Thanks for the posts. I’ll say that I had never heard of JADE before coming here. But it sums up perfectly my normal reaction when someone (especially a high-conflict person) attacks me, and the result was typically a heated argument that went in circles, wounding us both. When an argument becomes too emotional and heated, logic doesn’t work!  So I tried to avoid JADE. I quickly saw that the temperature would drop. And then the issue might be addressed later, in smaller chunks, when they calmed down, and I wasn’t taken by a surprise attack seemingly out of nowhere. I also try to HALT—avoid discussion when Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired. A lot comes down to picking the right time and place to address issues. And so I’m grateful to have learned about JADE. Sometimes people need to vent their frustrations, too—they are looking for a friendly ear, not solutions. I’m a fixer and a doer, so I’ve had to learn some restraint sometimes.

Hi again,

If you feel you must acknowledge a text, you might try a short, simple, bland and noncommittal response, something like OK or Got it, the textual equivalent of a nod or uh-huh. Think gray rock—present, but bland and emotionless. But my opinion is if the texts from her are outrageous, it’s better not even to acknowledge it. She might regret sending those texts, and if you don’t acknowledge them, they are more easily forgotten, and later she can pretend that she didn’t hurt you. I’m willing to bet that all the horrible things she says reflect what she thinks about herself, not you, but she’s stuck in victim mode because it’s the only coping mechanism that she’s learned. It’s so much easier to blame others for her problems than to take responsibility for her life. She’s dependent on others and resents them for that.

She may want to get help - who knows? - but wanting it and being prepared to put the effort in are two different things.

pwBPD often say anything to win sympathy, or excuse their behavior... you shouldn't put any stock in it.  That's important here, when you decide what to do: you really have to make sure everything you base your decision on is a fact that you have established, not her, and not a hope, or an assumption.

And here, that is you're dealing with a possibly BPD person, who at times concedes she has an issue, but consistently refuses to do anything about it, and uses baseless excuses to continue to justify that. 

My uBPDxw would occasionally - at the end of really bad, multi-day fights, calmly tell me she knew she was out of line, or knew her behavior was a problem, and was going to work on it.  once she even did start seeing a counselor, only to stop after a couple visits, and announce the counselor said she was "fine" and so of course I was the one with the problem, actually.

it's like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football, and Lucy assuring him that this time she won't actually pull it away.  since it's impossible to know what she's thinking, there's a chance each time that this might be the one time she might not pull it away. 

How many times are you going to try to kick it, before you decide to stop playing the game?

Hi LucyToodle and

It really does sound like you're drowning in family drama... so much stress at every turn. It's too much to juggle, for anyone 

Am I reading correctly that you have two daughters -- any other children?

How does your non-BPD daughter usually interact with your BPDd?

And what I'm most curious about is if you and your H are aligned on if/how each of you interacts with your BPDd? Do you think he has a little more emotional distance from her than you? And how does BPDd respond to him?

...

In high stress family situations where BPD is in the mix, regardless of who has BPD, getting parents on the same page with each other has the potential to remove some stress and to get the family pointed in a more effective direction. (My husband's kids' mom has many BPD traits, and there is definitely more stress in our family when H and I aren't aligned with parenting/stepparenting).

I wonder if here:


he could take over the "reach out to remind her of support" texts, instead of you?

You know your family best, so you'll know if that's feasible or not.

Ultimately, though, I'm thinking that the more you and your H are united on an approach, the "less bad" things might go for your family. Does that seem to fit, or is it off base?

...

Glad you found us;

kells76

Yes you’re right I can’t predict what would happen if she actually got the help. But I’ve seen people online who actually took the years in therapy seriously and actually turn their life’s around so I definitely know it’s possible only if she wants to give it her all. But I know too that she wont give it her all deep down. She actually is now medicated which somewhat has calmed her down from what I’ve seen but that doesn’t fix the underlying issues. She wants to get the help she needs but she always brings up money and how it’s expensive. She’s not wrong but I’ve told her I can always support her with that if she actually wants to get better.

i write to her and she responds with small short answers, i feel as if im being forgotten, wonder if there is new supply

To add: there's some nuance to it that may seem insignificant, but it does matter.  Focus on their thoughts; take the conversation up a level. 

Instead of arguing, "I didn't say X, I said Y" and then her predictably escalating that with something like "Oh, so you're calling me A LIAR now?" focus on her thought process. 

So, "When I said X and you claimed I said Y, what were you thinking?  Did you hear me correctly?  It sounds like you misunderstood me."

Maybe it will help, maybe not.  Maybe it will work sometimes.  But it's better than JADEing, which just goes in circles.

Good luck! 

Another option is the whole "listening with empathy" thing, and reassuring them.

Example: I remember one time BPDxw basically ambushed me as I walked in the door from work "Your mom was very insulting to me today."

Now... this was her pet project, picking fights with my poor mom, and then screeching I was never "on her side" or would never "put her first" if I did anything other than agree my mom was a horrible, mean person who's sole purpose in life was to attack BPDxw.  So, without even knowing the story, I said "oh, I'm sorry, but I love you and nothing my mom did or said could change that."  She said "thank you for reassuring me.  it means a lot."  And then she hugged me and didn't say another word about it.

What did my mom actually do?  I went and looked up BPDxw's phone later.  She didn't respond soon enough to a question BPDxw texted her.  My mom was at work (she was a newspaper editor) and busy, and didn't respond to BPDxw for two hours during the day, while BPDxw was sitting on her A__ at home, lobbing text bombs at people working, and getting enraged when she didn't get a response as soon as she demanded it.

That she was being unreasonable would have been clear as day to every sane person on the planet, but there was ZERO chance I could have ever convinced BPDxw of that.  Sometimes, I knew better than to try.  This was one of those times. 

Thank you so very much for your reply. I was in tears as I read your response; you know my pain and the emotional exhaustion I am experiencing.
You are correct in regard to her lashing out when my attention is on her sister, when we are on vacation, and when I am "on the couch" with my fibromyalgia pain (which is ramped up to a 10 due to the stress of all of these situations.) Those are the times she threatens to harm herself.
She is currently in the victim mode with all of her texts. Claiming we have never loved her, we've never supported her, we just want her to be the "problem child", we have/are abusive to her, we are always mean to her, etc. Lots of "never" and "always" and complete amnesia about how we have supported her, loved her, been there for her. Which again, is a complete "alternate reality" as her brother says.
She tells me she will gladly remove herself from our family, she's not going to waste her time on us, to "go kick rocks", but then she continues to text me.
Another component is that she is married, but they have been separated for 4 years. However, she realized she can't live on her own or take care of herself, so she moved into his apartment. In the past she has cycled between lashing out at me and lashing out at him. It's definitely a rollercoaster for both of us.
My husband thinks I need to respond to her because she will continue to spiral downward if I don't give her something. Even if it's "I need space." I don't know how to do that or what to say. I would prefer to just leave it and not respond, but I understand where he is coming from. Oh how I want to have some peace and respite from the chaos.
Thanks again for your help. :-)

Hold on: you DON'T actually know that.  You're speculating here, and thinking of the possibilities, rather than the reality.  That's what's leading you on here. 

Man, oh man.  Reading this is painful and brings back bad memories.  I am glad I am not with BPDxw anymore.  Just the once or twice a month I get some unhinged text or email about our daughter is more than enough crazy for me. 


You don't have to accept their reality; you can redirect the argument into oblivion, which works sometimes.  Either way, it's better than going in circles for 6 hours.

I know it's hard, because, like you, I'd fall into the trap of wanting to say "OK FINE, YOU ARE TRASH." but you have to remember your better nature here, and maybe mentally tell yourself "This awful person is trying to drag me down to her level, and regardless of what is said or done, I'm not going to let that happen." 

But again: remember your better nature.  One trick that may help is to ask them to clarify their insane comments, or repeat them.  It can really take the wind out of their sails.  Sometimes when they say something for shock value, just asking them to repeat it underscores how absurd they're being, and defuses the situation, as even they realize how ridiculous they sound.

Or if it doesn't end that easy, you can try to direct the conversation into getting them to admit the insane thing they just said, whereupon the whole thing could kinda just end on that note, as the discussion diffuses their anger.

So, for example:

You: "We're going in circles now, and that argument you just made is garbage."
Her: "Oh you think I'm garbage?"
You: "Just a minute.  I said your argument was garbage, and you think that means I think you, yourself are garbage?  How could you make that leap there?  Do you understand the difference between me saying your argument is garbage and saying you are garbage?"

Now, you can get her talking about this, and she won't like it, and may drop the whole thing out of frustration, since she's lost that "righteous anger" and finds herself trying to explain her understanding of the English language (which is boring!), instead of her raging at you for "insulting her," and defuse the whole thing. 

Or she could get frustrated with you trying to pin her thought process down like that, and storm off (which may not be the perfect result, but it does at least temporarily end the argument, and she might calm down by the time she comes back into the room.)  That would sometimes work with BPDxw.

Remember that you're not going to win an argument with someone who has a disordered thought process like that, and perceives the world through that same disorder.  You can however, redirect the anger away from you, or into something more harmless. 

I know as a logical person it can be hard to let go of the fact that they said something not only wrong, but often impossible, or are just projecting their own behavior on you, but you have to let go.  Forget the argument underlying the fight and take another tack here, knowing that there was no merit to it to begin with. 

This won't always work, but it may work sometimes, and that's better than getting into a six+ hour long circular argument every time.