Well, in my experience I can record agreements, but reneging is all too common.  Even if I show written "proof" of the agreement, they'll refuse to look at it ("I don't want to look at that" is the normal response), and if they do deign to look at it, they will rip it up.  My presentation of any proof gets weaponized, and I'm attacked for being a *itch, for daring to show papers/text/emails as evidence.

So I guess my experience with "negotiation" is to assume that reneging will happen.  In practice that means that if I make any grand gestures or investments, I have to view them as a sunk cost.  Alternatively, I might proceed in small steps, and ensure they hold up their end of the agreement before proceeding an additional step.  At this very moment I have a grumpy partner complaining that there's no food in the house, as it's his turn to go to the grocery, and he has put it off.  He doesn't want to go, and he thinks if he complains loudly enough and blames me, I'll relent and go myself.  It happens practically every time it's his turn to go to the grocery.  I'll remind him that I went last week, and he'll deny it.  Then I'll "prove" it to him, pointing out that everything we ate at dinner last night I bought at the market last week.  But proving it to him just makes him madder, because he doesn't want to do the shopping.  Same old, same old.

Hi CC43,

Thanks for your input. I see your strategy saves you from a lot of trouble, but your approach is still tiptoeing around the problem and not actually negotiating it.

I have been recalling the times in which I had successfully negotiated. Usually they happened when she really wanted something from me, and I had been making myself distant for a certain period, so she wanted closeness. Yet, I had to use lots of positive strategies to make the conversation work. But yes, I did negotiate many things over those years. My mistake was that I didn't record the agreements, so some time later she denied having agreed. Now I always record it on video. Otherwise she just says she agrees without actually planning to stick to the agreement.

Today I will negotiate her adherence to the meds. That's not the typical type of negotiation in which I get something out of it, but she does. If the meds are effective in reducing her aggressiveness for one full month, then I would negotiate about accepting her back home. And if she gets into a good mental state and fulfills my conditions, in the very end I also benefit.

Any further suggestions, someone?

Hi there,

You've come to the right place.  If you read some threads I bet you will see some familiar themes, including feeling bombarded by texts, having to provide seemingly unending financial support, and feeling exhausted and stressed out with worry, primed for the next crisis.

Would you mind sharing a few more details about your daughter?  My guess is that she's a young adult, when BPD behaviors typically start to look like dysfunction, often in the early years of college.  Many parents here say that their BPD child was difficult at a younger age, whereas others wonder, what happened to their previously sweet, sensitive and intelligent daughter?  Is your daughter living with you right now?  It sounds to me from your post that she's not.

Let me guess, she's having trouble completing studies.  She can't seem to find a job or hold one down.  And she's lost all her friends.  Her living situations look chaotic.  That would be typical for BPD.  But on the other hand, if she were able to finish a course or two, work a few days here and there at a job, and had just one friend, that would be something.  If she could live independently for a few months, that would be a great sign.  With BPD, thinking in terms of baby steps can be helpful.

Does your daughter have a diagnosis?  That would be something too.  At least you know what you're dealing with.  And if your daughter is a young adult, I think that's good news too, because she's young enough to turn her life around with therapy.

But first, you need to take care of YOU.  You're no good to your daughter if you're completely stressed out and in a FOG of fear, obligation and guilt.  Alas, you can't "fix" your daughter.  You're not to blame for her problems, either, no matter how much she tries to convince you otherwise.  When you understand that, it's easier not to take her barrage of meanness personally.  Since your daughter's thinking is overly negative and blaming, she really needs you to be a calm and rational mom, not a stressed-out, reactive and despairing mom.  How does that sound?

Hi Gray Jay,

I can see how that sort of interaction would be really distressing.  My guess is that most of the accusations are projections.  But at the same time, I can't help but see how it looks like your wife is trying to stir up a fight.  My guess is that something else went on during the trip--maybe you "outshined" her in front of others, or you said something she took as an insult, for example.

You did what I would ordinarily do--try to reassure her of your love and commitment.  My go-to phrase is, I choose to be with you every day.  But sometimes, it looks like the imagination runs absolutely wild.  Sometimes, by "engaging" and giving attention, I think it might "validate" that the pwBPD actually has a point--rather than calming them down, engaging with the topic riles them up.  It's as if the attention is tacit confirmation of offense, that you "dignify" the argument with counter-argument!  I think if my spouse were giving me that sort of crap, ignoring my reassurance, I'd just leave the room.

Here's an example:  my spouse will do that sort of thing, try to "ruin" a nice day or evening, by accusing me of "abandoning" him or being "too nice" to other people.  He'll say it's unfair that I have a social life, that I have friends, that I give his relatives attention, etc., and it's all BALONEY.  He'll become apoplectic if I'm out "late," say until 8:30 or 9 pm one evening every other month, when he's out "late" two or three times a week.

Since it's all nonsense, I usually just let him rage by himself.  I think he knows perfectly well he's being unreasonable, going off the deep end over the equivalent of a sad old pair of underwear.  And yes, it's completely unreasonable to demand proof of purchase from years ago.  I've learned that when arguments get to "ridiculous" levels, there's no point in arguing, so I gray rock instead and slip out of the room.  If he follows me looking for a fight, I'll try it again--stay silent and slip out of the room.  If he's so enraged that he's looking for a fight, the third time, I'll say something like, "I'm not going to fight with you over old underwear," and try to leave again.  I know I'm a little cheeky when I call out the nonsense, but I think it's important, lest he thinks I'm OK with tolerating nonsense.

Then usually what I do is try to repair things the next day, when he has calmed down--usually he has by then.  I'll say, My darling, it's upsetting to me to think that you think I'm cheating on you, that I'm not paying enough attention to you.  But I love you and choose to be with you every day.  Just because I (have an old pair of underwear / get coffee with a girlfriend / come home at 8:30 pm / put on mascara) doesn't mean that I love you any less.  I support you in your life and your family so that you have a happy life, and I expect the same support from you.  If he's belligerent, then I'll say, in my most agreeable voice possible, OK then, if you want to make some changes, then I will do it, to show you my commitment to you.  But if there are changes, we BOTH make them, because we are partners.  I'm an adult, just like you, and I'm not a slave in this relationship.  If you want proof of purchase of all my clothes, then I expect the exact same from you.  If you insist I have a 6 pm curfew, then I expect the exact same for you.  If you want to take anything of mine without asking first, then I can take anything of yours without asking either.  If you insist that I make all meals at a specific time, then I insist that you're home to eat every single meal at the prescribed time.  If you insist on dictating what I wear, then I dictate what you wear too.  If I'm not allowed to look at text messages, then you aren't either.  OK then?  Will that make things better?  And that usually ends the argument, at least for the moment.

I don't know, maybe the way to convey this is I try to be firm but fair (or maybe, equally unfair).  The fair part is really important to me.  Otherwise, I'd just end up resenting my partner, constantly being restricted / controlled / surveilled and put in a position of "proving" my devotion, when it's impossible.

I am really struggling to support my daughter who bombards me with messages, discussing many situations which I try to assist with. I help her financially a lot, I try to do my best. I get accused of not understanding not validating. It’s wearing me down. I struggle with my own issues. I also have many things going on in my life. I work in a stressful environment… I don’t know where to turn anymore. I’m exhausted by it all

Hey GrayJay,

She just wants you to use the gray jay boxer shorts, not the blue. Otherwise she would think you're become the dancing blue guy of "Blue (Da Ba Dee)" by
Eiffel 65 in 1998. Just kidding...

Firstly, congratulations on more than a week of enjoyable companionship.

I don't think you made any serious mistakes, but you counter-argued and tried to defend yourself. Maybe you got upset with her because of her overreaction to the forgotten boxer shorts. That's normal. But as you defended, you invalidated her, and therefore she attacked you back, trying to instill fear of abandonment in you.

It would have been better if you had asked questions to better understand what was going through her mind. After making sure you understood her, you could have let her know you comprehended her thoughts. Next, as an attempt to help her feel better, you could have said those blue boxer shorts didn't mean anything to you, so you wouldn't mind throwing them away if that would make her feel better. Then, you could ask for a minute and grab some scissors to destroy it if she agrees (actions count more than words). If you did that with the right emotion and intention, I'm guessing she would feel touched when seeing you do that for her.

After more than a week of good companionship, my uBPD wife had a very strong reaction last night, and she is still upset today. We had just returned from a trip to another part of the country to visit our daughter and son-in-law, and it all went well. We were tired from travel, but were doing laundry and putting it away when my wife found a single pair of boxer shorts in my clothes drawer which she had never seen before. I wear cotton boxer shorts (gray, blue, and black) from Costco, but this was a similar cut of short but navy blue and made of polyester. It had very fine pin stripes. It's been in my drawer for quite a few years, but to be honest I never wear them (probably did once or twice, but I prefer cotton) and do not remember where I got them. She immediately jumped on me, thinking that this was sexy underwear and I was just waiting for a chance to use them in front of another woman. She just "knows" that I have plans, especially when she is not at home or might have to visit her sick mother who lives far away. She immediately tore into me, and goes from low emotional arousal to 100% in a few seconds. I responded (truthfully) that I did not remember where I got them, but looked at the label and found that the brand is sold at a particular department store nearby which we visit 1-2 times per year. I don't go there alone, and must have bought them along with other items that both of us purchased together, but it may have been at least 5 years ago, probably more. She said I was lying that I didn't remember, and that I'm a psychopath with no moral sense. I tried to tell her that I would never have an affair (and this is true), but she was completely dysregulated, in full amygdala control mode. She said she cannot live with a sneaky, untrustworthy man, and that I have hurt her far too many times; it's best to end the relationship. All of her reading and inquiries into AI say that I am hopeless and that she should protect (save) herself by ending our 34 year marriage.
We went to bed, tired and jet lagged, and here is a portion of our text exchange, lightly edited to remove names, places, and the occasional misspelling. One or two typos remain which I don't know how to correct. I'm sure I JADEed, but I couldn't just ignore her and I tried to calm her down.

Her: I'm starting to feel you look like Epstein. You do all kinds of mischief and then get your on the verge of dying episodes! And keep me hanging around so I can clean up your pee, poop, and vomit! I deserve much better. Your toxic covert behaviors, lying and manipulating and gaslighting behaviors make it unbearable to be around you. The less I am around you the more peace I have!
Me: I'm sorry this upset you so much. It's just a pair of polyester boxer shorts, not cotton like the ones I get from Costco.
Her: The best answer is always "I don't know." How can you not know where you got silly underwear from! I share everything with you. You are as slippery as an eel. Karma is a b****, you know. You will have to pay for all the lies you have told me!
Me: I am not lying. I have many clothes that I don't remember buying. I can see you're very upset and I am very sorry about that, but there's nothing sinister here.
Her: You try to gaslight me into leaving so you become the victim.
Me: I want to stay married to you for the rest of our lives. We have so many good things, and many more good things to look forward to.
Her: Then stop gaslight, lying, and doing shady s***! You have torment way too much already for me to be this awakened and still want to be with you. I am raw and unprotected. And you have no empathy or feelings. Only a persona. May even be a psychopath!  "An immature man won't end a relationship directly. He'll sabotage it or push you to be the one who walks away." (Note: this is a quote from a Facebook page.
Me: Here's the thing, and I know it for certain - I do not want to end the marriage. I do not want you to end the marriage either.  It's as simple as that.
Her: You don't want to end the marriage but you are constantly undermining the marriage. Don't expect me to just flip over and love you again after you have betrayed and hurt me so much. I found out what you were like only after you retired! This is all new to me! I have been an innocent fool. That is why I say I have no guilt or shame. You have been the one misbehaving, doing coercive control, financially abusing me, making a fool of yourself as well as me flirting with old women, hitting on you hyphens (sic) like a pedophile. You have been a deplorable husband. Young women your daughter's age! I don't want to go places with you I want the freedoms of just representing myself. Not someone misbehaving next to me!
Me: We had very enjoyable and successful trips to (place 1) and (place 2). We work together very well as a team in helping our adult children. I have zero desire or intention for separation or divorce. I am not threatening it and I do not want you to initiate it either. I don't know how I can be any clearer than that.

This went on a bit longer, and I eventually ended it by saying "I think we need to end this conversation for tonight. We're going in circles with no resolution. I am committed to you and I am committed to the marriage and that's the truth. To which she replied: I want to go through the "psychopath husband" article with you in the morning. You cover every trait.

What do you think of this? I know I did some JADE, but tried to minimize it. Not giving a response would have been far worse, and me responding in a similar tone to hers would have been disastrous. We did go through the psychopath husband article today and despite the ludicrous nature of the claims, I stayed fairly calm, and she is still upset but not as bad.

Any suggestions, encouragement?  Thanks!

Hi there,

I think my approach is in line with Horselover's.  Generally, I pick my battles.  Some things I just "let go."  And more often than not, if I want something, I have to resign myself to accepting that if I want it, I probably have to do it (or be responsible for it) myself, as reasonable discussions are futile.  Some bills, cleaning and general maintenance tasks fall into this category.  Oftentimes I have to take care of them "on the sly," so as not to trigger my partner and/or adult stepdaughter with BPD.  Because when they are in a mood, everything I do can seem "triggering," wrong, annoying or otherwise.

And then sometimes I use a "strategy."  I've found that hiring a third party to do things seems less triggering than if I myself do them.  An example might be hiring home cleaners.  If the cleaners straighten up a messy room, then it's not "my fault"--the cleaners were merely doing their job.  Another example would be hiring accountants--then the tax bill is from "professionals," not me using TurboTax, which cuts down on arguments over paying "too much" in taxes or me trying to "fudge the numbers."

Fortunately, we don't usually get into arguments over paying the regular bills (utilities, etc.), but if we did, I might try hiring a third-party budgeter who would tell us what we are compelled to pay.  That might cut down on arguments with me about WHAT we owe and WHY we have to pay.  Here's another example:  snow shoveling and leaf pick-up.  My partner will go berserk if I shovel--I think it's because I'm reminding him that he should be shoveling, but he doesn't want to do it in the moment, and I anger him because I make him feel guilty?  Yet when I'm shoveling, it's because I really need to (e.g. to get my car out or clear a path to the door/mailbox).  The solution?  Hire somebody.  End of arguments.  Regarding fall pick-up of leaves, either I do it "on the sly," or I hire somebody.  But if I pick up the leaves myself and my partner sees me, he usually gets angry because he "doesn't want to pick up leaves today."  (Bizarre, right?  I think he should be happy that I'm picking up the leaves!)  I think it's a guilt thing--he knows he's not pulling his weight, and I'm reminding him of that, and then I'm the bad one.  A similar thing happens with home repairs.  Painting?  My partner is happy for me to do it.  Fix anything mechanical/technical--a faulty doorknob, a frozen router--my husband won't let me do it, I'm not "allowed."  Either I do it myself (on the sly), hire someone, or live with broken things around the house.  I hate having broken stuff, by the way.

I think the above strategies are designed to avoid talking through issues.  But some things require conversation.  The ones that do, I wait for a calm moment, when the pwBPD or BPD traits is in a good mood.  I'll usually practice a script with myself beforehand.  I try to keep things really short and to the point--I know I probably only get one minute before potential dysregulation.  I try to avoid any blaming, and typically I'll just offer a solution.  Something along the lines:  We need XYZ, so I'd like to work on that soon.  Do you think you're able to help with (specific ask)?  How about next Saturday?  (Asking for their input on timing helps give them a sense of control I think--and I think they are more inclined to be amenable when a date seems farther off.)  And afterwards we can get a bite to eat (i.e. provide incentive).  When the work is done and they cooperate, I lay on the praise.

As for leaving messes, such as making a mess of clothes in a closet or drawer, I think I've accepted it by dividing up space in the house.  My closet (or my section of the closet)--I get to have it any way I want.  Look, my pwBPD has invaded my space, messed it up, rifled through things more times than I can count.  Usually I'll say after the fact, something like, "I know you like to have privacy in your room, and I do too.  All the adults in this house deserve privacy.  If you need something and you think it's in my bathroom/bedroom/closet/dresser/vanity/car/xyz, please just ask me first, and I'll get it for you, and I'll do the same with you.  OK?  That doesn't mean they'll stop, but if you say that a few times, they know the "rule."  And then when they break it, I think it's easier for you to point it out--Someone has been through my makeup drawer, and I now can't find my tweezers.  I'd appreciate having some privacy.

Can someone please give me more feedback on this?

Does the above list make sense?

I'll post more as soon as I can.  Busy weekend coming up.  Thanks for reading.