Feeling doubt but trying to stay strong

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Thanks both.

Jaded - the way he blew it up on the initial time we talked about it was just to keep going round in circles, getting more and more irate... I was trying to de-escalate by telling him I wanted to hear how he felt about it and understand his side... but he couldn't hear me... he was so upset I'd questioned it. He kept going and going with it, saying he hadn't done anything wrong, that I didn't understand etc, then he stormed off in the middle of dinner and went to sleep for over an hour. When he woke up, I told him that we needed to work on trying to prevent discussions from getting so over the top, and that I was willing to approach conversations differently, and if he could tell me what else he needed in those conversations so they didn't get so intense... he reacted by ending the relationship impulsively. Only to change his mind the next day... but then finish it again a day later.

So yeah, that's what it looked like when he blew conversations up. Yes, I did have a lot of, 'stop being so serious' 'why do have to talk about this NOW' 'I don't understand why this is an issue' 'why do you have to talk about absolutely EVERYTHING' 'you're a real over-thinker aren't you'... that kind of thing. Just needing to shut any conversations down that required any introspection.

Yes, the silence the other day was definitely telling. He has since maintained that he hasn't done anything wrong and tried to make it look like I'm the one who is being out of line by even questioning it, but after a day of tussling on message (which is the first time I've ever really bitten back, but at this point I'm angry and felt the need to say how I felt), I sent him a long message reminding him that he's not a bad person, he's a good person with a heart and feelings and that I don't know why he's holding his position so strongly. He submitted finally and admitted that he would not like it if it was the other way around and I was doing that, but said he was defensive because his intentions were to just talk to this person, no other hidden motive. I don't even care whether that's the truth at this point, but I appreciate that he tried to give me a moment of validation.

SaltyDawg - thank you for the encouragement. It's definitely over now - I won't be re-entering anything with him now (famous last words!!!) and any contact now is tying loose ends up. He increased the pressure last week quite a lot, and did/said some messed up things that were quite manipulative, but I think he's done now. He was angry and he normally does spiteful things at the end of relationships (he usually posts something nasty on social media... once he even posted a song about being glad your ex is dead when I wouldn't take him back straight away after we broke up... these are the stories I need to remember so I don't ever go back!)... but I think since I have reached out to try and encourage him to be peaceful and remember he's a good person, he's now sitting in shame.

I will definitely explore what I can in therapy - I feel like I'm on top of a lot of those people pleasing/controlling traits, I have a lot of awareness around them and can usually spot if I'm going that way and adjust, but this situation has made me realise I need to look much deeper. Just the fact that I was SO attracted to someone who had so much dysfunction is something I need to unravel. I don't think I've ever been so attracted to anyone, but I know that's a big part story for so many people in these toxic dynamics.

Nature is my self care too - usually bush walks, ocean swims, sunrise meditations... your self care routine sounds like bliss.

Thanks again for being a supportive ear.

[seekingtheway]

Thanks both.

Jaded - the way he blew it up on the initial time we talked about it was just to keep going round in circles, getting more and more irate... I was trying to de-escalate by telling him I wanted to hear how he felt about it and understand his side... but he couldn't hear me... he was so upset I'd questioned it. He kept going and going with it, saying he hadn't done anything wrong, that I didn't understand etc, then he stormed off in the middle of dinner and went to sleep for over an hour. When he woke up, I told him that we needed to work on trying to prevent discussions from getting so over the top, and that I was willing to approach conversations differently, and if he could tell me what else he needed in those conversations so they didn't get so intense... he reacted by ending the relationship impulsively. Only to change his mind the next day... but then finish it again a day later.

So yeah, that's what it looked like when he blew conversations up. Yes, I did have a lot of, 'stop being so serious' 'why do have to talk about this NOW' 'I don't understand why this is an issue' 'why do you have to talk about absolutely EVERYTHING' 'you're a real over-thinker aren't you'... that kind of thing. Just needing to shut any conversations down that required any introspection.

Yes, the silence the other day was definitely telling. He has since maintained that he hasn't done anything wrong and tried to make it look like I'm the one who is being out of line by even questioning it, but after a day of tussling on message (which is the first time I've ever really bitten back, but at this point I'm angry and felt the need to say how I felt), I sent him a long message reminding him that he's not a bad person, he's a good person with a heart and feelings and that I don't know why he's holding his position so strongly. He submitted finally and admitted that he would not like it if it was the other way around and I was doing that, but said he was defensive because his intentions were to just talk to this person, no other hidden motive. I don't even care whether that's the truth at this point, but I appreciate that he tried to give me a moment of validation.

SaltyDawg - thank you for the encouragement. It's definitely over now - I won't be re-entering anything with him now (famous last words!!!) and any contact now is tying loose ends up. He increased the pressure last week quite a lot, and did/said some messed up things that were quite manipulative, but I think he's done now. He was angry and he normally does spiteful things at the end of relationships (he usually posts something nasty on social media... once he even posted a song about being glad your ex is dead when I wouldn't take him back straight away after we broke up... these are the stories I need to remember so I don't ever go back!)... but I think since I have reached out to try and encourage him to be peaceful and remember he's a good person, he's now sitting in shame.

I will definitely explore what I can in therapy - I feel like I'm on top of a lot of those people pleasing/controlling traits, I have a lot of awareness around them and can usually spot if I'm going that way and adjust, but this situation has made me realise I need to look much deeper. Just the fact that I was SO attracted to someone who had so much dysfunction is something I need to unravel. I don't think I've ever been so attracted to anyone, but I know that's a big part story for so many people in these toxic dynamics.

Nature is my self care too - usually bush walks, ocean swims, sunrise meditations... your self care routine sounds like bliss.

Thanks again for being a supportive ear.

[jaded7]

Thanks both.

Jaded - the way he blew it up on the initial time we talked about it was just to keep going round in circles, getting more and more irate... I was trying to de-escalate by telling him I wanted to hear how he felt about it and understand his side... but he couldn't hear me... he was so upset I'd questioned it. He kept going and going with it, saying he hadn't done anything wrong, that I didn't understand etc, then he stormed off in the middle of dinner and went to sleep for over an hour. When he woke up, I told him that we needed to work on trying to prevent discussions from getting so over the top, and that I was willing to approach conversations differently, and if he could tell me what else he needed in those conversations so they didn't get so intense... he reacted by ending the relationship impulsively. Only to change his mind the next day... but then finish it again a day later.

So yeah, that's what it looked like when he blew conversations up. Yes, I did have a lot of, 'stop being so serious' 'why do have to talk about this NOW' 'I don't understand why this is an issue' 'why do you have to talk about absolutely EVERYTHING' 'you're a real over-thinker aren't you'... that kind of thing. Just needing to shut any conversations down that required any introspection.

Yes, the silence the other day was definitely telling. He has since maintained that he hasn't done anything wrong and tried to make it look like I'm the one who is being out of line by even questioning it, but after a day of tussling on message (which is the first time I've ever really bitten back, but at this point I'm angry and felt the need to say how I felt), I sent him a long message reminding him that he's not a bad person, he's a good person with a heart and feelings and that I don't know why he's holding his position so strongly. He submitted finally and admitted that he would not like it if it was the other way around and I was doing that, but said he was defensive because his intentions were to just talk to this person, no other hidden motive. I don't even care whether that's the truth at this point, but I appreciate that he tried to give me a moment of validation.

SaltyDawg - thank you for the encouragement. It's definitely over now - I won't be re-entering anything with him now (famous last words!!!) and any contact now is tying loose ends up. He increased the pressure last week quite a lot, and did/said some messed up things that were quite manipulative, but I think he's done now. He was angry and he normally does spiteful things at the end of relationships (he usually posts something nasty on social media... once he even posted a song about being glad your ex is dead when I wouldn't take him back straight away after we broke up... these are the stories I need to remember so I don't ever go back!)... but I think since I have reached out to try and encourage him to be peaceful and remember he's a good person, he's now sitting in shame.

I will definitely explore what I can in therapy - I feel like I'm on top of a lot of those people pleasing/controlling traits, I have a lot of awareness around them and can usually spot if I'm going that way and adjust, but this situation has made me realise I need to look much deeper. Just the fact that I was SO attracted to someone who had so much dysfunction is something I need to unravel. I don't think I've ever been so attracted to anyone, but I know that's a big part story for so many people in these toxic dynamics.

Nature is my self care too - usually bush walks, ocean swims, sunrise meditations... your self care routine sounds like bliss.

Thanks again for being a supportive ear.

The bold parts SeekingTheWay...yep, yep. The trying to make him feel calmer, the active listening that doesn't work, check.The storming off, check. Notice how you told him 'we' need to work on not letting the conversations get over the top? It's not my sense that you were over the top here, you were simply doing trying to be heard. You even asked him what he needed in these conversations, and that didn't work. Been there, as have man of us.

And I knew when I wrote it you would get those kinds of responses. I'm nothing if not a good student in my reading and video watching! All, if you look at them, are blaming of YOU for bringing a concern (a valid one) up. They address nothing in your concern, rather they attack your bringing up the concern in the first place...your right to do that. These responses are simply to DARVO you into being on the defensive and having to defend yourself, when you shouldn't have to. You should be able to bring up concerns and be heard.

Then, after massive amounts of work and pain and suffering, he admits you had a point.

Nature is my refuge as well. Nature is so profoundly healing. My goal is to get to the Hoh National Forest in Washington State sometime soon. It's one of the quietest places on earth, as measure by long-term sound readings. Very few planes fly over the area, and no human habitations are nearby. Just the sound of nature...and solitude. It sound lovely to me.

[Pensive1]

Thanks for the update, seekingtheway. I think you're handling this well. The pain will pass. I went to limited contact with my BPD ex three months ago, and the pain/depression/sense of loss that I initially felt is gradually lifting.

Dealing with the dishonesty is hard. I think the pain and emotional whirlwind that a person with BPD (even subclinical BPD) experiences, along with the difficulty in fully taking responsibility, almost inevitably leads to dishonesty. My stepson (my ex's son), who has BPD, characterizes himself as the most honest guy around. He led his most recent girlfriend to believe that, until she found all the sex videos he was making with others, while he was supposed to be in a monogamous relationship with her. I love him, but anyone in a serious romantic relationship with him will invariably get hurt.

You mentioned that nature is where you find your peace. That's true of me as well, and I found that even in winter, one can regularly go hiking in natural areas. This past weekend, I attended a course on winter tree identification. And I'm teaching myself winter herbaceous plant identification. A couple weekends ago, I attended an event watching thousands of migrating sandhill cranes. And I've lined up some hiking buddies, so I have people to go with if I want. Up until a few years ago, I rarely went to natural areas in winter, and it's been nice to discover that's an option.

[seekingtheway]

Yes, definitely the shame he feels so keenly causes him to not be honest - I saw that in so many aspects of his communication. I tried so hard to always be a safe, non-judgemental space for him and asked for his thoughts/feelings lots, but so much of it stays inside for him. It's not how it is for me, I am an easy and open communicator, but I feel for him that he has the intentions there, but literally doesn't feel safe enough to express his needs/feelings... so it comes out in dysfunctional ways instead.

Not feeling so strong and clear today - one of my friends who knows the full story was telling me how frustrated she is because everyone in the community has this image of who my ex is - he's pretty visible in the community and does a lot of really good things... it's really hard that this amazing side of him that everyone admires is something I got to enjoy regularly... The nature thing - that's what we did together a lot too - his work is very involved in plants and nature, which was a big part of the attraction for me. He's very inspiring. And gives so much back to our community. I am aware that part of this is his need to be seen a certain way, but I feel a lot of it was real. I'm going to miss our connection so much.

I read somewhere once that the things you miss the most in a person is just a reflection of something you wish you had in yourself... so I'm going to have to keep that in mind and weave these aspects that I'm going to miss about him into my own life...

[Pensive1]

Yeah, the load of shame inherent in BPD drives so much of the dysfunctional behavior.

re: "The nature thing - that's what we did together a lot too...which was a big part of the attraction for me...
so I'm going to have to keep that in mind and weave these aspects that I'm going to miss about him into my own life..."

A minor remark - my ex and I would go walking in natural areas together every Sunday. We both enjoyed it tremendously. That was hard for me to give up - one reason it took so long for me to go to minimal contact. Given how much it meant to me, I've made a concerted point of getting out to natural areas since my ex and I stopped doing it together. It's not entirely the same - my ex and I were pretty perfectly suited in terms of pace, what caught our eyes and what we were interested in, etc. But still, I'm very glad I've continued going out, even if it's alone or with other friends.

[seekingtheway]

Thanks Pensive - I agree with you, this is going to be a really tough aspect for me to let go of as well. We were perfectly suited in our interests and unless he invented a problem, we didn't generally have any... time and conversation was so easily spent together. I'm frustrated at the waste of this connection. I'm feeling the addictive pull already. And observing as my brain is going every which way, trying to justify the idea of going back, then feeling angry with him, and then swinging to seeing sense again. It's exhausting. I have journaled all the way along this process, so reading that back can help me keep perspective. I'll have to read it later!!!

Your comment about your stepson is interesting. The darker underbelly of a person, which we all have, can be so at odds with the light side they put forwards.

It's always good to get out into nature alone rather than not at all. I'm very social, but also usually happy in my own company... though because of my current situation with my son, we are often quite isolated. I'm lucky to have the ocean at my doorstep, and a ton of beautiful bushland areas to hike around so whenever I have a free day, that's where I am...

Tomorrow night I'm going to a lake to do a women's circle to connect and reflect on the last year - plus I regularly go to group meditation with a different group of women... plus I have a trip planned this weekend to see a wonderful friend who lives in the bush... this is the stuff that holds me up... I do have some amazing, very emotionally healthy and supportive  women in my life.

Years ago, I was one of those people who watched others stuck in toxic on-off relationships with people who clearly weren't good for them, and it felt so simple looking on. I know my friends probably feel that way watching me. The solution seems so simple. Just walk away, have no contact, heal, move onto a better place.

I'm interested to hear why you chose limited contact with your ex? How much contact do you generally have? Have you found this approach to allow you to heal okay?

[Pensive1]

Seekingtheway,

I chose limited contact because:
1. the ongoing extensive contact we were having (for two years after she monkeybranched) just perpetuated the situation. It left me in constant emotional pain and unable to move on. Things had been slowly moving in a romantic direction with a wonderful woman I was friends with, but then she understandably broke it off, because she perceived that my ex and I hadn't fully let go of each other.
2. I didn't go no contact because I didn't perceive that as necessary. We were together for 25 years and basically have a child in common (her son - my stepson), who has been in ongoing crisis for two years now (due to meth addiction). I'm one of his primary supports, and my ex and I need to communicate around this. And I care about my ex and wanted to maintain some contact, and would always want to know if serious medical issues arose for her, etc.

I told her I wanted to end contact with the following exceptions: 1. We would continue to communicate as necessary around anything involving her son. He lives in another city, and if a need arose to drive down to see him (he periodically ends up in major crises), I'd be willing to go with her. 2. Her mother is dying, and she had been my mother-in-law for 25 years. I told my ex that I'd like to go to her funeral. 3. If any significant medical situation arose for my ex (we're both older and have various medical problems), I would always want to know.

In that conversation about limiting contact, in response to a request of hers, I agreed that we could hang out a bit, and potentially go for a walk in a natural area, on one day every two months.

So far, this has all basically worked out OK, and has allowed me to heal. She has tested the boundaries a number of times (e.g. repeatedly asking to go out for walks), and I've reasserted them. In setting the limits, framing it all in terms of it being too painful for me was useful - people with BPD can understand language grounded in emotions. That helped minimize angry responses from her.

I did end up spending a bit more time with her than anticipated, because my stepson came up for Thanksgiving. I had initially planned to celebrate Thanksgiving with other friends, but celebrated it with her and my stepson at their request (and that went pretty well).

As I had expected, I went into some substantial depression after we ended most contact and the activities we were doing together. It was a loss. But I made a point of reaching out to friends, arranging to get out to natural areas, etc. And the depression has now largely lifted - I'm feeling better and getting more work done. Now I just have to lose a few pounds, because I dealt with the depression in part by overeating, LOL.

And I'll note that, just because this minimal contact approach has worked out for me so far, doesn't mean that it's the right choice for everyone.

[SaltyDawg]

SaltyDawg - thank you for the encouragement. It's definitely over now - I won't be re-entering anything with him now (famous last words!!!) and any contact now is tying loose ends up. He increased the pressure last week quite a lot, and did/said some messed up things that were quite manipulative, but I think he's done now. He was angry and he normally does spiteful things at the end of relationships (he usually posts something nasty on social media... once he even posted a song about being glad your ex is dead when I wouldn't take him back straight away after we broke up... these are the stories I need to remember so I don't ever go back!)... but I think since I have reached out to try and encourage him to be peaceful and remember he's a good person, he's now sitting in shame.

Thank you for sharing.  Never forget, but don't let it consume you either.  With regards to the 'famous last words' - what can you do to make sure they do not become famous?


I will definitely explore what I can in therapy - I feel like I'm on top of a lot of those people pleasing/controlling traits, I have a lot of awareness around them and can usually spot if I'm going that way and adjust, but this situation has made me realise I need to look much deeper.

I too am a people pleaser, one of many traits of being a codependent.  I am here offering up advice, attempting to please you (and others here as well).  It is a trait that I rather like, and if it is healthy and can be something good (like when I volunteer, including here on this board and elsewhere).


Just the fact that I was SO attracted to someone who had so much dysfunction is something I need to unravel. I don't think I've ever been so attracted to anyone, but I know that's a big part story for so many people in these toxic dynamics.


I can personally attest this 'toxic' dynamic is very addicting (look up 'love bombing'), my current uBPDw is my 2nd BPD relationship, and I know that I attract 'crazy' and I had to few boundaries to prevent this.  It is important to be able to recognize these traits in order to avoid them, otherwise they will repeat, as it did in my case, as my last relationship was with a uBPD/uNPD-exgf.


Nature is my self care too - usually bush walks, ocean swims, sunrise meditations... your self care routine sounds like bliss.

Yours sounds wonderful too, I love both the mountains and the sea (hence my alias).  I also have volunteer work here and at similar groups as well, as I love to help others, and attend therapy sessions for myself, as well as couples with my uBPD wife as part of my self-care routine as well.


Thanks again for being a supportive ear.

You're welcome we are here for you.

Take care with self-care.

[seekingtheway]

Thank you both - yes, Salty, the lovebombing is something I'm very familiar with, and know this is the part that keeps so many people hooked into the cycle, feeling like you've met your ultimate partner and soulmate. This is where I'm at right now, stuck in the memories of the lovebombing stage - of all the promises and the intense declarations of love and devotion - he would do this after every episode of disconnection, and there was a lot of those over the 2.5 years of knowing him.

I recognise that the lovebombing stages were filling a deep void for me... the 'promise' of the relationship of my dreams, because I can see the reality was anything but the relationship of my dreams. But the words, the promises, and moments of deep connection were hitting something pretty deep within me. My previous relationship - 16 years married to a man I consider to be quite predictable and stable. We had so many interests in common and had lots of fun together and easily enjoyed each other's company, but he was so emotionally avoidant that I found it really hard to get close to him on an emotional and physical level. I felt very lonely... then came a separation during Covid and issues with my son, and it had been a very very long time since I had felt any true intimacy. So I get why this sudden injection of intense love and admiration and attention was like a drug to me.

Interesting to hear your story and journey Pensive - I didn't realise it was such a long relationship that you were exiting. I can imagine that it would be very difficult to disentangle from such a long and attached partnership, and the practically of doing limited contact sounds like a healthy one overall.

I feel like I'm going to have to go no contact with my ex in the coming days. We've had some limited contact, but it's messing with my head. Even though I felt so sure it's all over, he started throwing out hints just a few days ago that he just needs time to sort himself out and figure out how to do a relationship right - like he should have done when I suggested it a few months ago... and he's suddenly calling me for chats, messaging all the time, but then he changes his tack again, and starts to shut down and move away.

Every time I allow myself to even consider the idea of him changing and there being some kind of future, my anxiety is lifted and the grieving is temporarily suspended... so I get why I'm allowing this toxic cycle to keep happening.. but... I can't do it any more. I told him I couldn't be friends straight away, said we needed to agree exactly where we stood from hereon...

We had a 'closure' chat yesterday, and he just talked about himself the whole time, and was basically listing all the things that he would have had to make an effort with in order to keep the relationship going... insinuating that any effort was too much effort... he wasn't nasty, but there just wasn't any care of understanding for me... I said a few times that the whole process had really messed with me and hurt me, and left me wondering what the heck had just happened, and what was real and what wasn't, and whether I was someone he really loved, or if he just couldn't be alone. He had no answer, no reassurance or validation to give.

I came off the call seething, and I sent him an abrupt message to basically tell him that's what you do for people you love - make effort for them and that clearly he didn't really care for me and that I wouldn't be in touch with him again.

I am feeling angry today - at myself mainly, but also at him. Angry that I still have feelings for him, and angry that he's played with my heart and I've let him do it. Angry at the loss of all the things that he promised - that were never based in reality and I never would have received, but it's like those promises are burned into my head, like someone offering you all the things you've ever wanted on a plate, and just as you're about to take it, it gets snatched away, and then repeats the same game another 10 times. Insanity-making stuff really.

[SaltyDawg]

Thank you both - yes, Salty, the lovebombing is something I'm very familiar with, and know this is the part that keeps so many people hooked into the cycle, feeling like you've met your ultimate partner and soulmate. This is where I'm at right now, stuck in the memories of the lovebombing stage - of all the promises and the intense declarations of love and devotion - he would do this after every episode of disconnection, and there was a lot of those over the 2.5 years of knowing him.

Up until about a year ago, I was there for two decades.  For a while, she was my 'ultimate partner and soulmate' - I married her for those very reasons.  First indication things were awry was 5 weeks after we got married, two weeks after the 3 week honeymoon ended with her first suicide attempt/gesture, that I thought was an unbelievable joke, I grabbed the 10" kitchen knife out of her hands (no resistance) that she was holding next to her wrist and then she told me I wasn't supposed to behave that way - it was like a bad dream, she immediately reverted back to the love bombing, after I told her I felt 'bait and switch' and she continued to sink her emotional claws into me.  It was like she was feeding on my soul, and I enjoyed every bit of it.


I recognise that the lovebombing stages were filling a deep void for me... the 'promise' of the relationship of my dreams, because I can see the reality was anything but the relationship of my dreams. But the words, the promises, and moments of deep connection were hitting something pretty deep within me. My previous relationship - 16 years married to a man I consider to be quite predictable and stable. We had so many interests in common and had lots of fun together and easily enjoyed each other's company, but he was so emotionally avoidant that I found it really hard to get close to him on an emotional and physical level. I felt very lonely... then came a separation during Covid and issues with my son, and it had been a very very long time since I had felt any true intimacy. So I get why this sudden injection of intense love and admiration and attention was like a drug to me.

It is an 'addiction', I have described it that way - so I can really relate to your 'drug' comment.  Regarding your exH, you may want to unpack what you shared with me with a therapist - you are attracted to a man who is 'so emotionally avoidant'.  When I met my wife, she wasn't, but now she is - I am wondering when you met your exH if he wasn't avoidant either, but slowly became that way over a period of years?  My individual therapist has made the observation that I attract the same kind of people, albeit outwardly very different.  It may be worth some effort to figuring out the similarities and differences between these two relationships before going into another.


I feel like I'm going to have to go no contact with my ex in the coming days. We've had some limited contact, but it's messing with my head. Even though I felt so sure it's all over, he started throwing out hints just a few days ago that he just needs time to sort himself out and figure out how to do a relationship right - like he should have done when I suggested it a few months ago... and he's suddenly calling me for chats, messaging all the time, but then he changes his tack again, and starts to shut down and move away.

It sounds like he is reaching out to fill his own void; however, when he gets to close, he becomes engulfed and then shuts down - it is a never ending cycle, that you have now recognized.  Learn from this.


Every time I allow myself to even consider the idea of him changing and there being some kind of future, my anxiety is lifted and the grieving is temporarily suspended... so I get why I'm allowing this toxic cycle to keep happening.. but... I can't do it any more. I told him I couldn't be friends straight away, said we needed to agree exactly where we stood from hereon...

I am glad you are aware of this cycle, it took me more than two decades to figure it out.  I unfortunately 'allow this toxic cycle' as it fills my own personal need of not being abandoned - a symptom that is not exclusive to being borderline, but codependent (according to Google >90% are) and other conditions as well.  It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders.


We had a 'closure' chat yesterday, and he just talked about himself the whole time, and was basically listing all the things that he would have had to make an effort with in order to keep the relationship going... insinuating that any effort was too much effort... he wasn't nasty, but there just wasn't any care of understanding for me... I said a few times that the whole process had really messed with me and hurt me, and left me wondering what the heck had just happened, and what was real and what wasn't, and whether I was someone he really loved, or if he just couldn't be alone. He had no answer, no reassurance or validation to give.

I think you have the answer to what you want, you are 'too much effort' for him.  Like most borderlines, all they can think of is themselves, in my wife's case she is looking for someone to care for her without any reciprocity for them to care for me.


I came off the call seething, and I sent him an abrupt message to basically tell him that's what you do for people you love - make effort for them and that clearly he didn't really care for me and that I wouldn't be in touch with him again.

I am feeling angry today - at myself mainly, but also at him. Angry that I still have feelings for him, and angry that he's played with my heart and I've let him do it. Angry at the loss of all the things that he promised - that were never based in reality and I never would have received, but it's like those promises are burned into my head, like someone offering you all the things you've ever wanted on a plate, and just as you're about to take it, it gets snatched away, and then repeats the same game another 10 times. Insanity-making stuff really.

I can see you how you would be extremely angered by such behaviors, and they are valid feelings as I have similar feelings.  Anger is a healthy feeling in this situation.  You might be starting the grieving process of the loss of this relationship.  I know how you feel, it was snatched away from me in 2006, and I am still expecting it to come back, with continual promises for it to come back (even the couple's therapist is promising this of my wife in the past week), yet it doesn't come back.  I feel that I am way too stupid as I am staying in this relationship until my son launches in 6-7 years time.

I am in the process of slowly detaching emotionally, have a plan that is evolving depending on what she does and does not do.  There has been significant improvement; however, I feel that we are around 1/3 to 1/2 way there, and if there is no further improvement it will fail.  What is difficult in my situation, she knows its messed up, and she thinks she has put in a herculean effort which I perceive to be a half-assed one.  I have pity for her, empathy for her, and I really want it to work, there has been some progress, but not enough, and that is too much for her.  I have repeatedly asked for +/-1/2 of her love bombing phase, I would be more than satisfied with 1/5 of that effort, and even find 1/10 that effort to be workable, but not 1/700 to 1/100th of her love bombing phase which is where it is now.

Good luck on moving on.

Take care with self care.

SD

[seekingtheway]

Wow, Salty, that is one heck of a story - so you're still together after doing a few decades together, but you're not getting the benefit of any of the passionate, loving parts of your wife? That must be tough. Because that's the part that makes all the hard parts somewhat worthwhile. I hope it goes the way you want it to go, but also glad to hear you have a plan in the making incase it doesn't. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

I see a lot of my clinging behaviours rooted in my anxious attachment style - which I thought I had made big strides in healing before this relationship, but am now seeing I have a lot more work to do. Fear of abandonment is something I've worked on in therapy quite a lot, I know exactly where it's come from in my history. Once I'm out of this relationship entirely, I'll be able to heal it again, I think.

I feel for me - I do see all the dynamics at play, from his side and mine... I see the logic of the situation, but for some reason, I have not been strong in following through on what I know. I start counselling next week... there's a lot to work through. We also start therapy for my son, which will be such a great support in terms of getting me out of this state of overwhelm and better placed to make healthier decisions.

My ex-H was avoidant from the beginning, almost hilariously so - I was very young when I met him, and knew nothing much about relationships at that stage. I was acting out a pattern from my relationship with my dad - not being given very much in the way of approval or intimacy and I worked very hard to win it. But my ex-H was very committed beyond the first few years and despite being avoidant, he was very loyal, relaxed, fun, and pretty secure in himself. Just ran a mile if I mentioned any type of feeling (which I often do!!), and we had almost zero physical intimacy for a very long time.

My most recent ex is so unlike my ex-H. It's almost like I chose someone who personified all the things that I wasn't getting in my marriage and potentially childhood too. But yes, good idea, I will explore this further in therapy.

Yes, yes, definitely - I was too much effort for my recent ex. I feel that very much. And the funny thing is I was definitely minimising my needs at times, and I'm not a particularly demanding person anyway. I also feel the way I communicate – quite vulnerable and open – will have been triggering engulfment feelings for him. He loved the deep chat if it was nothing to do with our relationship, but it was confronting for him to have someone asking him how he felt, or wanting to talk through conflict moments calmly and openly... he wasn't used to it... I think conflict for him in the past has been about getting angry and saying irrational things and then kiss and make up and just forget about it after. I'm not like that. I didn't let him off the hook without talking about things if he'd done something really hurtful, and he haaaated that!!

[jaded7]

We had a 'closure' chat yesterday, and he just talked about himself the whole time, and was basically listing all the things that he would have had to make an effort with in order to keep the relationship going... insinuating that any effort was too much effort... he wasn't nasty, but there just wasn't any care of understanding for me... I said a few times that the whole process had really messed with me and hurt me, and left me wondering what the heck had just happened, and what was real and what wasn't, and whether I was someone he really loved, or if he just couldn't be alone. He had no answer, no reassurance or validation to give.

I think you have the answer to what you want, you are 'too much effort' for him.  Like most borderlines, all they can think of is themselves, in my wife's case she is looking for someone to care for her without any reciprocity for them to care for me.

Just popping in to say that sound so familiar to me. I do feel like people with BPD are very self-centered, as in everything relates to them and their feelings and perspectives, their victimhood. And it results in a lopsided relationship.

I remember one day thinking to myself 'I have no power in this relationship'. Not that I'm hungry for power and control, I'm not, but that everything revolved around her needs and her perceptions of events. I realized that we never talked about things important in my life, it was mostly me listening to her complain about her ex or the parents at her kids schools, or challenging things in her life.

She literally said "I don't have time for your emotions" when something she'd said/done had hurt me and confused me. A day that I had been feeling down I went to her house for lunch and while sitting at the table asked her if I could have another hug and she said "NO! Too needy!"

[seekingtheway]

Ouch, your ex didn't beat around the bush with her words, did she?!

Yeah, the more I think about it, having a conversation with my ex can be very similar in some ways as having a conversation with a child - the focus is on him, his needs, his experience, and he has limited access to other perspectives. And then there's all these other amazing traits wrapped into the package, and all of these fun, interesting conversations that are actually lovely to be around. But ultimately the main function is to serve and support this person because that's where their brain development is stunted at.

I listened to a podcast from Lindsay C Gibson the other day who wrote 'disentangling from emotionally immature people', and she was explaining what it feels like to interact with emotionally immature people, and she was saying it's possible for people to be fully mature in all the other ways, physically, socially, and be very clever, but they're just missing the emotional maturity... so that's why it's confusing, because you feel like you're on a level playing field, when you're really not. And you should expect the same tactics that very young children use to get their own way. I probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if one of my children acted that way, I'd expect it, but it feels shocking and jarring when you come across the same behaviour in an adult.

I've decided to stick to very limited contact for now... after three or four days of really intense grief and non-stop crying (!) I feel stronger today, a tiny glimpse into the calm I might feel once I've come out the other side of this experience. Therapy starts next week too.

[jaded7]

Ouch, your ex didn't beat around the bush with her words, did she?!

Yeah, the more I think about it, having a conversation with my ex can be very similar in some ways as having a conversation with a child - the focus is on him, his needs, his experience, and he has limited access to other perspectives. And then there's all these other amazing traits wrapped into the package, and all of these fun, interesting conversations that are actually lovely to be around. But ultimately the main function is to serve and support this person because that's where their brain development is stunted at.

I listened to a podcast from Lindsay C Gibson the other day who wrote 'disentangling from emotionally immature people', and she was explaining what it feels like to interact with emotionally immature people, and she was saying it's possible for people to be fully mature in all the other ways, physically, socially, and be very clever, but they're just missing the emotional maturity... so that's why it's confusing, because you feel like you're on a level playing field, when you're really not. And you should expect the same tactics that very young children use to get their own way. I probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if one of my children acted that way, I'd expect it, but it feels shocking and jarring when you come across the same behaviour in an adult.

I've decided to stick to very limited contact for now... after three or four days of really intense grief and non-stop crying (!) I feel stronger today, a tiny glimpse into the calm I might feel once I've come out the other side of this experience. Therapy starts next week too.

SeekingTheWay. My apologies, I didn't see your response until just now. Sometimes I lose track of what and where I have posted! And sometimes I take a couple days 'off' of the boards.

I just want to acknowledge your response, and recognize that the last couple days have been very emotionally challenging for you. I know how that feels as does everyone else here.

I'm excited that you have therapy coming up in a few days. Isn't it funny how just knowing that can help us get through some really tough days?

And yes to the confusing part you write about. In fact, "confusing" was one of the words I said to my ex most often- "honey, when you say______ it's really confusing", "honey, when you don't return my calls or texts for days or even a week at a time it's hurtful and confusing", "honey, you accuse me of and yell at me for the very things you do, it's confusing". Confusing, confusing.

Like what you said. This person presents as an adult and even really, really capable in some areas, so it is indeed confusing when they react so emotionally immature/dysregulated in certain situations, or lie to you in a way that is so incredibly transparent that you can't even imagine that they believe what they're saying....exactly like a child would.