I'm focusing on this quote from Pook075 :

"They just want to feel loved and supported in every interaction. They want to feel like they matter and they're seen."

I will paste an interaction below that was a complete game changer. She was again screaming for help, asking to stay here for a weekend because her mother stresses her out. And a single answer I did completely flipped the angry pattern that she had been showing for days.

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Her: HOW ARE WE GOING TO SOLVE THIS??? THIS WOMAN GETS DRUNK AND WANTS TO HOLD MY DAUGHTER
HOW ARE WE GOING TO SOLVE THIS?
Because I'M ABOUT TO DO SOMETHING CRAZY HERE
???
You're going to avoid responsibility, aren't you!

Me: no

Her: Your problem is only seeing me for 30 minutes

Me: I would like to be respected

Her: Respected for what?
Can you be clearer?
"no" what?

Me: The "no" is for that --> You're going to avoid responsibility, aren't you!

---

After this, she immediately cooled off, stopped sending frantic messages, and switched back to being warm with me again, calling me love. Then she began to question that I said days ago that I had said that I was not making any effort, so I answered this:

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Me: You're making a big deal out of nothing. You know very well that I'm moving mountains for you.

Her: But why did you say that then, dear?
You hurt me.
Do you agree that you said it just to hurt me?

Me: No, I didn't mean to hurt you. I'm sorry if it did. But I only said it so you would stop digging up problems we don't have anymore.

Her: Okay.
Soon I will be there, ok?
We can lunch at the bar, if possible.

---

At this point I was resisting allowing her to be here, but since she was now treating me with respect and being humble, I decided to give in. Some time later, I got a bit frustrated in the conversation because she had not scheduled her therapy yet and was eating bread despite being gluten sensitive, so I almost gave a bad response and went back on my decision, but I thought twice and didn't mess it up. Because I reminded myself that she is just needing to feel supported.

She postponed it, so today I got just our boy, and tomorrow she might come, but for only one night.

Hi DesertDreamer,

Yes, a single bedroom makes it harder to have space. On the other hand, having two comfortable bedrooms and a full-time job out of the home would help to have some space (to some degree).

Having temporary distancing from time to time is always helpful for relationships with a BPD partner. So when you end your stay, you might feel like things have improved, but you must know this is temporary.

Are you feeling guilt because you feel responsible for her? Or is it because she has supported you in some form?

And is your grief related to some kind of fear of being lonely or not being able to be in a relationship with someone else that fulfills you as much?

In my first relationship, I had this strong fear. But over time I understood that new partners always come naturally and quickly when you are ready. I also understood that being fulfilled is kind of easy; you just need to invest emotionally in your partner, and you'll be reciprocated.

Hi Zoogman ,

I see how difficult it's being for you. She unconsciously tries to initiate a conflict by stating some discussion that should elicit negative responses from you, and to nullify her attempt, you must respond positively instead. It's not just your words, it's your attitude and feelings expressed.

But it seems like you still love her, do you? Because focusing on this feeling is key. As I'm learning from Pook in other threads, showing that you love her in every interaction and that you are there for her will disarm her and avoid conflicts. And this makes sense to the neurobiology because feeling loved also stimulates the EOS, along with other pathways.

Maybe you are now feeling overwhelmed by negative emotions, but it is possible to have multiple emotions at the same time for a person, and you can try to focus on the one that works for her. Then use that to guide your interactions. Recently I have done that, and I got excellent results, completely disarming my wife.

This is something my ex’s sister has said repeatedly about her, enough is never enough, she is never happy with what she has got.

Now this statement is true for pretty much every aspect of her life. From a relationship point of view, even though we would go out to restaurants quite often, it was never often enough. Not enough holidays. Not enough of me telling her I loved her, even though I’d tell her every day, or that she didn’t feel loved enough.

Not just the relationship. Businesses’ as well. She opened one business, but that wasn’t enough so she wanted another branch of that business. When a shop next door to the first business became vacant, she wanted that as well to open a completely different business. And then a local pub became vacant, she had ideas about taking that on too until I put my foot down.

Then there is stuff. We had a car, a saloon car. A fast car because she likes the thrill of driving fast. Because we have dogs, that wasn’t enough so we needed an estate car (or station wagon for you folks in the US) to carry the dogs in. And because over here we have a weeks sunshine a year, she needed a convertible as well. She also had another convertible classic car I bought her because she thought she deserved it. Not just cars, furniture as well. We lived, I live, in a small two bed semi. We had, I think, about six couches. Not enough room for them so three were in storage but still. I even had to build two extensions on our property just because the amount of furniture she would buy meant we didn’t have the room for it.

Food. The amount of food she would buy and end up throwing away, with refuse bins overflowing every week.

But the reason I’m posting this is the dogs. We have three. The last one we got about 3 months before we split up, but in those three months she was still looking online at adverts for puppies.
We were offered that puppies sister as well but I again put my foot down and said no, which is a good thing as that puppy ended up dying within a year from a heart condition. She rented a house for a year post breakup, and we shared looking after the dogs so we would each have them for half of the week. Then she moved in with her boyfriend, but would still come round three or four times a week to take them out. Then, last December she went about a month without seeing them at all. Since then she has seen them once a week for the last couple of weeks. I’d started to wonder why, as they were one of the most important things in her life. Yesterday I bumped into my brother in law (ex’s sisters husband) and he invited me round for coffee. It cropped up during conversation that she has now gone out and got two more puppies.

So is this behaviour common? And what drives it?

Thanks SuperDaddy,

I don’t know enough to speak to the neurobiology, but what you shared fits my experience of how engagement escalates things rather than resolves them.Things have calmed down, but still fragile. It just seems like now, i have to live without showing feelings (but knowing accusations of being cold, numb, insensitive will come up again and again)..... 

I have accepted the fact that i will never be able fix things.  I just try not to stir the pot or not have things repeat over and over.  When things from the past arise or are said, they hurt, but still learning on how to navigate around and not sit there and defend myself over and over.  She still brings things up from 20 years ago, and I am truthful when i tell her I'm not going to argue the past because i don't recall all the events/discussions at that time, I'm more concerned about our present state.  Usually this will fuel her up, but i am holding the lighter. 

The "joy" for her lately just seems to come from seeing everyone down or hurt.  The other day i came home in a good mood from work and because she saw me in a good mood, immediately the accusations come flying such as the reason i was in a good mood was because i found someone to mess around or having a fling with (she knows this hurts me and i have told her a number of times that these false accusations hurt).  Now I'm finding ways to be clever, such as "Thanks for asking, but my boss just told me about my annual salary increase and my bonus will be coming in first quarter."  You would think someone would apologize or show remorse, but i can probably count on my hand the number of times she has ever apologized to me.

Don't get me wrong, we have had good times and there are days that surprise me, but it has taught me to appreciate the good times that arise, and how to avoid the fuel with the lighter.  There just seems to be some small sparks that i have no control over.  I am committed but probably should be committed.       

Thanks Pook075 for the clarification on apologies.

Sorry ForeverDad for my misunderstanding of your intentions.

Hi CC43,

That's not entirely precise. My wife's mother is not a caretaker in the emotional sense. She is the provider and homeowner but actually makes things worse in the emotional sense because she is very hyperactive and wants to take control over everything about her daughter and grandkids. In my presence, her mother behaves well, but when I'm not present, she becomes hostile, complaining of everything and cursing all of the time. And when she drinks alcohol, she becomes more aggressive. She becomes a nightmare for my wife. With her sister, she isn't having so much trouble. Her mom works 3x3 (3 days working, 3 days resting), so during the 3 days in which her mother is absent, things are easier for her. But not quite easy because of the kids.

Her biggest complaint now is that she can't sleep enough. I have just accepted her to come in today and go back on Sunday. I'll need to cross my fingers so that the plan works.

I think we should apologize for feelings and facts.  If I did something wrong, I'll say I'm wrong.  Or if I hurt my ex's feelings, I will apologize for her feeling upset and state that it wasn't my intention to hurt her or upset her.

However, I don't apologize for distorted narratives and nobody should.

In that same moment where you're getting a distorted narrative though, you can apologize for how she's feeling and make it known that you can see her frustration.  That can sometimes end the rant without actually agreeing about anything.

Hi again,

Thanks for the additional information about the living situation.  The way I see it, your wife remains untreated for BPD, and since others (you and her mom) take care of all her needs (financial, housing, childcare, probably more), the situation is "working" for her.  Even if she's miserable, she's resisting therapy.  Since your wife wants to continue with the status quo using both you and her mom to take care of her, she doesn't really have incentive to change.  Further, she keeps you on edge by attacking you, criticizing you and making demands, making it seem like YOU are the problem.  Since you "tolerate" her attacks by not withdrawing attention/support, she's basically incentivized to keep at it.  In her world, it's OK to be petulant, needy, angry and accusatory.  (I know this because the pwBPD in my life lived in a world with upside down incentives--the worse she acted, the more money she got!).  Meanwhile, you're trying absolutely everything to make the situation work.  The thing is, it seems to me like you're the only one trying.  Your wife has to work at it too.

I bet that deep down your wife is ashamed--she admits she shouldn't act the way that she does sometimes--but she just doesn't have the emotional resources to make a positive change.  In her world, the only thing she knows is that acting out gets results.  I bet her mom is as tired of her petulance and irritability as you are!  That's probably why grandma comes off as being "too controlling," because your wife probably isn't helping out enough and treats her mom like a servant while being mean.  Yeah, your wife probably thinks she's tired, and as a new mom, she might well be, but for her, feeling tired feels like the end of the world.  She can't "power through" a hard day and put herself to bed at a resonable hour to get the rest she needs.  She can't make a doctor's appointment to address any physical ailments.  She conflates fatigue with emotional abuse by everyone around her.  So she's whiny and complaining and getting her mom to do mom-stuff, and the situation is probably incredibly tense.  Your wife is tired of that and wants to move back in with you.  Yet she holds YOU responsible, while avoiding taking any responsibility for herself and her behavior.

The issue is, if your wife moves back with you, nothing changes.  I went through a series of moving in/out/in/out/in/out with the pwBPD in my life.  I've literally lost count of the number of moves.  Basically she'd run from her problems by changing up her living situation, while trying to "punish" the offending roommates with her absence.  Little did she know that her roommates were relieved for her to leave.  Sadly, the only way she could realize that the problem was with her (and not with the people who took care of her) was to hit bottom.  For as long as she was living with her caretakers, she thought THEY were the problem.  Only by living in the "real" adult world was she forced to confront reality:  that her neediness, dysfunction, moodiness, accusations and angry outbursts are her problem and responsibility, and she needs therapy to learn to cope.  But for as long as you (and her mom) "enable" her dysfunction, she will continue, because that's all she knows.  Let me guess, she thinks she's victimized by everyone around her, right?  That renders her powerless over her own life.  She doesn't feel responsible.  She thinks everyone else should change, not her.  And she's upset by this, because her expectations of others to cater to her insatiable needs remain unmet.  Does that sound about right?

Hi Pook075 ,

Indeed, the fact that you have good memories make all of the difference. I don't have any good memories of past wives. We didn't ever have any good vacations together, we didn't have any favourite restaurant and we didn't ever do any hobbies together. The good memories I have are about my kids only.

There were a few vacations that I took with my first wife before having kids, but all of them were painful and very restricted because of her jealousy, her self-image problems, and her OCD problems. After having kids, having vacations became impossible. First wife was overly stressed and hostile all the time. The second wife was always pathologically jealous about my stepkids. Third wife is cool but has specific phobias that make it impossible for us to travel.

Hopefully, her BPD treatment will address her anxiety disorders as well. It's obvious to me that she is unconsciously attached to traumatic memories because of her need to feel in an emergency situation, so that her EOS is activated. Specific phobias are easy to treat, but she keeps sabotaging the treatment. Once her EOS is working, she will finally be ready to get cured and then whatever treatment she does will work (such as exposure treatment, hypnotherapy, EMDR, or treatments that use psychedelic drugs).


We explode back? No, I don't do that. I have never messed up things because of my temper. My self-control is extreme, and I have the temperament of a calculator.  At work, in situations of pressure, people have said that the world was ending while I was calm and poundering. But that's because it takes a lot more to get me stressed. And even when stressed I can act peacefully.

It's true that I couldn't express love for my ex-wives since I didn't actually love them (not anymore, at least). But even if I did love them, I'm sure that courts would still be needed to dispute the financial part and parenting time. For instance, with my second ex I have almost always been able to negotiate 50% parenting time, sometimes more, but in courts she always denies it happens and requests the minimum for me, because she wants to have the control and to secure the pension value since she does not quite work.


Well, that's true. But how can I end a relationship without triggering her abandonment fears? I don't think this is possible. Therefore, in situations like mine in which their abandonment fears were triggered, I think the best option is to plan everything in advance and use courts for everything early, before they use courts on you. But unfortunately for someone laid-back like me, who is never angry, it's hard to do that.


Unfortunately, I disagree. Your ex is not evil, but my ex's are, in a way. It did have to be a massive legal battle, and 80% of the court disputes were started by them. People like them do not accept fair agreements, ever.

With my current wife, however, no legal battle will be needed. Even because we won't separate. But if we did divorce, I know that she would want the best for me. That's why I love her, for the person that she is deep inside.


Well, that's true, but the only way I can be safe now is to keep my memories from the recent past active. Otherwise, I'll just end up in the same situation again.


I agree that stating we can't change the past and moving on is good. Also, asking them, "Before I answer, please tell me, what is the purpose of this conversation?" is an excellent approach, because they might not have an answer. However, your suggestion to apologize is usually not an option for me.

If she says that I hurt her feelings, I can certainly apologize for that. But if she says that I didn't buy sufficient food or didn't give her enough freedom, this is a distorted view, and apologizing for that could possibly reinforce the distortion.

For instance, she brought up that I was too controlling about the amount of time our boy sees screens. She accuses me of taking away her rights to use screens with her son. Her narrative is not true, because I always tried to talk it out, but she made a war out of it. So I'm afraid that apologizing to that would feed into her narrative?

And there is no point in this discussion because she is actually aware that screens have made him laten his speech. She does not even use screens in her mom's house.

Do you really think we should apologize for everything, even for the distorted narratives?

Hi and thank you for the idea! You know, I have considered that, and that was our arrangement for the first couple years of marriage. I think it suited us much better than living together (especially in a one bedroom apartment). Perhaps I would do it again, but after looking really deeply inwards, I'm also facing the realization that I just don't feel capable or willing to be her romantic partner. I simply can't sustain the emotional turbulence in a healthy way and still show up lovingly in the relationship. What I hope is that we can still support each other somehow, be family of a sort, be friends, I don't know. Seems like a lot to hope for in my scenario, and I know I can't control how she'll react.