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 1 
 on: March 01, 2026, 04:23:03 PM  
Started by ThemApples - Last post by ThemApples
A perspective from 24 years married to a pwbpd, 20 of them unhappily: there has been no improvement in their ability to recognize my emotions or even that there is anything other than theirs.

The self-centeredness and selfishness are mind boggling. Those often look like “I did this thing for you!” when you didn’t want that thing and they never even asked, and they are so the victim when you say that. The emotional maturity is less than a toddler - it’s nonexistent. There has been no growth, only entrenchment and wasted time.

I stayed because I thought I was protecting our kid, although recently our young adult kid has been diagnosed with a devastating and life-threatening mental health condition and in hindsight I wish I’d left. I thought I could soften or counter the burden of “it’s your job to make me happy”, which is a setup to fail because pwbpd has been depressed and angry and miserable for decades.  I did not relieve that burden. All I did was demonstrate a dysfunctional relationship and my own self-loathing for staying.

Today, for the hundredth time, I told my spouse I’m sad and lonely and would like more interaction, conversation, and communication with them. He hides from me because sometimes I say, respectfully and focused on specifics, what I need and what I would like to change. (“I would like to have dinner together sometimes, I feel lonely.” “I would like you to please ask before you move all the things out of my room so you can clean the floor.”  To him that is only criticism and his response, as it’s been every time, is “how could you say such mean things to me?!!!” and to hide the rest of the day.

I’m not conflicted, I’m certain that I’m done, and have been for many years. I’m just sad and disappointed in myself for wasting this one wild and precious life in which maybe I could have had a partner and love and laughter and shown my beautiful son those things. I’m just waiting now for 9-12 months for [reason] then I’ll leave, and take the financial devastation of doing that in today’s housing market within a few years of retirement, rather than when US housing was half the cost and mortgage rates were 2% 10 when I first knew I should leave.

Leaving has a cost. Staying has a cost, and for me it’s been enormous. I grieve.

 2 
 on: March 01, 2026, 03:33:38 PM  
Started by SuperDaddy - Last post by SuperDaddy
Hi Horselover,

I don't know why you brought the word "punishment" here. Because this is not negotiation. The course of Chris Voss is also not about that. It is more about making the kidnappers feel comfortable in opening up and sharing information and then having them make small concessions to get something of what they want.

To run out of options means that they can't do further damage and therefore can't escalate the situation. By living apart and being indifferent to the offenses, this can be accomplished.

I'll give you an example. In my case, for a long period I tried to negotiate with my wife for her to leave our home and go to her mother's, unsuccessfully. That was until I made her run out of options. I was about to leave myself, and since she couldn't pay the rent by herself, I would have to end the renting contract. After that, the landlord could then force her out with the help of the police, if necessary. So she preferred to leave in peace, with my support. Her decision also allowed me to stay, therefore leaving open the possibility of her returning. However, if the apartment were my property, things would be harder.

 3 
 on: March 01, 2026, 03:04:35 PM  
Started by SuperDaddy - Last post by Horselover
I hear why you are using comparisons with negotiating with terrorists, given the severity of BPD behaviours. I am not in any way saying they are terrorists, just that I understand why you are saying this.

I'm curious though - let's say you could successfully apply the tools you learned from the negotiations course so that your wife now complies with your requests when she feels she runs out of options (which I don't actually think you can, but let's just say you hypothetically could) . Essentially, in your relationship, she would be like a very young child whom you "punish" when they misbehave. Is that the kind of relationship you are aiming for? Maybe you are...I don't know...just curious.

Also, what makes you think that she will "run out of options"? What's the worst thing you can punish her with that you are certain will make her comply? I can't really think of anything, but maybe you can?

 4 
 on: March 01, 2026, 01:38:21 PM  
Started by Bythe Hedges - Last post by ForeverDad
Quote from: Bythe Hedges on November 21, 2025, 03:21:50 PM
It was heartbreaking for me because I was with him through everything, while he was in the military for 20 years and after his retirement. Then he said he is trying to see me as he used to see me, but he is having a hard time. We have known each other since high school.

I recall that many years ago one of our members observed that military life is regimented and ordered, and that people with BPD traits (pwBPD) can succeed there because they cannot buck the Authority.  Marriage is different, more like teamwork.  No wonder that after he retired his issues as reflected in your marriage suddenly became worse.

Though he treats you now like you have no authority over him - because he can - court is quite different.  He doesn't know it yet, but he will eventually discover that family court is The Authority.

In a manner of speaking, although the marriage is almost surely beyond repair, divorce will be a protection for you and your children.

Quote from: Bythe Hedges on November 21, 2025, 03:21:50 PM
He isn't diagnosed with BPD, but I have mentioned to him that he may have bipolar disorder.

People with acting-out mental health issues often reject labels.  Probably best you don't voice such thoughts unless under your lawyer's guidance.

Frankly, from a legal standpoint it doesn't matter what mental illness your spouse does or doesn't have.  Relatively few of us ever even learned of a diagnosis.  Most of us here who have gone through the divorce process discovered to our shock that family court and the professionals around the court seem to studiously avoid the entire topic.  It's almost as though they view the litigants as just two people bickering with one another.  In my case, it was only after about 5 years of being in and out of court after my final decree that our magistrate finally wrote in the written decision that "the court is inclined to order mother to have individual counseling" but even then stopped short of actually ordering it.

So what does the court do?  As your lawyer likely has already told you, it will rule on the documents and evidence.  It may listen to claims and allegations - generally only covering within the six months before the case was filed - but then the court will set aside anything unsubstantiated as "hearsay" and ignore it.  So be assured that unless he has firsthand proof of you doing something clearly wrong, however much they are emotionally painful, his claims will quickly fall flat.

Another thing the court will do is to move slowly once the initial temp order is issued outlining any spousal or child support and parenting schedule for the minor children.  Expect a very brief temp order hearing within a month or so, perhaps as short as a half hour.
  • You need to get the best (or "least bad") temp order from the very start since temp orders typically continue unchanged until the final decree  in our sort of protracted cases.
  • Yours is not the usual case so be prepared to emphasis your most pressing priorities.

Quote from: Bythe Hedges on November 21, 2025, 03:21:50 PM
I know it is my fault for not trying to find out what he needed, it's my fault for hurting him...
Anyway, out of all we have been through, I still love him; he is my husband and the father of our three children.

Your lawyer will strongly caution you against making any statements whatsoever that you might be at fault or to blame.  Yes you tried, but no one expects you, an untrained and uninformed spouse, to do more than try.  At most you can apologize for hurting his "feelings", though your lawyer would object to even that.  To my knowledge, you cannot be found legally guilty for hurting feelings - except maybe recently in some countries in Europe.

Yes, it is so very tough.  Despite your wishes, your spouse does not want to be your husband.  You will have to accept that reality.  Whether his perceptions are dysfunctional, whether he's been influenced by self-administered psychedelic plants, whether {whatever}... he as an adult has the right to end his marriage.  What you can and must influence is the outcome, for your own protection and the welfare of the children.

 5 
 on: March 01, 2026, 02:00:26 AM  
Started by Bythe Hedges - Last post by ForeverDad
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
Many here have walked in your shoes, been there, experienced that.  We have a wealth of collective wisdom and practical strategies.  Keep us informed and let us know how we can help.  We here in peer support will be here to walk you through this.

It's time to start posting on our Separating and Divorcing board which is more focused on the issues of divorce, custody, parenting, financial and property issues, etc.

It sounds like you've chosen an experienced and proactive lawyer to defend your rights and your children's rights.  In addition to the time-tested collective experience available here, we have found William Eddy's affordable handbook Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder to be filled with excellent insight and guidance to avoid the many hurdles and unexpected pitfalls encountered during a divorce.

Remember too that in the months ahead you will experience tough times and difficult days.  You will weather the storms.  We've been there too... and come out the other side even stronger than before. Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

 6 
 on: February 28, 2026, 10:59:05 PM  
Started by Bythe Hedges - Last post by Bythe Hedges
Quote from: Bythe Hedges on February 28, 2026, 10:56:04 PM
Well, he left me. He was home getting ready to leave for work, which is heavy equipment/construction, but has to drive up to Northern CA for work, while his family is down south. he asked his daughter for a hug because I was getting ready to leave to take her to school. After I dropped her off, I returned home to his truck, and his belongings were gone, as well as his wall plaques. I called him, and he didn't answer, and then 20 minutes later, I got a knock at the door with divorce papers served. My life fell apart, right then and there. No one is in the home but me. just by myself with this packet of white court papers. Just 26 years gone. I know his friends from AA encouraged him to divorce me because I saw the texts, and I didn't like the looks they would give me whenever they came to our house, or when I was riding in his truck, or at a family function for anonymous attenders. I brought it up to him several times over the course of a few years. We have a 10-year-old, a home, 3 dogs, and a cat. im left picking up the pieces, taking care of the home, our child, our pets to include the dog he adopted for emotional support. while he took all the things he could fit in his truck, as well as his adventure bike. And to add insult to injury, I don't have access to any funds that we shared as a joint account. I am so angry and hurt, especially since I know that his friends think I deserve to be treated like this. They knew he was going to serve me because he filed 37 days before I was served. None of them let me know what would happen. I really feel like, because they had struggles in their own relationships, that for some reason I was seen as a way for them to get back at their female ex through me. (It's just my guess, I don't know for sure.) But, I knew when I first met, that I didn't like them, but I went against my better judgement and chose to be more supportive, even when it made my stomach ache. I  went with the belief that if I was supportive enough, he would get better. I was judged, because in the beginning, I didn't want to go to Al-Anon. Then I went to Al-Anon for a full month and every now and then afterwards. Fast forward almost 5 years, and he left me because I got tired of his behavior. I backed off from helping him because I learned I was enabling him, and implemented boundaries- And this is what I get. I'm taking care of a home and family with no money, and I'm going to school at the same time. None of this is fair, and I want to fight him and his friends. He is gone, I get crickets from his side of the family and new friends. In my head, I tried for more than 6 years to save our marriage, but he allowed other people to intervene, other people with no professional counseling experience. I have so much to say to those individuals that I could scream. He broke up his family for nothing. His friends encouraged him to break up his family under false presumptions. My kids have come to the decision that AA did not help him; it only made it worse. There are other recovery programs out there that are better, IMHO. Every day since, I feel anger, hurt, and humiliation. I know he ran away from his family, while his so-called friends only validated him. I really don't want to give depression, BPD, and ptsd anymore credit or as excuses for what he did. All it does is make me think of all our good times. Our kids admitted that their childhood was good. I did everything I could for them, but it only started to take a turn after they became much older (senior year of high school/ adult), and shortly after he retired from the military.
After almost a week of crying and being stuck in my room watching movies, my family bugged me enough to force me up off my butt to seek legal counsel.

So, I hired an attorney who is retired military and also serves as a pro tem judge.
I'm tired of being treated like dirt!! I guess I'll suck it up and cry later after all is said and done.

 7 
 on: February 28, 2026, 10:56:04 PM  
Started by Bythe Hedges - Last post by Bythe Hedges
Well, he left me. He was home getting ready to leave for work, which is heavy equipment/construction, but has to drive up to Northern CA for work, while his family is down south. he asked his daughter for a hug because I was getting ready to leave to take her to school. After I dropped her off, I returned home to his truck, and his belongings were gone, as well as his wall plaques. I called him, and he didn't answer, and then 20 minutes later, I got a knock at the door with divorce papers served. My life fell apart, right then and there. No one is in the home but me. just by myself with this packet of white court papers. Just 26 years gone. I know his friends from AA encouraged him to divorce me because I saw the texts, and I didn't like the looks they would give me whenever they came to our house, or when I was riding in his truck, or at a family function for anonymous attenders. I brought it up to him several times over the course of a few years. We have a 10-year-old, a home, 3 dogs, and a cat. im left picking up the pieces, taking care of the home, our child, our pets to include the dog he adopted for emotional support. while he took all the things he could fit in his truck, as well as his adventure bike. And to add insult to injury, I don't have access to any funds that we shared as a joint account. I am so angry and hurt, especially since I know that his friends think I deserve to be treated like this. They knew he was going to serve me because he filed 37 days before I was served. None of them let me know what would happen. I really feel like, because they had struggles in their own relationships, that for some reason I was seen as a way for them to get back at their female ex through me. (It's just my guess, I don't know for sure.) But, I knew when I first met, that I didn't like them, but I went against my better judgement and chose to be more supportive, even when it made my stomach ache. I  went with the belief that if I was supportive enough, he would get better. I was judged, because in the beginning, I didn't want to go to Al-Anon. Then I went to Al-Anon for a full month and every now and then afterwards. Fast forward almost 5 years, and he left me because I got tired of his behavior. I backed off from helping him because I learned I was enabling him, and implemented boundaries- And this is what I get. I'm taking care of a home and family with no money, and I'm going to school at the same time. None of this is fair, and I want to fight him and his friends. He is gone, I get crickets from his side of the family and new friends. In my head, I tried for more than 6 years toge, but I save our marria let other people intervene, other people with no professional counseling experience. I have so much to say to those individuals that I could scream. He broke up his family for nothing. His friends encouraged him to break up his family under false presumptions. My kids have come to the decision that AA did not help him; it only made it worse. There are other recovery programs out there that are better, IMHO. Every day since, I feel anger, hurt, and humiliation. I know he ran away from his family, while his so-called friends only validated him. I really don't want to give depression, BPD, and ptsd anymore credit or as excuses for what he did. All it does is make me think of all our good times. Our kids admitted that their childhood was good. I did everything I could for them, but it only started to take a turn after they became much older (senior year of high school/ adult), and shortly after he retired from the military.
After almost a week of crying and being stuck in my room watching movies, my family bugged me enough to force me up off my butt to seek legal counsel.

So, I hired an attorney who is retired military and also serves as a pro tem judge.
I'm tired of being treated like dirt!! I guess I'll suck it up and cry later after all is said and done.

 8 
 on: February 28, 2026, 10:49:19 PM  
Started by SuperDaddy - Last post by SuperDaddy
Hey Mutt,

In my original post, I had in mind minor stuff related to living together. However, the concept also applies to behavior containment, like you said. Though when it's about behavior, the conversation is more subtle and usually unspoken.

In fact, we can view every interaction we have with others as a negotiation. That's what I learned from the negotiation course by Chris Voss, in which he deals with kidnappers. While a BPD relationship may not directly align with such an extreme situation, some of the concepts are applicable. After all, when angry, the person with BPD may act like a terrorist. One thing I noticed was that Chris's chances of success with the kidnappers existed only because the criminals were trapped by police and were therefore running out of options. So the criminals could do damage, but they wouldn't escape the consequences.

With my wife, I notice that while living with her, consequences were often ineffective because she would get angry and escalate the damage. But now that she lives apart and wants to restore the relationship, she finds herself running out of options. And gradually, she has been decreasing the intensity of the outbursts. That's an implicit negotiation we're doing.

By the way, when I negotiated her medication adherence, it went smoothly. As I explained the importance and gave her hope that our relationship would work, she immediately agreed.

 9 
 on: February 28, 2026, 09:22:40 PM  
Started by AaronP - Last post by CG4ME
You can't change anyone but yourself.  I tried for 31 years.  I stayed in the marriage for the kids and in my case it resulted in adult children who struggle with self regulation and relationships.  Now they are not speaking to me and my husband (covert narcissist) physically abused me.  This all within the last three months.  You have to take care of yourself first in order to have the clarity you need to be there for your children.  I carried the belief that you stay together and work things out no matter what but over the years my self worth has plummeted and I have been living with little to no joy because my partner does not have the capacity to understand how his behaviour affects others.  There is no accountability or willingness to take responsibility for his own personal growth.  The decision is ultimately yours to make.  It took me 31 years to realize that I deserve to be happy and now I may have to accept that the very reason for staying in the marriage - the kids - has earned me the loss of my daughters.  I think it's also important that your children see you thriving because they are learning what relationships are by observing their parents.  If you have your kids to yourself part of the time without your partner they will come to see that they are happier around you and you can model behaviour that teaches them healthier dynamics.  I understand how hard it is to be going through this.  You just want to protect those children so much it is breaking your heart to see them hurting. But they will be okay especially if they have one fully functioning healthy parent they will have a fighting chance .  Therapy definitely helps and get comfortable learning how to set boundaries but also be prepared for more thunder when you do.  Don't let that stop you either.  You have the knowledge and understanding now of what can happen.  Learn everything you can about personality disorders and remember to take care of your health.  Your children will need you.  You are not responsible for your wifes well being.  She is an adult with a painful and difficult disorder but she has to want to see it and heal it.  God bless and take care. 

 10 
 on: February 28, 2026, 03:04:45 PM  
Started by SuperDaddy - Last post by Mutt
I might be off here, so take this as just my perspective.

When I read through this, I can really relate to the exhaustion behind it. Trying to figure out how to bring things up without setting off a chain reaction is draining. Most of us here have tried some version of timing it right, softening it, waiting a day or two, picking the “least explosive” wording. That part makes sense to me.

Where I get a little cautious for myself is when things start turning into strategy and leverage. Recording agreements, negotiating meds, tying behavior to conditions - I understand why that happens. When things feel chaotic, structure feels safer. I’ve been there. But for me, once I’m at that point, it doesn’t feel like partnership anymore. It feels like containment.

I’m not saying don’t have boundaries. Boundaries matter. And stepping away when someone is dysregulated is healthy. But I’ve had to ask myself at times: am I trying to negotiate a solution, or am I trying to manage the volatility?

There’s a difference.

Sometimes the deeper question isn’t “How do I bring this up without triggering them?” but “What kind of dynamic am I actually in, and what does that mean for what’s realistically possible?”

Just my two cents. I respect the thought you’ve put into it.

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