because that is quite an extreme thing to do.

At best, the chances of it working are 50/50. My point being, why would you manufacture a situation that has a 50% chance of having the opposite effect desired, and the possibility to completely destroy the relationship through something fabricated out of desperation.