Another Walk Of Shame

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Here I am again. I feel like the main actor in a long running soap opera. I have been through every strategy, every emotional conflict and every style of break up possible. Every time I come back to the same point: feeling betrayed and let down - albeit with ever decreasing emotion.

It has now been over 15 months since I have seen my exuBPDmarried lover. In February my wife and I went through a very brief separation while I tried to deal with the conflict and inner turmoil brought on by this relationship and the aftermath.

My wife and I reconciled, I kept my distance from my ex and there was a few months of NC. Then I got a job in the states and the pattern that usually emerges during a period of NC is that I want to tell my ex my news and share things with her, if only online. So I contacted her just before I went away and in my mind I wanted it to be friendship this time.

I was doing extremely well. The contact was totally without intimacy or rancour on my part. I told myself that the best way to deal with this situation is to have a friendship with the ex and concentrate on dealing with my marriage. While I was away I felt grounded and calm. The contact with the ex was putting my mind at rest as there was no drama on either side. The r/s consisted of me telling her what I am up to and her telling me very little - this has been the time honoured tradition and pattern of the r/s. For the first time in years I was unconcerned with what she was up and focusing on my life with my wife and my work - but with contact.

Then there was no contact from her over the weekend. I thought little of it as I spent the weekend with my wife and we had a lovely time.

Then today my head started to wonder why the ex hadn't contacted me for four days and I asked her what she's been up to. It turns out she went away with the charity that she works for on a 'jolly' as she put it. In the past these excursions usually provided opportunities to meet up and I felt the fact she never told me about it suspicious. It triggered an emotional response (muted compared to previous episodes) but nonetheless damaging and no doubt the end of any contact for a good while.

Now I am less emotionally conflicted than a year ago but there remains feelings for my ex. I think the fact that we haven't met up in 15 months makes it easier to recover from my jealous outbursts but it is a reminder to myself that I still harbour strong feelings for her.

In my mind there has been progress, if only in my head. The most important progress for me is that I am no longer feeling the desperation I felt a year ago. I have made more of an effort with my wife and I no longer feel that the r/s with my ex has the power to derail me. I still have the same conundrum as a year ago, but it now centres exclusively around my marriage rather than any serious thoughts of having a r/s with my ex.

The strategy of keeping the drama out of the r/s with my ex while maintaining contact has worked. There will now be a period of NC and I will see how it affects me in the coming weeks and months. I feel like an alcoholic who was tempted by a drink but ultimately did not drink. There is an emotional hangover though and another metaphorical walk of shame - if only in my mind.

RF

[RomanticFool]

Here I am again. I feel like the main actor in a long running soap opera. I have been through every strategy, every emotional conflict and every style of break up possible. Every time I come back to the same point: feeling betrayed and let down - albeit with ever decreasing emotion.

It has now been over 15 months since I have seen my exuBPDmarried lover. In February my wife and I went through a very brief separation while I tried to deal with the conflict and inner turmoil brought on by this relationship and the aftermath.

My wife and I reconciled, I kept my distance from my ex and there was a few months of NC. Then I got a job in the states and the pattern that usually emerges during a period of NC is that I want to tell my ex my news and share things with her, if only online. So I contacted her just before I went away and in my mind I wanted it to be friendship this time.

I was doing extremely well. The contact was totally without intimacy or rancour on my part. I told myself that the best way to deal with this situation is to have a friendship with the ex and concentrate on dealing with my marriage. While I was away I felt grounded and calm. The contact with the ex was putting my mind at rest as there was no drama on either side. The r/s consisted of me telling her what I am up to and her telling me very little - this has been the time honoured tradition and pattern of the r/s. For the first time in years I was unconcerned with what she was up and focusing on my life with my wife and my work - but with contact.

Then there was no contact from her over the weekend. I thought little of it as I spent the weekend with my wife and we had a lovely time.

Then today my head started to wonder why the ex hadn't contacted me for four days and I asked her what she's been up to. It turns out she went away with the charity that she works for on a 'jolly' as she put it. In the past these excursions usually provided opportunities to meet up and I felt the fact she never told me about it suspicious. It triggered an emotional response (muted compared to previous episodes) but nonetheless damaging and no doubt the end of any contact for a good while.

Now I am less emotionally conflicted than a year ago but there remains feelings for my ex. I think the fact that we haven't met up in 15 months makes it easier to recover from my jealous outbursts but it is a reminder to myself that I still harbour strong feelings for her.

In my mind there has been progress, if only in my head. The most important progress for me is that I am no longer feeling the desperation I felt a year ago. I have made more of an effort with my wife and I no longer feel that the r/s with my ex has the power to derail me. I still have the same conundrum as a year ago, but it now centres exclusively around my marriage rather than any serious thoughts of having a r/s with my ex.

The strategy of keeping the drama out of the r/s with my ex while maintaining contact has worked. There will now be a period of NC and I will see how it affects me in the coming weeks and months. I feel like an alcoholic who was tempted by a drink but ultimately did not drink. There is an emotional hangover though and another metaphorical walk of shame - if only in my mind.

RF

[Sunfl0wer]

Summary:
You are reengaging with your ex affair partner and consistently finding this relationship unsatisfying.

What am I missing?

What would RA be in this scenario? (if I’m hearing it correctly)

[RomanticFool]

You are reengaging with your ex affair partner and consistently finding this relationship unsatisfying.

What am I missing?

There is no logic to one's emotional life. That much I have learnt over the years. If logic were a part of this, I would have walked away from it a long time ago. It is all about emotional entanglement. However, the further away I get from an actual meeting, the less clouded by emotions I am and the more I can make a rational judgement.

[Sunfl0wer]

What have you learned about wisemind?
The tools here are pretty useful and to get the most of of this site it may be wise to delve into them.

I been reading round here for several years now. 
I am still learning stuff.

Kinda am wondering where you left off in the tools and the lessons roun here or are we enabling a cycle of validation => enable repeat... .idk.

Am curious.

I’ll step away though for now and allow others to chime in to guide you.
Not sure if you are interested in tools like RA or wisemind or are using the boards to regulate uncomfortable feelings.

Wondering what you see is next to help your disappointment.
Got tools?

[RomanticFool]

Sunfl0wer,

I have read and read and read about BPD. I have read the wise mind versus emotional mind versus logical mind paradigm many many times. I have practised using the tools for weeks, sometimes months on end and then something will happen, such as her withholding information as to her movements and my emotions kick in.

In all honesty, I am tired of trying to understand her or BPD. I am tired of hoping she will one day care. I am tired of thinking about my marriage and my lack of intimacy with my wife. It is all one big disappointing dead end.

My solution is to throw myself into my work and to play piano. I find the less I focus on my ex, the better I feel. I even wrote a play about our r/s using all of the tools that I learnt and some new understanding of BPD. That piece of writing was specifically for my healing, I will never allow anybody to read it.

I tried validation skills for a while. All of my endeavours and countless hours ruminating on how I could have done things differently have led me to now want to distance myself from her again as she just does not want a r/s or care about my feelings regarding her. It is a dead end. A waste of my time and energy. I am far better using the skills I have learnt here helping other people and forgetting about my own r/s woes. They are unresolvable. The only answer to the situation with the ex is to walk away. I knew that 15 months ago. I have just been playing out a long goodbye with her.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear RF-

Hi there old friend... .I understand the hurt.  And it is with this understanding that I have a suggestion, which you may not like.  If you don't ask the questions, you cannot be hurt by her answers. 

In my heart of hearts, I believe you know that you cannot be friends with your ex-lover.  Not now at least.  Who knows... .Maybe years from now?  But your pain around this relationship is still too raw... .no matter that you have not "physically" engaged in 15 months.  You have still been engaging.  This one will take way more than physical distance to dissolve, and you're in charge of that, if you so choose.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Wicker Man]

My wife and I reconciled, I kept my distance from my ex and there was a few months of NC.

My year long tryst with BPD was just that --an affair.  If I learned anything from this experience it is that my affair was a childish outburst.  Apparently, I was extremely unhappy in my marriage and it needed a lot of work --I had been unaware of this before being swept away in an affair.  With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight I can now see that clearly. 

You currently have that knowledge.  You had an affair -like most affairs very likely with the wrong person for the wrong reasons.  The likelihood of an affair evolving into a healthy relationship is <20%.  Affairs do not survive the light of day.

It is a catch 22.  Would a person you want to spend the rest of your life with get involved with a married man?  Likely no.

Since I have walked a mile in your shoes I would strongly suggest thinking long and hard about why you reconciled with your wife and what that cost both of you.  I am currently in the process of reconciliation and it is brutal -I wouldn't wish it on an enemy.  Why would you want to sign up for it again?

When my wife and I began to reconcile we both entered individual therapy as well as couple's therapy.  No contact with my undiagnosed BPD lover was part of the contract.  It is for the mutual benefit of all 3 of us.

Unless you and your wife have a polyamorous agreement -then respectfully disregard everything I have said... .  Otherwise you really should consider the consequences of your actions if not for yourself then for these two women you claim to care for.

Perhaps my voice seems a little bit hard, but I would give anything to undo what I have experienced this last year.  I would give anything to turn back the clock and have a chance of rebuilding my marriage without the incredible pain my affair caused. 

If your marriage is untenable then end it... .  But to begin a 'friendship' with and ex-lover, someone you believe suffers from BPD is a poor choice.  It will ultimately do you, your wife and this other woman quite a bit of harm.

Therapy has helped me quite a bit in reconciling my affair, reconciling my marriage and trying to understand everything I have experienced this last year.  Perhaps consider seeing a therapist.


Wicker Man

[RomanticFool]

Hi Gems, Yes, I do know in my heart of hearts that I cannot be friends, though it was alright for a few weeks there.

Wicker Man, what you are talking about is morality. In my current situation I am tired of doing the moral thing. Since I can't have my ex, what I really want to do is go out and have sex with a number of different women. Of course I am not going to do that because the price I would have to pay is too high.

I am happy with my wife in many ways, just not sex. I am an aging man suffering from erectile dysfunction. I am no longer involved in a physical relationship with another woman. I no longer feel guilty. I am not angry at my wife and I don't really want to end my marriage because it would be too painful and too expensive for both of us.

I met my ex long before I met my wife. I didn't know anything about BPD and when she came back into my life, I would have been prepared to end my marriage at the time. Thank God that never happened. I care about my wife. I don't know what the future holds. It may well be that we both decide a lack of sex is a strong enough reason to end an 11 year relationship. I suspect there are many many married people in my position and while your moral guidance is the right thing to do, at this stage in my life I would probably hump the washing machine given half the chance. Sorry to be crude. There are many things I should do, probably ending my marriage would be the best thing, but at the moment I don't have the wherewithal and as the years go by I am less concerned with morality. Sorry if that makes me a bad person.

[Jeffree]

RomanticFool,

I suspect you have come here to vent and for understanding and support.

While most would find it hard to muster empathy for someone who is "feeling betrayed and let down" by an "exuBPDmarried lover," I, too, find it a tough ask. HOWEVER, I do empathize with the internal struggle of wanting to do the right thing, wanting something I cannot have, and feeling unable to and uninterested in doing the right thing should the wrong thing become an option.

We can only do what we can do. We can read, and ponder, and work on ourselves, and go to therapy, but in the end we are human with limitations in our abilities to always do our best, and we have to live with what our life looks like as we muddle through the good and the bad.

I do have a few curiosities about your scenario.

1) If your  exuBPDmarried lover were to ask to be with you would you leave your wife?

2) Does your wife know about the  exuBPDmarried lover and your preoccupation with her? 

J

[Wicker Man]

Wicker Man, what you are talking about is morality.

I think 'morality' is too simple of a word.  As I said I had an affair -I do not stand on moral high ground.  I do however know the pain and devastation my actions created and do not want to ever be in this situation again.  The idea of re-earning my wife's trust to then break it is unimaginable.

I filed for divorce and had planned to marry my affair partner.  My wife and I are one signature away from finishing the filing -if our reconciliation fails.

I am happy with my wife in many ways, just not sex.

My wife suffers from diagnosed OC(PD) and our 25 years together has been largely sexless -so I feel I understand.  I had always had a mistress, resplendent, creative, and alluring --my work.  I met my affair partner on a movie set, so in a way she was the physical embodiment of work -the place I had been hiding from a damaged marriage all these years.

Just to make my sex life clear... .Years ago my wife told me 'You are putting too much pressure on me for sex -let me bring it up next time.' Great idea right?  --So... .I said 'Well?'  She told me 'You told me I could bring it up next!' --I said 'Yes... .that was 14 months ago'.  --So believe me I understand how hard a sexless marriage can me.  Feeling unwanted, unattractive.  It hurts.

In my case 25 years of repression came roaring through my psyche claws bared in the form of an affair. -I am currently in therapy working this through.

I don't really want to end my marriage because it would be too painful and too expensive for both of us.

We are looking at reconciling because of an email my wife sent me -asking if we should try, since we share such a long history.  We are fortunate enough to have enough money where we could both live with a level of comfort if we split, but OMFG yes... .divorce is expensive.  Houses, cars, blah blah blah... .

... .while your moral guidance is the right thing to do, at this stage in my life I would probably hump the washing machine given half the chance.

Please understand my 'outrage' was not morally based, since I have no moral high ground on which to stand.  It is more a matter of trying to point out the potential for disaster which I projected from my situation onto yours. 

My affair partner wants me back desperately and I know if I were to have any contact with her it would cause everyone involved anguish.  My affair partner broke up with me at the end of a 7 day rage (god damn was I lucky) 1 week before the final stroke of the pen on my divorce papers.  It was serendipitous the email from my wife arrived soon after.  The planets aligned somehow.

Sorry if that makes me a bad person.

If I thought you were a bad person I would not have written anything at all.  I don't waste my time on bad people -life is too short.  Please take care and take what I have said with a grain of salt.  Personally, I will do anything to avoid another mess like I created.

My marriage needed a lot of work -and my affair has begun this process.  Perhaps a silver lining in an otherwise very dark time.


Wicker Man

[Skip]

Remember this guy?  



First, if you have a mp3 of your piano playing, email it in and we'll share it.

Back to the stool... .

Your relationship (marriage) has a deficiency and your affair partner filled it (your wife provides 2 legs, affair partner is one leg). Likewise, your affair partner has a deficiency in her marriage and you filled it.

All of my endeavours and countless hours ruminating on how I could have done things differently have led me to now want to distance myself from her again as she just does not want a r/s or care about my feelings regarding her. It is a dead end. A waste of my time and energy.

RM, maybe it's time to put the affair in it's rightful place in your heart.

Your encounters were periodic romance novel scenes that were very fulfilling, uncomplicated, and felt like love. This is what you grieve. It was never a full, robust, giving-based love. It was a fantasy escape and a selfish, self-serving love. You had selfish needs and were manipulative and a bully about pushing for them. She had selfish needs and wanted you there only when she felt a need - otherwise she wanted her space. You both went home to families every night for a decade and deceived them. And eventually selfishness consumed the relationship.

Had you two dropped your spouses and gotten together, it would not have been a life of romance novel scenes. You were not going to be the the "McCord's from Madam Secretary (TV)". In many ways, you two didn't start to see who the other person really was until recently, and that couple was not special. You consistently describe her as the "love of your life" and "profound liar, cheat, selfish, mentally ill".

A positive spin on all of this is you had your fantasy escapes, neither of your spouses were acutely injured (amazing). And it has taught you some hard lessons about yourself. Now that you are wiser and more mature you can put that experience to good use, and go on with your life. You still have a lot of life to live.

You don't have to torture yourself with the image of a great love and betrayal.

My marriage needed a lot of work -and my affair has begun this process.  Perhaps a silver lining in an otherwise very dark time.

Exactly.

[Sunfl0wer]

In all honesty, I am tired of trying to understand her or BPD. I am tired of hoping she will one day care.

I’m sensing communication challenges between us both here.

(I’m happy to play them out in a friendly manner with you here for both our understanding in life )

Who do you think I was suggesting the tools would be helpful for?
(I will clarify... .I just maybe was too wordy initially... .apologies)

(Use me! Lmao! It is an invitation!)

[RomanticFool]

Jeffree,

I suspect you have come here to vent and for understanding and support.

Not really, I think I come here because there is nowhere else I can talk about it. I have had many people express their disapproval of my situation on here, though I have also had a great deal of support too.

I do empathize with the internal struggle of wanting to do the right thing, wanting something I cannot have, and feeling unable to and uninterested in doing the right thing should the wrong thing become an option.

You have pretty much nailed it, though I am no longer inclined to fantasise about spending my life with the ex. It has become more about letting go slowly (with the occasional hope of one last tryst).

If your  exuBPDmarried lover were to ask to be with you would you leave your wife?

That ship has sailed. I see the ex for who she really is these days, rather than who I would like her to be. That is a major shift in this scenario.

Does your wife know about the  exuBPDmarried lover and your preoccupation with her?

No she doesn't, otherwise I'd be divorced now. Many people on here have expressed disdain towards that position but I came on here initially looking for a way to end my pain and address my marriage. I am still doing those two things and interestingly a year later I feel both of those things are happening, albeit very very slowly.

[RomanticFool]

Wicker Man,

I think 'morality' is too simple of a word.  As I said I had an affair -I do not stand on moral high ground.  I do however know the pain and devastation my actions created and do not want to ever be in this situation again.  The idea of re-earning my wife's trust to then break it is unimaginable.

I filed for divorce and had planned to marry my affair partner.  My wife and I are one signature away from finishing the filing -if our reconciliation fails.

Sounds like you've been through the wringer. I am soo glad that never happened in my case. However, six years ago and a half years ago, six months after my marriage, I would have done exactly the same thing such was the explosion in my heart for my ex. I would not be the first person to walk out on their marriage after such a short period of time, but I would have carried a terrible guilt around.

For me it is a moral issue and I would have felt myself to be morally reprehensible had I ended my marriage after such a short time. People do it all the time and they feel guilty all the time and rightfully so. The way human beings behave towards each other at times is terrible but faced with the prospect of spending a life time unhappy it seems the better of the two options for many people. That's not to say I judge anybody else, I just look at it from an objective sense. In an ideal world we would all meet our perfect partners and live happily ever after, however, life is rarely like that. That is why when people bring morality into this situation I always feel that it gets in the way, not because it isn't true, but because we all know having an affair is hurtful to another person. My journey on here is to discover whether my thought processes and actions are insane, or whether I really did fall in love. My conclusion is that the state of being 'in love' is actually a state of temporary insanity based on sexual attraction. Real love is probably something closer to what I feel for my wife. I actually dislike my ex as a person in many ways and by extension probably dislike myself also. I think the fact that my ex didn't want to be with me has probably saved me from doing the same thing as you. Good luck to you.

My wife suffers from diagnosed OC(PD) and our 25 years together has been largely sexless -so I feel I understand.  I had always had a mistress, resplendent, creative, and alluring --my work.  I met my affair partner on a movie set, so in a way she was the physical embodiment of work -the place I had been hiding from a damaged marriage all these years.

You are a mirror image of myself. Many people might say that is actually a perfect situation - aside from the morality of course. I hide from my marriage at work too. I also think that the moral compass for some people in the entertainment industry is somewhat different to other industries, though in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein scandal that is changing.

ust to make my sex life clear... .Years ago my wife told me 'You are putting too much pressure on me for sex -let me bring it up next time.' Great idea right?  --So... .I said 'Well?'  She told me 'You told me I could bring it up next!' --I said 'Yes... .that was 14 months ago'.  --So believe me I understand how hard a sexless marriage can me.  Feeling unwanted, unattractive.  It hurts.

In my case 25 years of repression came roaring through my psyche claws bared in the form of an affair. -I am currently in therapy working this through.

The exact opposite happened with my wife and I. I was struggling with erectile dysfunction and told her not to pressure me. Not that she was really, I wonder if it was all an excuse because I never really fancied her the way I should have. Then she got pregnant and we were both delighted but she had a miscarriage which devastated her. Two tings happened then 1. I wanted to stay with her to be supportive. 2. In order to avoid pain (and possibly rejection) she opted out of sex... and here we are.

Please understand my 'outrage' was not morally based, since I have no moral high ground on which to stand.  It is more a matter of trying to point out the potential for disaster which I projected from my situation onto yours.  

I get it. I went through a spate of getting upset with people on here when I felt judged. That was because I was so emotionally engrossed in the situation and some people who have been badly hurt are understandably disapproving of affairs. I have a much thicker skin now and my posts these days are generally expressed without emotional impairment. It has been a huge discovery to learn that some BPD traits apply to myself. The r/s with my ex has been a valuable learning experience about my own character. Imam also more distanced from the raw pain of my affair and I no longer get upset if people challenge my morality because I share the same sense of fair play. Except I have been embroiled in a situation which led me to suspend my own moral principles. That is part and parcel of having an affair.

My affair partner wants me back desperately and I know if I were to have any contact with her it would cause everyone involved anguish.  My affair partner broke up with me at the end of a 7 day rage (god damn was I lucky) 1 week before the final stroke of the pen on my divorce papers.  It was serendipitous the email from my wife arrived soon after.  The planets aligned somehow.

That is a very very difficult situation. They both wanted you back at the same time? That is a weird kind of synchronicity. My ex doesn't do rage, she is more the 'waif' type who withdraws and does ST. You know the weird thing is, the longer I go down this road, the more I can understand where my ex is coming from, even though I disagree with almost every point she makes about the situation. She always takes the position that if I challenge her on anything then I am unreasonable. I always take the point of view that if she tells me to stay away if I am going to be angry that means she doesn't care. I think the truth is that she doesn't want the emotional instability I bring because as well as having mental health issues any kind of challenge kicks in to her self worth. I guess it is easier to tell me to stay away than accept any responsibility. I have to also accept that if I challenge her on anything she interprets that as aggression. The reality is that we are ill suited and she doesn't really care enough to make the effort. We should stay away from each other.

If I thought you were a bad person I would not have written anything at all.  I don't waste my time on bad people -life is too short.  Please take care and take what I have said with a grain of salt.  Personally, I will do anything to avoid another mess like I created.

I think the truth is that I think I'm a bad person - or at east have behaved badly in this situation. Both towards my ex and my wife. I don't really carry guilt around with me about the situation, but that is probably mainly because my wife hasn't discovered the affair and so isn't castigating me and assassinating my character. I think the way things are playing out, the only real damage done will have been to my emotional life and intimacy with my wife - though to be honest that hasn't been there from the start. I don't blame you for wanting to avoid a mess.  

One thought occurs to me regularly throughout this situation and that is that neither woman may be the right one for me? have you considered that yourself? Mind you, at 55, I'm in a situation now where no woman may ever be right for me again!

My marriage needed a lot of work -and my affair has begun this process.  Perhaps a silver lining in an otherwise very dark time.

Good way of looking at it.

[Jeffree]

Many people on here have expressed disdain towards that position

As I would expect them to because that's the standard line of judgement in a case such as yours. Far be it for me to say as much either, but holy moley does it seem as though you were playing with fire by having an affair with a married pwBPD. At any point she could have gone off the rails and ratted you out.

Any chance your wife already knows or suspects the affair? Any chance she, too, has had an extramarital dalliance?

Regardless, I imagine it would be quite intoxicating receiving passion from almost anyone in the midst of a sexless marriage, let alone the typical unbridled fire a pwBPD can deliver.

In the aftermath of my marriage with my pwBPD I find myself having to appreciate the fact that for about two years my life was as good as anyone's life should ever be and the odds are that I won't ever have it that good again. Yet I do hold out hope that my life isn't going to be this cruddy forever either.

I think most of the time the best we can do is see our life for what it is and see the potential for growth in it.

J

[Wicker Man]

I would have done exactly the same thing such was the explosion in my heart for my ex. I would not be the first person to walk out on their marriage after such a short period of time, but I would have carried a terrible guilt around.

Coming to the misguided conclusion the affair was right for me I informed my wife I was leaving.  I am not a sociopath, but I didn't feel guilty about the decision.  I felt terribly for her pain, but felt I had to do what was right for myself.  It turns out this was not the case, but 20/20 hindsight makes clarity quite easy... .

For me it is a moral issue and I would have felt myself to be morally reprehensible had I ended my marriage after such a short time.

We had been together for 26 years and most of it was fair at the best of times.  I was acting selfishly to be sure.

That's not to say I judge anybody else, I just look at it from an objective sense.

I have always felt Ayn Rand's 'Judge and prepare to be judged' is a more honest way of looking at life.  We all judge -it is part of our wiring and survival instinct.

In an ideal world we would all meet our perfect partners and live happily ever after, however, life is rarely like that.

It was in this belief that I got hung up.  Being in entertainment I have used the idea of 'fairytale love' to sell any number of products and ideas --I got hoist on my own petard.  The irony is not lost on me.

My journey on here is to discover whether my thought processes and actions are insane, or whether I really did fall in love. My conclusion is that the state of being 'in love' is actually a state of temporary insanity based on sexual attraction.

This has a name.  It is call limerence -the cocaine like rush of falling in love -genetically important and is the foundation for the beginning of all romanic relationships.  Oddly... .for me the attraction was not predominantly sexual.  Having been in a cool relationship for half my life the super natural connection offered in the beginning of a BPD relationship was intoxicating.  We swept each other off our feet.  I knew she had had a difficult past, but I adored her and thought to accept the good with the bad.  She had been misdiagnosed schizophrenic, but often with brilliance comes a touch of madness.  --I was unaware of BPD until after we parted.

Real love is probably something closer to what I feel for my wife.

This is what has me trying at home.  Healthy love versus a love based on a very unhealthy foundation.

I actually dislike my ex as a person in many ways and by extension probably dislike myself also. I think the fact that my ex didn't want to be with me has probably saved me from doing the same thing as you. Good luck to you.

To this day I adore the lovely part of my ex, but she is an emotional leaf being blown in a storm.  When she broke up with me she likely saved my life.  In fact one evening I talked her out of a non-responsive bought of dysphoria -her first words were 'You must leave me -I will destroy you'.  That was likely the deepest expression of love she has ever uttered. 

I also think that the moral compass for some people in the entertainment industry is somewhat different to other industries, though in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein scandal that is changing.

Unfortunately I feel it is human nature, not merely my industry.  Politics, high finance, military.  As a point of fact my ex got her first tattoo to avoid being accepted to her countries national dance troop.  The dancers are treated with brutality.

I get it. I went through a spate of getting upset with people on here when I felt judged.

I have been upfront here on BPD Family about my experience with BPD having been an affair whenever it has been appropriate to the conversation.  I feel honesty is part of my healing process.  I can take a punch. 

What I did was wrong, but I was doing the best I could at the time --my best at that time simply wasn't very good.  The fact that I was working 110 hours a week during my affair may have clouded my judgment... .There are, of course, mitigating circumstances, but at the end of the day... .yep bad decision.

That was because I was so emotionally engrossed in the situation and some people who have been badly hurt are understandably disapproving of affairs.

Cheating seems to be part and parcel with BPD -many of the members here likely were cheated on by their significant others.  My ex very likely cheated on us.  If fact when I spoke to her about it I said 'us' -she hurt herself as much as it hurt me.  I was trying to instill the idea of 'we' -it was an alien concept for her.

I no longer get upset if people challenge my morality because I share the same sense of fair play. Except I have been embroiled in a situation which led me to suspend my own moral principles. That is part and parcel of having an affair.

Once again it was not moral outrage in my first post -it was an attempt to help a fellow human avoid an extremely perilous and painful situation.   

I think the truth is that she doesn't want the emotional instability I bring because as well as having mental health issues any kind of challenge kicks in to her self worth.

My ex desperately needs to be loved.  However she is unable to control her emotional state.  She is hardest on the people who care for her the most.  She once tore all the flooring out of her grandparents home with her bare hands -she weighs 90 pounds.  She was a rage ninja... . 

When I met her family they took me in immediately, although I was significantly older than she and foreign, they just wanted her with someone safe.  BPD is truly a tragic disorder.

I think the truth is that I think I'm a bad person - or at east have behaved badly in this situation.

These are two very different things.  You are introspective and caring -not the hallmark of a bad person.  Could you and I done things better?  likely... .yes.  I do not see myself as a bad person -I am a person in need of therapy with a marriage which has a lot of potential -up until now nearly all of that potential has been unrealized.  This is an opportunity for growth and we are hoping for a fruitful future.

... .mainly because my wife hasn't discovered the affair and so isn't castigating me and assassinating my character. I think the way things are playing out, the only real damage done will have been to my emotional life and intimacy with my wife - though to be honest that hasn't been there from the start. I don't blame you for wanting to avoid a mess.

 

I have given a full disclosure of my affair to my wife.  I assumed from your previous post you were in the same boat.  Let me tell you... .It is absolutely brutal going through disclosure.  My wife had not discovered my affair --I told her about it.

One thought occurs to me regularly throughout this situation and that is that neither woman may be the right one for me?

Excellent point.  As you may have observed I went from OC(PD) to B(PD) then back to OC(PD).  I use this nomenclature to point out the personality disorder in both individuals.  Both my wife and I share the concern fear is driving us back  together.  My hope is now that we are in therapy for her PD and my codependent trait we can learn to be happy together.  She is hurt, mad as hell, and yet is still willing to try to sort this out with me.

Mind you, at 55, I'm in a situation now where no woman may ever be right for me again!

I am 52.  I have to admit the idea of dating is horrifying after having experienced BPD love.  I feel I experienced love on the level of psychosis, an impossible high -love to the point of dysfunction.  Like a Schedule 1 drug -addictive and deadly. 

This particular fear is not driving me back into my marriage, but if our reconciliation fails I will wait a long damn time before 'dating'.  My ex's name translates to ':)ream Come True' and when we met it seemed to fit. 

Having known her feels like a loss of innocence.  She is an amazing human being, but mortally flawed.  We have not had any contact for 6 months, yet I am still haunted by the experience.

I hope you are able to find so solace.  If you are not seeing a therapist it might not be a bad idea.  I know it has helped me in both my healing process and reconciling the loss of my affair partner as well as reconciling my marriage.

Wicker Man

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

First, if you have a mp3 of your piano playing, email it in and we'll share it.

I wasn't expecting that! Are you sure? I've only been playing for a couple of years.

Back to the stool... .

Your relationship (marriage) has a deficiency and your affair partner filled it (your wife provides 2 legs, affair partner is one leg). Likewise, your affair partner has a deficiency in her marriage and you filled it.

I think of the stool often. I was convinced my ex was The One. Now I just think she is a half-hearted dabbler. That is all she can really manage emotionally. I am the all guns blazing, fire in the belly, love warrior. She had passion for a few months some time ago, but I actually think my own self righteous indignation at her killed her feelings. She has been wary of me. On the other hand she is an unreliable, secretive withdrawer who doesn't really understand or care about how I feel. My current thinking is that I am entitled to feel aggrieved at her, just as she is entitled to withdraw from my challenges. It is all such a waste of my emotion and both of our energies. She is never going to see anything form my point of view. Sometimes if I dress it up in cotton wool and lots of validation she will apologise for a very minor transgression but the fundamental issues will always be my fault due to my volatile nature (which is mainly volatile in words, almost never face to face). I think her husband is the true love of her life, but he doesn't give her what she thinks she needs. She does also acknowledge that she probably wanted him in the first place precisely because he is emotionally absent.

Your encounters were periodic romance novel scenes that were very fulfilling, uncomplicated, and felt like love. This is what you grieve. It was never a full, robust, giving-based love. It was a fantasy escape and a selfish, self-serving love. You had selfish needs and were manipulative and a bully about pushing for them. She had selfish needs and wanted you there only when she felt a need - otherwise she wanted her space. You both went home to families every night for a decade and deceived them. And eventually selfishness consumed the relationship.

Most relationships begin this way - that's why it's called courting. If you feel sexually attracted to somebody, admire them and want to be with them, that is usually the basis for a long term relationship often leading to marriage. I think very few people love selflessly. I also believe that what many women (not all) look for in a man is an attractive father to their potential children and a man who is solvent and able to provide security. I sometimes feel it is men who are the romantics and women who are the pragmatists. This is central to your idea of a romantic novel type of love. I think it was me who was thinking that. She just wanted respite from her boring domestic situation. She became sexually engaged for a while but she has never had my wellbeing anywhere in her mind. Most of her meetings were on her terms with her own self-preservation in mind. However, because her husband was more vigilant about keeping tabs on her than my wife, she is the one who got discovered. I think at some point in the r/s I was hoping I'd get discovered so I could be with her. Shows how deluded I was, because she had no intention of ever being with me under any circumstances. That has ben the source of much of my anger, I was willing to take the plunge, she never was, but she spoke the language of somebody who might. Hence my confusion when it all blew up.

Had you two dropped your spouses and gotten together, it would not have been a life of romance novel scenes. You were not going to be the the "McCord's from Madam Secretary (TV)". In many ways, you two didn't start to see who the other person really was until recently, and that couple was not special. You consistently describe her as the "love of your life" and "profound liar, cheat, selfish, mentally ill".

I think she was the love of my life at the height of this situation. The problem was she has never been free. I did and still do love her and no alternate definition of love will ever change that. Love is felt in the heart and soul and I felt it for her in spades. However, her lack of interest is slowly killing the feelings. I believe she felt the same as me at one point, but her own responsibilities, attachment, children and mental health make it impossible for her to sustain those feelings. It is too painful for her and she is too selfish. I could and would have tried to make it last had she ever been free.

I also think she has lied and cheated and is selfish and mentally ill. Very few people are consistently selfless - in love or not. I also think as a r/s it was a non starter because my agenda has never been her agenda.

A positive spin on all of this is you had your fantasy escapes, neither of your spouses were acutely injured (amazing). And it has taught you some hard lessons about yourself. Now that you are wiser and more mature you can put that experience to good use, and go on with your life. You still have a lot of life to live.

I don't think it's that amazing my wife never discovered the affair. She doesn't pay close attention to anything I do. I am glad she didn't discover it but if we were more intimate she may have seen the signs. On the other hand, I am glad she hasn't been hurt by betrayal. The major thing I have learnt is not to get embroiled in another situation like this one. I doubt I'll have another affair. I think there will come a time when I will have to address my sex life with my wife and tell her I want one. That will require all of my strength because it could be the end (or the beginning) of our marriage.

You don't have to torture yourself with the image of a great love and betrayal.

To me it has been a great love. Just because she didn't feel the same or wasn't committed, does not lessen the impact it has had on me, which is profound. I also feel that in some ways she is a remarkable woman, but the main thing I have realised is that I don't really know her. She is a deeply troubled and damaged woman who is slowly getting better. However, today, having repeated all the old criticisms of each other's characters and her telling me that I f*@k with her head, for the first time since it started I actually thought that I am no good for her. I have never thought that before because the idea of not being with her was too unbearable. However, I can see that I am no good for her at all. However, something draws her back to me time and again, as we saw last year and all the drama that entailed. Last year on my birthday she contacted me, given that it is my birthday on Sunday she may well do so again, but if she doesn't, it will be a sign that she is growing too.

[RomanticFool]

Gems,

I’m sensing communication challenges between us both here.

(I’m happy to play them out in a friendly manner with you here for both our understanding in life smiley)

Who do you think I was suggesting the tools would be helpful for?
(I will clarify... .I just maybe was too wordy initially... .apologies)

(Use me! Lmao! It is an invitation!)

Use you how? Whatever it is, it's the best invitation I've had for a while :-)

I suspect you meant the tools were to stop making the same mistakes time and again with the ex. Therefore it could be said they were for my wellbeing and to help validate her experience. The area I am tired with is thinking about how she is feeling. It's all guess work anyway and the further I get away from her, the less importance I attach to it.

[RomanticFool]

WM,

I am not a sociopath, but I didn't feel guilty about the decision.

I often don't feel guilty either.  I have often not felt guilty about having affairs. Once you cross the line it gets easier. I want to go back to feeling guilty. These emotions plague 'nons' for a reason - they are self preservation mechanisms.

We had been together for 26 years and most of it was fair at the best of times.  I was acting selfishly to be sure.

I have gone 8 years with no sex with my wife. 26 years is a long long time. I don't know how you did it. Rather than acting selfishly, I think you deserve a medal.

I have always felt Ayn Rand's 'Judge and prepare to be judged' is a more honest way of looking at life.  We all judge -it is part of our wiring and survival instinct.

I'll check out the book. I am in the AA programme and we are supposed to not be judgemental of others. I have improved in this area over the years. It is a primitive survival mechanism designed to root out detractors, but in modern society it can also lead to resentments.

It was in this belief that I got hung up.  Being in entertainment I have used the idea of 'fairytale love' to sell any number of products and ideas --I got hoist on my own petard.  The irony is not lost on me.

The romantic love fallacy as perpetuated by Hollywood, is precisely what has consistently gotten me into trouble. I am also in the entertainment industry and it has been part of my inner world ever since I can remember. But it is bulls*it. Women are far more pragmatic than men. They go for somebody who will provide security and be a good potential father to their children (clearly not all, but many women) men often go for somebody they can have all embracing sex with and call that love. Hollywood reflects the societal perceived norm and perpetuates the idea there is one great love for all. The One. That idea has virtually ruined my life. In my 30's, while I was morning the loss of the woman who I thought was my great love and soulmate, she was having a baby with another man. Romantic love is bullsh*t. I actually think love itself is a fallacy I think most of it is based on sex and the need for companionship. The rest is just psycho-babble. That's why I won't see a shrink. They will try to tell me what real love is or mature love. To me there are two gears: Passion or boredom and very little in between. When the passion wears off the relationship is usually over but people stay together because they do not want to end up alone. That's when the resentments kick in.

I'll reply to the rest of your reply tomorrow. Great chatting.

[Wicker Man]

Passion or boredom and very little in between.

"One must choose in life between boredom and suffering" -Madame de Stael

When the passion wears off the relationship is usually over but people stay together because they do not want to end up alone. That's when the resentments kick in.

ummmm... . Ok... .theoretically limerence (Drug like love at the limbic level) is (ideally) supposed to bring people together.  As this passion fades, as it must it is unsustainable, a foundation is (should be) created.  :)r. Gottman in Marriage Clinic refers to this as a 'love map' which can be reflected back upon when the going gets tough.  E.g. your dumbass husband (me) has an affair.

I am not sure women are more pragmatic than men and I am not sure whether you are giving them more credit than they are due or damning them for being cold.  Perhaps it is me being a romantic again, but I believe we all, as human beings desire love, warmth, compassion and validation.

In my experience therapy has helped me in asking myself tough questions -no good therapist will really 'tell' you anything.  It is about self exploration and self growth.  You have strong beliefs about Love and life, therapy and reading philosophy may give you a chance to either confirm or perhaps even question your beliefs.  

Yes.  Hollywood has packaged love, branded it and sold it.  I have shot hundreds and hundreds of TV commercials and literally shot a couple propaganda movies.  What the propaganda doesn't tell people is love means hard work and a lot of it.

As to reading Ayn Rand... . I will leave that to your discretion.  She is fascinating, but life is not a meritocracy and her work can be particularly damaging when approaching a career in the perilous world of entertainment.

Nice chatting with you as well.  I wish we could have met under more pleasant circumstances -but we do the best we can each day.


Wicker Man

[Sunfl0wer]

This feels masochistic

*Tippy toeing out the side door now*

[Gemsforeyes]

I have to chime in here... .and I'm older than both RF and WM!  And I am so thankful that my passion and level of desire are the same high level as when I was in my 20's.

I hope I'm not out of order here, but there was something I noticed when I began to date 6 years ago after my 19-year marriage ended.  I had fled my home in California to escape.  Actually BEFORE I was ready, a man approached me when I was having a cup of tea, watching a San Francisco playoff game at an outdoor bar (I just needed to leave my new house for a bit).  He was physically NOT my type (pretty overweight), hysterically funny, and he sat with me.  He asked me out.  I told him I was not yet divorced, which was true, and not yet ready to date, but wanted friends.  So we became friends.  We could talk and laugh for hours on end.  He wanted to start living healthier and asked for my assistance.  I began to think... .hmmm, I COULD be attracted to him.  Then I saw his anger a few times and I thought - NOPE, not for me.  I was going through the divorce process, explained that I didn't know how to fight, and if I did, I would NOT fight with two men at the same time.

Some months passed, and I was ready to really date.  No problem, right?  Except the preponderance of the men were just ANGRY.  Not at me, just at the world or something.  And stoic and devoid of playfulness.   So I thought, wow, do men age with anger?  And WHY?  And where is their playfulness?

And then I met BPDbf.  Now I do recognize that he could have been doing the mirror thing, but if I began to sing or dance in my Florida room, he would jump right up to join me.  He would laugh with me and we had passion, although after a bit of time, he did become the laziest lover I'd ever known.  But he never turned me away and I never turned him away.  And wherever we started, was where we finished.  Had that poor guy not been the cruelest human being I've ever met, I would happily have played with him and managed his chaos forever.  He needed so much.  His rage is what beat me.  That rage wiped away everything good.

But the bottom line for me is this - I do believe that lovers should be playmates.  To me, laughter heats up a room.  That's how my passion is sustained.  And us grown ups need to dissolve our anger.  Of course we all come with "baggage", but for heaven's sake, when we do move on, we've got to stow that baggage on an unreachable shelf so it doesn't land on our heads for the rest of our lives.  :)on't you think?

There is that saying... ."don't believe everything you think", which means we can change our minds.  I've decided to try my hand at being happy.  Just like I used to be (even with that sadness underneath).

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Skip]

Good discussion.

[Jeffree]

So I thought, wow, do men age with anger?  And WHY?  And where is their playfulness?

Being an aging man, I would say yes about being angry now.

Why? Because I feel entirely disillusioned about anything that supposedly matters in life, love, work, family, etc. and all the cliches that go along with those things that are not really turning out to be true. I have spoken about this before. Every day now feels like that day 40-plus years ago when I realized Santa Claus wasn't real.

As regards my playfulness, I gave it away to my ex wives and all the other relationships. They weren't playful back for long, and eventually came to resent everything about me, so it, as well as a lot of other what I thought were endearing qualities about me, has died on the vine. Maybe it can be revived, but I am not expecting any miracles anymore.

J

[Skip]

Maybe it can be revived, but I am not expecting any miracles anymore.

Life experiences can make us bitter or wise. It's a choice. 

[Wicker Man]

I have to chime in here... .and I'm older than both RF and WM!  And I am so thankful that my passion and level of desire are the same high level as when I was in my 20's.

@Gemsforeyes  Good for you!  Last night I was thinking I must clarify and make clear this idea with Romanticfool --I am only 52.  God willing and the creek don't rise I am hoping to have a lot of years ahead of my and I want them to be filled with fun, play and yes... .passion.  I have been working since I was 16 as an apprentice, after college as an assistant and then on to my career.  I have worked too long and too hard to hang up the 'happiness' hat just yet... .or ever.  As a friend of mine says 'Every day above ground is a good one'.

Some months passed, and I was ready to really date.  No problem, right?  Except the preponderance of the men were just ANGRY.  Not at me, just at the world or something.  And stoic and devoid of playfulness.

Perhaps it is my vocation which kept me young at heart, or perhaps it is some level of arrested development, but I see the world through the lens of maybe a 25 year old (except when reading then I am definitely 52 and need glasses).  Happiness is a choice.  It is not always an easy choice to make, but choose carefully.  I have had a hell of a year this last year and once in a while slip into malaise... .but then I remind myself how damn lucky I really am.  Healthy physically and working through my emotional 'opportunities' with a great therapist. 

And then I met BPDbf.  Now I do recognize that he could have been doing the mirror thing, but if I began to sing or dance in my Florida room, he would jump right up to join me... . ... .Had that poor guy not been the cruelest human being I've ever met, I would happily have played with him and managed his chaos forever.  He needed so much.  His rage is what beat me.  That rage wiped away everything good.

My experience with my BPD ex was very similar.  In fact my playfulness helped with her rage.  As one point she was shaking with rage and said 'I am really angry' I answered something between yes and ok.  She sat on the bet and said 'What in the hell do you mean ok?'  I replied 'I love you when you are happy, angry and sad -they are all parts of you... .So it is ok'.  She said ':)amn it!  I am not mad any more'.  I replied ':)on't worry, just wait a bit. I am very annoying you will be mad again before you know it.'  The rage I could handle -the suspicion she would have one day left me I could not.

But the bottom line for me is this - I do believe that lovers should be playmates.  To me, laughter heats up a room.  That's how my passion is sustained.  And us grown ups need to dissolve our anger.  Of course we all come with "baggage", but for heaven's sake, when we do move on, we've got to stow that baggage on an unreachable shelf so it doesn't land on our heads for the rest of our lives.  :)on't you think?

I would say lovers must be playmates.  This is, in fact, what my wife and I are working on right now.  We care for each other deeply and always have.  When I thought I was leaving her I spent a week fixing everything I could around the house to leave it in good order for her.  I remember oiling and sharpening the tools in the garage with tears streaming down my cheeks.  Although I was leaving her I never stopped loving her.  The silver lining from my affair is it has opened the discussion of how do we do this right the second time around.  She is now seeking treatment for OCPD.  OCPD is basically the polar opposite of BPD -no play, all work. no passion, all work, list upon list of reasons there is no time for play.

There is that saying... ."don't believe everything you think"

This is where, in my opinion, therapy and reading philosophy comes in.  I need to change my perception of myself in this marriage and of my wife.  She in turn is attempting the same. 

I wish we could have reached this point without my affair -but honestly I do not think we could have overcome decades of inertia without a watershed moment.  To be clear -I am not in anyway saying my affair was ok or a good thing to do.  It is not the way to begin fixing a marriage --but I am hopeful for the future and neither of us want to settle back into what we had.

Romanticfool -Please don't think of this as a highjacking of your thread.  @Gemsforeyes brought up precisely what I had hoped to discuss with you today.  We are only in our 50's!

[Wicker Man]

Maybe it can be revived, but I am not expecting any miracles anymore.

@Jeffree

I do not believe it is wise to expect miracles, but I do believe it is wise to be ready for them when they come.  Personally I am trying to make myself ready through therapy and a lot of reading. 

Life is hard right now, but I am (cautiously) optimistic .  I am quietly grieving the loss of the dream which was my affair.  I am trying to reconcile how I went from who I was in my marriage to someone who could break it. 

I am trying to understand the emotional bear mauling which was my experience with BPD -the incredible sense of loss and the extreme pity I feel for my ex who suffers from such a debilitating condition.

There is a lot going on in my world, but I am not throwing in the towel.  I am digging deep and going to continue to do my best in life.


Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

Hey Wickerman, Hey all!

I am so impressed by all you've added to this thread! It is so well articulated and wise. Bravo!

I just wanted to echo this piece of what Wickerman is offering here. The 50's is not the end. I met my partner when he was 52 and he's approaching his late 50's now and without offering TMI the 50's is a great a time as any in life for sex and passion.

Now about dysfunction... .I can just say to RF to remember that where there is a will there is a way. I was thinking about tantric sexual practices. I don't know much about them, I think you need a really willing and committed partner for such things, but they write a whole lot about just breathing together. I think that sounds amazing! If I was in a more trusting sexual relationship with someone I felt I shared deep mutual respect with I'd try that technique, all the time. I bet it's amazing!

So, yeah, it sucks that you are dealing with erectile dysfunction, but this is really just limited thinking that you are placing on yourself. Period. Full stop.

There are lots of ways to have intimacy that don't involved penises or even orgasms. I don't have the former and have had few of the later from others and yet I'd still claim a lifetime of great sex.

If you don't find a way out of these limiting beliefs you are gonna throw away a lot of years of life. What do you have to lose? And I ask this to you because I am also asking this of myself. Am I going to let my own limiting beliefs keep me from getting the most out of the rest of my life? I hope not. I hope you don't either.

When my friends and I used to teach critical thinking skills we'd always get people to ask things like "Why do you believe what you believe?" We did that to help people get to see they don't have to carry those beliefs around, they can toss them. Would you consider tossing some of your limiting beliefs and trying on some new ones? Even if for just a few hours at a time?

with compassion, pearl.

[Wicker Man]

There are lots of ways to have intimacy

@pearlsw

When I was with my undiagnosed BPD ex my resting heart rate would drop by 10 points (I had one of those watch thingies).  Sure she was beautiful, but it was her inner beauty which attracted me.  I work around beauty all the time, it is part of my job -and had never strayed before.  Something about her compelled me to speak with her -it was her grace, her brilliance in work, and her spirit. (... .and likely 25 years of unrecognized repression from a marriage badly in need of repair --ugh)

I felt utter peace when we were together.  Even with the relationship being brand new it was not 'monkey sex' all the time it was about a passionate connection -just holding hands, looking into her eyes, talking.  I will miss our endless hours of talking -in a strange way it was even ok when she was raging --I knew it was a manifestation of fear.  She had had a lot to be afraid of in life. 

Even as new lovers we would spend 30 minutes every night video chatting with her grandparents laughing the entire time.  Then exhausted simply go to sleep holding each other, and it was the most passionate of moments.


Back to your point -Yes there is far more to passion than penetration.

Life is a moving target and we must adapt.


Wicker Man

[Jeffree]

Very early on I once fell asleep after s3x with my STBx with her on top of me asleep herself. It wasn't due to complete exhaustion or anything like that. I have no idea what that was about, but it was the most pleasurable experience of my life. It wasn't anything I was trying to make happen. It just happened like that. I haven't tried to duplicate it since or judge a "good time" based on whether I fall asleep afterward or not.

J