Another Walk Of Shame

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hey Gemsforeyes, I do agree with your statement re: "premonderance of anger amongst men".  I know you are speaking as a woman vs men. I could go on and on. There is a lot of anger in this world of ours; it just seems like people prefer that instead of letting their guard down and being vulnerable to love and happiness... .simply just can't trust it. But happiness is a choice. As a young woman I devoted a lot of my dreams to spiritually discovering my "soulmate". As a post-menopausal woman the lingo has changed to something a lot less nebulous. (Dang estrogen) I apologize if I offend all you guys out there but it seems to me from my experience during this n/c phase older men are pretty much looking for someone to care for them in old age. Blechhhhh. Not at all what I have in mind for the rest of my life as a 21-ish 60 something year old. Maybe I'll have to sit this life out and be (peacefully) alone. Who knows?To healing, Chynna

[Chynna]

Hey Gemsforeyes, I do agree with your statement re: "premonderance of anger amongst men".  I know you are speaking as a woman vs men. I could go on and on. There is a lot of anger in this world of ours; it just seems like people prefer that instead of letting their guard down and being vulnerable to love and happiness... .simply just can't trust it. But happiness is a choice. As a young woman I devoted a lot of my dreams to spiritually discovering my "soulmate". As a post-menopausal woman the lingo has changed to something a lot less nebulous. (Dang estrogen) I apologize if I offend all you guys out there but it seems to me from my experience during this n/c phase older men are pretty much looking for someone to care for them in old age. Blechhhhh. Not at all what I have in mind for the rest of my life as a 21-ish 60 something year old. Maybe I'll have to sit this life out and be (peacefully) alone. Who knows?To healing, Chynna

[Wicker Man]

Not at all what I have in mind for the rest of my life as a 21-ish 60 something year old. Maybe I'll have to sit this life out and be (peacefully) alone. Who knows?To healing, Chynna

Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend. --Camus

Anger is a manifestation of fear.  Fight or flight response.  It is hard to not be afraid as we all age.  We must, in my opinion, fight this fear, understand it and accept it or be doomed to be consumed by it.

I am not ready to give up. Avant!



Wicker Man

[Jeffree]

We also generally speak about anger as if it is bad. Granted, it is usually less appealing an emotional state for someone to exude, BUT it isn't any more or less valid than happiness or many of the other emotions we experience.

J

[Chynna]

Hey WM!  How in the world did you manage to aquire such poignant depth while being in what sounds like a very superficial working environment? Hmmm? ~Chynna:0) ... .never judge a book by it's cover... .

[Wicker Man]

Hey WM!  How in the world did you manage to aquire such poignant depth while being in what sounds like a very superficial working environment? Hmmm? ~Chynna:0) ... .never judge a book by it's cover... .

Read Propaganda by Edward Bernays -the father of modern Propaganda.  The book is short and fascinating.

To be able to manipulate one must be able to step out of a system, observe it, understand it and then move it with invisible hands. 

To be able to 'sell' I must create something enticing -the art lies in making the communication palatable, this allows the message to be delivered and consumed by the public.

Brecht's early work, as an example, was firebrand then he wrote 3 Penny Opera.  The message was imbedded in a beautiful work of art and thus reached a broader audience.

My BPD ex frequently asked me 'What are you?'  I replied I am your monster.  It stuck.  She was 'Small devil' and I was 'Monster'.

I am manipulative, it has been the field of my study --but do my best to not manipulate in my personal life.  Bernays believed propaganda is a powerful tool and a propagandist must be ethical. 

In fact the term Propaganda only acquired a negative connotation after World War 2.  The term was first coined by Pope Gregory XV in the 1600's The Congregatio de propaganda fide (“Congregation for propagating the faith”)

Never judge a book by its cover?

Back to BPD “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”  ― Maya Angelou

I found myself in a system I could not step out of and observe -I was swept away and nearly consumed.  All of my learning, experience, and common sense was overwhelmed, short circuited, and made useless by limerence.

Poignant depth is easy when at arms length.  --live and learn.


Wicker Man

[Jeffree]

When someone shows you who they are believe them; the WORST time.”  ― J

[RomanticFool]

Fascinating discussion all. I'm not sure all older men are angry. I look at my dad, who has been on his own since my mother died 16 years ago. He was angry at first because he lost the love of his life but he was also grief stricken and afraid. I think men and women can become angry for all sorts of reasons, not least through disappointment in love. I think it is true that some men want a woman to look after them but there are plenty who also want a loving an equal relationship where they give as much as they receive. That is certainly what I have always wanted. In the words of Khalil Gibran:

You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Ay, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.


Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.


Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.

Unfortunately, my exBPD married lover was not available to have this kind of mutually respectful and loving relationship. I think my wife is available to have precisely this kind of relationship.

As my time on this earth moves forward, I feel less angry now than when I was in my 30's and 40's. Despite the emotional atrocities I have experienced and profound disappointments such as the r/s with the ex, I experience a real sense of fulfilment from my work. To me a relationship with a woman was the be all and end all of my life. Now things have changed. I have come to understand that I must work on my own independence and inner contentment before I can be psychologically in the right place for a r/s.

The trouble with the r/s with the ex is that it made me co-dependent. Any guidelines which were created by us both for routine and fair play (such as taking it in turns to say 'Good morning' or 'Good night' would always be transgressed by her. She was always the one who would transgress our 'code of love' by saying she had a headache or she wasn't feeling great or she was busy, or she'd been in the garden all day. In that way she retained her enigmatic aloofness and I was left to wonder what she was doing. I cannot be in a r/s with somebody who is constantly moving the goalposts or making me feel vulnerable or unloved or not cherished. So when we have been in regular contact for a month and she suddenly disappears for four days and then calls me angry when I challenge her on this, I can now see very clearly what this has become. It is her minimising and justifying her own behaviour, dipping in and out of the r/s when it suits her, gaslighting to make me the unreasonable party. Most of all, withdrawing because she has no real commitment or desire to commit to me. Despite a couple of years of real feeling, her devaluation of me is complete. I am an undesirable person when I do anything that she doesn't like.

I have just returned from being away for three days for work. My wife is never massively forthcoming when I return from being away. There is no real excitement from her at my return. I usually go into her room where she is often resting (usually from very early in the evening), she then immediately tells me everything she has been doing, often without asking me how my work went. After listening in great detail to what she has been doing, I then usually tell her about my time away and I can see her mind wandering as I talk. She will sometimes surprise me and remember specific details of what I've told her but she gives the impression of a lack of interest. If I challenge her on it, she says I behave towards her in exactly the same way. I have tried hard to establish intimacy in our r/s.

Interestingly my wife is playful. We have our own little games based around certain characters we invent and play out stories which lead to us virtually wrestling with each other at times. My wife seems to love these games and behaves very child like during them and almost hyperactively. She also expresses love through food, though this is decreasing now as we are both on strict fitness regimes. I can see my wife finds it hard to express love in the more conventional way because she does't really know how. She wasn't shown love as a child in any conventional way. I persevere with her because she struggles with these things but she is a good and honest woman deep down.

[Wicker Man]

Have you and your wife read 5 Love Languages -Chapman

It is a bit of a silly book, but here is something there.  Some of the nomenclature he uses is annoying -but it might be worth a look.

The idea is basically can be summed up thusly: Let say she wants you to do the dishes -but instead you mow the lawn 1000 times. 

The result is she is upset because her desires were ignored (the dishes are not done) and you are resentful because you mowed the hell out of the lawn and were unappreciated. 

This is a gross over simplification, but you get the idea.  The dishes and the lawn are analogies for touch, service, time, gifts, validation, intimacy etc.

Over time we stop communicating effectively with our spouses and we drift apart.

Wicker Man

[RomanticFool]

Have you and your wife read 5 Love Languages -Chapman

It is a bit of a silly book, but here is something there.  Some of the nomenclature he uses is annoying -but it might be worth a look.

The idea is basically can be summed up thusly: Let say she wants you to do the dishes -but instead you mow the lawn 1000 times.  

The result is she is upset because her desires were ignored (the dishes are not done) and you are resentful because you mowed the hell out of the lawn and were unappreciated.  

This is a gross over simplification, but you get the idea.  The dishes and the lawn are analogies for touch, service, time, gifts, validation, intimacy etc.

Over time we stop communicating effectively with our spouses and we drift apart.

I have read the book and weirdly, we kind of do them all. Words of devotion we often do for each other, quality time my wife insists on us spending together. Physical touch we often do, though not for extended periods and acts of service we often do. She makes my food, I run her around in the car whenever she is going away or if I feel it will help her. We are actually thoughtful in that regard. Giving gifts we often do too, though neither of us is materialistic and so they tend to be little things like if I go away buying her a present or sometimes giving her flowers. We do all of the above and always have. The problem has been the third leg of the stool... .

And on that note, today is my birthday. The ex always holds great store by birthdays. I don't really. However, I have always wished her a happy birthday and she has always done the same to me. I found myself wondering if she would today, despite me telling her that I have had enough earlier in the week (for about the 350th time). So I got a happy birthday message to which I replied 'Thank you.' That is all the communication we have had today.

I am trying very hard to focus on my wife. We had a lovely weekend and took a picnic to the park and spent wonderful intimate times together. However, my feelings for my ex persist. Not as strongly and as I haven't seen her in 16 months now, the sense of betrayal I feel and the hurt she has caused me is subsiding. I have tried deleting her from FB and other avenues of communication in the past. I found this made me feel worse and my history in r/s is that I go into periods of mourning that can last up to 10 years - all through other r/s. This is the area of my personality I must address.

I don't think the problem lies within my r/s with my wife. In many ways it is really very good. I could reinstate sex tomorrow if I wanted to and I discussed it with my wife yesterday and she wants to but is scared. The only thing stopping me from reinstating the sex life in my marriage is my obsessive feelings for my ex. I have a history of this. Somehow I have painted this woman as my sexual Nirvana, my real soulmate - despite all the evidence to the contrary. She is unreliable and is not committed. She doesn't care about me enough to sustain a r/s. She will not leave her marriage. She is 62 and my wife is 47.

There is no logic to this situation whatsoever. This is where I need the help. I can absolutely guarantee something else. If I force the situation and split up with my wife due to lack of sex, I will in all probability spend the rest of my life regretting it. Wasn't it Marcus Aurelius who said, "know thyself?" Well I do - only too well. I am no longer going to allow myself to sabotage my own life.

[pearlsw]

I could reinstate sex tomorrow if I wanted to and I discussed it with my wife yesterday and she wants to but is scared. The only thing stopping me from reinstating the sex life in my marriage is my obsessive feelings for my ex. I have a history of this. Somehow I have painted this woman as my sexual Nirvana, my real soulmate - despite all the evidence to the contrary. She is unreliable and is not committed. She doesn't care about me enough to sustain a r/s. She will not leave her marriage. She is 62 and my wife is 47.

There is no logic to this situation whatsoever. This is where I need the help. I can absolutely guarantee something else.

okay. then here we go. go reinstate the sex with your wife. and keep having sex with her. and force the other thoughts away as best you can. and keep having sex with your wife. that is at least worth a try! try first before you declare this path a failure. you have nothing to lose.

happy birthday! 

~pearl

[pearlsw]

and p.s.

there is no shortage of great sexual experiences out there. you just have to go out and claim them. and trust me, no one person is nirvana. the nirvana lies in you. take it and share it with your wife.  

[Sunfl0wer]

I don't think the problem lies within my r/s with my wife. ... .

There is no logic to this situation whatsoever. This is where I need the help. I can absolutely guarantee something else. If I force the situation and split up with my wife due to lack of sex, I will in all probability spend the rest of my life regretting it. Wasn't it Marcus Aurelius who said, "know thyself?" Well I do - only too well. I am no longer going to allow myself to sabotage my own life.

So... .not going to go off an clip and quote Skip... .but he framed the situation with your ex as “fantasy.”

We are all engaged in a level of dissociation from “real” life/aka fantasy when we are avoiding the mundane or stress in real life and focusing on something incomplete or fragmented in some way.

Sounds like you find things with your wife mundane... .and want the excitement you experienced with ex.

Fyi... .
I believe that is absoutely understandable.
If I could create my perfect Frankenstein man... .he would be the Lover David was (but the body part to do it like Josh has, ) oh, David also best ever cook, the man of my family Like Tom was his physique my fav too, cerebral like Ethan was... etc.  (names changed to protect “innocent” )

I wonder which of those combo melds I shall put my effort into creating/finding/reclaiming or what not?

Idk

Would it be sabotaging myself to continue my focus in life down a fantasy path... .

I tend to favor buddhism when possible.
I tend to try to find contentment with where I am at, release attachments for minimizing suffering.
... .Sometimes

Other times I am quite literally self sabotaging... .
But imo, good to know when is which

... .

Idk... maybe my opinion is unpopular.
I don’t see this thread as someone at a crossroads to deciding how to rebuild with his wife.

I hear a person who is looking for relief to sooth grieve
That level in grieving process
You are still hanging on
Closure is yours to claim
Nothing happens till you move through that threshold man
Nothing different anyways

Same place
Same spot

Look into closure and grieving imo.
Or stay here... .
Limbo land

Grief sucks!
There is NO escape!
Just
Experience

[RomanticFool]

I don’t see this thread as someone at a crossroads to deciding how to rebuild with his wife.

I hear a person who is looking for relief to sooth grieve
That level in grieving process
You are still hanging on
Closure is yours to claim
Nothing happens till you move through that threshold man
Nothing different anyways

Same place
Same spot

Look into closure and grieving imo.
Or stay here... .
Limbo land

Grief sucks!
There is NO escape!
Just
Experience

I think you are correct. To be honest, all this time I don't think the r/s with my wife has been broken as such. I have been distant and disinterested in her because I was grieving the loss of my 'Fantasy' or what I call love. Just because it is unobtainable, it doesn't make the feelings any less real.

I don't know why we fall for some and not others - emotional equals etc.

Here is the twist in the tale. Despite all the cheating, the last thing that a good friend of mine said before I got married was 'Look after her.' Now this doesn't mean that I need to hang around in an unhappy marriage but it does mean that I owe it to my wife to do everything I can to live up to my vows. Sure I broke the one about fidelity, but the others about companionship and being friends, sits fine with my wife and I. The truth is I don't know what our sex life could be, because it has been so fleeting. I've never been in a situation like this with a woman for such a protracted length of time. In the past, once the passion had gone from a r/s I would either walk away or wait until the woman dumped me. This case is different. My wife and I enjoy each other's company. Had I not taken the 'love heroin' with my ex, we may have done something about the sex by now. Or not. I don't know. But I do feel I owe it to my wife and myself to try. I don't know if passion is a chemical or psychological thing, but I do know you can be head over heels and think your feelings will never die, the passion will never subside and yet it does. Perhaps if I was in my 30's or 40's still I would swap a great companionship for better sex, but I don't feel compelled to do that now. I would rather try to make passion with a woman I feel happy(ish) with.

I agree that I am grieving the loss of the r/s with my ex. It is getting better. I have mostly good days now and she is like a ghost. The thing that I thought was between us, and indeed may have been for her at one point, simply is no more. She gives nothing of herself and has little interest in me. The r/s is dead, contact or no contact. That is the simple truth.

[Wicker Man]

I have been distant and disinterested in her because I was grieving the loss of my 'Fantasy' or what I call love. Just because it is unobtainable, it doesn't make the feelings any less real.

You and I find ourselves in an emotionally challenging position.  We must quietly grieve the loss of an affair partners.  My wife knows of my transgression and yours does not, but the result is the same.  We do not have an open forum in which to grieve.  Grief is difficult, but when it is impossible to approach it directly it is even more difficult in my opinion.

I don't know why we fall for some and not others

I saw magic in the eyes of my affair partner and was swept away.  It was a combination of numerous aspects of her and where I found myself in my life's journey.

Despite all the cheating, the last thing that a good friend of mine said before I got married was 'Look after her.' Now this doesn't mean that I need to hang around in an unhappy marriage but it does mean that I owe it to my wife to do everything I can to live up to my vows.

I believe an affair is a symptom of a marriage in trouble.  In my case I did not realize I had had suppressed 25 years of unhappiness until it surfaced in the form of an affair.  Badly done on my part, but the result is my wife and I are currently working hard to better our relationship.  Please don't get me wrong... .I will not be writing a book 'Have an affair and fix your marriage' anytime soon... .  However, I find myself here today and have to work with the situation at hand.

Sure I broke the one (vow) about fidelity, but the others about companionship and being friends, sits fine with my wife and I.

We ran through all 7 of the deadly sins during my 1 year relationship.  I took care or arrogance, pride, lust and gluttony.  She did did swimmingly well with wrath, sloth and greed.

The truth is I don't know what our sex life could be, because it has been so fleeting. I've never been in a situation like this with a woman for such a protracted length of time.

Have a look at Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence  --Esther Perel.  Also get a copy of The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity --Esther Perel (perhaps don't show your wife the latter... .)

My wife and I enjoy each other's company.

Being married is a lot of hard work, but it sounds like you have a good foundation for growth. 

Had I not taken the 'love heroin' with my ex, we may have done something about the sex by now. Or not. I don't know. But I do feel I owe it to my wife and myself to try.

In having had an affair this will be, in my opinion, more difficult.  I will never experience intimacy with my wife like I did with my undiagnosed BPD lover -the are very different people and at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to physical intimacy.  Having experienced intimacy at such an impossibly high level will make coming back down to earth difficult -to be honest I wish I had not had the experience, it will make life harder for me.

There are broadly speaking 4 aspects to a strong marriage: Intimacy, parenting, financial partnership and companionship.  In my marriage we knock financial partnership out of the park -we have literally never argued about money.  We don't have children, which is hard on me -but we agreed.  Intimacy was utterly lacking.  Companionship we need work.  Work is the key word -we are going to put the work in and hopefully transcend my affair and make our relationship better.

I don't know if passion is a chemical or psychological thing, but I do know you can be head over heels and think your feelings will never die, the passion will never subside and yet it does.

It has to fade.  One cannot live in a constant state of limerence.  Nothing in life would every get done    After the initial attraction a real relationship has to be formed.  A lasting commitment to something greater than simply hot passion.  I do not believe my undiagnosed BPD lover was capable of making the transition from limerence to a lasting adult love.

Perhaps if I was in my 30's or 40's still I would swap a great companionship for better sex, but I don't feel compelled to do that now. I would rather try to make passion with a woman I feel happy(ish) with.

The work comes in making happy(ish) into happy.

Please do not misunderstand.  I miss my affair partner very much and detaching is a bear.  I hate the pain I caused my wife, my affair partner, and the emotional damage I did to myself.  Therapy is helping me unwind and reconcile the emotional mess I have created for myself. 


Wicker Man

[RomanticFool]

Wicker Man,

Apologies for the late reply, I have been up to my neck in work.

It has to fade.  One cannot live in a constant state of limerence.

I was thinking about this very thing today. Myself and the ex are still in contact but there is no real connection anymore. I have no idea what she is up to most of the time. She seems to have no desire for passion anymore. Given that we were both cheating on our spouses physically, I think this is a very good thing for my moral compass.

I stay in contact with her because every time I cut her off it starts a grief cycle and I cannot concentrate on what I need to do in life. I suppose even the odd message here and there is better than no contact at all. I am surprised to hear myself say that because I was 'all or nothing' not so long ago.

My summing up of our situation is that I think my ex did love me and probably still does - as much as her situation/personality/fear/mental health etc will allow her to love an affair partner. She knows that her mental health cannot sustain a r/s with a man like me who demands all of her. She also does not want to leave her husband or incur the wrath of her children. I can see now that that possibility was never on the table.

I no longer feel that deep and terrible sadness regarding my ex. As my own desperation to be with her has faded, my overriding feeling is that I want her to be free of the torment that I was causing her. My demands for closeness and a special bond, have never been met and will never be met. I don't actually think she is capable of it - not with me anyway. She told me once that she married her husband precisely because he was emotionally distant. I guess as her life progressed that made her frustrated and her emotional void and mental health and addiction issues made her look outside of her marriage for what was missing. I was one of a few people who offered her respite. Where I differed from others was in my intensity and love for her.

I want it to be known on here, that I consider what transpired between us to be love. For me it still is love and always will be. She awoke a wonderful feeling of desire and completeness in me that I have rarely experienced. Leaving aside the morals of the situation for a moment and also the question of whether it was healthy on my part (actually it was never healthy, it was always obsessive), I now feel some sense of gratitude that I was able to share those wonderful times with somebody I adored, however fleeting. I also know that my desperation was born out of the fact that I always knew I could never have her. For her, this r/s has been about escape and diversion. For me it was always about the hope of being with my dream woman - on the surface. In reality she could never be my dream woman for all the reasons I have shared on here over the last 16 months.

My r/s with my wife is very solid now. I am no longer encumbered by constant yearning for the ex. I am able to be present for my wife in many ways. We probably should never have got married as in many ways we are not compatible, but I do enjoy her company and she accepts me for the deeply flawed human being I am. My desire to look outside of my r/s for answers is non existent and I can see myself living out the rest of my life in relative harmony with my wife. Unless I wake up one day and decide to put a bomb under it in the hope of meeting another 'limerance' woman. I think in all honesty I no longer want a r/s based on emotional intensity and sexual gratification. I want something real and lasting ie a complete human being who sees me for who I am and wants me in her life, warts and all.