My adult child has struggled w/mental health issues since a child but as an adult it’s very hard for her. She was told she’ bipolar & on meds for that but she meets the BPD criteria. She’s had medium risk surgery & now everything I ever did wrong or what she felt was wrong has been told to me.  Plus she is majorly depressed. She has been extreme in saying terrible things to me; I have made the mistake of trying to justify or defend my actions of now or her childhood.  I made a mistake in handling my divorcing her father; the children were in the middle. Their dad got custody because the social worker who reported to the judge was his relative.  And I left my emotionally husband who was good to the children but cold to me for a man who showed me warmth & love. I wanted the children but lost them 50 years ago.  My daughter reconciled some when a teen; my son never.  At times she & I are close, I love her, have done financial things for her to make her life nicer though she supports herself well. It was to shows love.  When I’ve asked her to eat w/me or me & boyfriend she’s “dieting.”.  Movies-she’s tired.  Two day trip sightseeing- didn’t enjoy it-suffered it out for me.  Sometimes we are fine & I’m a good mom & person.  But if I’m in a vulnerable state she’ll pounce on me.  Now she is suffering w/physical pain & problems w/recovery everything has come out.  I know I sound like poor me (it does hurt) but my constant worries are what will happen to her, anything I suggest for physical health like calling the surgeon to get answers & help are ignored. I know her childhood after she wasn’t with me wasn’t good, I’m sure it hurt mind. I never wanted to lose them. I feel guilty for the way the divorce went but I couldn’t stay.w/her dad.  My time since this started has been absorbed w/texting her to let her know I love her, I look online for answers & read a book about BPD.  I’m feeling now I shouldn’t.be  paying for mistakes by seeing her suffering.  I feel very guilting for trying to disengage & I know other adult children of divorce who at least have relationships w/bothbparrnts.  Is my divorce the cause of her bad depression?  What can I do?   I want her to be stable & well. 

Yes @Notwendy , you gave an excellent explanation of the effect of authentic versus manipulative threats.

But I have two important observations:

1) This is still quite similar to the push-pull cycle, though initiated by the Non. Here is why:

 - Push: Most likely, the pwBPD won't comply just because you said it. They'll not even make their decision until you actually retreat and they really feel it.

 - Pull: Then, if your intention is to reapproximate as they comply, you'll be ready to pull them back in case they comply. If the opportunity is available and their feelings of love are solid, then they are likely to comply. Then both will repair it together.

So the trick is not to avoid breakups (push-pull) altogether but instead to try to make it work. Most frequently, those instances are damaging rather than constructive. To take the juice from it, you must make sure that (a) you keep in control of your feelings during the process (not just give in to avoid pain) and (b) that every instance of push-pull leads to some kind of meaningful progress (for both, but especially for the pwBPD).

2) The real world is still more complex than the authentic versus manipulative model. The fact that someone did not follow through does not necessarily mean that they didn't mean it. Frequently, the effective change of the pwBPD may lead them to simply change their emotions and make them leave behind the idea of breaking up, because they get deceived by the temporary change. Or they may have lacked resources to follow through (time, money, etc.).

I'm not sure if this is how I update. Anyway,  I've read your responses, experiences and advice.  I went to the section on skills and tools. I watched the validation video, which I love. And.
 I determined not to let my fear over upsetting my son by bringing up a subject that he has rejected strongly the last few times it's come up. I went to his house today to pickup something he borrowed. I had my non threatening approach ready. What he didn't mention was that his kids, my grandkids were there. Which I was happy to see and visit with. My son was bbqing, picking up the kitchen - I tried to bring up neutral topics to see if he might be open to conversation. He was distracted and busy. He gave me a couple quick hugs which was great but I believe this wasn't the time to bring up a possibly upsetting topic.   
I was beating myself up for awhile after that it didn't work out the way I hoped. Maybe I should have brought it up? Then I beat myself up or more honestly grieved that our relationship is so hard. It's not like this with my younger son. With my oldest it feels like there are lots of walls up except when he's in crisis or is feeling alone and scared of abandonment. I was welcomed into his life with his ex wife. He has had a girlfriend for 3 yrs that I've never met. He didn't drop in at Christmas this year which he can do for a bit. Instead he called and text the days before telling me he loved me very much repeatedly. It felt to me that he was troubled because he said it so many times. Maybe some guilt? I totally get people have other places they want to go to. He spent time with his girlfriend's family. He's told me our family isn't normal like hers and that it's my fault he doesn't feel comfortable bringing her to a family gathering. I know my son 's kids 20yrs and 14yrs both feel he's more involved with the girlfriend's kids than being interested in them. It's  sad. This message is long and disjointed. I'm feeling the need to share with people who may be hurting too or confused how to move forward healthfully, or trying hard to be loving and welcoming when you've been told you're hated and blame and then loved . Back to encouraging my son to adding to the tools he has to navigate stressful times....Does this work best face to face rather than on a phone call? He has a very full schedule with work, his kids and girlfriend. 
Thanks
.

Notwendy, very nicely explained, that is exactly what I meant. At that point I couldnt cary on with the relationship as it was any more, him getting in the treatment was a boundary for me and I was taking a risk he would say no and leave and I would have been ok with that too.

However, later my action brought what you are writing about, after some time my bf felt like a victim in retrospective and it took some time for him to get over my action. But I kept firmly enforcing this hard won boundary. Ofcorse almost breaking up is hard for a relationship. Nevertheless I whould have done it again, I could not be with him, if he was not getting treatment.

Hi Pook -

I’m sorry to be late to this thread.  And I’m truly sorry for the pain and confusion this recovered memory has caused you and the fact you went through this traumatic experience.  But yes… I have dealt with forgotten traumas resurfacing.

I hope this doesn’t sound ridiculous, but please bear with me.  In your case it almost feels to me like your “better angels” May be giving you a message of sorts. 

In our collective histories as partners of pwBPD, we tend to make excuse after excuse for some very painful behaviors.  And we have forgiven some pretty unforgivable actions over and over and over. I believe we do this to “protect” whatever lives and love we’ve built with them.  And in that process, we maybe “force” our own pain lower and lower down because otherwise how could we cope?

But then, something reminds us…maybe something happening in our current life?  Someone in our current life is showing signs, little signs maybe?  And you don’t really want to know… I didn’t.  And then there it was, and I couldn’t deny it any longer.  Only the second time it was LOUDER and MEANER. 

So Pook, I just want to say with all of the compassion I can muster… your better angels have maybe woken this up in you for a reason.  You deserve goodness and compassion for YOU in your life.  You deserve to be treated with all of the humanity that you treat each person you love and care for.  And if that is not happening, try not to make excuses to another adult’s behavior. 

Finally…there are two statement given to me over my long lifetime that I carry - one by my dad when I was in my very early 20’s (I am 68 now).  And one I said to myself.  The first, I was brokenhearted and my dad thought I was missing my boyfriend…my dad said “Gems, You don’t have to feel like this.”  It was a lovely sentiment from my dad, but he couldn’t fix the fact I’d broken up with my boyfriend.  His words though, meant so much on a deeper level.  The second was during my 19-year marriage to BPD/NPD exH.  I had endured a lot of painful things.  I remember after one particularly bad thing I stood by the kitchen table and said aloud to myself “I HAVE to remember I feel like this”.  These two sentences, tho’ not applied until the ending of my last relationship in 2020, will save me from deeper pain from now on.  I hope.

Pook, I don’t know if any of this is helpful to you.  But if someone you have *chosen* to be in your close personal life is hurting you, remember yourself and how you feel; and if something feels bad, you don’t have to feel like this…

Warmly,
Gems

This makes sense- the staying and being supportive can in a way be enabling even if it isn't intentional.

How unable a pwBPD is to help themselves and be responsible for their behavior can vary- and is sometimes hard to discern. I think the reminder to take vitamins is one of these situations. If she doesn't take her vitamins and feels worse, her behavior could be worse, and this makes the situation harder for all of you. However, most adults are responsible for taking their own vitamins.

I am not being critical of this situation, as my BPD mother could not function on her own and in a sense- we all stepped in to help with this role. However, too much of this was detrimental to her own sense of self worth and accomplishment. She also wanted to be taken care of and have people do things for her that she could do herself- it met an emotional need of hers.

BPD mother had therapy off and on- but still- the therapy was between her and the therapist. Therapy didn't seem to have an affect on her. I don't know if she did EMDR or DBT. BPD wasn't a known entity in her younger years and EMDR/DBT were not mainstream practices, so I don't know if her outcome would be different if they were.

The idea of holding a boundary may sound simplistic but it's an actual truth that we can not control another person's thoughts and feelings. We can control another person in other ways but they will always have their own thoughts, feelings. As per my other post- you can motivate your partner if she's scared, but external motivation doesn't always produce results in therapy. This is a difficult situation, understandably.

I agree with this, as it would appear to her that you and the T are "ganging up on her". It's that- we are a lay board- not therapists and so don't have the range of experience or are in the position to address your wife's progress or lack of it with the T.

I wanted to comment on this because, the reason this was effective was because it wasn't done for purpose of motivating the BPD partner- it was a sincere, feeling done with the disorder, and being ready to leave, actually meaning it.

Making any threat- without the intention to follow through- as a means to motivate or scare a partner is adding to the dysfunction. It can also damage the relationship and be diffucult to repair if it's done for this reason.

These relationships involve both partners. Each can be afraid of losing the relationship. If the partner without BPD doesn't want to lose the relationship - they may be more apt to walking on eggshells and have difficulty holding boundaries due to not wanting to upset their BPD partner.

When someone holds a boundary that the BPD partner doesn't want - the BPD partner then has a choice- respect the boundary or risk losing the relationship. This allows for them to make the decision. It's a scary one, as the non BPD partner may fear this risk- but it opens the door to the possibility of change, or the BPD partner may choose to leave the relationship. Sometimes when the non partner feels they can't continue, they have less fear of this, and so may be able to hold the boundary and let them make the choice. When someone makes their own choices- that is accountability.

There's a push pull to these relationships. Pushing too far, if the other person pulls, this can activate a fear of abandonment. This fear can be a motivator but a temporary one, as soon as the relationship gets back to "normal" the motivation is gone. There's a cyclic pattern to abusive relationships- the rage, the possible remorse, the trying again. It isn't just with romantic ones as it can involve other family members too.

If someone "pulls" as a way of getting the other person to respond- that is being manipulative too. It's engaging in the disordered dynamics and it causes damage to it. If a person is truly at their end point of tolerance, this then is acting authentically. The pwBPD will then make their own choices with that.

@ForeverDad, nice name ! 


Yes, I'm clear about that, and I know that their previous partners did a much worse job and were much more affected. Two of them used to spank her, and the third one would cry but eventually tried to counterattack.

Btw, in all of my three relationships in which they got pregnant, things were also manageable before that but got much worse after labor and sometimes even during pregnancy. Although there are different psychological explanations for that, like the one you provided, which might be valid, I believe the main reason for that might be biological. First, the Omega-3 that was removed from the mother's brain to the baby's brain, the other nutrients as well, and the change in hormones. This time I'm putting in more effort in giving her supplements, and it clearly helps, to some extent. When the body is severely lacking, much higher dosages are needed.


Yes, she has already tried other CBT therapies in the past, which didn't work very well for her, and recently began pushing on the idea of trying DBT, and she watched some videos about it and liked it. She already recognizes that BPD is what affects her and is ok with that. Because when I explained it all to her, she could see that I was being very sincere. I said that despite knowing a lot about this disorder, it took me years to admit to myself that she also had this disorder, and I was sad about that because I didn't want her to have it because I loved her.

In regard to kids, I think they are doing kind of well. I do explain that this is not normal, and they also see many good moments. The bad reference exists, but hopefully there is not a compulsion for diving into it, because I never allow them to get involved and encourage them to play video games while she is screaming. And when she is storming too much and breaking stuff, I lock myself with them in the room and turn on music. I think they absorb my calmness.

@mitochondrium ,


Yes, that's the point. I wish I still had this power. Need to think about that, but it's another topic.