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 91 
 on: March 26, 2024, 04:30:43 PM  
Started by EyesUp - Last post by EyesUp
@LnL, thanks for that last reply.  For now, I'll say:  I recognize that this is a long game, and I'm not seeking immediate relief.  I am, however, struggling to identify the right proactive measures - to get out of the constant mode of reactivity.  I understand that the best way to change the dynamic is to do just that - so as long as I remain in reactive mode, a large portion of the dynamic is likely to remain the same, even if I attempt to reframe or redirect or ignore...

Not sure why it often feels easier to reply to others than to address myself - but that's been a great thought experiment for me:  How would I advise someone else to act if they were describing my circumstances.  It's a bit of a blind spot.

All that said, an interesting development today that will almost certainly escalate things with my uBPDxw...

My X has been pushing for D13 (not D15) to take prozac.  It took a while, but we finally found a psychiatrist accepting new patients late last year and completed intake.  Today was the first follow up appt, and my X's agenda was:  start prozac. 

Why?  X states that D13 has acute anxiety.

I don't see it. D13 has ADHD combined with normal 13yo girl behaviors.

Long story short, I was sort of dreading the appt because I expected that my kid was about to get prescribed an SSRI without a clear need or a holistic treatment plan.

Instead...

The doctor told my wife, your daughter: 
- does not present risk of self harm or overt depression or esteem issues
- could benefit from more programmatic therapy - possibly DBT - to develop some coping skills, which fits with her ADHD executive functioning issues anyway
- is not you, and we need to assess her individually - rather than treat her based on what's worked for you in the past

My X was barely keeping it together. Her hands were balled into fists. She stood up and collected her bag at one point, but did not take a step toward the door. She was near tears. But the doctor held firm and proposed a course of action... which we will follow up on.

I have to admit that I was almost glad to see my X behave this way with the doctor, it's immature but there have been so few instances in which someone else sees what I see when X doesn't immediately get her way.

I pushed hard for the doctor to speak with D13's T in advance - after months, they finally connected yesterday.  The T also states that prozac is not indicated.

I also privately sent the doctor a screenshot of D13's latest report card (mostly Bs) anticipating that X would exaggerate... sure enough, at one point X stated "she's failing at school".  Again, showing the doctor who is reliable - or not.

X also offered to have the doctor speak with D15 (inappropriate - and another smoking gun re: how X engages D15...) and also with her fiance.  Not sure how I feel about that...

Ahead of the meeting, I had a short call with X to try to pre-align. I stated that I'm open to SSRIs if the doctor says it's necessary.  Instead of saying, "ok, good" X offered the following:  "you don't see these acute anxiety episodes because I'm the safe parent, so D13 only shares her concerns and behaves this way with me"

While X didn't say this to the doctor (at least, not in front of me), the doctor asked directly:  is it possible that this is a way that D13, middle kid, is getting more attention from mom?  perhaps not consciously?

Mom didn't even hear the question. Too angry.

Amazing.

The whole thing reminded how critical yet difficult and fragile parenting can be - under any circumstances. I'm at once encouraged that I can occasionally, with a bit of anticipation and luck, execute at least part of a game plan. Not sure how this will play out - I expect some retribution from uBPDxw for what she surely perceives as a loss. And the thing that still kills me is: It still hurts to see her in pain. She says that she's worried about our kid (me too!) and she was incredulous that the doctor would not prescribe the drug that X had preselected for a diagnosis that she predetermined. She actually said "failing to take action now is negligent" so I'm concerned she might try to sabotage the doctor and start over... ugh.

On the other hand, bringing this back to D15 - It's even more complicated...   I haven't followed up with D15's T yet - although I just finished the book recommendation, so that's next...

 92 
 on: March 26, 2024, 03:54:39 PM  
Started by eightdays - Last post by EyesUp
my thought was, I cannot be the one to suggest that as a solution to her.   

This is 110% correct. If you read 50 BPD books, 49 or possibly 50 will say that the only path out is for the pwBPD to come to their own conclusions, seek effective therapy, and stick with it.  When I was learning about this, I called a few intensive inpatient programs (which I could not afford anyway, but hey... no stone unturned!) and they all immediately qualified the situation:  A spouse or parent who influences a program participant will likely fail and be rejected/blamed/accused in some way later.  They have the best chance of success when someone seeks help on their own.

And another told me that in his own life, he left a marriage due to mental health issues and then decided after a couple of years of being on his own that he didn't want to be alone and didn't want to find a new partner.  So he decided to remarry and deal with the problems. 

We have quite a few members here who are in various stages of accepting/dealing with the problems. D isn't for everyone, and for almost infinite reasons. That said, this anecdote possibly proves that anything is possible...  although it sounds like in this case deal with the problems = accept the problems.

I also talked to another counselor who went far in the other direction, and said do you prefer to be alone or in an abusive relationship?

I'm here to tell you that it's not a binary scenario...  but this thought experiment is a really good starting point, because if/when you can accept being alone, then you are on your way to being ready to not be alone...  sounds like you're already doing this work, understanding your FOO, etc. 

So stay or go.  I don’t like either one, but just the idea that this could be a nightmare to get out of makes me lean towards ‘go’. 

One thing that was suggested to me that I could not do due to the pandemic was:  If family court in your county is open, go watch.  You'll learn a lot about the process and what really happens.  My D unfolded during the pandemic and remote/zoom hearings were not "public" - so I spent a lot of time online learning as much as I could.  I read divorce books for men.  And I read divorce books for women (eye opening!).  The best were simply divorce books, as well as the BPD literature such as Splitting. I interviewed A LOT of attys (don't ask for a consultation - some will charge.  Instead, ask to interview to see if there's a fit - there's usually a free :30 session).  If you're in a small town, attending court is a great way to meet attys and see who practices in your area and who handles various situations well.  Of course, not everyone has the flexibility to do this - or wants to risk being seen at court, etc. 

So - how can we best help?  Tactical/practical advice?  Emotional support?  A bit of both?

Do you have a sense of what will enable you to make a decision - for now - with greater conviction?   I say for now, because the easiest option is always "status quo" - and there's nothing wrong with that.

 93 
 on: March 26, 2024, 03:46:59 PM  
Started by TelHill - Last post by TelHill
I began to read his famous novel a few years ago. It was emotionally difficult so I stopped. 

The short story made an impression but it didn't translate to my real life. I thought I was the odd duck who had this strange mother and strange extended family.

I was glad to find the YT vlogger. It helps me to treat it as a fact rather than a shameful burden to carry.  The shame spreads to the FOO and we all suffered. I'll plow through her videos.

 94 
 on: March 26, 2024, 03:15:44 PM  
Started by Imatter33 - Last post by livednlearned
I think i resent my reality of motherlessness more than I resent her as a person/mom.

This really got me in the chest. Oof. It's so profound to recognize this ... I hadn't ever thought of it this way. But it makes sense. Having a mother who fails to create the conditions for a secure attachment can lead to a lasting injury.

I haven't heard many others here over the years say this so I don't know if this is atypical or not ...I actually found it exquisitely painful when an older friend (22 years older than me, so a mother figure) demonstrated love when she offered money (no strings attached) to help me get full custody of my son. I had married a man with a PD and managed to get out of the relationship, but he was intent on staying negatively engaged through court. That debacle went on for 4 years and I ran out of money. My friend offered help, and my lawyer offered to provide legal counsel at a reduced cost. The combination of these two older women trying to help me nearly drove me to a nervous breakdown. I had a moment in my living room feeling like I was going to get sick and pass out -- I hadn't really ever really been put in a position where I had to acknowledge I was worth their kindness and care and love. Being offered something as a gesture of unconditional love really hurt! I didn't have any way to make sense of it. I had friends and approval that meant something to me, through my education and career, but this felt different.

There is something about resisting love from others that functioned like a codependent engine for me. Receiving love is so painfully vulnerable. Like physically painful. Especially if you wanted it so much as a kid, and there were moments when you thought you could get it, only to have it taken from you, repeatedly. How do you give yourself permission to feel vulnerable when that instinct is mixed up with pain and betrayal?

I had to work with a therapist to be able to accept the gift, then I had to keep working with her to help me not build resentment or feel guilt -- basically, managing emotions that would ruin the friendship. Accepting the gift felt a bit like giving away power. I had to stay vulnerable. Not easy to do without a therapist. Not easy to do with a therapist  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

With you and your MIL, I think the in-law dynamic also adds a dimension of complexity that, at least for me, would make it even harder.

Excerpt
I think i have been trying to find a replacement so that I can say I've dealt with the motherlessness. OOF. I have not. I have replacement resentment toward MIL mostly....that I created myself. No one forced me to put my MIL in that place but me.


Maybe not force but she does have mother in the job title. You didn't really get to choose her. Maybe it created a higher than normal expectation to repair an attachment injury with someone else who shared that title?

MILs are known for challenging relationships. So then we have two challenges -- our own feelings around an impaired mother, and then the triangle dynamics with a mother who has a strong attachment (I would assume) with her bio child. And unless you married your spouse because he had a family you wanted to be part of, most of us take what we get. Just like our own mothers.

Excerpt
I have been running from reality.

I wonder if you are running from the same thing I was? I really avoided confronting my own worthiness, my own lovability. Similar to what Methuen describes, I did not allow anyone to parent me, including myself, until I worked with someone who could help me.

My estrangements lasted 10 years with my uBPD sibling, 7 years with disordered father, and LC for the same period with my adult child mother. My sibling and I are as LC as possible, and would be NC if it weren't for my parents occasionally pushing contact.

They weren't there for me as a kid and the memo was pretty clear that they weren't going to be there for me as an adult either. In fact, it was more like the job description was be there for them no matter what. I needed to figure out how to keep myself emotionally safe and I couldn't do that while being repeatedly injured. That's what Notwendy's comments brings to mind for me -- the estrangement was so I could gather strength and edit the family script where I got to treat myself like someone who was loved. If I didn't do that work, it would've been too easy for my family to say I was wrong to care about myself and for me to believe it.

This is a bit more tactical, but understanding Murray's family systems theory was a big aha for me. People in my family use other family members to regulate their emotions and try to stabilize relationships. Kids end up suffering collateral damage because there seems to be rules but no one can explain them so many kids put their efforts into illusions of control. Like responding to chaos with fawn, flight, fight, freeze.

For me, I used adulthood to flee. I became the ultimate outsider. Unfortunately, there is a cost to that. It's only after understanding how my family's triangle dynamics work that I can align my boundaries with how they function. Without that understanding, my boundaries were kinda rigid and I didn't understand how I could keep walking into a buzz saw.

I no longer mistake their overtures for closeness as genuine because they're driven by triangle dynamics and not an authentic desire for intimacy. In fact, I think intimacy and closeness sets off some of their high tension behaviors. And for whatever reason, I seem to embody intimacy and closeness to them. I guess my need for it was transparent? I sometimes wonder if I wore my vulnerability and spontaneity too openly and they both wanted what it represented and were threatened by it at the same time. If you walk around feeling things that they feel afraid of or remind them of, childhood is going to be really really confusing. And adulthood isn't going to make much more sense without people helping us understand wtf was going on for us as kids.

 95 
 on: March 26, 2024, 02:32:58 PM  
Started by eightdays - Last post by SinisterComplex
Thanks for the welcomes, much appreciated.   
I know I have to choose what is right for myself as first consideration.    It is the murkiness of whether or not this situation can be repaired, or if it is hopeless and may become even worse that makes the choices unclear.   I have just been surprised to hear from some professionals that they think this might be something that could be worked out, when everything I have read says definitively otherwise.   One said that she would need to understand that there needed to be a change.   But I tried that before and this did not go well.  The ripples from that failed attempt have lasted years.  So I thought he may not have fully understood.  Another said that her condition was treatable if we could get her to the right therapist.   And my thought was, I cannot be the one to suggest that as a solution to her.   And another told me that in his own life, he left a marriage due to mental health issues and then decided after a couple of years of being on his own that he didn't want to be alone and didn't want to find a new partner.   So he decided to remarry and deal with the problems.  I also talked to another counselor who went far in the other direction, and said do you prefer to be alone or in an abusive relationship?

So stay or go.  I don’t like either one, but just the idea that this could be a nightmare to get out of makes me lean towards ‘go’.   It becomes a kind of prison.

Attorneys, I wish I had more options where I live, but there are very few of them here.   I read the Splitting book, and I think the one I am working with understands and is willing to play hardball if needed.   She is so hard to predict I can't begin to guess how this would go.   There are no kids involved, which may limit some of the possible shenanigans.   

I do have issues from my family of origin that led me here, and this has shined a great big light on that.

Be careful with the idea of listening to "experts"

Often times it is easy to get caught up in not viewing people as just other people with opinions. Experts are no different than you. Now to give you an educated answer...is it possible for things to change? Yes. Can therapy help? Yes. Is it the right move for you? Well that truly depends on how much work you really want to do. It will be a long arduous road that may not have a happy ending.

Since you are married I can understand wanting to exhaust all resources and not wanting to give in and give up. However, let's remove the emotional attachment aspect for a moment if you can. Try to look at the relationship from the view of X's and O's, pros and cons. Do you feel there is upside still left in the relationship? Do you feel you have hit the ceiling?

Do you feel your partner elevates you or brings you down? Can you accept the what is of your partner and let go of the what she could be thought process?

Now, the one thing I will say that moves the thinking along and helps you from a critical standpoint...you do not have any children so if you have to move on it will be much easier and a lot more of a clean break.

Lastly, my friend the most important thing for you to do is to quit trying to predict her behavior. Stop it right now, this instant! Why? You will be running in circles causing yourself more stress and anxiety for no good reason. You are trying to use logical thinking and trying to predict someone who is illogical and literally has a physically different mind from your own...as in abnormal. You cannot argue and fight with disordered people because it is a zero sum game.

So instead of trying to guess how things would go how about you focus on the path you want to take and focus on what is in your control and let go of what is not in your control.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

 96 
 on: March 26, 2024, 02:01:33 PM  
Started by Imatter33 - Last post by Imatter33
Just had the unfortunate reminder this website can be a bit like a person with BPD, if they don't like what you're saying...it will be deleted.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

my response was deleted. 

Sigh.

The jist was my emotional dysregulations used to be mostly due to sheer exhaustion from being in any type of relationship with her. It was an emotional survival mode with my mom. The survival of our shaky relationship was always riding on something I did or said.

Now in NC, the reasons can be anything big or small....and my newest emotional eruption unearthed the resentment I've been holding onto.

Side note: I don't like getting closer to older women either but I do experience a rather powerful disarming euphoria when I witness  a woman that is both powerful and loving. I just want to be in their presence. And then i go home ....and weep over my closet resentment that they are not my mother, or that my mother will not ever  be like them ( one of the two)...... haha.

I am going to put a  HAHA right  there so that you all know my mood has lightened...

but this work is never not heavy. HUGS.

Thanks everyone so far.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

 97 
 on: March 26, 2024, 01:57:13 PM  
Started by eightdays - Last post by eightdays
Thanks for the welcomes, much appreciated.   
I know I have to choose what is right for myself as first consideration.    It is the murkiness of whether or not this situation can be repaired, or if it is hopeless and may become even worse that makes the choices unclear.   I have just been surprised to hear from some professionals that they think this might be something that could be worked out, when everything I have read says definitively otherwise.   One said that she would need to understand that there needed to be a change.   But I tried that before and this did not go well.  The ripples from that failed attempt have lasted years.  So I thought he may not have fully understood.  Another said that her condition was treatable if we could get her to the right therapist.   And my thought was, I cannot be the one to suggest that as a solution to her.   And another told me that in his own life, he left a marriage due to mental health issues and then decided after a couple of years of being on his own that he didn't want to be alone and didn't want to find a new partner.   So he decided to remarry and deal with the problems.  I also talked to another counselor who went far in the other direction, and said do you prefer to be alone or in an abusive relationship?

So stay or go.  I don’t like either one, but just the idea that this could be a nightmare to get out of makes me lean towards ‘go’.   It becomes a kind of prison.

Attorneys, I wish I had more options where I live, but there are very few of them here.   I read the Splitting book, and I think the one I am working with understands and is willing to play hardball if needed.   She is so hard to predict I can't begin to guess how this would go.   There are no kids involved, which may limit some of the possible shenanigans.   

I do have issues from my family of origin that led me here, and this has shined a great big light on that.

 98 
 on: March 26, 2024, 01:52:19 PM  
Started by campbembpd - Last post by zondolit
I remember the heaviness and scariness of beginning to see divorce as the best possible way forward.

I am a Christian and never expected to divorce. I came to learn that Jesus seeks our healing, and I was not able to heal while married to someone who continually harmed me. I imagined going to a doctor for a dog bite with the dog still attached. What doctor would clean the wound and send me home with the dog still attached? No! The first thing is to remove the dog biting me. Only then can I start to heal.

I concur that lawyers these days rarely work with legal separations and generally will discourage this.

The option of living separately, however, is something you could do on your own. My therapist recommended it as a way, in part, to adjust the children to the coming divorce. (My children are younger than yours.) I felt immediate relief upon separating from my husband.

In my case, I first asked my husband for a therapeutic (or healing) separation overseen by a therapist. When that did not work out, I asked him to see a divorce mediator with me. When that did not work out, I hired a divorce lawyer.

While I was open and transparent about the therapeutic separation and divorce mediator, I kept my cards close to my chest once I'd decided to hire a lawyer; my husband knew nothing until he was served with the divorce papers.

Prior to that I'd also been pulling back financially (I was the sole wage earner): I opened my own bank account, I told my husband he needed to get a job and to start paying for his own health insurance or I wouldn't keep him on my plan, etc. I was being honest about the financial things necessary for me to feel a sense of financial fairness in the marriage and I was also trying to prepare us (him) for living separately.

 99 
 on: March 26, 2024, 01:17:58 PM  
Started by kells76 - Last post by kells76
With stepmom/stepdad dynamics, I can imagine that one or both of your kids will have a relationship crisis and the opportunity to address things will present itself. With my situation, I had to do a lot of pre-work to figure out what my intention was, and be really clear about it so I didn't get tangled up and lost in a potentially loaded conversation.

Maybe I need to wait and know that it'll be clear when it's time to take a conversational risk, and if it isn't clear now, then it isn't the time?

How do you think they would respond? Have you done something like with small stuff and gotten any signs of how they might react?

It depends. SD18 will hear H and I, I think, when we come out and say something that faces into what's going on at Mom's house -- she won't immediately defend it -- and it sounds like SD15 can also be in the "hearing and not defensive" space about some things, but it doesn't feel like either of them are past that. Neither seems very curious about what else I think or see, or why I think or see those things. I guess part of that could be they're in that really myopic teen developmental phase where they just are most concerned about themselves and their peers, with little deep interest or curiosity in adults.

If your kids find it hard to launch or seem to need stability, are you and H on the same page about them moving in with you at some point? That's the part of step parenting that took me most by surprise.

Yes, we're both open to it -- right now the kids aren't -- but who knows what will happen. SD18 now wants to move to this country where her friend lives and get a job there -- though fortunately it would be not that far from where H and I plan to move in a few years once they launch. H thinks that SD15 will likely pull away from us a lot when she turns 18; I think he's right.

...

Couple more updates.

SD18 was kind of bait-y last week. H was playing a song for all of us on youtube -- it had come up in conversation -- and as we were listening to the lyrics, SD18 said "Wow, is this about [tension-filled social topic]?" Um, no, not everything is about that  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  I made what I thought was the neutral comment of "lyrics like this can speak to lots of different people. To me it reads like unrequited love" to which SD18 said "You can have unrequited love with a parent". Neither H nor I touched that. It didn't seem like a genuine "I want to talk about my relationship with Dad" statement, more of a "gunning for a conflict" statement. She didn't pursue it after that.

H was driving SD15 home from a friend's house and they got to talking. Apparently Mom promised SD15 at Christmas that she (Mom) would change SD15's name legally. Now Mom is asking H for SD15's birth certificate to make it happen. SD15 also said she "doesn't feel at home" with us. H was able to talk with her about her nearly continuous phone use, and she did seem to hear him when he shared that he wants to have a relationship with her but the phone gets in the way.

If I were to take my own advice about hearing all that, I'd tell myself I shouldn't be surprised. It ticks all the boxes of high conflict: Mom making promises she doesn't immediately (or ever) keep, Mom "buying" the kids' loyalty through doing whatever they say they want, Mom hiding huge decisions from H.

I didn't/don't feel anything overtly about it -- I'm not ruminating, thinking circles, consciously anxious/elevated heart rate, distracted... but I think it's still impacting me. Maybe the dynamic is that there are two parts to hearing stuff like that from Mom's house: one is surprise/shock/being caught off guard, and the other is the actual impact on me physically/emotionally. Even though I'm basically "over" ever being surprised or shocked by anything Mom does any more, that doesn't mean there's no impact on me. So I guess I'm feeling some depression, hopelessness, powerlessness, and grief again, underneath the surface of being normally functional.

 100 
 on: March 26, 2024, 12:18:58 PM  
Started by wanderer11 - Last post by PeteWitsend
Just remember who you're dealing with.  She's not going to honor any promises or agreements you make during this time, and she's not going to behave as a person trying to save the relationship, even if she's claiming that's what she wants.

Look out for yourself, and don't get caught surprised by her.

I think too that pwBPD struggle mightily with uncertainty, and so she may on some level create more chaos now so she can resolve this "uncertainty" by forcing you to end it (which she can blame on you)

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