Feeling doubt but trying to stay strong

[seekingtheway]

Hello all, this board is pretty amazing, have learned a lot from the very helpful comments on many posts.

I've just come out of the second round in a relationship with a man who displays some clear borderline traits. The first time we were together, we had almost a year together and were very serious, lots of talk about the future, I was his dream girl etc, but then he left me for someone else. He came back after quite a long time, with many apologies and explanations, that this was a time in his life that he was very vulnerable, ended up being abused in that relationship, had learned a huge life lesson, entered therapy, and seemed to have a ton of awareness around his part in that whole saga.

I re-entered carefully, after several months of testing the waters to see if there was a change - and there was. He was definitely showing up differently in relationship. A lot less rushing and idealisation it felt like, it felt way more considered.

But over time, things started happening that I hadn't seen even in our first time together, just the extreme sensitivity to things, hyper-awareness of shifts in my mood or energy, picking fights about things I didn't understand, things that hadn't actually happened... I often dealt with it okay to be honest, didn't become reactive, and he often seemed to understand afterwards that he had over-reacted and came and apologised and explained, and even pointed to things that had happened in his past/childhood that had influenced his reactions to things. I tried to stay in a space of just observing what was happening... I floated between moments of thinking we would be able to just make changes that would help in these moments of insecurity and anxiety, and also feeling like his problems were so deep that it was going to lead to our downfall eventually.

I then went through a difficult period in my life that went on for a few months, mainly to do with my children, work and a few other stressful things - everything in my life collided. I needed some support, he just couldn't give it. the combination of me not being in a place to support him as much, me often being overwhelmed and stressed, and also our relationship moving to a stage where we were ready to spend more time together and increased intimacy - it all collided and he sabotaged and it all ended very suddenly.

I was devastated because despite difficulties, and similar to so many people on these boards, I love him so much, and I really wanted to make it work. I am very attached to him. But I think deep down I always knew I was on borrowed time.

We stayed in touch and there has been a back and forth motion for him between wanting to see me, then pulling away, then coming back again... but more recently he's flipped back into definitely wanting us back together, and he's become quite insistent/desperate in some of his attempts, which has worried me. For now I've told him we need space and I can't go back into relationship with him.

He's continuing with therapy, and in fact looking for other therapists that he thinks might work better for him. He's never been assessed I don't think, but he knows that life and relationships are really hard for him.

I don't feel solid in my decision to stay away, there's a huge part of me that wants to believe there's a chance he can pull it all together. he has this incredible awareness and he often takes full responsibility for his behaviour without me having to say anything at all...in fact the less I say, the more he takes on...

He's a truly incredible man, and this whole process has been very painful for me as I really felt I had met my person. But I have been trying to get realistic about what I really need from life - I have a lot on my plate with various things, and I am coming to accept that I do need support... I keep thinking of my children, and bringing someone in who doesn't have the skills to support us when we need it. What that would do to me, and in turn them.

I guess I'm just looking for a bit of that support here, cos I don't think my friends understand why I wouldn't just wipe hands and be done with even thinking about him. It's not that simple. I'm feeling a lot of pain and doubt. And somehow need to stay strong in this resolve.

Also, I'm worried about what will happen next in the cycle. How he'll either try and re-engage me or punish me. I presume it will be one or the other.

[seekingtheway]

Just jumping back on with an extra update, because the attempts to bring me back into the relationship are definitely escalating, and at times are quite desperate and he's showing quite a bit of frustration and even anger, and I'm having real trouble drawing firm boundaries around this.

I know logically what I should do and say, but I'm having so much trouble staying strong in it... and end up telling him how much I feel for him, and wish that I could re-enter the relationship, but just feel at this time that I can't.

I am not actually like this in other parts of my life, I'm pretty good at boundaries and just saying what I need, but it's like this relationship somehow strikes me dumb and bound, and I fawn and people please to a level that I don't recognise. It's almost like I don't feel safe to express what I really think, which I guess comes from different places - one, I really don't want to lose him even though I know logically I probably need to... or perhaps it's that I don't want to feel the deep, terrible feelings that I know I'll feel when I truly allow it to be over... the other side of it is potentially that I'm a bit scared of his reaction and what he'll do if I am really firm and strong on it...

I'm confused by the two sides of his personality, because the one side is so gentle and caring and aware, and does so much good in the world, but the other, whilst never gets verbally or physically abusive, feels scary to me, and I'm not sure why... he's still fairly passive, but I sense the anger underneath it...

I'm frustrated with myself because this is not behaviour I recognise in myself... I am finding myself justifying so many things, trying to find an opening in the logic that perhaps if I went back one more time, things would be different. I'm finding it hard to accept so many parts of this journey.

One of my children is neuro-divergent and we have a ton of problems with his behaviour, he's actually quite abusive at times, and it is very hard to deal with and keeps me in a survival state a lot of the time. I recently realised my ex has a very similar emotional profile to my son - very poor regulation. I feel like I've developed an attitude in the last year where I recognise that they both need security and a lot of care and help and love, and if I can just stand strong and secure, I can give them what they need to be more stable, yet here I am, with all three of us a total mess, and I see the mistakes I've made here... to be everything to everyone, but where am I?

And yet I can't seem to use my logic to walk away with confidence. I feel so overwhelmed at the moment that I almost feel like sabotaging my own life and just jumping back into the fire. Because his love is better than no love in a time where I feel very isolated and lonely and overwhelmed with everything. Not sure how to deal with this situation at all. Can't see the wood for the trees.

[jaded7]

Just jumping back on with an extra update, because the attempts to bring me back into the relationship are definitely escalating, and at times are quite desperate and he's showing quite a bit of frustration and even anger, and I'm having real trouble drawing firm boundaries around this.

I know logically what I should do and say, but I'm having so much trouble staying strong in it... and end up telling him how much I feel for him, and wish that I could re-enter the relationship, but just feel at this time that I can't.

I am not actually like this in other parts of my life, I'm pretty good at boundaries and just saying what I need, but it's like this relationship somehow strikes me dumb and bound, and I fawn and people please to a level that I don't recognise. It's almost like I don't feel safe to express what I really think, which I guess comes from different places - one, I really don't want to lose him even though I know logically I probably need to... or perhaps it's that I don't want to feel the deep, terrible feelings that I know I'll feel when I truly allow it to be over... the other side of it is potentially that I'm a bit scared of his reaction and what he'll do if I am really firm and strong on it...

I'm confused by the two sides of his personality, because the one side is so gentle and caring and aware, and does so much good in the world, but the other, whilst never gets verbally or physically abusive, feels scary to me, and I'm not sure why... he's still fairly passive, but I sense the anger underneath it...

I'm frustrated with myself because this is not behaviour I recognise in myself... I am finding myself justifying so many things, trying to find an opening in the logic that perhaps if I went back one more time, things would be different. I'm finding it hard to accept so many parts of this journey.

One of my children is neuro-divergent and we have a ton of problems with his behaviour, he's actually quite abusive at times, and it is very hard to deal with and keeps me in a survival state a lot of the time. I recently realised my ex has a very similar emotional profile to my son - very poor regulation. I feel like I've developed an attitude in the last year where I recognise that they both need security and a lot of care and help and love, and if I can just stand strong and secure, I can give them what they need to be more stable, yet here I am, with all three of us a total mess, and I see the mistakes I've made here... to be everything to everyone, but where am I?

And yet I can't seem to use my logic to walk away with confidence. I feel so overwhelmed at the moment that I almost feel like sabotaging my own life and just jumping back into the fire. Because his love is better than no love in a time where I feel very isolated and lonely and overwhelmed with everything. Not sure how to deal with this situation at all. Can't see the wood for the trees.

Just letting you know that I've read your story, and feel for you.

I can share that I too felt the same way in my relationship, especially the part about the two sides of his personality (your situation) and her's (in mine).

It's very confusing, I know. In my case she became very verbally abusive, with huge amounts of gaslighting and just plain lying about what was said/what happened/what she promised, etc.

And like you I found myself justifying her behavior and making excuses for it. Thinking, if only I could figure out a way to let her know that I really care, then she won't get mad.

I imagine this sounds familiar to you. Keep reading and posting, lots of help here.

[seekingtheway]

Thank you so much for your response. Yep, gonna keep posting for a little while if that's okay, just feeling the need to get it all out... and work through to a point where I feel stronger in my resolve.

He's never actually said anything abusive to me, but there was certainly a lot of projection and very confusing, circular discussions that would take a huge amount of energy for me to keep my feet on the ground. He would feel ashamed afterwards, and would apologise, and be really grateful that I'd pushed through these moments without turning on him... saying I was the first person who had ever tried to work 'with him' on his issues within a relationship.

And to a degree, I was willing to work through this dynamics with him, but the coming and going, and disappearing once I needed something, that's something that I just feel like I can't work with... it's something I can't control at all, and it triggers something pretty deep for me to feel that I am too much... anxious attachment, that I have done a fair amount of work in healing.

The fact I've put so much effort into therapy, and self-work, particularly attachment, is the source of a lot of shame as I find myself in this situation... I do feel ashamed of myself.

I struggle very much with flipping in my head between looking at this situation in two ways.... first being that I deserve support and a partner who can show up for me and give me a similar amount of love and energy that I put in... and therefore this is a relationship that cannot really serve me long-term... and the second is that he is suffering from a mental illness, and he is doing his best, and he deserves love and support from a partner, and I have got all of those things in bucket loads... and if I stay secure within myself and keep voicing my needs and boundaries in ways that allow us to stay connected, I can't go too wrong.

He sometimes shows up as a partner as being everything and more that I could possibly want, and that fills a big hole for me, which I think exists partly because of the isolation I deal with as a result of caretaking my son, as I mentioned above... I don't have a ton of support in that zone. There are childhood wounds there too... and it's devastating that someone appeared offering me everything I ever wanted, and then it keeps getting taken away, and then offered again, taken away.. etc etc... definitely feeling the addictive pull from the intermittent reinforcement, and I am not sure how to take control over that feeling.

I am very loyal in my belief of him as a good person, but I sometimes hear stories, or he lets something slip, and I get this nervous kind of feeling in my body, like there's something sinister hidden below the surface, I've never gotten that feeling before from a partner. And it's a slippery feeling, I can't pin in down or explain why I've got it exactly, only that it's there.

[once removed]

Because his love is better than no love in a time where I feel very isolated and lonely and overwhelmed with everything. Not sure how to deal with this situation at all. Can't see the wood for the trees.

this is it. look no further.

i dont mean to suggest you dont love and care for this person, or that this isnt hard. i appreciate that it isnt the only reason.

end up telling him how much I feel for him, and wish that I could re-enter the relationship, but just feel at this time that I can't.

but you actually have dealt with the situation. and you did so with plenty of confidence.

I'm confused
...
I'm frustrated
...
fills a big hole for me
...

pardon if im stating the obvious, but it seems to me youre fighting two different wars. one is the question of whether to be in a relationship with him. on the surface, thats resolved. youve found a way to say no. you may be entertaining the idea, but theres nothing more to be done about it, right? balls not in your court.

the other is with your feelings. theyre remarkably complex. a lot of debilitating feelings of guilt and paralysis. and shame over that.

whether or not it is obvious, it might help to approach it that way, to detangle the two.

I recently realised my ex has a very similar emotional profile to my son - very poor regulation. I feel like I've developed an attitude in the last year where I recognise that they both need security and a lot of care and help and love, and if I can just stand strong and secure, I can give them what they need to be more stable, yet here I am, with all three of us a total mess, and I see the mistakes I've made here... to be everything to everyone, but where am I?

I deal with as a result of caretaking my son, as I mentioned above... I don't have a ton of support in that zone. There are childhood wounds there too

this might be something of a third war; an even bigger war.

youre isolated. lacking in support. you have coped in the way you knew how, but find yourself even more overwhelmed.

in that situation, the appeal of a relationship like this is obvious. in some cases, it doesnt need to be a formal "we are/arent together", but the drama of it all, the highs and the lows, the confusion; its like a relationship of its own. it drowns out everything else.

if you havent, i would really recommend exploring this third war with a therapist. it will take unwinding that requires support, and is very difficult to do when youre overwhelmed.

if you are entertaining reconciling the relationship, i also might take a look at the Bettering board, or at least read through the tools, the dos and donts, etc. you dont have to take any steps forward, but it would probably help to be armed with information. this board is also a place where we are all exes, either because we left or were left or the relationship was no longer available to us, so you wont find the same sort of support between the two, should you want to explore the possibility.

[seekingtheway]

Thank you so much for taking the time to pick through those internal battles... very astutely observed and you are spot on.

The first battle of whether to stay in the relationship or not... Yes, I did deal with it, somewhat confidently at the time. But the question and pressure keeps coming from him, and each time time it does, I have to reassert my decision, my confidence wanes, and I am beginning to feel conflicted.

I thought very carefully before posting on this board rather than the others because this is where I want to situation to stand, but I don't feel strong in it. I haven't cut off contact and am even seeing him sometimes... so my actions are no longer matching up to my decision, and there enters the second battle you mentioned, all the confusing feelings around him and what happens in our dynamic, the many conflicting things he says and does. I feel like I'm skating around the edge of re-entering again, but I really don't want to, more because I don't feel strong enough to keep saying no and deal with the consequences.

The final battle you mentioned re my son, yep, this one runs deep - and I have sought counselling for it in the past, but again in the last week as it's a situation that feels very tied to my decision to entertain this relationship for as long as I have.

So much to pick through in a time where life just feels like a lot.

I think the reason I chose this board is because I want people to support me to stay away... but I have noticed with my friends, their disdain towards him and outward telling me to stay away makes me almost want to do the opposite, and it certainly makes me shut down and not want to talk about it any more with them. These boards take a different approach, everyone gets the complexity of it, which is why I came here instead. Thank you again.

[jaded7]

He's never actually said anything abusive to me, but there was certainly a lot of projection and very confusing, circular discussions that would take a huge amount of energy for me to keep my feet on the ground. He would feel ashamed afterwards, and would apologise, and be really grateful that I'd pushed through these moments without turning on him... saying I was the first person who had ever tried to work 'with him' on his issues within a relationship.
 

And to a degree, I was willing to work through this dynamics with him, but the coming and going, and disappearing once I needed something, that's something that I just feel like I can't work with... it's something I can't control at all, and it triggers something pretty deep for me to feel that I am too much... anxious attachment, that I have done a fair amount of work in healing.



He sometimes shows up as a partner as being everything and more that I could possibly want, and that fills a big hole for me, which I think exists partly because of the isolation I deal with as a result of caretaking my son, as I mentioned above... I don't have a ton of support in that zone. There are childhood wounds there too... and it's devastating that someone appeared offering me everything I ever wanted, and then it keeps getting taken away, and then offered again, taken away.. etc etc... definitely feeling the addictive pull from the intermittent reinforcement, and I am not sure how to take control over that feeling.

I am very loyal in my belief of him as a good person, but I sometimes hear stories, or he lets something slip, and I get this nervous kind of feeling in my body, like there's something sinister hidden below the surface, I've never gotten that feeling before from a partner. And it's a slippery feeling, I can't pin in down or explain why I've got it exactly, only that it's there.

I'm just checking in to see how you are doing.

The circular arguments! Those are so frustrating....like chasing down a the rabbit at the dog track or hitting moles at the circus gam....it's very hard to pin something down, isn't. Then you find yourself getting very technical and specific, reminding them of the exact words they used or said in order to get to the issue, which they deny and then call you obsessive or just plain wrong.

As you know by now I'm sure, these are characteristic of cluster B personality disorders, and likely have to do with shame avoidance or needing ' win'. With my ex, I even told you her 'honey, when we have a disagreement it seems like you to win...and that's not my goal here, it's simply for us to see and hear each other'. That didn't work.

Your acknowledgement of your childhood wounds will get you far in understanding this. It was key for me, and my therapist said it to me very early. She called it developmental wounds, same thing. They were absolutely I stayed for as long as I did, absolutely why I took the verbal abuse and yelling, absolutely why I felt guilty and bad after she abused me.

I hope you continue to make progress.

[seekingtheway]

Thank you so much for checking in, I really appreciate that.

Yes, that does all sound very familiar. It does take a lot to keep your feet on the ground in those circular conversations, because they go off in very unexpected directions, and the logic just doesn't seem to exist. It's purely emotion-based, with layers of words over the top. I could often manage these conversations with some perseverance, validation, and just waiting for the storm to blow over... cos afterwards he would usually see what he was doing and take responsibility. I think the thing that confuses me is the level of his awareness, his ability to take responsibility and desire to grow and change certain patterns... it surpasses the awareness of so many other people I know. I don't know how this usually fits into cluster B personalities?

In answer to your question, I'm not doing awesome at the moment... I feel my mental health slipping, and I'm not feeling strong. I don't recognise the way I am at the moment, and that scares me a bit. Knowing what I should do and what I need and not doing it isn't usually my way. I feel weak and very vulnerable at the moment.

It seems I'm scared to let go. The pressure to get back together continues. His reactions to me stalling and not saying I'll go back are varied, sometimes he's very understanding, other times really frustrated... when he's frustrated and says things that are unfair and untrue, I fawn.

I understand the psychology of why I do it and what's going on here, but I am shocked at the strength of this grip, and I'm not sure how to break free. Underneath it all, I just want a healthy partnership with someone. I really do. And I know I can't get it from him.

Part of me just thinks I'm not strong enough to stay away right now and I should just go back and let it blow up a few months down the track. But I am aware that is probably one of the most ridiculous plans I've ever had in my life.

[jaded7]

Thank you so much for checking in, I really appreciate that.

Yes, that does all sound very familiar. It does take a lot to keep your feet on the ground in those circular conversations, because they go off in very unexpected directions, and the logic just doesn't seem to exist. It's purely emotion-based, with layers of words over the top. I could often manage these conversations with some perseverance, validation, and just waiting for the storm to blow over... cos afterwards he would usually see what he was doing and take responsibility. I think the thing that confuses me is the level of his awareness, his ability to take responsibility and desire to grow and change certain patterns... it surpasses the awareness of so many other people I know. I don't know how this usually fits into cluster B personalities?

In answer to your question, I'm not doing awesome at the moment... I feel my mental health slipping, and I'm not feeling strong. I don't recognise the way I am at the moment, and that scares me a bit. Knowing what I should do and what I need and not doing it isn't usually my way. I feel weak and very vulnerable at the moment.

It seems I'm scared to let go. The pressure to get back together continues. His reactions to me stalling and not saying I'll go back are varied, sometimes he's very understanding, other times really frustrated... when he's frustrated and says things that are unfair and untrue, I fawn.

I understand the psychology of why I do it and what's going on here, but I am shocked at the strength of this grip, and I'm not sure how to break free. Underneath it all, I just want a healthy partnership with someone. I really do. And I know I can't get it from him.

Part of me just thinks I'm not strong enough to stay away right now and I should just go back and let it blow up a few months down the track. But I am aware that is probably one of the most ridiculous plans I've ever had in my life.

Although there are many more knowledgeable people here, I can say that I recognize these feelings. I too understand the psychology of it, and I too am amazed at the grip of my attachment to my ex. It's overwhelming sometimes.

Little, little steps. Do one thing you feel good about. Find a coffee shop that you feel comfortable in. A walk that you can do, over and over, so it feels familiar and is not associated with him.

It' a process for sure.

[seekingtheway]

So my latest rabbit hole of thought is whether it's actually borderline or not. There's definitely traits that I'm seeing, particularly the fear of abandonment plus volatile moods, but in honesty he doesn't show all of the traits. I think it would be hard for him to get a diagnosis.

But I have recently read quite a lot about the huge similarity/crossover between ADHD and BPD. And the fact that many people with ADHD have rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD), which does mimic the feel of BPD. The reason I've been down the rabbit hole is because of my child, but it started ringing so many bells in terms of how my ex showed up in relationship. I'd say he is definitely ADHD, because of attention and organisation factors.

Seeing it through that lens has made me less afraid of him, and more compassionate, almost like it's more workable. But it doesn't change the fact that he would have real trouble showing up in a relationship in a balanced way - i.e. he would need a lot more support than he would be able to offer back. And I am paralysed in this state of not knowing what to do.

He is still making it clear he wants to get back together, but he's not pressuring me. He's also committing to plenty of healthy lifestyle changes. I feel equal parts scared of getting back together with him as well as completely closing the door on it forever.

Wondered if anyone had any experience or thoughts.

Not sure if I'd be better in the conflicted section in all honesty... I'm treading water on this decision, and it's causing me huge anxiety!

[Pensive1]

seekingtheway,

Just a few scattered thoughts....

re: "they both need security and a lot of care and help and love, and if I can just stand strong and secure, I can give them what they need to be more stable, yet here I am, with all three of us a total mess, and I see the mistakes I've made here... to be everything to everyone, but where am I?"

This sounds like potentially a very strong self-sacrifice schema. That's true of me. I suspect it's true of many people who get together with a BPD partner (then play caretaker). I'll also mention - if you're unfamilar with Schema Therapy, it's worth checking out - one good starting point is the book "Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthrough Program to End Negative Behavior and Feel Great Again".

re: "I have recently read quite a lot about the huge similarity/crossover between ADHD and BPD. And the fact that many people with ADHD have rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD)..."

ADHD is a major risk factor for BPD. There's a lot of comorbidity. Likely, genes that underlie ADHD also confer greatly increased risk for BPD.

My ex has ADHD. And she also very clearly has BPD. I ascribed her behavior to ADHD and rejection sensitive dysphoria until my therapist broke through my denial, after my ex monkeybranched (i.e. got together with another guy and dumped me).

And this (and other things you describe) certainly sound like BPD to me, rather than merely ADHD: "but there was certainly a lot of projection and very confusing, circular discussions that would take a huge amount of energy for me to keep my feet on the ground. He would feel ashamed afterwards..."
The circular arguments, the shame, etc. When I was first getting together with my ex, I actually found her capacity for circular arguments intriguing.

The other thing I'll mention - I was with my ex for 25 years, until she split me black (in the middle of very stressful crisis with her son), then dumped me for a new guy. I went through 25 years of extreme self-sacrificing, constant emotional turbulence and pain, financial chaos, etc. before the end. I did love my ex, and we did have some good times together. But in retrospect, getting together with her and staying with her all that time (while I tried to make it work) was not a wise decision. I'll note that the following old cliche might apply to me - "No-one is useless. You can always serve as a bad example."   

[SurvivalGuy]

It blows my mind when I hear about folks who are coming of decade long relationships with a BPD. How is it that even possible? Are you sure they have BPD? Love can fade with healthy relationships over that amount of time.

I was only with my exBPDgf for 6 months and I was emotionally exhausted. I wanted it to work out and I loved her but there is no way I could survive decades living as a doormat.

[jaded7]

So my latest rabbit hole of thought is whether it's actually borderline or not. There's definitely traits that I'm seeing, particularly the fear of abandonment plus volatile moods, but in honesty he doesn't show all of the traits. I think it would be hard for him to get a diagnosis.

But I have recently read quite a lot about the huge similarity/crossover between ADHD and BPD. And the fact that many people with ADHD have rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD), which does mimic the feel of BPD. The reason I've been down the rabbit hole is because of my child, but it started ringing so many bells in terms of how my ex showed up in relationship. I'd say he is definitely ADHD, because of attention and organisation factors.

Seeing it through that lens has made me less afraid of him, and more compassionate, almost like it's more workable. But it doesn't change the fact that he would have real trouble showing up in a relationship in a balanced way - i.e. he would need a lot more support than he would be able to offer back. And I am paralysed in this state of not knowing what to do.

He is still making it clear he wants to get back together, but he's not pressuring me. He's also committing to plenty of healthy lifestyle changes. I feel equal parts scared of getting back together with him as well as completely closing the door on it forever.

Wondered if anyone had any experience or thoughts.

Not sure if I'd be better in the conflicted section in all honesty... I'm treading water on this decision, and it's causing me huge anxiety!

Pensive has some good thoughts above. I'll add that the very strong desire to identify 'is it BPD? is it NPD? is it ______'  is really common. For me I think it was a way to explain what happened, why it happened, in the hope that it would give me some closure. If I could very very clearly understand 'what' it was, then I would be free of the self-blame and pain.

Then I watched a video by a psychologist that addressed this very thing ( I think it was Dr. Ramani on YouTube). And she said it doesn't matter 'what' it was, it matters what they did and how they treated you. In any and all cases, verbal abuse and gaslighting and belittling and yelling and .....is wrong. Doesn't matter what it was that caused it. In any case, love doesn't not exist where there is verbal abuse, ghosting, belittling.

As Pensive says above, the circular arguments are certainly telling though. And the shaming and the things I listed.

[SaltyDawg]

So my latest rabbit hole of thought is whether it's actually borderline or not. There's definitely traits that I'm seeing, particularly the fear of abandonment plus volatile moods, but in honesty he doesn't show all of the traits. I think it would be hard for him to get a diagnosis.

But I have recently read quite a lot about the huge similarity/crossover between ADHD and BPD. And the fact that many people with ADHD have rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD), which does mimic the feel of BPD. The reason I've been down the rabbit hole is because of my child, but it started ringing so many bells in terms of how my ex showed up in relationship. I'd say he is definitely ADHD, because of attention and organisation factors.

Seeing it through that lens has made me less afraid of him, and more compassionate, almost like it's more workable. But it doesn't change the fact that he would have real trouble showing up in a relationship in a balanced way - i.e. he would need a lot more support than he would be able to offer back. And I am paralysed in this state of not knowing what to do.

He is still making it clear he wants to get back together, but he's not pressuring me. He's also committing to plenty of healthy lifestyle changes. I feel equal parts scared of getting back together with him as well as completely closing the door on it forever.

Wondered if anyone had any experience or thoughts.

Not sure if I'd be better in the conflicted section in all honesty... I'm treading water on this decision, and it's causing me huge anxiety!

SeekingTheWay,

   I will share some of my thoughts.  First I will address if he has BPD or not.  A general rule of thumb is that if a person is self-aware, more often than not they do not have a personality disorder, as most are not self-aware, unless their symptoms are too severe to ignore otherwise (like suicide attempts, self-harm, and other severe forms that would indicate a need for hospitalization - this is the case for my uBPDw who still doesn't think she has BPD in spite of being self-aware for 8/9 symptoms, she has all 9, but is not self-aware on the last one).  For a while my uBPDw was projecting her symptoms on to me with what felt like gaslighting, and I did a deep dive with a psychologist and a LCSW-S who trains other LCSW's - I am likely a codependent which shares some of the BPD traits / symptoms, and those are not as severe (at a disordered level).

Here are the symptoms of BPD

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th ed, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR) criteria
For a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder (1), patients must have

▶A persistent pattern of unstable relationships, self-image, and emotions (ie, emotional dysregulation) and pronounced impulsivity

This persistent pattern is shown by ≥ 5 of the following:

➡Desperate efforts to avoid abandonment (actual or imagined)
➡Unstable, intense relationships that alternate between idealizing and devaluing the other person
➡An unstable self-image or sense of self
➡Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving[,etc.])
➡Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation
➡Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days
➡Persistent feelings of emptiness
➡Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger
➡Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress

▶Also, symptoms must have begun by early adulthood but can occur during adolescence.

I added the [, etc.] as that can include 'excessive spending' for the 'impulsivity' symptom which occurred in both of my relationships (current uBPD/uOCPD-w & ex uBPD/uNPD-exgf).  Also, having 0-100% ranges in under a second is being impulsive as well, among other traits than can be impulsive that are described by the other symptoms.  I've personally noticed in my wife that most of these symptoms are interconnected with each other, even though they should be treated as 'separate' by a clinician for a diagnosis.  For example, my wife's rages would also coincide with the mood swing (happiness to anger in under a second) which is typical of a 'borderline rage' which lasted only hours.

For my uBPDw it was easy to figure out as she had all of these symptoms and sub-symtoms (those separated with an 'or') except the 'self-mutilation' sub-symptom.  Only 5 of these primary symptoms must be present, including the highlighted ones, at a disordered level, in order for a diagnoses to be made by a professional.  Being a lay-person, all we can say is that we have observed these symptoms, but cannot make a diagnosis.  If you count 5 or more of the symptoms marked with a '➡' it is possible that she can be diagnosed with BPD.  If she doesn't have at least 5 of those symptoms, it is likely she has something else.


Also, most people with BPD have one or more comorbidities, it is extremely rare that a person only has BPD.  All 3 of my serious romantic relationships (lasting more than a few months) are documented as having diagnosed mental health conditions (other than BPD/NPD/OCPD) which includes but is not limited to MDD (major depressive disorder), GAD (generalized anxiety disorder), ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder, which is a subset of ADHD).  I attract and continue to attract 'crazy' as they all chased after me and I had poor boundaries (until this year), so I got caught up in these kinds of relationships.  None of these relationships could 'show up' they way I wanted them too, the one with diagnosed ADD was probably the closest to showing up for me, but she had her own issues, and dumped me on the advice of her mother when I didn't marry her (we were engaged).

You also indicated, "he's not pressuring me. He's also committing to plenty of healthy lifestyle changes."  Both of these traits are not typical of a PD (personality disorder).  If he has ADHD, there are effective medications for it, like ritalin and others.  This sounds very positive.  My pwADD did this, and she did not have BPD.

However, ... you said, "it's causing me huge anxiety!"  Please follow your 'gut' on this, talk to your therapist to help you sort out your feelings on this matter.  Definitely do not make any impulsive decisions on this, as you will have to accept the consequence of this decision.  Since you have anxiety, although I have not yet read this book (it is on my list to read), I understand the following book is helpful for making a decision, The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk

Whatever you chose, make sure you do some self-care whatever that may look like for you.  For me this includes seeing a therapist, exercise outside, long hot showers, getting lost in a book/tv series/movie, etc.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

"No-one is useless. You can always serve as a bad example."   

I love this quote of a cliche that you shared, I got a good laugh from it.  Thanks for sharing.

[SaltyDawg]

It blows my mind when I hear about folks who are coming of decade long relationships with a BPD. How is it that even possible? Are you sure they have BPD? Love can fade with healthy relationships over that amount of time.

I was only with my exBPDgf for 6 months and I was emotionally exhausted. I wanted it to work out and I loved her but there is no way I could survive decades living as a doormat.

My uBPD/uNPD-exgf was that way, I dumped her after she tried to cheat on me for a 2nd time (I had black/white e-mail proof of each indiscretion when she asked me to repair her computer from a virus).  It was about 6 months together over a period of 2 years.  It was easy to leave her, as she crossed my hard boundary, and I have very few boundaries, and most of them were quite poor.  She had about 9 months of love-bombing / sex-bombing before things turned sour.

Yes, I am sure, like 99.9999% sure, as all symptoms are present (except self-mutilation) 6 or more times over (6 suicide attempts/gestures - level 4/4 on the risk assessment), some of the symptoms have been seen thousands of times over.

My uBPD/uOCPDw whom I am currently with, and have been for almost 24 years, married 20-1/2 and is improving because of her self-awareness and willingness to change, along with my willingness to change and make a better life for myself, my children, and of course my wife too.  My wife did the love-bombing/sex-bombing thing from December 2000 to March 2006, there were no red flags until May of 2003 (she kept them well hidden, even though in retrospect the red flags were there from the very beginning, I just didn't know how to recognize them at the time it was happening as they were exceptionally pleasant and intoxicating to me, I was overdosing on the feel-good chemicals in my brain that were created with the love/sex-bombing).  I was aware that the textbook mentioned usually it occurred less than a year with rare exceptions lasting a maximum of two years for love-bombing/sex-bombing phase, well my wife exceeded this number, and I thought I was in the clear at the two year mark (I distinctly remembering thinking she is 'too good to be true', so I researched it, and took the 1 year bench mark the textbook mentioned it and doubled it, well my wife exceeded it, so I thought it was her 'normal', I bought my wife's narrative at the time, hook, line, sinker, and rod too - and boy was I ever confused and hurt when she changed from extreme idolization of me to severely devaluating.  Initially I thought it was pregnancy hormones (the change was sudden and quick, the moment she realized she was pregnant with our first child) and it would pass.  However, it hasn't, I have been stuck mainly out of Obligation & Guilt, and later on it also included Fear too  (FOG).

I am still obligated to my children, and I am reversing some of the emotional damage that has been caused.  My children are now children, and are no longer fearful of the raging monster, that comes back from time to time, but makes far fewer visits than she did in the past.  I feel, and pretty much know my children are in a better place now.  My wife is improving herself, but has lapses from time to time and these are getting less frequent.  So my relationship is moving from the "too good to leave, but too bad to stay". It is now in the "okay to stay phase" (as long as there is improvement).

Let me know if you have more questions on this dynamic.  It is very easy for someone who has codependent tendencies to get stuck in this kind of relationship, and depending on the source anywhere from 45->90% of the general population are codependent.

Take care with self-care.

[seekingtheway]

Thank you all so much for these thoughts. It's really helpful for me to just get it out and have some feedback to help pick apart and have a better look at what I'm doing...

I haven't been able to get into a therapist the last few weeks and may have to wait a few more, I need a new one so I'm trying to find someone. So I am feeling the weight of making this decision, yes definitely some anxiety. I do know those books well, and I have a number of self soothing tools, breath work, meditation, somatic practices... but nature is where I find my peace... they're all really important for me at the moment. Things are very intense with my son, and I have a feeling that once I get that situation under control, I'll have more space within myself to know what I need to do. Until then... thank you for so much for the support I'm getting here.

In terms of whether it's BPD - I feel like he meets the criteria for three, potentially four, but who am I to say for sure?!

He does have a ton of self awareness, so this is the thing that makes me feel hope for him and us at times. He can pick apart a behaviour or reaction after the fact, and talk about the psychology of it, and take full responsibility for it without any prompting from me. i.e. he'll tell me that he enters power struggle discussions, because that's the only way he could be heard in his family growing up, he needed to win something to be loved... so the circular discussions are sometimes his way of 'winning' or being 'heard', but then he acknowledges I wasn't trying to win, so he's just sabotaging a moment that could have just been a simple discussion.

He has never once said anything abusive to me though, he's definitely never yelled at me, he's more likely to just shut down and go very, very quiet, or be passive aggressive - and he hasn't appeared to devalue me at all, the back and forth of our relationship is usually driven by him feeling like he's not good enough because of some thing I've brought up and impulsively ending it, then regretting it. But then, Pensive, to your point, he monkey branched on me once as well... and was posting on socials within days...

I don't see him have unstable relationships outside of his partners, or hold unbalanced opinions of other people - even people who have wronged and hurt him, he doesn't appear to hold onto grudges, and he is very committed to making a difference in the world in his work.

He's a huge people pleaser, and he takes on other people's emotions, he's definitely co-dependent, boundaries are a real problem for him, and some of his shifts in mood come from what seems like a sense of stress and burn-out... he's talked a lot about trying to keep up with me and failing... some of the times where he'd pick a fight were times he's agreed to come do something with me, when really he should be resting but obviously just didn't say anything.

But he goes in and out of self-help books all the time, seeks out therapy for himself. Sometimes he has moments where he wants to just deny he needs it, but will verbalise that he knows he's pushing it away because he needs it so much and it just feels like an uphill battle that he doesn't want to always have to fight. I do feel like medication would help.

But then Jaded, your point is so relevant that it doesn't matter whether what exactly it is, it's how he has treated me and the facts of the situation in black and white are that he doesn't have the skills to support me when I am struggling with something... or give as much as he needs in a general sense, he finds it hard to stay in adult discussions around the relationship and shuts them down with Bermuda Triangle responses, and his frequent shifts in mood are exhausting to deal with.

My gut is telling me I shouldn't go back, and I think the anxiety is coming because I'm not listening to my gut properly, and I'm considering going back anyway and still seeing him etc. And I think this circles back to my very first point where I said that his love is better than no love in a time where I'm struggling. There's a big part of me that's saying, just go back in and deal with the consequences in a few months when it inevitably breaks down again.

I'll check out the Schema therapy, thank you - I don't think I've exhibited these self-sacrificing/caretaking behaviours to this level in previous relationships... it seems to have coincided with my son's journey, which has been all-consuming for a number of years now. But they have been there to a lesser degree and will have been there from childhood for sure, they are strong traits in my mother.

[Pensive1]

It blows my mind when I hear about folks who are coming of decade long relationships with a BPD. How is it that even possible? Are you sure they have BPD? Love can fade with healthy relationships over that amount of time.

I was only with my exBPDgf for 6 months and I was emotionally exhausted. I wanted it to work out and I loved her but there is no way I could survive decades living as a doormat.

In the case of my ex - yes I'm sure - she clearly meets 8 of the 9 criteria for BPD (she never displayed "Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation", though she has struggled at times with suicidal ideation). I lived with over two decades of her rages, identity disturbances, impulsivity, constant victimization narratives, waif-helplessness, paranoia, etc. I have high pain tolerance, which isn't really a healthy thing. And it often was exhausting. One funny thing - after over a decade and a half of periodically wondering whether I should continue in the relationship, about seven years ago I reached a point where I accepted that this is how she was, and would always be, and that I deeply loved her despite it, and that this is who I CHOOSE to spend the rest of my life with. And things between us actually were improving somewhat (we started taking weekly walks in natural areas, etc.), until a crisis with her son totally destabilized her. Her new guy appears to have NPD and is triggering her badly, where she's now displaying symptoms that she never did during our relationships (e.g., severe dissociative episodes).

Just over a year ago, I did manage to convince her to enter therapy at a center specializing in treatment of personality disorders. She's now in a DBT group, but isn't doing any of the homework. She's not very self-aware and won't acknowledge that she has BPD (largely because of the associated stigma) but says she has cPTSD (though she's never actually been diagnosed).

BPD runs in her family. Her son (my stepson) clearly meets the criteria, and is currently homeless and an addict (I'm one of his main sources of support, and I love him dearly). Her brother appeared to meet the criteria, and committed suicide. Her father died when she was an infant, so it's hard to say if he had it. Her paternal grandfather very clearly had it (and acted out dramatically), and her aunt (her father's sister) had it.

[seekingtheway]

I do actually have experience with another borderline, who was my ex-husband's mother. She displays most of the traits very clearly, but the thing I notice about her that's different to my ex, is that she has troubles with so many relationships in her life, not just her romantic relationships. And her pattern of idealising and devaluing was very strong and noticeable. I was at the receiving end of these cycles so very many times, and actually it's what ended my marriage, because I couldn't stay involved with the family any longer (there was another NPD person involved too who was probably worse tbh).

The damage their antics did to me over time was too much, as I'm a pretty sensitive person. My ex husband wasn't toxic at all, and we're still very close as friends, but he developed a lot of strong avoidant tactics to cope I guess, which meant he and nobody else truly stood up to her, they just ignored it. I eventually stood up to her and set strong boundaries to protect myself, but it was too late to save my marriage.

Because of this experience, I went through a ton of therapy and really explored my part in that dynamic. I also learned all about personality disorders and delved into psychology and healing as an interest. But although I've healed so much of it, it definitely left a lot of scars... and I have some fear around the damage that personality disordered people can bring to me and my life. I really did lose almost everything I had built and had to start afresh in a country with no family or support network around me, right at the beginning of Covid.

I think all of this is to say, I recognised a certain element of borderline going on with my ex... I think the monkey branching made me really question what was going on, because it happened so suddenly and was so at odds with the person I had had gotten to know (although I know that kind of behaviour can also be seen with attachment wounding rather than personality disorders). But I think that fear of it being a personality disorder has made me fawn at times, and not speak up when I otherwise would have done.

He's currently saying he'd do therapy together or individually, whatever it took to work through issues as they arose... it's really hard to say no when someone is offering all the answers. He's not pressuring, but he's basically saying we both deserve to know what we're doing, or let each other go... he's right.

[jaded7]

He has never once said anything abusive to me though, he's definitely never yelled at me, he's more likely to just shut down and go very, very quiet, or be passive aggressive - and he hasn't appeared to devalue me at all, the back and forth of our relationship is usually driven by him feeling like he's not good enough because of some thing I've brought up and impulsively ending it, then regretting it. But then, Pensive, to your point, he monkey branched on me once as well... and was posting on socials within days...

But then Jaded, your point is so relevant that it doesn't matter whether what exactly it is, it's how he has treated me and the facts of the situation in black and white are that he doesn't have the skills to support me when I am struggling with something... or give as much as he needs in a general sense, he finds it hard to stay in adult discussions around the relationship and shuts them down with Bermuda Triangle responses, and his frequent shifts in mood are exhausting to deal with.

You're lucky with the no yelling and abusive language. Many, most, of us have been subject to very harsh language. I did a post a few weeks ago listing just some of the things my ex called me and said to me. These things are very hard to process and stay with you a long time.

The lacking of skills to support YOU when you are struggling is a something I've read about a lot on here, and something I personally experienced. She wanted a great deal of support, would often call and just talk and talk as I supported her. In fact, most of our conversations were me listening to her and supporting/validating her. If I brought up something challenging in my life, oooooh boy. "I told you to ________!" "I don't have time for your emotions!" "I don't want to have to take care of you if your'e in the hospital!"

It's as if they need a caretaker, and don't want to have to take care of anyone else. In fact, early in our relationship in one of the few times I saw her get emotional, she cried and asked "will you take care of me?". I said yes, of course, I cared about her a great deal. But now I think about that and wonder what grown woman says that to a relatively new boyfriend.

[seekingtheway]

I did see your post Jaded, and some of the things written on that list were really awful, and I'm not surprised it's taken some time to shake those from your system. It's hard when someone has a false idea of who you are and over time those messages start to penetrate your sense of identity and worth. I hope that since you exited that relationship you've created distance between yourself and those messages?

I felt the same way about lots of things that my ex MIL and other family member used to say about me/to me... really awful abusive, demeaning things that I would never say to anyone, ever, even if I thought them. They always felt they were 100% justified. But I don't have that black and white thinking about anyone, so that's why it's so jarring when I come across it. My ex really isn't like that at all... it's possible he really does have the combination of ADHD & RSD.

The caretaking thing - yes, I'm seeing that on these boards a ton as well. And in some of the articles, it's almost like that's what you have to accept as part of the equation if you go into a relationship with someone who has got BPD.

I mean, I can quibble over the label, whether it's ADHD, RSD, BPD or whatever, but I once read the 'Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People', and the way it's described there is that an under-developed pre-frontal cortex will always put huge limitations on someone's emotional maturity and their ability to be in a reciprocal relationship. The brain is stunted at a certain stage. So it's like you're in a relationship with someone with an emotional age much younger than their actual age. It makes sense there is a lot of caretaking involved.

Growth is possible of course, but it needs to come from the desire from the person, not the desire from their loved ones.

[Pensive1]

I then went through a difficult period in my life that went on for a few months, mainly to do with my children, work and a few other stressful things - everything in my life collided. I needed some support, he just couldn't give it. the combination of me not being in a place to support him as much, me often being overwhelmed and stressed, and also our relationship moving to a stage where we were ready to spend more time together and increased intimacy - it all collided and he sabotaged and it all ended very suddenly.

The lacking of skills to support YOU when you are struggling is a something I've read about a lot on here, and something I personally experienced. She wanted a great deal of support, would often call and just talk and talk as I supported her. In fact, most of our conversations were me listening to her and supporting/validating her. If I brought up something challenging in my life, oooooh boy. "I told you to ________!" "I don't have time for your emotions!" "I don't want to have to take care of you if your'e in the hospital!"

That pattern is familiar to me as well. Elinor Greenberg, a psychotherapist who specializes in treating personality disorders using Masterson's approach, lists the following as one of three core fears of people with BPD: "You will engulf me with your emotional needs instead of taking care of mine."

I also wanted to say - from what you've written, seekingtheway, it's clear that you're dealing with all of this in a very thoughtful, emotionally-intelligent way.

One thing I sometimes do in these kinds of situation is to listen for what I call a "still, small voice". And by that, I don't mean that I'm psychotic and hearing voices  . But beneath my louder ruminations, I can sometimes internally hear a quiet, mindful answer, that feels like it's coming from a place of truth and integration.

[SaltyDawg]

In terms of whether it's BPD - I feel like he meets the criteria for three, potentially four, but who am I to say for sure?!

[...]

He's a huge people pleaser, and he takes on other people's emotions, he's definitely co-dependent, boundaries are a real problem for him, and some of his shifts in mood come from what seems like a sense of stress and burn-out... he's talked a lot about trying to keep up with me and failing... some of the times where he'd pick a fight were times he's agreed to come do something with me, when really he should be resting but obviously just didn't say anything.

[...]


My gut is telling me I shouldn't go back, and I think the anxiety is coming because I'm not listening to my gut properly, and I'm considering going back anyway and still seeing him etc. And I think this circles back to my very first point where I said that his love is better than no love in a time where I'm struggling. There's a big part of me that's saying, just go back in and deal with the consequences in a few months when it inevitably breaks down again.

Being mindful that I am not a professional, nor can I make a diagnosis; however, from what you have described, he is most likely codependent and does not meet the criteria for BPD.  However, being codependent is still a dysfunctional and potentially toxic relationship dynamic and can be just as damaging as a borderline one.

Your gut tells you 'no'; however, your need for some love is better than no love is creating conflict in your emotions on whether or not you want to have a viable relationship with him.  Only you can decide what to do with your relationship with him.  Can you 'friend zone' him, that way he can be the emotional support that you need without engulfing yourself with his codependence?  This is a very tricky and dangerous emotional slope to be on.  Alternatively, you can go to group therapy and get some of the support you need there. 

I would suggest using the DBT tool 'wise mind' to figure out what you need to do for yourself.  You can find 'wise mind' at the top of the 'tool menu' at the top of this web page.

I do actually have experience with another borderline, who was my ex-husband's mother. She displays most of the traits very clearly, but the thing I notice about her that's different to my ex, is that she has troubles with so many relationships in her life, not just her romantic relationships. And her pattern of idealising and devaluing was very strong and noticeable. I was at the receiving end of these cycles so very many times, and actually it's what ended my marriage, because I couldn't stay involved with the family any longer (there was another NPD person involved too who was probably worse tbh).

[...]

I think all of this is to say, I recognised a certain element of borderline going on with my ex... I think the monkey branching made me really question what was going on, because it happened so suddenly and was so at odds with the person I had had gotten to know (although I know that kind of behaviour can also be seen with attachment wounding rather than personality disorders). But I think that fear of it being a personality disorder has made me fawn at times, and not speak up when I otherwise would have done.

He's currently saying he'd do therapy together or individually, whatever it took to work through issues as they arose... it's really hard to say no when someone is offering all the answers. He's not pressuring, but he's basically saying we both deserve to know what we're doing, or let each other go... he's right.

Based on what you described, while I cannot diagnose, your exH-MIL likely was a pwBPD - from what you have written you do know how to recognize the difference as there is little doubt in what you have described. 

There is an overlap of symptoms/traits that you describe that I recognize as being codependent, and these are very similar (less intense) than some of the symptoms traits of being borderline.  All true borderlines are also codependent; however, not all codependents are borderline; hence, the similarities.  I am a recovering codependent, more likely a caretaker, I have worked the system to reduce 15 of the most common traits down to 3, one of which is people pleasing, one that you mentioned of him.  If you want some resources on codependents, let me know, and I will post them.

Here are some basic statistics of BPD vs Codependent behaviors -- 1.4 to 6.2% of the general population are diagnosable as being BPD; however, 45 to >90% of the general population have codependent traits.  Statistically speaking, 1-1/2 to 14% of codependents are also borderlines, leaving 86 to 98-1/2% who are not.

A person with a PD would not be likely to be self-aware enough to say the last statement I put in bold, nor be lucent enough to make the statement of 'letting him go'.  This is a decision that you need to make as you are intimately familiar with the situation.  Do what is best for you, and if you cannot decide, then make the decision that is also best for him, use the DBT wise mind tool to do what is best for your particular situation.  Perhaps have a discussion with him on what is best for the both of you.

If you are unsure, make a weighted list of pro's and con's of staying / leaving this relationship.  Look closely at the "con's" and decide if these are imperfections that you are willing to tolerate.  There is no such thing as a perfect relationship - can you tolerate his flaws?  The answer to that question should be the basis of whether or not you stay in a relationship with him.

Chose wisely.

Take care with self-care.

[jaded7]

I did see your post Jaded, and some of the things written on that list were really awful, and I'm not surprised it's taken some time to shake those from your system. It's hard when someone has a false idea of who you are and over time those messages start to penetrate your sense of identity and worth. I hope that since you exited that relationship you've created distance between yourself and those messages?

I felt the same way about lots of things that my ex MIL and other family member used to say about me/to me... really awful abusive, demeaning things that I would never say to anyone, ever, even if I thought them. They always felt they were 100% justified. But I don't have that black and white thinking about anyone, so that's why it's so jarring when I come across it. My ex really isn't like that at all... it's possible he really does have the combination of ADHD & RSD.

The caretaking thing - yes, I'm seeing that on these boards a ton as well. And in some of the articles, it's almost like that's what you have to accept as part of the equation if you go into a relationship with someone who has got BPD.

I mean, I can quibble over the label, whether it's ADHD, RSD, BPD or whatever, but I once read the 'Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People', and the way it's described there is that an under-developed pre-frontal cortex will always put huge limitations on someone's emotional maturity and their ability to be in a reciprocal relationship. The brain is stunted at a certain stage. So it's like you're in a relationship with someone with an emotional age much younger than their actual age. It makes sense there is a lot of caretaking involved.

Growth is possible of course, but it needs to come from the desire from the person, not the desire from their loved ones.

SeekingTheWay....as someone mentioned above, you are most definitely a kind and thoughtful person, and it comes through in your writing here. You are also confused and hurt, as we all are.

Thank goodness for these boards, they give us all a chance at feeling seen and heard.

A lot of this, as we talked about above, is trying to understand. Which probably doesn't come easily as the behaviors and treatment we receive is counter to our understanding of relationships and what they are about. Patricia Evans' book The Verbally Abusive Relationship is a masterclass in understanding this simple, but challenging, idea. The abuser is living in a different reality than the person being abused, and it's nearly impossible for the person being abused to realize this...because they think the abuser has the same conception of what a relationship is about as he/she does. This is not true, but yet we see through this lens and try to make sense of their words and behavior as if they share the lens.

A good friend of mine went through a deeply damaging episode with her step-father, very abusive and hurtful, and it profoundly shocked her and traumatized her. We've been supporting each other over the last couple years as we learn and grow. It's been wonderful.

Yesterday she called and talked through a challenging situation in her life, we discussed what had happened with someone, how it made her feel, and how her 'spirit' is so much stronger these days and how she moved through it pretty easily.

This morning she wrote me a long text saying how nice it is to be able to talk through these things with someone who understands, and how having someone like that in your life is so important for helping to heal from relational, attachment, damange/wounds.

I agreed with her. The reason I write about this is because this is what happens here as well. We are able to share and learn in an environment that is supportive and understands. That in itself is healing, even if we are not able to come up with definitive 'answers' right away.

Re: your MIL, yes you do know what it's like to be on the receiving end of harsh, hurtful language. People defining you, in a bad way. Telling you your intentions are not good, you are not a good person. So yes, you understand. And yes, her words to me/about me that you read were and still are hurtful. And that was not a complete list. The healing is in finding yourself again, which means we let someone define us, for a while at least.

Keep up the good work and I hope that you are finding relief and support here.

[seekingtheway]

Thank you Pensive - I know exactly what you mean by that still, small voice, that's how intuition speaks rather than the anxiety voice, which is much louder and more insistent. Best advice.

Saltydawg - this is great advice, thank you, I'm going to take the time to work on those lists and get it all down in a logical way. I'll also check out the wise mind tool. I agree, he's definitely co-dependent. I think he knows this himself actually, he's got a few books on it. In many other relationships in his family/community/work he is a giver, and exhausts his resources in this way, but in romantic relationships, it seems he is the taker. That's the comfortable position, and he can struggle when I set boundaries to protect my own energy because the balance is off. Thank you for the insight in terms of BPD... that makes me relax a little bit. There are definitely some of the traits that he hits square-on. He has this really rounded, balanced, healthy side to him that seems to know all the things, can be so rational and kind and calm, but there is definitely a flip-side - the Dr Jeykl effect - which stuns me at times because it's so irrational and he does do some gaslighting and projection, plus he is a bit controlling, but not in an overt way, more just the power struggle conversation thing. And that's the type of behaviour I relate to personality disorders, because it's thinking that feels way off the mark. But then it's gone again. But I do think ADHD, codependency, plus maybe a fearful avoidant attachment style are at play at a minimum. I appreciate your input to help me pick this apart.

Jaded - I'm glad that you've got friends who have gone through similar things. These experiences definitely bring us closer to ourselves and to others who can understand and empathise. My ex MIL and SIL experience was a watershed moment in my life for sure. And after all the healing and growing I needed to do, I felt stronger and more connected to myself than I ever have. Felt so great to be more authentic and aware of how to set boundaries properly. So it's been a disappointment to me to find myself in this position now. I clearly have more to learn. More growing to do. And that's okay. But I agree, this forum is so helpful, just the act of being seen, believed and held in an experience is very healing in itself.

[seekingtheway]

So the update... I sat with the wise mind and I knew what I needed to do... I didn't want to do it at all, because I do love him deeply, and if I thought there was a way for us to have a healthy relationship, he would be my person for the rest of my days without question.

I decided the best way to deal with it was to make sure I was upfront about my needs, communicate with total honesty and not excuse any bad behaviour and see where that took me. Only took a day for something to come up...

Just before we broke up, we had a weird conversation that accidentally ended up unearthing this woman that he follows on Instagram, and her page is extremely raunchy, kind of soft-porn photos. He ended up admitting she had been messaging him, wanting to potentially work with him. I said I wasn't comfortable with him following accounts with images that explicit, but especially if it was someone he knew and was interacting with. It triggered an argument, where I tried to listen to and validate his side and said I knew he wasn't doing anything wrong, but it's just how I felt about it, it just felt disrespectful to me somehow... but he had a huge over-reaction and blew the whole conversation up like a bomb...

He said he would stop following her, and he did, but then we broke up a few days later, and I couldn't help but look a week later and sure enough, he had started following her again already, except she had changed her profile picture and changed the name a bit... I suspected he had told her he'd gotten in trouble, and she changed the profile pic so that I wouldn't know he was following her again, but couldn't tell for sure. Figured it was none of my business seeing as we were no longer together.

Anyway, it came up today, I asked if she ended up working for him, he said no, then looked uncomfortable. The conversation progressed and I ended up asking him, did you end up following her again on Insta? He said no he didn't, and tried to make it look like I was being ridiculous. I asked the same question again, he said no, I don't want to see pictures like that of someone I know... so I admitted I knew he was following her again... he had nothing to say at all. Just silence.

He knows it's over. The last many weeks he has spent time telling me he's ready for this mature, honest, trusting relationship and that he'll do anything, and I just need to trust him, like it's this simple thing.

And I think this is what it boiled down to for me, not the fact that he's got mental health issues, not the fact that he's made mistakes, but the fact that he's been dishonest so many times along the way, and twisted stories and changed things up to the point my head is totally swirling. I simply cannot feel safe in a relationship with someone who can't tell the truth, which is one of my core values as a person.

I am sure there is so much more I do not know about this woman and many more.

I didn't write in my posts, but I do believe he's been very sexually promiscuous in the past and he's had a lot of partners in his past and definitely since the breakdown of his marriage three or so years ago. I just feel a bit sick. But there's relief here too. Because the decision was made by itself by me just stepping out of fawn mode and not turning a blind eye to behaviour that is not what I truly want or need from a partner.

[SaltyDawg]

So the update... I sat with the wise mind and I knew what I needed to do... I didn't want to do it at all, because I do love him deeply, and if I thought there was a way for us to have a healthy relationship, he would be my person for the rest of my days without question.

Thank you for the update.  He sounds like he had a profound impact on you.


I decided the best way to deal with it was to make sure I was upfront about my needs, communicate with total honesty and not excuse any bad behaviour and see where that took me. Only took a day for something to come up...

Just before we broke up, we had a weird conversation that accidentally ended up unearthing this woman that he follows on Instagram, and her page is extremely raunchy, kind of soft-porn photos. He ended up admitting she had been messaging him, wanting to potentially work with him. I said I wasn't comfortable with him following accounts with images that explicit, but especially if it was someone he knew and was interacting with. It triggered an argument, where I tried to listen to and validate his side and said I knew he wasn't doing anything wrong, but it's just how I felt about it, it just felt disrespectful to me somehow... but he had a huge over-reaction and blew the whole conversation up like a bomb...

That must have been very disappointing for you to unearth that he has been having an inappropriate relationship with another woman who has 'soft porn' of herself on social media.  You are a lot more generous than I would have been if my partner was looking and INTERACTING with a scantily clad person of the opposite sex with suggestive photos on social media.  That would have crossed the line for me.  At most I would have validated the feelings, but would have definitely questioned the behaviors - that is not how a potential spouse is supposed to behave.  My personal rule, base on my moral compass, is you can look, but don't touch/interact, and that includes having intimate conversation (PM's).  I think you were being more than reasonable given the circumstances.


He said he would stop following her, and he did, but then we broke up a few days later, and I couldn't help but look a week later and sure enough, he had started following her again already, except she had changed her profile picture and changed the name a bit... I suspected he had told her he'd gotten in trouble, and she changed the profile pic so that I wouldn't know he was following her again, but couldn't tell for sure. Figured it was none of my business seeing as we were no longer together.

If you weren't seeing him, that is 'his business'.  However, it is human nature to peek or check up on a former lover, especially if there are unfinished or unresolved feelings and you have the potential of getting back together again.  What you found only confirmed and reaffirmed that the relationship needed to come to an end, especially since he was already doing this within days, perhaps hours of the breakup.  Am I reading you right?


Anyway, it came up today, I asked if she ended up working for him, he said no, then looked uncomfortable. The conversation progressed and I ended up asking him, did you end up following her again on Insta? He said no he didn't, and tried to make it look like I was being ridiculous. I asked the same question again, he said no, I don't want to see pictures like that of someone I know... so I admitted I knew he was following her again... he had nothing to say at all. Just silence.

The silence is telling.  I am a sailor, and I know a large percentage of guy sailors think with their d***s, and that gets them into trouble.  I feel that your exbf is no different based on what you ave described here.


He knows it's over. The last many weeks he has spent time telling me he's ready for this mature, honest, trusting relationship and that he'll do anything, and I just need to trust him, like it's this simple thing.

And I think this is what it boiled down to for me, not the fact that he's got mental health issues, not the fact that he's made mistakes, but the fact that he's been dishonest so many times along the way, and twisted stories and changed things up to the point my head is totally swirling. I simply cannot feel safe in a relationship with someone who can't tell the truth, which is one of my core values as a person.

It is okay to feel uncomfortable and guarded around someone who you believe is not telling you the truth, especially if you have the facts to support your feelings.  If he tells you to trust him, when he does untrustworthy things and then tells you otherwise (twisted stories and changing facts), that is a form of gaslighting if it is intentional, and gaslighting is emotional/psychological abuse.


I am sure there is so much more I do not know about this woman and many more.

I didn't write in my posts, but I do believe he's been very sexually promiscuous in the past and he's had a lot of partners in his past and definitely since the breakdown of his marriage three or so years ago. I just feel a bit sick. But there's relief here too. Because the decision was made by itself by me just stepping out of fawn mode and not turning a blind eye to behaviour that is not what I truly want or need from a partner.

I am sure you feel relieved now that you know about this, and that you have potentially dodged a bullet with him, especially in light of his promiscuous past and you catching him at least conversing in an inappropriate manner with another woman.  Now that you have 'caught him' there is likely more than you probably don't know about this other woman.

It takes real strength to make your wellbeing a priority and I can tell that you have great insight because you’re able to identify that this is a problem and you’re willing to work on it.

I don't know how to delicately say this; however, if you have slept with him, in light of what you have shared, you might want to get yourself tested for STDs, as some of them can be debilitating if left untreated.

I am sure you may have some regret, and you may be feeling lonely.  Be sure to do some self-care, whatever that might look like for you to help you get through this period.

Take care, with self-care.

SD

[seekingtheway]

Yeah, I feel like this is the part in the process, now that the decision is well and truly made, that I allow myself to stop protecting him and be honest with myself about the really dysfunctional parts of our relationship, and just feel so ridiculous and weak that I forgave and allowed so many really off-the-hook things that were clearly not okay by most people's standards, but definitely not mine.

Even what I wrote on that last post seems off now... that I would want him to be my person for the rest of my days, because it's fantasy thinking. He is all the parts of him, not just the gentle, warm, caring, passionate parts that filled a void for me. He's also the other things - manipulative, volatile, unstable, dishonest, very anxious and incapable of looking after himself let alone me...

Some really worrying, manipulative moments happened the last few days, as he began pressuring me big-time to re-enter the relationship and commit to just jumping further ahead than we ever were before... I won't detail them, but they were messed up, and my shackles rose and I just didn't feel that safe all of a sudden. Sometimes I wonder whether some of his really, really balanced moments were actually him mirroring me... because he knows that is what I'll respond to. I don't know if that's even a thing.

It's been a painful day. I feel okay right now, but it's been excruciating facing what I've been putting off for so long, who he really is, who I really am (clearly more codependent than I ever have been in my life) and that it's completely over. Life without him. There has been sooooo many ups and downs in the nearly three years we've been together (on and off) that it's been very destabilising and I know I need to really dig into that self care now.

[SaltyDawg]

SeekingTheWay,

Thank you for sharing...

Yeah, I feel like this is the part in the process, now that the decision is well and truly made, that I allow myself to stop protecting him and be honest with myself about the really dysfunctional parts of our relationship, and just feel so ridiculous and weak that I forgave and allowed so many really off-the-hook things that were clearly not okay by most people's standards, but definitely not mine.

It sounds like you are reflecting on what you brought to the relationship, and where you could have been better.  I can tell that you have great insight because you’re able to identify these issues and you’re willing to do something about it.


Even what I wrote on that last post seems off now... that I would want him to be my person for the rest of my days, because it's fantasy thinking. He is all the parts of him, not just the gentle, warm, caring, passionate parts that filled a void for me. He's also the other things - manipulative, volatile, unstable, dishonest, very anxious and incapable of looking after himself let alone me...

I agree with you, it is 'fantasy thinking'.  I feel that most people do a bit of this, only see the good parts of a person, especially in the first two years of a relationship, and will suppress the more negative aspects.  You have stepped back from this relationship, and you are seeing things in a different, and more realistic perspective.  Learn from this, grow from it, this is part of life - learning from one's own missteps, I know I have more than my own fair share of them.


Some really worrying, manipulative moments happened the last few days, as he began pressuring me big-time to re-enter the relationship and commit to just jumping further ahead than we ever were before... I won't detail them, but they were messed up, and my shackles rose and I just didn't feel that safe all of a sudden. Sometimes I wonder whether some of his really, really balanced moments were actually him mirroring me... because he knows that is what I'll respond to. I don't know if that's even a thing.

Yes, 'it is a thing' - you are very perceptive, even in healthy relationship there is some level of mirroring as you want to please your partner, you may have mirrored him too.  I will strongly encourage you to follow your 'gut feeling' with regards to resuming a relationship.  Since he is 'pressuring you big-time', this is an 'extinction burst' where he may be getting desperate - make sure you have a safety plan in place.


It's been a painful day. I feel okay right now, but it's been excruciating facing what I've been putting off for so long, who he really is, who I really am (clearly more codependent than I ever have been in my life) and that it's completely over. Life without him. There has been sooooo many ups and downs in the nearly three years we've been together (on and off) that it's been very destabilising and I know I need to really dig into that self care now.

You are showing tremendous insight into your own relationship dynamic with him.  I too find that I am more codependent than I would like, even though I have very few traits left (I am working on them).

If you are looking for a free resource, there is CODA.org, they have 12-step meetings, most of the people there have a lot more serious issues than I do; however, I do take comfort in sharing my story with them, and how it is progressing.  Melody Beattie has a book "Codependent no more" that has sold millions of copies, while it is not written in the context of PD'd relationships, it has many tools, and checklists, make sure you get the most recent edition (2022), as there is a tremendous amount of new material in it.  Ms. Beattie estimates that 45% of the general population are codependent; however, if you ask Google, it indicates >90% are codependent - I tend to believe the number is somewhere in between.

Regarding self-care, for each person it is different.  I will share what I do, in the day time, I go out for a fairly intense bike ride 1-2 hours I find to be ideal 2-3 times per week.  I bike up a mountain, in a wilderness like area on fire roads, next to cascading mountain streams, that way I get sunshine, exercise, fresh air, and being out in nature - best of all worlds.  At night, I take nice long hot showers, or I get lost in a good movie/tv series/book.  Individual therapy is part of my self-care, as I can bounce ideas off my therapist to apply to myself and others.  If you Google 'self-care' there are so many ways to fill your cup, find out what works best with you and stick with it.

Right now where you are at, is likely the worst place to be emotionally, and I suspect you are in a lot emotional pain.  You will get through this, we are here for you.  Talk/vent, share only what you want.  If you have any good friends, or someone you can talk to, do that.  I know you are looking for a therapist, and I strongly encourage you to do so, as I find a lot of comfort in sharing stuff like you shared with a therapist, as they can often give you a 3rd person perspective on the situation that can help guide you to a safe place.

Take care with self care.

SD

[jaded7]

I decided the best way to deal with it was to make sure I was upfront about my needs, communicate with total honesty and not excuse any bad behaviour and see where that took me. Only took a day for something to come up...

Just before we broke up, we had a weird conversation that accidentally ended up unearthing this woman that he follows on Instagram, and her page is extremely raunchy, kind of soft-porn photos. He ended up admitting she had been messaging him, wanting to potentially work with him. I said I wasn't comfortable with him following accounts with images that explicit, but especially if it was someone he knew and was interacting with. It triggered an argument, where I tried to listen to and validate his side and said I knew he wasn't doing anything wrong, but it's just how I felt about it, it just felt disrespectful to me somehow... but he had a huge over-reaction and blew the whole conversation up like a bomb...

_________

Anyway, it came up today, I asked if she ended up working for him, he said no, then looked uncomfortable. The conversation progressed and I ended up asking him, did you end up following her again on Insta? He said no he didn't, and tried to make it look like I was being ridiculous. I asked the same question again, he said no, I don't want to see pictures like that of someone I know... so I admitted I knew he was following her again... he had nothing to say at all. Just silence.

___________


And I think this is what it boiled down to for me, not the fact that he's got mental health issues, not the fact that he's made mistakes, but the fact that he's been dishonest so many times along the way, and twisted stories and changed things up to the point my head is totally swirling. I simply cannot feel safe in a relationship with someone who can't tell the truth, which is one of my core values as a person.

SeekingTheWay....I feel like you approached this really, really well. And at least from my perspective you are seeing things pretty clearly.

The huge explosion, overreaction is so so characteristic of what I've read of BPD and of my experience. Of course it's disrespectful what he's doing with the Instagram woman. You know this, and he knows it too. That's why he exploded and blew the conversation up. It's a technique to avoid shame. I don't think you mentioned what he turned to when he exploded but I will guess that it was attacking you and blaming you for any number of things: 'you are too jealous', 'you don't trust him', 'you're always looking for something', 'you make everything into a big deal', etc. etc.

I experienced the very same thing when I brought up a concern in the relationship, which I did rarely. It would always cause and explosion of anger and accusations, thus taking the heat off of her: 'you take everything to the worst possible level!', 'you need mental health help!', 'you're just trying to start a fight!', 'this is a terrible time to bring this up!'

The quiet when you brought it up again and told him you knew he was following and interacting with her...shame. I bet he wouldn't look you in the eye. People feeling shame- if they've exhausted the explosion route-will look down on the ground or away. I once told my ex 'honey, when you don't return my calls or texts for days at a time or even a week, it's hurtful and confusing and dehumanizing, especially when you say you love me', said it a loving, calm tone. She stared at the ground, and then followed at 50 minute session of belittling me and putting me down and telling me she's been spending time with her friends since they understand her life. Then she stormed away from me, leaving me sitting alone at the table in a deli an upscale grocery store.

And finally, the twisting stories and going around and around. Oh so familiar and absolutely characteristic of cluster B personality disorders. And within all of that is lies, mistruths, mischaracterizations of what happened and what you said/did, so you get caught on the merry-go-round of trying to establish the facts of what happened. In my last conversation with ex I went back and counted at least 6 lies/mistruths/misrepresentations of what was said and done. Just obvious untruths, so obvious that I remember I said to a friend later that night that she has a serious mental illness.

I wish you well and am glad to see you are thinking clearly. The attachment will be strong, I know that myself, but you can certainly hold your head up high.