Bad mouthing a BPD parent

[takingandsending]

I have been reading a lot of information lately on the co-parenting board to try to deal with how to better communicate/resolve issues with my uBPDw in raising our S4 and S9. And I know that several of you on this board have posted on how you are handling communication with your children of various ages about BPD.

The dilemma that I have is how to talk to my young children in a way that supports/helps them but doesn't paint my wife black. The lessons on the co-parenting board, my T, my own history in my FOO, and just common sense tell me it is very damaging for kids to hear negative or derogatory comments by one parent about the other parent. But, what about those times that the BPD parent (or even the non, for that matter) is doing something so crappy that the poor kid has no chance of making sense of it in their world? What do you do then?

Here's an example: BPDw is lying in bed, feeling depressed and low energy. Has been for a couple of days. I am actually hovering outside the door of our bedroom, watching kids in the play room and also keeping an ear open for my wife to see if she needs anything (this was back in walking on eggshells days before I knew about BPD from our MC). My wife calls out for my younger son to "Come give mommy a hug" and my older son, often painted black, runs out of the play room, steps over me in the hall and runs in to see his mom - super eager to please. Then I hear, "You're not [younger son]! I don't want you." S9 (think he was eight at that time) comes out of my bedroom with his head down and slowly walks back into the play room. I stopped him and hugged him, and I let him know that I saw what happened. I reassured him that I love him and that I can see he is hurt and I am here to talk if he wants to. [He has a hard time expressing feelings, typically lashes out when he is feeling something, shows signs of BPD traits.]

But now, as the BPD painting black continues in fits and starts, is that really it? This is the best I can give him? He was 8 years old, for god's sake! Who deserves to be discarded at 8 years old? I want to say, look, your mom is a sick woman. I screwed up marrying her. You don't deserve this! How do I validate his experience so that he doesn't feel like something is wrong with him? How do I validate without venting my own incredible anger at her when she does sh!t like this? I know that it is very undermining to bad mouth a spouse to your kids, but sometimes don't we have to explain to give them some validation for our kid's confusing, disorienting experiences? Or does it just make it worse?

I just feel so much conflict inside of me. I get triggered because much of how she has verbally abused me she also does to S9, but I need to remember that he is having his own experience. It is just so wrong when an adult makes the kids responsible for their feelings. It's such an utter lie, and it is being done to someone who doesn't have the reasoning, emotional fortitude or wherewithal to fight it. And I can see how taking out my frustration and anger by enlisting my son would be really wrong and a lie, too. I don't want to do that, but it leaves me really wondering how do I help him cope with BPD when it's something that I myself struggle to cope with?

I will say that my wife tries to play by the rules of no bashing the other parent, but I often hear from my kids what I don't do or can't do that come straight from mom.

Any thoughts out there?

If this is better served on the co-parenting board, feel free to move it.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[hellosun]

As a kid, it helped me to have a parent appologize, if the parent did something hurtful or made a mistake. If there is a way for you to appologize for your wife's unkind behaviour, as well as to validate your child's pain and anger, then I think that would be healthy.

I agree that it would not be healthy to vent to your child, or make your child feel like he has to be the "grown up" in relation to his mother, because that could lead to parentification.

In your example, what you did for your kid sounds really loving and helpful. I wish my parents had done that for be even once when I was eight years old. xD You sound like an awesome father.

Perhaps taking your kids out, especially the older one who is struggling, individually for some alone time (away from their mother), could be an healthy exercise in self care? I don't know what your son likes, but even going to a fast food place, or a waterpark, or whatever, for an hour or two. Maybe you already do this. If so, I'd take the opportunity while one-on-one to explain to your nine-year-old, in kid terms, that his mom's poor treatment of him is not normal, and that it's NOT his fault. She has issues which affect her ability to know when she is hurting others.

I dealt with a mentally unstable parent when I was a young child (age six to ten), and no one ever explained to me what was wrong. I think it would have helped me deal better with it if someone had.

[takingandsending]

Thanks, hellosun!

I am taking S9 out for a backpack trip this weekend. I feel like we need an activity we do regularly, though, to feed him some time away. Of course, he loves school and the positive attention that he gets there ... .not the same. I have begun telling him that mom has a hard time expressing her feelings in a way that doesn't harm others. He gets that. Sometimes, when he gets upset and lashes out, and she then responds with becoming dyregulated, shaming, blaming, etc., he tells her that it's not helping if she is yelling at him. Unfortunately, as we know, it rarely changes the course of the pwBPD.

And I do agree on apologizing to kids when we parents lose it and say unkind things. I will try to apologize for my wife's behavior to him, but I don't want to make excuses and invalidate his experience. It's just hard sometimes to avoid painting her in a bad light when she acts badly. Judgmental, I know. Still, I get triggered when kids get hurt.

[vortex of confusion]

And I do agree on apologizing to kids when we parents lose it and say unkind things. I will try to apologize for my wife's behavior to him, but I don't want to make excuses and invalidate his experience. It's just hard sometimes to avoid painting her in a bad light when she acts badly. Judgmental, I know. Still, I get triggered when kids get hurt.

Be very, very careful with this. Your wife's behavior is NOT your responsibility. You cannot control the things that your wife says and does. I don't think it is a good idea to set the example of apologizing for somebody else's behavior.

Don't make excuses! In the situation that you gave about the hugs, I think it would be okay to say something like, "Man, that was mean." and then proceed to give him a hug and tell him how much you enjoy giving him hugs.

I think you can call out crappy behavior without calling the person crappy. Saying something like, "Not hugging you was kind of a mean thing to do." At no point does that say, "Mom is mean because she didn't hug you." I have gotten pretty good at calling out the action without really saying anything ugly about the person to the kid. Really, when dealing with kids and this stuff, it is best for it to be a part of an ongoing conversation. I think it is okay to tell a kid something like, "Yeah, I know. I get frustrated with mom/dad too. I still love him/her to pieces but I completely understand your frustration/hurt/whatever." You can share the frustration without getting into the parentification stuff.

[takingandsending]

VOC,

Well, you pretty much read my mind. I don't want to apologize for my wife's behaviors. She is who she is. It's her responsibility. I tried that route for years, and it just left me in a weird awkward place with people.

But the only time that I would consider an exception to this is if it would benefit my kids. I don't know that it would. And I do let them know when they are struggling with a certain behavior that I struggle with it, too. I just don't want to migrate to the place of enlisting them, being their pal, having them be my confidante in their mom's illness. That feels all wrong to me, yet it is so easy to want to do.

I was doing better on this whole score when I was seeking more help for myself. Bottom line: I don't want my kids to be my venting place. Even when they are being railroaded by their mom, I want to keep it about them, not me. But I do want good, healthy ways to validate them.

Is it okay to judge their mom as mean or impatient or selfish and use those words? That's my basic question. I sense that that is not - again it feels like it is becoming about me, not them.

VOC - how do you walk that line with your kids?

[vortex of confusion]

VOC - how do you walk that line with your kids?

Very carefully!

One of the things that I have tried to do is depersonalize things. I have tried to talk to the kids about general behaviors and set it up as though we are working on it as a family. For example, the kids sometimes have melt downs. When they are having a melt down, I try to be there for them and not take it personally. It is difficult to explain. It is creating a safe space for everyone to have their emotions. It is okay to be mad and upset but it is not okay to be mean or hurt other people when you are upset. It isn't okay for an adult to do it and it isn't okay for a kid to do it. It is applying the same standards across the board. If anybody in this house starts acting in unkind ways, then I am going to call them on it whether it is dad or the kids. Likewise, if I am being unkind, the kids know that it is okay for them to say something to me about it.

I have tried to make it less about one specific person and have tried to move it more towards, "These are healthy ways of interacting and these are NOT healthy ways of interacting." If the kids come to me complaining about dad, I can agree that the behavior was not a good behavior and talk about alternative ways that somebody might be able to handle a similar situation in a healthier manner. I can talk to them about how they felt about what dad did or said without making it about me and without bad mouthing dad.

The other thing to be very careful about is distinguishing between normal parenting stuff and stuff that isn't normal parenting. The best way to explain that is dad gets upset with a kid because she isn't listening. He gets a little too grumpy about it so kid comes to me and says, "Mom, dad yelled at me." It is important to get the whole story and weed out what is going on. Things like "What were you doing when dad yelled at you?" It is being able to say that dad was justified at being upset because you completely ignored him. Was yelling the best solution? Probably not. Would you have listened to dad if he hadn't raised his voice? Stuff like that so that the kids aren't trying to play you against each other. It can be very difficult to walk that line and make sure that nobody is getting picked on or singled out.

[takingandsending]

The other thing to be very careful about is distinguishing between normal parenting stuff and stuff that isn't normal parenting. The best way to explain that is dad gets upset with a kid because she isn't listening. He gets a little too grumpy about it so kid comes to me and says, "Mom, dad yelled at me." It is important to get the whole story and weed out what is going on. Things like "What were you doing when dad yelled at you?" It is being able to say that dad was justified at being upset because you completely ignored him. Was yelling the best solution? Probably not. Would you have listened to dad if he hadn't raised his voice? Stuff like that so that the kids aren't trying to play you against each other. It can be very difficult to walk that line and make sure that nobody is getting picked on or singled out.

I do apply the kind/civil speech rules unilaterally. I try to make it as general statements. My wife still reacts as if I am criticizing her, which is her prerogative. But I do struggle with what you mention above. My S9 is a master at manipulating my reaction to his mom's overreactions to worm out of responsibility for his actions. He has BPD traits, and often, no matter what efforts I may make to help him understand the effects of his own behavior, it triggers volcanic eruptions in him. It's all further complicated by the fact that my wife piles on with a vengeance whenever I do try to talk about a bad behavior that he engaged in. If let her know that I am handling it, she complains about being undermined (i.e. invalidated) as a parent.

I find this whole dynamic very difficult to sort out. Yes, I want to communicate that it's okay for everyone to have feelings, but that how they are communicated matters. And there are okay ways to communicate and not okay ways to communicate. But with two BPD like people in the same room, even saying that can be lighting the fuse. 

[vortex of confusion]

I do apply the kind/civil speech rules unilaterally. I try to make it as general statements. My wife still reacts as if I am criticizing her, which is her prerogative. But I do struggle with what you mention above. My S9 is a master at manipulating my reaction to his mom's overreactions to worm out of responsibility for his actions. He has BPD traits, and often, no matter what efforts I may make to help him understand the effects of his own behavior, it triggers volcanic eruptions in him. It's all further complicated by the fact that my wife piles on with a vengeance whenever I do try to talk about a bad behavior that he engaged in. If let her know that I am handling it, she complains about being undermined (i.e. invalidated) as a parent.

At some point, you may need to simply say, "This behavior is NOT acceptable. PERIOD."

Something else to consider and think about is whether or not you can stand by and let her do her thing. It is difficult to explain. Depending on the situation, you might cut her off and say, "I got this" or you might even let her interrupt and say her peace. It is like walking a tight rope. I have tried to do a better job of assessing whether or not I need to step in or step back. One of the things that I was bad about was stepping in when he had it. So it became this tit for tat thing where if I was trying to deal with something, he would step in and interrupt me and then I would do the same to him. With or without BPD, my husband and I were undermining each other.

I find this whole dynamic very difficult to sort out. Yes, I want to communicate that it's okay for everyone to have feelings, but that how they are communicated matters. And there are okay ways to communicate and not okay ways to communicate. But with two BPD like people in the same room, even saying that can be lighting the fuse. 

Then don't say it in a room full of people. It is way more effective to get people off to the side and talk to them one on one. There have been times when there was conflict. Afterwards, I would talk to my husband alone and out of ear shot of the kids so I could validate his frustration with the kids. Then, I will go talk to the kid and validate her frustration with dad. That way nobody is being singled out or feels like they are under the microscope. Once things chill, you tell your kid, "Hey, would you come talk to me for a minute." And that is when you share some of that stuff.