Continuing the self respect and open warfare thread

[GaGrl]

I haven't weighed in yet, but here goes... .

My DH was active, then reserve, then active officer, then reserve -30 years total service -so I get the military aspect. I'm almost grateful I wasn't married to him during those years.

His ex , the uNPD/BPD, simply refused to go to multiple postings with him, so he became the equivalent of an absent Dad. That ranged from a 2-year assignment in Cold War Europe to a nearby posting where he could drive home on weekends.

Some aspects were OK, some not. There was infidelity that the children were exposed to... .certainly not the case with the FF family. There were differences with discipline that the school counselor was brought into and that nearly involved DFCS.

In the end, DH went reserve again because his next posting was a 2-year XO assignment in a Central American jungle. He had 3 teenagers and knew that after 2 years, someone would be dead - either his then-wife or one of the teens. He most definitely made career sacrifices and personal sacrifices to protect the children.

And guess what? They might be physically OK, but each of the three adult children is in need of long-term therapy. None has sustained a long-term relationship.

No answers here. I just wonder at what point you decide that one stable household is better for the children than a combined chaotic household.

[chump]

I too am the child of a mother with BPD who isn't nearly as functional as FF's wife. My mother can't seem to handle most household tasks, raising kids, or a job. For FF's wife to be able to do these things, even with issues, is remarkable to me.

However, I know that conflict can exist even with a functional person with BPD. An incident such as the topic of discussion was a regular occurrence for me growing up along with many other difficult ones. This is why I support FF's trying to establish boundaries and not tolerate abuse. This was not in question.

I found myself nodding in agreement to NotWendy's post here.  I too was raised by a BPD mom, four children, not eight like FF's family, but like NotWendy my mom barely coped.  And she was pretty horrible to all of us, and my dad.  He died much too young, and frankly I think his marriage hastened his end.

My dad would have had every right to divorce her, and when I was a kid, I often wished he would, but in hindsight, as bad as it was in our home, it would have been so much worse if we had been left alone with her.  And back then in particular, the likelihood of him getting full custody was essentially nil.  Although ill-advised, unhealthy, codependent, etc, etc, my dad was a certain kind of hero who stood in the breach and modeled a kind of steadiness and calm that ultimately helped me find my way in the world.  Again, so far from optimal, and lots of good arguments against the choice he made to remain in his marriage, but I'm glad he stayed and continued to be the glue of our family.

It's through that filter that I watch FF struggle to hold it all together.  I see Harri's (I think) point about withdrawing when FF's wife is verbally aggressive with the children, but I'm guessing that intervening at those moments means all out war.  Those situations seem to present to FF as one of two bad choices, confront his wife in front of the child(ren), or leave her permanently and seek full custody.  He seems at the moment to be choosing a middle path, at great expense to himself.  It's not clear that either of the other two options, a bitter protracted divorce, or an ongoing World War III in his home, are better than a tactical retreat in these situations, and then always looking for new ways to establish healthier boundaries.

Chump.

[Meadowslark]

Hey FF. I've not posted in your threads before, but have been following and am truly amazed at the level of tolerance you have for your wife's behaviors towards you and your children.

I'd like to give major kudos to Harri, whose points are above and beyond anything I could come up with. I'm not attacking you (nor do I understand any of the biblical references - other reason I've stayed out of your threads) but express enormous amounts of sympathy for your children. It must be hell for them to witness the abusive behaviors of your wife towards them and you on a fairly regular basis. There doesn't seem to be much stability in their lives, and there are eight of them. Kudos to you for trying to reign it all in.

Speaking as a child of a malignant sadist NPD father and older sibling of an out-of-control BPD sister, my perspective is obviously very different. I do wish my parents had divorced much earlier - I think the damage they inflicted would have been lessened had a stable household been provided. And there were only 2 kids! My sister is supposedly in treatment but still extremely damaged by our father's behaviors, and I've been in therapy for 3+ years following a suicide attempt. Our mother is irreparably damaged by PD abuse.

All I'm trying to say is the same as what Gagrl said:

I just wonder at what point you decide that one stable household is better for the children than a combined chaotic household.

But chump provided insight:

It's not clear that either of the other two options, a bitter protracted divorce, or an ongoing World War III in his home, are better than a tactical retreat in these situations, and then always looking for new ways to establish healthier boundaries.

Seems like a double-edged sword in most respects. I suppose I'm biased towards the children, since I remember what it's like to be in those situations - helpless, unheard, and like a prisoner of a war that our parents started. (Disclaimer: This is just my opinion based on what I've read in these threads. Feel free to correct me.)

[Sunfl0wer]

At the risk of chiming in late, just gonna mention one thing... .

FFw has a job, earns a check, I think she holds her money seperate from his not intermingling with the main one he uses to pay bills by her own choice.  I think.

So why does anyone feel she is entitled to show up without a wallet, expecting to rely on FF to have funded this?

Specifically what I am asking... .
if roles were reversed, and FF were the any female member here, the woman in this scenario, and FF husband the gentleman type that opens doors, would we still expect the BPD husband to behave like an entitled bully, and then would we be telling our female member, hey, why not just give him the money?

Idk, I have seen advice to females here and usually they are admonished to disengage, not reinforce verbal abuse, not give car keys, etc.

[Notwendy]

Sunflower - had FFw been pissy at him and then demanded money for her own use, this would have been a different situation.

However, what happened here is that the family was on their way to a church supper- FF included. I presume there was no discussion about who would pay- it was a family event, and I suppose she assumed FF would pay for all of them, or she would have brought money.

So, she gets pissy in the car, and FF decides to remove himself. Not a bad idea, but now FFw and children are now dropped off at church and FF plans to drive off. FFw did not expect it, finds herself without dinner money. She's angry about being stranded and asks FF for cash so they can eat.

This is not a demand for personal funds. She's now dropped off at church and didn't plan to be there without FF. She asks for cash so that she and the children can eat.

This is different than if someone- male or female is abusive and demands money.

I think if the genders were changed, the situation- being unexpectedly dropped off with the kids and no money for dinner would still be punitive to the kids.

[formflier]

Correct about money.  My wife puts 100% of her money into her account... and a chunk of "my" money.

We have a pot for household things that we both have access to.  I put 100% into that.

I have a pot that only I have access to... .I put 100% into that.

Big picture:  I do limit the amount in the joint account.  It has run out a time or two... .and I've let that debit card not work until start of next month.  The ultimate boundary... .when the debit card rejects.

Note:  In the Navy and in my executive jobs I did multi-million dollar line item budgets... .never once had any money end up missing or misspent.  It galls me to budget this way (the way we do in our household)... .but I make it work. 

My wife had her purse with her... .as she was blathering away and trying to shame me for not wanting to come inside and eat with them... .she checks her purse and realizes she has no money.  Trust me... .had I seen any... .I mean any "softening" or indication that she at all needed to be nice.  I would have handed over the money.

There is no chance of me getting full custody.  My ex brother in law divorced based on 1 stable household is better than a war in one.  It was a bad call.  You have to get them to the stable house. 

Without sole physical custody... .every... and I mean every transfer of kids would be a stage for punishment.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Idk, I'm not gonna take sides.  I am not even implying anything.  I am offering my perspective.

FFW is capable of bringing money.  (I will not elevate her to a level of entitlement for money he brought, nor de elevate her to a level of incapable/victim of FF. Yup people make mistakes, both parties.  Also people have "habits." Doesn't much matter reason IMO why she didn't take responsibility of having cash on hand in case of this or emergency.  Kind of a good thing to do as general principal, IMO)

I also feel handing kids money is involving kids into a dispute.

"Stranded" - idk, seems like all ate, didn't go hungry.  FFW had a choice to stay in vehicle and go home.  I suspect he went back for everyone at end and they had a ride?  I am not saying her position was a nice one.  I am just saying she had choices, made some and so did FF, and I am not feeling either made "best" ones in this situation.  Again, just my thoughts is all.  

Imo, sometimes treating a person as helpless, enables helplessness, generally speaking.

I think FF responding in a way "in reaction" to any FFW behavior is a response worthy of reconsideration.

So to see if I can address his question of what choices he may have had... .
1. Consider if you knew she likely expected you to pay, to have offered money in advance.  I have done this and it went well for me.  If I knew ex would not be able to make a request of me without rudeness for his ego was at stake, I in advanced provided the thing, so he didn't have to ask.  I eliminated the verbal crud from him and prevented escalation this way.  He sometimes recognized my behavior as kindness and relaxed a bit.  He hated asking me for much, and stressed doing so.
2. Consider: Oh, I wasn't prepared for that... .then offer simple solution.  Like oh, maybe we can pay double next time.  Sort of a distraction from looking to you, and provide a redirection to her attempting to do some "empowering" problem solving. (Only issue with this is it seems like an implied lie)
3. Consider announcing ahead of time your plan at the house... .it can empower/enable her to plan ahead.
4. Consider just staying back (announcement at house) so any confrontation about it can happen at the house.
5. Consider a new rule of always keeping emergency 50 bucks in every vehicle and for borrower to replace... .this way she coulda dipped into the glove box, helped herself, all involved get a lesson on prepping for situating unexpected.
6. Consider handing her money... .well seems like that was covered, just saying as I see it as a valid option worthy of mentioning as well as others.  I'm not sold on any of these options anyway... .this one, or all.  Reason being is YOU know what her real tone was, what your boundaries are, and what other logistics are feasible, aND hAve a bether iDea of say... .telling at house may ca use bigger dyregulation for kid's to see, idk.

Hoping I offered an overall positive perspective with options or at least another view, idk.

[empath]

FF, have you stated this boundary to your wife clearly and directly? ie. I will not give you money out of my wallet if you are being pissy toward me. So that she knew in advance that this was something that could happen.

[motherhen]

I've read both threads in one sitting and one thing I haven't seen addressed. I've read most of your threads since I've been here FWIW. FF, you use logic above all else, but still the empathy is missing.

I understand she was being pissy towards a small child when you encountered her prior to the incident. Instead of possibly taking over with the child to complete the assignment or at least relieve her from "duty" for the moment, you left without saying a word. This is a HUGE abandonment trigger for the BPD.

Then you did a nice thing with the pretzel, but it's kind of like throwing a dog a bone when what she likely needed was a freaking break from kids. I wouldn't swoon over a pretzel when you failed to fufill your parenting duty when clearly needed and I'm not BPD.

Then you changed plans suddenly and decided not to attend the dinner. Another HUGE trigger. She's reeling and thinking about the people who will ask about where you are and how it will look, etc. I don't care about the money, it's obviously complicated but you certainly showed your stuff in front of the kids and won the battle but perhaps lost the war. If you divorce, paying her won't depend on her treating you with respect.

The sex, people with BPD use sex as well, there are many reasons that are foreign to us nons. She was obviously quite anxious following all of that and needed to reassure herself which is a typical BPD response to being unsure of where she stands or if you are going to abandon her.

[Notwendy]

We can look at this thread from a right/wrong perspective, but it doesn't have to be, and that isn't my intention.

I support FF in upholding boundaries.

The question is what tool for which job? Or as the title says "warfare". This already establishes the situation. If this is war, in war there is rarely two winners. Usually one side wins, the other loses after a battle with considerable damage. FF has mentioned attempts to stabilize the marriage. War destabilizes the loser. Is it possible to do both?

In a war, one has different weapons and approaches. How does one wage war on the enemy without too much collateral damage to innocent civilians?  Do you use ground troops, firearms, nukes?

One of the reasons we experience ongoing conflict in relationships is that both partners bring their own relationship tools to the relationship. We use what we know, we use what works for us, but if these tools are dysfunctional or destructive, we may not get the results we want. If this is the case, then we can decide at some point that the tools we have are not working for us and we need new tools. We may not know what we need, but using the same tools and getting the same results would make us reflect on that. Doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results doesn't work well.

As a child of a BPD mother, I was raised experiencing conflict between my parents. I also agree with doing the best thing possible for the children, but the children are affected by such issues. If the goal is to reduce the collateral damage, if possible, then one has to consider the effect of the battle plan with the spouse.

In fact, while I am using the military idea- as stated by FF, the whole idea of war with your wife seems incompatible with the idea of stabilizing the family. War is destructive. It hurts.

The issue isn't if FF has the right to defend his boundaries. But using emotional nukes can create a whole lot of damage and the kids can get caught in the fallout.

My position is that, while military analogies work great in the armed forces, they aren't the best approach to family harmony. Maybe it is time to lay down arms and learn different skills if the goal is different results. But if the goal is to win through open warfare, then that is a choice as well.

[formflier]

FF, have you stated this boundary to your wife clearly and directly? ie. I will not give you money out of my wallet if you are being pissy toward me. So that she knew in advance that this was something that could happen.

This is well known boundary.

I will continue the conversation about money but won't hand it over untill the attitude is right and sometimes the issue settled.

Had she become nice I would have set a time to talk later and handed money.

The only other conversational boundary that is better known is threats.

You better do x or I will Y.  I get up and walk away. 

FF

[teapay]

Your strategy of consistency in maintaining boundaries is correct, including this instance.  No one was abused, controlled or had their safety to put jeopardy by you.  No one went hungry or would have.  No kids were triangulated by you.  Your kids saw you wouldnt take rude treatment.  Long term your strategy of maintaining consistent boundaries, supported by validation, which you do, is also correct and overtime has probably brought overall more stability to your family that other method.  You seem to know this by experience.  You echo this over and over.  My situation is similar to yours.  I have 5 kids under 12 and my wife is alittle less functional than yours.  Money issues, yes. Issues regarding separation and it's practical implications, yes. The strategy you are using has also worked best for me not withstanding all the critics.  Overall my W has done better with this approach which has brought stability to the family.  AltHough imperfectly,  she has connected behavior with consequences.  My wife is the destabilizing force in the family because is inherently unstable with me or without me

[formflier]

Sometimes others express things much better.

Teapay pretty much has it nailed... .the way I view it.


Here is the nuance that I would add... .that specifically applies to my military experience.

Naval Aviation and operations on a flight deck... .and combat can be described as "controlling chaos".  Best way to do that is to increase structure and predictability.  So that when you look at a decision made by a service person in the heat of the moment, I'm not so interested in the decision as the underlying value or goal used to make a snap judgment.  Usually, that value or goal will point back to structure.

Empathy:  I will tell you that this is a primary thing my P is working with me on.  It is what it is.  I'm going to toss in some psych terms that I may not be using exactly correctly... .so give me some wiggle room here.

She says that lots of military guys will "dissociate" during periods of danger or stress because there are lots of unpleasant things that need to be done for the survival of the lives entrusted to you.  That the value placed on your own life is fairly low and the importance of "mission" is placed above that.

Example:  Plane is on fire, I'm the aircraft commander.  Chances I will express any sort of empathy to my crew is about zero.  That would waste time and energy... .and potentially their lives.  

many of you guys:  "but... .your family is not on fire?"    I get that intellectually.  When the stress is on, you go with what you know.

From a woman's point of view (specifically my wife):  The traits and thought patterns that keep aircrew alive and airplanes intact do not translate well into good relationship skills.  I likely "overly thoughtful" and unemotional.  I'm sure my disrespect of "free spirit" come through loud and clear.

It's something I am working on.  

FF

[chump]

More kudos to teapay for expressing what I was trying to say, only saying it better, and with the benefit of actually living it.

What a great thread, so much insightful, genuinely useful input.

Chump.

[KateCat]

The following is my perception only:

You family is indeed "on fire." Teapay's description of how he has doused the fire in his own family is a valuable contribution to this thread.

Having followed your posts from the beginning, I fear that the teapay protocol has not worked and will not work in your particular (extreme) situation. Your wife has damaged you and your reputation and your career in ways that leave you much changed, I think. Few men who post here seem to have experienced quite what you have. And your present lawsuit is an indicator that more damage can yet occur.

The way forward is to look within and do something very different. If you can. (Skip mentioned this to you in a powerful post some months ago.) A viable agent of change is this very skilled psychologist.

I want to thank Notwendy for her stalwart contribution to this and other discussions here. Her empathy for all parties is steady and unwavering. Never has she forgotten the children. I'd say Notwendy and the family psychologist are on the same page and the same path.

[Cat Familiar]

No one was abused, controlled or had their safety to put jeopardy by you.  No one went hungry or would have.  No kids were triangulated by you.  Your kids saw you wouldnt take rude treatment.  

I would agree with all of this. However, this way of looking at this incident overlooks the emotional component of those involved.

Setting aside Mrs. FF's emotional response to being dropped off at the church with no money, let's imagine how FF's children might have seen this incident.

Mom is yelling at Dad and Dad was going to go to church with us. Dad drives off and leaves us with Mom. Mom is really upset now because she can't pay for our dinner. I don't know when Dad is coming back. Dad has never done this before. He's always gone to church dinner with us. Why isn't he here? Is he mad? What happens if he doesn't come back? How will we get home? How is Mom going to pay for our dinner? Mom is really mad now. Mom is saying bad things about Dad. Why did he do this? Where is he? When is he coming back? Did we do anything to make him mad at us? Why is this happening?

[KateCat]

Mom is yelling at Dad and Dad was going to go to church with us. Dad drives off and leaves us with Mom. Mom is really upset now because she can't pay for our dinner. I don't know when Dad is coming back. Dad has never done this before. He's always gone to church dinner with us. Why isn't he here? Is he mad? What happens if he doesn't come back? How will we get home? How is Mom going to pay for our dinner? Mom is really mad now. Mom is saying bad things about Dad. Why did he do this? Where is he? When is he coming back? Did we do anything to make him mad at us? Why is this happening?

I wonder if you could address this issue specifically, formflier? After all this time, I still can't tell whether you understand this at an emotional level or not.

[formflier]

The following is my perception only:

You family is indeed "on fire."  

Unfortunately... .I am in full agreement with this.

To be clear... .P has discussed divorce and separation with me.  She herself is divorced from a paranoid person and has children with him (her children are in their 30s now)  The clear message to me is "not now" and to evaluate after legal issues have progressed or settled.


She has talked to my L directly about the case(s) and I believe she has accurate view and understanding of matters at stake and impact on me and my family of various outcomes.

Her opinion is that a good outcome (which seems likely) of legal issues drastically reduces anxiety and tension in our household.  And would be much less shaming for my wife.

If there is a bad outcome, the guess is that my wife's current level of shame about her actions will skyrocket... .and that is scenario that I don't want to spend much time thinking about.  Nothing good down that path.

FF

[MaybeSo]

I copied and pasted the interaction onto a word document and changed the roles so that the husband is the one with the tone of voice at the end of the day, and the wife is the one coming home.  All other things being equal, including children present and presumption that the husband has BPD, a disorder triggered by abandonment and considerable deficits in emotion regulation.

I felt bothered reading the scenario even with the 'sexes' switched.  I still found the wallet interaction way overboard and unesesarily provocative given the context.

In either scenario, I see the "nons" responsibility as staying grounded, providing protection and normalcy for children, and maintaining boundaries.  The way I was taught to apply boundaries focused on defensive maneuvers, not offensive manuevers.  If my partner is doing something I find triggering, upsetting disrespectful, how do I want to take care of myself w/out adding fuel to the fire?  :)o I want to take a break, leave for a while etc. The last thing I would ever do in a situation like FFs writes about and with children around, is make any kind of provocative move or power play with a dysregulated partner.  The way I was taught about boundaries put the responsibility squarely on my shoulders to mind my own business and my own reactivity and to not wade into a territory where I'm demanding or making requests of a dysregulated person.  I can always take care of myself in a defensive maneuver, or I can use other tools provided, empathy, emotional validation, if I have the strength and I feel grounded enough to try it.  

In my own life, during the dark years w/ my partner when things were at there worst because I WAS ADDING FUEL TO FIRE... .we had young children in our care.  I never once did anything while the kids were around that might provoke an already dyregulated man.  I pulled power plays and all sorts of codependent drama plays when we were alone plenty in the worst years... .but never w/ children around.  Never. If he was being rude/disrespectful to ME,  I quietly excused myself and went elsewhere or busied myself elsewhere. Those kids are now young adults.  I think they respect me tremendously.  That means so much more to me than trying to extract something from their father while he's at his worst and having those kids witness that kind of drama.  They saw it already for years with him and their mom... .and there was no way I was going to put them through another version of crazy. I can't even imagine pulling the "wallet scene" with my partner that FF pulled with his wife, not in a million years.  Certainly not with kids there.

In fact, it would never occur to me in a million years to interact with any other adult the way the wallet scene reads in this thread. Maybe, maybe I might do something similar with a small child over toy or something, but even with a child, if it's cranky it probably needs to be held or taken to bed and not increase their dysregulation by making more demands or requests of them.  Usually that gets you even more of a melted down child. BPD is not dissimilar.  I have certainly had many interactions with pets where I am using the kind of behavior modification FF used w/ the wallet scene... .but that's with a pet I am trying to train.

My job is not make other adults show me respect or train them or modify their behavior.  That is not my job.  If I'm with an adult who seems upset I would ask about what is going on for them (inside) and see if there is something I could do to help them.  Friendly-like.   If it was partner at end of day, I'd assume they were tired/at end of rope and I'd be showing them that I care by asking them how they are and if I can help. Friendly-like.  If I got nowhere and they remained hostile w/ my best effort to be a friend, I'd move to defensive boundary and take distance in the least provocative way I could find.  If I felt my children were at risk, I'd stay to supervise and protect my children and keep low profile.    

FF was being asked to provide the money for the family outing that his family were with him to attend in the first place. The cash was for his family.  If he chose not to attend family function last minute as a boundary or to take care of self, there is no reason to w/hold the money from family unless it provides an opportunity for a power play.  This was a power play.  We can all as smart people find tremendously logical and even noble reasons to support behaviors that are neither productive or kind, and I think that it what is happening here in this case. All the logic in the world just bleeds out what is really needed here which is basic empathy and people skills.  

I also agree w/ writers here who are pointing out that damaged people often use basic, primitive means of gaining a sense of security with others that commonly include submissive roles such as offering themselves sexually.

I still contend there are men all over the world who came home to a cranky tired out of sorts wife who don't view it  through the lens of warfare.  

And there are many who do view it through the lens of warfare.  

What are the results?

We are all here, on a website designed to help people who have truly very dysfunctional relationships.

A really good book on this exact matter is The Anatomy of Peace by The Arbinger Institute.

Wishing everyone a very peaceful weekend.    

[formflier]

Please don't take this post as an argument "against" MaybeSo or me trying to prove her... .or anyone else wrong.  There is an "art" to how to deal with a pwBPD and I find it completely fascinating how some people can take the same principle (MaybeSo's quote below) and then when putting that principle into action... .the actions look completely different.

 The way I was taught to apply boundaries focused on defensive maneuvers, not offensive manuevers.  

Completely agree... .100%.  I use the analogy that it is my job to build a wall and make sure that wall is sturdy.  Then my partner has a choice to bang their head against the wall 1 time... or 100.


From an empathy point of view, I do care about my partner.  I have to balance that care with the knowledge of what happens when my partner chooses to bang her head on a boundary and sometimes the "door" opens due to banging of the head.  Am I being a loving partner if I give them the experience that banging their head works... .sometimes?

How does that apply to this situation?

My wallet.  My money.  My boundary.  The key to get through the boundary is well known.

The money in my wallet comes from "my account" (I don't use family debit card to get cash).  So, that does mean that when someone needs $5 for something at school... .it's "dad's money" and not "family".  I don't mention it or make a big deal about it.  

Specifically that means that in prior times when I have paid at church it was "dad's money".  The times when my wife paid... .I don't know where that cash came from.  She had two sources... .either is fine by me.

Power play:  Perhaps we would define this differently.  I would see this incident as a power play IF, I followed up the incident with a new set of rules.  Made sure that next Wed the cash came from the family account... .that the next time a kid asked for $5 for school I was very obvious about getting it from "the family account" vice "dad's wallet".

Perhaps some would call that example above "punishment" vice a "power play".


(Start of new thought)

Perhaps where I went on offense, or where I didn't do boundary enforcement correctly.

In the purest sense of "my view" I should have kept my wallet in my pants and not said anything in return to my wife until she "asked properly".

I can see how that taking the wallet out while I was verbalizing the boundary could be seen as provocative, offensive... .perhaps other words as well.

My goal was to try and "remind" her that she is the one with a choice.  From my "purest" point of view, the boundary is well known and it's not my job to remind her, it would be her responsibility to ask.

Perhaps this is something for me to consider for next time.  I'm sure there will be one... .hopefully will take a while.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

From what I've read here, boundaries are for protecting ourselves, not changing other's behavior. Your opening your wallet was contingent upon a behavioral change in your wife. Since she was dysregulating at the time, how likely was that to occur?

In principle, I would have had no issue with what you did, had it not concerned your children. From a theatric perspective, taking your wallet out, then putting it back, unopened, seems like an aggressive posture. Do you really want to escalate an already tense situation with your wife?

I've reread both of these threads. Your wife was cranky and spoke to you in an unpleasant way in front of your children. Yes, and ? 

I guess I don't really get what was so terrible about her behavior because this is the story of how my mother frequently behaved to my dad, in front of me.

Yeah, it's not pleasant. I'm sure you're tired of it, but I didn't read anything so awful she did, other than being impatient with your child and using a loud voice tone to both of you.

Disrespect is part and parcel of BPD and though we'd like that not to be true, to make a big scene when we feel we're not treated appropriately, certainly doesn't
improve your marriage, nor will it guarantee respectful behavior in the future.

And I'd bet money that your children saw your behavior as "making a scene."

Yeah, it's easy for me to sit here and tell you these things. I'm not dealing with an unpleasant person and eight kids on a daily basis.

What concerns me is that you default to an authoritarian stance in these situations, cling tightly to your position, and seem resistant to looking at it from another angle.

Has it occurred to you that your insistence upon tightly maintained structure might cause rebellious behavior in your wife, trying to undermine that structure.

If I were in her shoes, that incident would likely see me plotting some kind of revenge for being humiliated both in front of the children and the church.


You haven't addressed imagining how this specific incident might have played out from your children's perspective.

[formflier]

From what I've read here, boundaries are for protecting ourselves, not changing other's behavior.  

And our money as well?  Stuff within out boundaries?

I do see the perspective where you could say I was trying to change a behavior.  But... .if you look at my analogy... .my point of view.  I build the wall... .my wife decides to change behavior or not.  Changed behavior is a byproduct of the wall, it is not the purpose.

In other words... .my wife is the one with the choice of 1 "head bang"... 100... .or 1000. 


The more I think about it... .I absolutely made an error by taking out my wallet.  To be clear... I didn't wave it around or "taunt" with it.  Totally agree on that.


Technically... .this incident had two boundaries.

1.  I determined that it was no longer a good idea for me to be close to my wife and I needed time alone.  Those were my feelings... .I was protecting them.  This was Wed night.  This had been going on since Sunday night.  "this" being over the top disrespect and nastiness.


2.  How to get to my money in my wallet.



I'll do some thinking on how this may have looked from their perspectives.  Post about it later.

I'm off to swim for a while.  Try to work some stress out.  

FF

[KateCat]

You may recall I've been a long-time proponent of you reading the postings of moderator livednlearned in which she discusses her son's experiences growing up in a difficult family situation and her work with supporting his emotional healing. It's powerful stuff, and I read it with great interested and to great benefit, even though my experiences with an unstable parent are many decades in the past.

If you haven't had a chance to read these yet, now would be a great time. I would go so far as to say that you cannot do without this type of knowledge as you move forward.

[formflier]

I have read them... .but it has been a while.  I will revisit them.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF, it just occurred to me what I think is the "hole" in your communication style that causes several of us women to repeat the same point over and over, thinking that you're not "getting it."

For example, I pointed out that Mrs. FF might have been embarrassed to be without dinner money at the church.

If you had said something like, "Well, her embarrassment was not my concern. I wanted to be consistent with my boundaries," I would have felt that you actually considered her emotional state by your response and I would have respected that and not attempted to rephrase my thought.

As it is, you "chuckle" (which is dismissive and invalidating) and say you feel like Daniel in the lion's den. Yeah, I get that you feel criticized by a number of women and I think that's quite accurate.

However, we in this community are trying to hold up mirrors so that others can see their blind spots. We all have them. What I sense in both this thread and the baby stroller thread is that by not appearing to consider someone's suggestion (usually a woman's) and doubling down on your opinion, you come across as close-minded and stubborn.

Really, all it would take would be a phrase like, "I hadn't thought of that (or I had thought of that or I don't care that person felt that way)... .but I still think what I did was right for me." Respect and done. That way the person giving you the suggestion feels like you've actually taken a moment to consider what they've said.

Since this dynamic popped up in the thread a few months ago and the church dinner thread, I would tend to believe that this might be a common occurrence when you have a different opinion than your wife. And because of how it plays to women, who in this culture are accustomed to being invalidated by a man when giving an opinion--it happens to all women at some point, often frequently, this might be causing untoward consequences in your marital communication.

[Notwendy]

The Daniel in the Lion's Den analogy got my attention because Daniel was a righteous man who found himself surrounded by lions potentially about to attack, but God was on his side.

The unfortunate part of this is that, as Cat said, the numerous posters who seemed to be saying the same thing to you were not a pack of lionesses about to attack you. We were trying to help you.

I have no interest attacking you and we are not a pack. Several posters ( many of them women) had a similar response to what happened. Yes, many of us are women- but we are different women, live in different places, different circumstances- and to me it would be unusual for several people to hold a similar point of view if there wasn't some point worth considering in it.

I may not see the Bible in the same way as you, but I see the different characters as humans with human traits that are represented in all of us. The Daniel story is an important one about faith, but Daniel in relation to the lions was an innocent victim. When we take victim position, we are on the Karpan triangle.

One character who portrays a very human side of us is Esau, who in a moment of hunger, traded something precious ( his birthright) and intangible for the immediate need to eat. He later realized what he did and regretted it. I would be willing to bet that most of us have, in the moment, being tired, hungry, angry, stressed- have made decisions in the moment that have hurt our relationships with others. Yet, for many of us, these hurts can be repaired- starting with a sincere apology, and an attempt to repair.

My parents did a lot for me, and like you, I know that my father did the best he could with his situation at hand. However, there were numerous incidences where we kids were caught in the wake of the hostility between my parents. One reason I commented on the church dinner was because, to me, being a family together meant something to me. Yet, it seems these times would fall apart. I can recall one incident ( out of many) at a graduation where my father got angry at my mother and stomped out of the event. I cried the rest of the afternoon. It was my graduation but is became all about her, and his response, all about him.

I think all parents have spats, and a few events over the years probably doesn't affect kids much. Yet, these events accumulated. Sometimes my father seemed so focused on the drama with my mother that it felt he couldn't see what was right in front of him- children who loved him - who desperately wanted him to know us, who we were. But if we expressed any feelings or distress over the issues with my mother, we were dismissed.

As Cat pointed out- it is the dismissal that is upsetting. Because the person doesn't feel heard or seen. (dismissal is different from disagreement).

Living with a pw PBD can put us in an emotional state of survival, and this state does change how we respond. When we are in survival mode, we reserve all our energies for self preservation and in the case of children, basic survival for them. There is little room to pay attention to things like empathy, feelings. Your war analogy is similar to this- and it makes sense. You probably don't sit down with your platoon to talk about feelings on the front line. I can understand that a family with 8 kids and a BPD mother would be in survival mode a lot of the time.

Essau made a decision when in "survivor" mode. Although he's portrayed as less of a person than the high minded Daniel, as humans, we have the characteristics of both of them. The decision you made in the moment, in survival mode, was exactly what we humans do. However, the precious, intangible trade off was the relationship with your kids, who didn't just need dinner. They needed a peaceful family dinner at church with their whole family together.

These moments are collective in a child's mind. I was hoping to call attention to the relationship here, so you don't trade your "birthright" in a moment of anger with your wife. 

[teapay]

FF,  I’d say your military background, perspective and training are a great asset for you in your circumstances.   I also served active duty Army from 2002 through 2013 and I don’t think I would have got through my difficulties without it.  It is all very applicable in so many ways.  I’m assuming you were an officer, which would make it even more applicable.

The teapay protocol is directed at men who are still married to women with clinical BPD (dx or undx) and who have children.  It is not directed at females or unmarried men with or without children or exes.   These groups are qualitatively different.  It is not the FF approach but is influenced by it since the FF approach is correct in many ways.  Over the long term it is guaranteed to improve the quality of life for the male non.  It’s primary focus is on the quality of life and health of the male non regardless of whether the relationship improves or not and by default benefits the children.  If the BPD benefits from it, which frequently occurs, it is an added bonus.

[Notwendy]

Teapay,

I think structure and consistency, not compromising your principles are beneficial and important. Do you think there is a way to combine this in relationship to the pwBPD while also realizing that the kids most likely do not have it and need a different relationship with their parents?

I fully agree that taking care of the non is essential and benefits the children. Certainly in the higherarchy of needs- their physical and safety needs are key. If the spouse with BPD threatens the family resources, the welfare of the parent who provides the resources, then protecting this becomes a primary concern.

I hope it is clear that I am not being critical of FF's approach in general but in this one incident- as when children were involved, their feelings are too.

My mother's mental illness resulted in financial problems and overall chaos for the family. We understood that my father had to work- and that his welfare benefited all of us. I also agree that him walking off was better than had he stayed and argued with her.

It is unfortunate that my parents couldn't lay down arms for a couple of hours so events like graduations were memorable in better ways. However, given the choice of that, or a roof over my head, the roof was by far, more essential.

Although it  I am speaking from the perspective of a woman, that perspective includes one of a daughter. I give him full credit for my welfare as a child. He did what he had to do and he did it well- like you and FF are doing. But I don't know if he ever realized how much his kids loved him and wanted him to see that too.

[KateCat]

teapay, do you have any thoughts regarding the crises formflier seems to experiencing presently? (Family, church community, mounting legal bills?)

As things seem not to be improving for him, do you see any adjustment to the formflier protocol that he might make? It's hard not to believe that most everything here is interconnected, and that if there is to be improvement it will likely need to come from him.

I'm stumped and can't imagine anything really helping the family other than a therapeutic separation between the parents for a significant period of time--in order to reach for that structure and consistency of which you speak. Just now those things seem elusive.

[Notwendy]

Children need structure, sustenance , and boundaries growing up, and a firm consistent parent provides that.

There is much written about the emotional immaturity of a PWBPD and it would make sense to approach them at their level.

This works also when children are young. However if they don't have BPD they eventually outgrow their parent with BPD.

Over time, my father used what worked for him in relation to my mother. Eventually the sound of an emotional woman triggered this response. But the voice sometimes didn't come from my mother but from me. I recall a time as a teen when I felt I was emotionally older than she was. I was parentified at that point having taken on the role of caretaker to her.

Yet my concerns were dismissed by my father. Just another emotional female. He acted like I was attacking him. Sometimes he would accidentally yell at me calling me by my mother's name.

Unfortunately as he got older he continued to react this way to the voice of an adult female in his life, but it wasn't his BPD wife. It was me.

It doesn't affect me if anyone here considers my perspective beyond that of an emotional female , but it might one day affect a daughter. If an arsenal is necessary in a marriage - please just be sure it's aimed at the target you choose.