how to open dialogue?

[cherryblossom]

 

Ive been on detaching boards mainly.

I'm in a real pickle.

I just think I have to face it I'm not ready to detach. In truth I still hope every day that I'll check my spam and I'll have a text from him or I've recently noticed our thread is still active on whatsapp so I keep checking that now. I think I need to put myself through an attempt to talk to him and deal with the consequences before I will be ready fully to detach. I have never felt this way about anyone before. I know there were many flaws and difficulties but there was equal good -I truly would never have stayed as long. Not even the fact he has a replacement seems to put the nail in the coffin for me. This is because she is not what he finds attractive (or so he said to me when we were together ) and it makes me think he has chosen her purposely as he knows he has said that to me in past so he knows it wont cause me any real jealousy.

I do not feel jealous of this person in any way I just think it is a farce at end of day as I'm sure she doesn't know what she let herself in for -I feel he needed a sycophant who will not encourage him to get help (however this is speculation as I have no idea in reality)

I go on this site daily as a replacement fix for attachment to ex so I feel I may as well reach out to the real thing and deal with whatever comes my way. I.e more silence, anger or maybe even openness -I feel like if I get anger or silence it will help confirm to me once and for all that we did not have the special connection that I thought we truly had.

I am crying on an almost daily basis anyhow -what more harm can it do?

I feel I need to ask " where did we go wrong?" "why couldn't he talk to me?" and "when did he stop caring about me?" What are the best ways to open dialogue about these issues?

He has a replacement (as far as I know still has -I blocked him on facebook in April) I have no idea about his feelings towards this person. He kept the fact he had a replacement hidden from me and was irritated when he realized I had found out -well he basically ignored my texts and has given me silent treatment ever since

I feel like he has done what he was scared I might do -as I met him at the tail end of a 4 year relationship that was dead and on its way out. Thing is our relationship was not dead we have never stopped loving each other as far as I know. He was ashamed at the sexual dysfunction difficulties his meds created and he admitted he found it hard and would say to me why the hell would I want to stay with him -there must be something wrong with me if I do -and that he is was getting obsessed with looking at other women as he felt emasculated from the issue with the meds -he is just so insecure

He said to a friend's boyfriend at time of split he still loves me but he has F'd up, he said to me as we split he loves me but doesn't want to be in a relationship with me, he said we should have stayed good friends we shouldn't have become a couple, he said to a mutual friend he would kill them if he tried it on with me-he said we would always love each other, he said one of his sisters (i dk which one and all are in long term relationships) has someone they love but know they can never be with... .thing is all this came out blue as he convinced me to move in with him (Nov 14-I moved out Oct 15-things dysregulating from June 15) as he was going to dedicate himself to recovery

I just think if he truly felt something for her he would be up front and let me know so I can get on with my life-but silence

oorrrrr... .

Do I have to accept he is a complete ass and just leave it alone as friends and sis would say?
Has my self esteem been eroded so low that I am willing to hypothetically take someone back who disrespected me left me for someone else without being honest and upfront?

he doesn't even respect himself I begged him to learn how to love himself and he said he didn't and it is ok to not love yourself but love those around you

I just can't let go

I'm an independent female, have good job, friends, opportunities -none of it seems to matter -I have never felt so detached from life -nothing seems to matter -I would never end my life i would not do that to my sister -but I just cannot tolerate going through life like this -my cognitive function often feels slow -I literally feel like brain cells have died in this trauma, I think I'm mild/moderate depressed.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey cb, It sounds to me like you are experiencing withdrawal symptoms, which can happen in the aftermath of a BPD r/s.  It's painful, no doubt, and you are probably trying to ease the pain by opening a dialogue, right?  Problem is, most who recycle wind up in the same place, except with more hurt the next time around.  I suggest acknowledging your feelings, which is what you re doing, without the need to act on them.  Just let your feelings be for the time being is my advice.

LuckyJim

[cherryblossom]

Thanks LJ there just feels like a lot of unfinished business. I know that in reality I would be terrified of giving him another chance and some of my friends and my sis would be upset with me. Are you suggesting it is futile to try and detach when feeling like this? I just don't know when I will decide to let go. You say "most" but there's always that "what if" ... .in some ways is the delusion trying to protect from the utter misery of truly accepting it is over? Maybe it is good to be a bit deluded for a while and let the sadness gradually seep through until feels safe to detach? I think it is harder for me as I am not very medical model minded and cannot view someone purely as a label. I do respect your experience however and that you are trying to protect and support. Thank you x

[prettyflowers]

It sounds like you feel in limbo right now and are trying to make the best decision for yourself and your heart while processing enormous hurt. I think we attempt to "bargain" with ourselves in all kinds of ways when grieving and withdrawing from a PD relationship. Sadly, most business with PD partners remains unfinished whether we stay or go.

Thanks LJ there just feels like a lot of unfinished business... .I think it is harder for me as I am not very medical model minded and cannot view someone purely as a label.

I fully respect that you don't prefer the lens of the medical model, but I have to agree with LuckyJim when he says "Problem is, most who recycle wind up in the same place, except with more hurt the next time around." The label exists because there is an identifiable pattern of behavior, and part of that pattern with BPD relationships is that there is no such thing as closure or a communication breakthrough that results in smooth sailing, just more hurt when we ask the PD partner, explicitly or implicitly, to help us make sense of the storm.

You can't "just" accept that he's an ass, but acceptance will come if you commit to doing the hard work of letting go. (I know in my gut that this is what I, too, need to be doing in order to stop the pain cycle of my current relationship.) You say that you're crying everyday anyway, so what's the difference. I challenge you (and myself) to ask, if you're crying everyday anyway, why not suffer through the withdrawal for now to give your future self a chance at peace and joy. The difference is one of resignation versus hope.

[cherryblossom]

God it's so hard as i feel like the only way il get peace and joy is we get back together and he dedicates himself to recovery. I dont want to be with anyone else or have a child with anyone else. I dont want to go on an internet dating site. We had a great story of how we met. Id feel like a failure if i went on a dating site. I just don't think il ever feel good about myself to that level ever again. I know as i type i sound over dramatic and i used to mock that type of talk but here i am genuinely feeling that low. I feel in awkward situation as feel he has stolen my last chance at being happy ive bounced back from a hell of a lot but this has done me in

[Lucky Jim]

Are you suggesting it is futile to try and detach when feeling like this?

No, I'm saying that feeling the way you are is part of the detaching process.

i feel like the only way il get peace and joy is we get back together and he dedicates himself to recovery.

I'm sure that is your hope, though I would suggest that it may be unrealistic to expect a different outcome.

Plenty of us, including me, have been through a recycle.  Maybe you need to find out for yourself?  Certainly no one here will judge you if you decide to give it another try.

LuckyJim

[livednlearned]

Many pwBPD do not see the effects of their behavior on others. To do so would be to admit failure, and this is extremely painful, too painful given the fragility of self.

Wanting to connect with him under the current state you're in means bringing to bear the totality of your own hurt. He likely has many, many coping mechanisms for dealing with exactly that kind of hurt. Alcohol being one. Distancing being another.

You want him to provide answers when he likely has none. He has only the reality he has, and no other.

What is likely attractive to him is you when you were the woman he met. Can you get back to that place?

[cherryblossom]

 

I dont know if i can get back, it feels like a distant memory and i thought he loved me the whole way through i thought he loved everything about me - i dont see how im any different now- im very hurt but im a human being there is no shame in being so hurt and I thought he loved my open honest cards on the table approach so for me to ask him  now " im wracking my brains day and night to try and work out the moment you began to hate me, and what i did or didnt do to cause that" feels an ok thing to do ---'' i would havd sent that in the beginning and i want to send it now - he always knew i was an upfront open person and i laid my cards on the table to him about how important it is for me that if someone has mh issues they seek help for them and support as i was a child of mentally unstable parents and had to survive that ---- so he knows all this. He has just turned his back on me and on trying to make sense of his disorder. If u looked at my facebook ud think i was a social butterfly having the time of my life and to some extent i am but it is a mask-with this constant layer of pain... .i think he thought i was superhuman when we met and of course im not but i dont like to wallow as a victim - i dont know what changed his opinion of me - he used to look up to me and love me and now he hates me and i dont know why - can u understand why i at least want answers? I feel like the fact ive blocked him on fbk would make him think im the person he 1st met because it shows a limit of taking crap - but that's a lie isnt it? Because i took lots of crap? See im just so confused. I feel very cynical atm. I wish i could have the positive outlook on life that i had when i met him, but its been sucked away from me ... .he made me feel so special ... .to go to nothing is very hard. If he liked my positive attitude why did he do all he could to crush it out of me? I just dont know the turning point of when he started to hate me

[Lucky Jim]

I feel like the fact ive blocked him on fbk would make him think im the person he 1st met because it shows a limit of taking crap - but that's a lie isnt it? Because i took lots of crap?

Why should you take c••p?  LJ

[Meili]

I mean this with the utmost kindness and respect CB, but you sound a lot like I did when I chose to stop drinking heavily years ago. I would rationalize why one drink wouldn't hurt. I would try to argue I needed to drink because of the pain. I would bargain.

But, there's a reason that it sounds so familiar to me. As LJ pointed out, you are going through withdrawal. Your body became accustom to the chemicals that were present when you felt the highs. It is searching for those chemicals again and believes that the only source to provide them is your pwBPD.

Here's the problem though, you reach out (first drink) and don't experience the high as you hope. So, you are still going through withdrawal, and now have added shame on top of those feelings. You search for a way to numb that pain also, the only thing that you can think of is your pwBPD (second drink). They cycle continues.

Alternatively, the first drink makes you feel a bit better, but you're still struggling with the pain, it just wasn't enough, so you take the second drink. And it spirals from there.

The only way to truly get through the pain is to get through it. When you are strong enough that you can reach out for some reason other than to ease the pain, then that's a different story (alcoholics don't have that option because they will generally never be strong enough).  But, until you have the strength that you need, when you know that you're good no matter what happens, giving in to the withdrawal will only serve as to reset the coo-coo clock.

[cherryblossom]

Yes but what is wrong with finding answers? I dont think anyone understands just how out of the blue and in the dark ive been - im an upfront person who talks about feelings and he always knew that about me -so what is wrong with that? I dont care about getting back now

[Meili]

I know that it feels like no one probably understands. I went through that too. I kept telling myself that my situation was different from everyone else's, and that we were special. Well, we are all different, and we are each special. That doesn't change all the similarities in what we experience though.

No one is going to judge you CB. It's your life and we will all respect your choices. We are just concerned that you'll end up even more hurt and still not have any of the answers that you seek.

[livednlearned]

Yes but what is wrong with finding answers?

People with BPD experience levels of emotional arousal that lead to cognitive dysregulation. We cannot know for sure why he decided to end the relationship, only that for some reason, leaving the relationship was a way for him to solve what was a problem for him.

It could be that his own self-invalidation, anxiety, impulsivity were triggered. You want growth, he is not ready.

PwBPD seek merger fantasies that are not sustainable, it is inevitable that there will be a rift, likely of no other fault except that the fantasy could not be sustained.

Uncertainty produces a lot of anxiety, and feeling unbearable anxiety, we seek ways to soothe ourselves. Some are good ideas, some are not.

My concern is that you are in an emotionally vulnerable state, hoping he can provide answers about his own behavior when it is likely he himself has few to offer. The nature of BPD makes it difficult to confront failure, the shame is excruciating and shame is one of the most intense emotions a person can feel.

What we work on here is to center ourselves so we can use the skills to decrease emotional arousal and practice self-care so we remain strong enough, to avoid emotional injury.

In seeking answers from him, it might be a good idea to role play with a therapist the different responses you are likely to get, and increase the chances that you will not experience further injury.

[cherryblossom]

Thank u all

I already predicted things were going to get worse for me and id go backwards due to tragic death of a client and my therapist away for 3 weeks it feels like an eternity she is back next week. Yes shame is f'ng horrible - Ive been feeling excruciating shame - im ashamed that when he saw me struggling with some of my greatest insecurities and difficulties with my foo - he dumped me. My worst nightmare happened. Thinking someone loves you warts and all to discover no - when i did everything in my power to accept his demons. He turned his back on me because I wasn't a superhuman able to tolerate endless ammounts of stress. My biggest fear was that someone i love not being able to cope with the fraught dynamic i have with my mother at times - i even said to a past therapist i worry that it will put someone off - she said not if they are a decent person who truly loves you --when we met i was coming out of a tail end of her giving me a years worth of silent treatment cos my ex couldnt come to a xmas meal and she didnt even like him! Me and my BPDex bonded over discussions of the difficulties with narcissistic parents - he knows the struggles ive had - so i feel like in some ways because i dont have a perfect foo this has led to the downfall of my relationship because he couldn't tolerate it - so u see i know shame very well - and it is excruciating and Ive lived most of my life with it -i thought with him something good happened - and the sick , sad thing is yhat he will have no empathy for me and probably thinks he was tricked or something into believing i was perfect - but i never professed to b ever and he knew that... .i dont understand BPD as when i read articles written by people with BPD they seem like really sensitive empathic people - who say they really value their loved ones and he certainly was the majority of relationship which is why i dont understand the switch - i guess it's the detached protector mode - im a f'ng soldier I feel my pain - i dont screw over other people because of it - but that's BPD i guess and I never knew he had it till it was too late - i cant keep beating myself up over it - im a human being - he knows what he did to me was wrong as he called himself evil after - but he still rather get with someone else than repair with me - ive got to find a way of reaching out that is helpful and non harmful to me - i will take advice and and seek guidance from my therapist xxx

[patientandclear]

CB -- I've learned the hard way that, legitimate as our wounds are when our SOs wBPD abandon, replace us etc. and that exacerbates pre-existing injuries, what does not work is to try to work through or address those pre-existing injuries via continued relating with our BPD people.  That healing needs to happen independently.  I've been working every so slowly and continuously on that for five years.  Yes!  Five years.  And I'm not finished.

Only now, barely, am I able to engage with the man in my life wBPD without re-injuring myself and without putting him in a posture which really isn't his work or his business.  It is not his job to heal me.  I have been so caught in my own hurt and healing cycle that I was having a very hard time hearing him and accepting him on his own terms.  That's understandable ... .but it's not going to lead to anything very productive between two people.

I hear how hurt you are and I believe anyone would be.  In all likelihood he will not be able to explain it -- he likely has denial and distortions at work making that very hard.  The best my ex wBPD has ever been able to offer me about why things broke down with us long ago is "I don't know why I couldn't stay with you.  It doesn't make much sense."  Most of the time he states reasons (which, indeed, do not make much objective sense).  He doesn't understand what's going on compulsively and internally and subconsciously.

I did have a decent friendship with him after, but only after I waited nearly a year, until I could engage with him without being overtly resentful and hurt.  I was still not prepared to conduct an ongoing emotionally complex relationship with him.  I did not trust him and I didn't know how to protect myself.  I do now.  But again ... .that's five years of continuous trauma recovery therapy later.  And I didn't do that therapy with this goal in mind.

 

[cherryblossom]

Thank you for your insights

I don't expect him to heal me   -I would just find it a lot easier to heal if I knew the truthful real reasons why he split with me -I guess I have to accept as adults we have freedom to make choices and he chose to end the relationship

currently they spin round my head like a washing machine ranging from:

You're too good for me
You need someone that appreciates you more v's you are the person I respect most in the world
You're f'd anyway
I don't want your parents as grandparents if we had child
I love you, am insanely attracted to you but I don't want to be in a relationship with you
I think I'm making a terrible mistake by leaving you-I need to stop drinking
We should have just stayed good friends
I love cb but I've f'd up so am drinking to cope (told to my friend's boyfriend)
I'm too messed up to be with someone I need to focus on myself (then plasters a f'in picture of himself and replacement on fbk profile 6 months after I move out)

on top of all this it is hard for me to not feel extreme compassion towards him and I still worry about him

I hate that it ended on bad note as I was so angry with his behaviour-but i was heartbroken -i never thought he would end things -no matter how bad they were i would never have ended it as I had strong faith in us.

I tried to send a positive last text after bombardment of angry texts when I found out he had a replacement through his sister---- but I couldn't help myself --I put a little sarky dig of "good luck" at the end of it. He tried to get me to turn a blind eye to my pain the last time I saw him face to face and I wouldn't do it-he said the universe will implode on itself -life is too short -why wont you speak to me properly?

I hate that I still love and care for him and have no way of showing that

I feel like I let him down because I didn't validate enough

I hate that I'm realising a lot of his behaviour was abusive/manipulative -it belies what his true good nature is

I want him to know I don't hate him -I guess I need to ask therapist best way to word something that lets him know that -but also not letting him off hook with how much pain he caused -it's a difficult balance -I guess I don't owe him anything after what he has put me through -but it's not that straight forward in these cases is it?

This long drawn out silent treatment has made things worse -time seems not to be a healer but making things worse

I'm on my own healing path always was always will be -I was not looking out for a damaged person to get involved with -quite the opposite -he had issues but was very self aware and independent---he was like me- or so I thought

[Lucky Jim]

Hey CB, Don't beat yourself up!  It sounds like you are focused on him and his reasons for leaving, whereas I would suggest shifting the focus to you and your needs.  Be good to yourself!  Listen to your gut feelings!  That things ended on a bad note is disappointing, but is quite common when a BPD r/s ends.

on top of all this it is hard for me to not feel extreme compassion towards him and I still worry about him

Why are you so worried about HIM, and not yourself?  Presumably because you have codependent tendencies and its normal for you to put the needs of others ahead of your own.  Does this sound like you? 

You didn't let him down.  It's doubtful that you could have done anything to change the outcome, sad to say.

Suggest you sit with your feelings and just observe, without the need to do anything.

LuckyJim

[Meili]

  CB!

I can relate to everything that you wrote! I've been there and in many ways I still am there. I still have extreme compassion for my x, but I'm also learning to have compassion for myself. Things ended on a bad note, as they have each and every time. I've always wanted to make amends. I've learned that I'll never be able to do that. It's a vicious cycle.

I also wanted to know the truth about how everything played out. I was given a list of things over the course of my r/s with my x that contradicted one another. I have learned that I just have to accept that I'll never know, even if my x told me, I'd never know if I could trust it.

I had to learn to deal with loving someone and never being able to show her again also. I just trust that she knows, and I'm now able to love someone who truly deserves my love; me.

Feeling that I didn't validate my x enough was a big one for me. It filled me with guilt and shame. Like you, I'm no stranger to shame. The guilt was overwhelming however. I've learned that I cannot go back and fix the past, only change how I act in the future. I'm now validating her choices by respecting her wishes.

I don't believe that you own him anything btw. You did the best that you could at the time and given the conditions. What more could you have done other than your best?

[livednlearned]

I would just find it a lot easier to heal if I knew the truthful real reasons why he split with me -I guess I have to accept as adults we have freedom to make choices and he chose to end the relationship

currently they spin round my head like a washing machine ranging from:

You're too good for me
You need someone that appreciates you more v's you are the person I respect most in the world
You're f'd anyway
I don't want your parents as grandparents if we had child
I love you, am insanely attracted to you but I don't want to be in a relationship with you
I think I'm making a terrible mistake by leaving you-I need to stop drinking
We should have just stayed good friends
I love cb but I've f'd up so am drinking to cope (told to my friend's boyfriend)
I'm too messed up to be with someone I need to focus on myself (then plasters a f'in picture of himself and replacement on fbk profile 6 months after I move out)

It is possible he felt all of these things, or a combination of them. His feelings are labile and he has primitive coping mechanisms, plus his needs (being BPD, being OCD) are intense and he is compelled to satiate them, often impulsively.

It says a lot about you that you want to repair the relationship and make amends, to try and understand what happened. You recently suffered a serious loss and are emotionally vulnerable. Is this the right time to reach out to him?

[cherryblossom]

Yeah i blatantly have co depedent traits although i hate that label as it's a normal human desire to have a successful relationship - i guess it helps to choose someone that is likely to work with - if crazy / codependent is all you know from foo makes it hard! I genuinely did not think he had issues and i was gutted when i realised he did - but i was in too deep by then. I am determined to make gold out of this pain and i will. Im feeling slightly better today. Im going to do a post on the personal inventory board to help motivate me and for more positivity xxx

[cherryblossom]

Hi lnl

When u say says a lot about me - what do u think it says - that im pathetic and damaged or something positive?

I'm feeling a little more human today with sparks of my true self and glimmers of appreciationof things around me. I am fragile atm. I do need to focus on me more. Making music and being creative makes me feel alive and well I will focus back on that xxx

[livednlearned]

Hi lnl

When u say says a lot about me - what do u think it says - that im pathetic and damaged or something positive?

You are kind and caring and compassionate 

It matters more, though, what you think of yourself.

I'm feeling a little more human today with sparks of my true self and glimmers of appreciationof things around me. I am fragile atm. I do need to focus on me more. Making music and being creative makes me feel alive and well I will focus back on that xxx

 

[cherryblossom]

 
Thank you all for your kind caring responses. They have certainly helped me get things in perspective xxx