Revelations, realizations and insights have bought me to my knees

[Depression = 72% of members]

I mean mean maturing like growing up,  separating from caregivers,  and striking out into adulthood. Of course it varies from culture to culture and family to family. I was a latchkey kid, and also not sexually abused (though I did think it weird when my mom took a bath with me at 3, maybe 4, and had me nurse on her... .I asked to.  That was only one time). I was also adopted, and male.  Lots of differences.

While you were a child, of course you didn't have free will.  What your mother did,  however,  was keep you in a subservient role.  Think of battered intimate partners.  Sure,  it's easy to say,  "just leave!" But something keeps them there.  Sometimes it's circumstantial (finances,  children), but it can also be ghosts of the past,  the "hook" of a dysfunctional past (like my ex's current H) and wanting life to be good despite the view from the outside being anything but. 

How much more of a "hook" is it to be bonded to a parent or a caregiver? Pretty darn powerful, I'd say.  She was your only mother.  All any child wants from their parents is love,  unconditional.  Your mother set conditions,  felonious ones at that. 

[Turkish]

I mean mean maturing like growing up,  separating from caregivers,  and striking out into adulthood. Of course it varies from culture to culture and family to family. I was a latchkey kid, and also not sexually abused (though I did think it weird when my mom took a bath with me at 3, maybe 4, and had me nurse on her... .I asked to.  That was only one time). I was also adopted, and male.  Lots of differences.

While you were a child, of course you didn't have free will.  What your mother did,  however,  was keep you in a subservient role.  Think of battered intimate partners.  Sure,  it's easy to say,  "just leave!" But something keeps them there.  Sometimes it's circumstantial (finances,  children), but it can also be ghosts of the past,  the "hook" of a dysfunctional past (like my ex's current H) and wanting life to be good despite the view from the outside being anything but. 

How much more of a "hook" is it to be bonded to a parent or a caregiver? Pretty darn powerful, I'd say.  She was your only mother.  All any child wants from their parents is love,  unconditional.  Your mother set conditions,  felonious ones at that. 

[Fie]

~It may be a way for me to point the finger at her for being the disordered one.  If I can slap a really serious label on her, then I can believe that I never stood a chance against her and never had a chance to ever say No to her back when it would have made a significant difference in terms of how I am today.

You were a child when this first started. You grew up, where groomed to accept it in the same home, by the person closest to you, the only mother you ever knew. Of course you didn't stand a chance against her. She had massive, unbalanced power over you from the beginning.

I of course agree with Turkish. *Even without her having one or more labels*, you would not have stood a chance. She was your mum, you were and still are her child. There was (and is) an imbalance of power.

~ Holding onto the blame for myself and giving her a pass because she was ill also allows me to stay enmeshed with her.  I won't have to say goodbye and i won't have to finish grieving.
~ Ultimately, all of the above boil down to me not having to grow up.

Also here I think you are being too severe on yourself. I don't think that putting a label on her means that you allow yourself to stay enmeshed. It can be the total opposite. Putting one or more labels on her might just mean that you want to convince yourself that you should in fact say goodbye. Very possible that you are looking for a way out of the enmeshment. After all ... .if someone is so sick and their behaviors are so abnormal ... .why should we try and try ?

[Sunfl0wer]

Gonna speak for myself here in case it is relatable, and cause we all got our reasons for us, so maybe not relatable, anyways... .

For me, I have been a big fan of labels to cope.  Started with my first access of a psychology book my big sis had.  I was floored reading it.  As a young teen it validated what I suspected all along but could not put into words.  I finally had proof that what was happening around me my whole life was not ok at all.  Even categorized as dysfunction, or as the book title, abnormal psychology.

Ever since that moment, I read, read, read everything, still kinda do, as much as I can about what is and isn't normal psychology.  I learned to use labeling things as my major coping mechanism.

It kinda helped me to recreate what to strive for, undo the learning of my upbringing.  Certain things were labeled by this book as abnormal.  I could see this around me, felt like huge back up in my head to my values, also, I could avoid doing abnormal things and turning out like them.  (Funny enough, my T told me to get a hold of a Normal Psych book, cause I couldn't relate to that info at all, was so confused reading it.). I could find ways to stand up to Abnormal stuff from them, and feel confident about it.

Here is what I feel it served... .
It served to help seperate me from the dysfunction.
Helped me to feel I had a way to remove myself from it.
Helped me to identify it, label it, then stay distant.

So early in my learning, and even today, I find labeling a very soothing thing for myself.  

Yet, as I move on, I find that removing the labels I originally created is another level of healing beyond that.  I find it a bit primitive to think as though, only a "pedophile" would do xyz behavior, or only an "abuser" would do xyz behavior.  First of all, because if I look at the list of abusive behaviors, well. I have to admit that sure, I have yelled before at my BF too, so does that make me an abuser?  :)o the mitigating circumstances matter? Or I think back to a child I knew, who was 12 and severely and disgusting abused by her parents, locked in a dark garage to live, made to have sex with men.  In foster care, she was found having sex with the neighborhood boys.  So is she a victim or abuser, or what?  Where do we draw these lines?  Maybe we will say, if she continues victimizing young boys after reaching a birthday of 16, or 18?

Kinda hard to express, kinda sounding rambly.

I guess, in the beginning, labels can help me gain initial distance I need from a situation to cause me to start healing.

Yet, to continue healing, I feel I then need to remove the label in a way, to see this person as more than their label, to re humanize them again.

We label people "homeless guy" "pedophile" etc and the implication is that it means we are not like them, they are different than the rest "of us."

Yet where does that leave us?
Does it keep us too protected? So much that we dont see the harm in the "almost pedophile behaviors" that are still harmful?
So protected and seperate that maybe there is an additional part to face?

Can't explain it well, just for me, at some point removing the label, integrating that person into my awareness without the label, helps me feel at greatest peace with the whole mess.  Seems to me like a second level of healing in this.

[Kwamina]

Why wasn't I able to figure this out when I was a kid?  So many here figured out that their uBPD/BPD was well... .uBPD/BPD when they were young.  They got out of the house fast.  I got out twice and had the perfect opportunity to not go back... .twice as an adult.  But I went back.

Yes, but so many of us didn't. I only found out about BPD when I was 30. Though I clearly remember as a 9/10 year old not wanting to live at home anymore, I did not move out fast. I lived with my mother until my late twenties. Yet here I am as the Board Parrot.

She was your only mother.

For me what Turkish says here pretty much sums it all up. No matter what has happend, she was and will always remain your only mother.

Yet, as I move on, I find that removing the labels I originally created is another level of healing beyond that.
... .
Seems to me like a second level of healing in this.

I like Sunfl0wer's idea of levels of healing. I too have found that labels serve a specific purpose during specific stages of the healing proces. Yet I have also found that as I heal more certain labels in a way become less important. An example are the concepts of FOG, the Karpman Triangle and projecting and splitting. Learning about these concepts and being able to classify my uBPD family-members' behavior with them, was extremely helpful to me. It gave me a better understanding of what I was dealing with and allowed me to develop new strategies for interacting with them. However, as I learned more and healed more, it has become less important for me to apply these labels to my family-members' behavior. The main thing I focus on now is myself and the tools I can use like S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N... It has become less important for me to apply those labels to their behavior and more important to apply the tools that help me break through their negative behavior, regardless of the label I could place on it.

In your particular case I think you attaching certain labels at this point can be very healthy and a step forward. You have resisted placing certain labels on your mother such as abuser and also resisted placing certain labels on yourself such as victim. We are talking about very serious matters here and I can imagine that attaching certain labels will make things more real, or perhaps will make things real for the very first time. I can also imagine that the labels you have struggled with and resisted evoke very strong emotions and that this might be the reason you resisted them for so long. Not using these labels would then also mean not having to deal with those strong emotions, not having to deal with the fear and ultimately not having to deal with all of reality. Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

Putting one or more labels on her might just mean that you want to convince yourself that you should in fact say goodbye.

I can definitely see the validity in what Fie says here. Labeling your mother a certain way, also means letting go of your old labels for her. Seeing your mother as an abuser who victimized you, does indeed mean saying goodbye to that loving fantasy mother. It can be a massive internal struggle when we want to hold on and let go at the same time, for who really likes to let go of the only mother they ever had? Even though it might only be a fantasy mother who only really ever existed in our own head... .it was all we had.

PS. Yes, I'm in Analytic Parrot mode again, but the wolf, Sunfl0wer and Fie got me thinking so it's actually their fault

[Fie]

Thank you Sunflower for sharing your thoughts about labeling. Now I understand why I feel labeling is so important to me. A friend of mine who's psychologist always tells me I sometimes should not label so much. I don't question her expertise yet I always feel it is still important for me to label. I never really got to lay my finger on the why of it. Now I get it... .as you said : I am learning what not to do, by labeling disorders as such, and seeing that certain behaviors are attached to those labels. And then make sure I don't end up doing the same things.
It also enables me to stay away from people I have labeled. They have a label = run Fie !

Cool, thanks for pointing that out  :-)

[Sunfl0wer]

Lol!

PS. Yes, I'm in Analytic Parrot mode again, but the wolf, sunfl0wer and Fie got me thinking so it's actually their fault

I feel compelled to point out, I so appreciate how you can easily toggle from a serious topic, to humor, and smoothly and well.

(Personally working on my toggle abilities.  I so appreciate the posting here in how we can refer to another's as I post dry, seeming uncaring at times, lack warm fuzzy stuff, but it can get integrated into stuff sorta.  My toggle switch is in T process.)

Also thanks Harri for opening the door for others to have the privilege to talk about your experiences.  I was reading mostly quietly.  It is soo healing for myself to see how well everyone is working through on this post.  So good for me to see examples of kindness in many forms, from different folks.  It feels so healing to read everyones responses, even though this is not my experience, so just thanks for opening this up Harri!

(I still have many Parts of myself I am afraid to face, I am grateful to see your bravery, it gives me hope)

Thanks Fie! I'm kinda working on removing labels these days when I can.  Lol, even removing the label that labeling is "bad!"  Confusing, but makes sense to me... . 

[Fie]

Yes, I'm in Analytic Parrot mode again, but the wolf, Sunfl0wer and Fie got me thinking so it's actually their fault grin

Heheh I'm a child of BPD, so I'm used to get the blame always. So go ahead, one more time can't hurt ! 

[Rebecca333]

Hi, Harri. 

You asked about what kind of therapy I have been in.  (I’m answering here on the boards rather than with a private message in the hopes that this discussion might be helpful to other abuse survivors.)  * Trigger warning – discussion of sexual violence, self-abuse, etc.  Please be kind to yourself if you know this will distress you.  Also, apologies for some rough language and the length of this post.

Well, I wish I could say that there was just one answer, and a quick one at that, to this question!  But in reality, I have worked through several processes in my journey.  First, I’m not “done” with therapy.  I’ve seen different counselors off and on since I was about 17 and I am now in my fifties.   

When I first started, I was seeing a female counselor who did a lot of basic crisis intervention and stabilization with me.  At the time, I was still living at home with my parents and really doing badly.  I worked through some very deep shame with her, which was assisted greatly by her openness about her own personal experiences.  She shared that she had been gang-raped, which I think was one reason that I was able to even start talking about the depth of my self-destructive nature at the time.  I was walking alone in dark places late at night, throwing urine in my own face, and was almost constantly suicidal.  I’m afraid in hindsight that I probably scared the s**t out of this poor woman!  God bless her, she helped me greatly, including getting me on a brand new medication with no track record, Prozac.  Yep, I’m that old.

One of the most helpful things I did was participate (some years later) in a group that was specifically for child abuse survivors.  Although I was the only one abused by her mother, I found this extremely helpful.  Reading books and articles is not the same as hearing and talking with others who have experienced similar things.  This group was facilitated by two experienced therapists, one male and one female.  I was in that group for probably three or four years.  The membership was fairly steady over that time.

At one point, I was seeing a female art therapist (for a few years, maybe?) who was helpful with some of my spiritual issues in particular.  “Art never lies,” she said, and I found that to be true, if I was really open to the process.  I continue to this day to use art as a personal therapeutic process, both intentionally and unintentionally, as I draw, paint, sculpt, and make multi-media artworks.

Although not technically “therapy,” a tremendously helpful force in my life was a small faith-sharing group that I was in for years.  I never shared my full story with these people, but still was able to take some comfort and support in the company of good people who were hopeful and shared on a more than superficial level.  The main group broke apart under the stress of the death of one of the members, but to this day, I meet every week or so with two other women who I have now known for decades.

I have been helped by reading a lot about surviving sexual abuse, the impacts it has, and the family dynamics that surround abuse.  I have no doubt that my sisters BPD was fostered by the dysfunctional family we both grew up in.  My current therapist (more on him in a bit) recommended reading on PTSD which made me feel like I wasn’t crazy after all.  This board was been so helpful in understanding my sister.   I can’t say enough about self-educating via reading as an adjunct to talk therapy.

Also, I’ve been on various medications over the years.  I struggled mightily but have finally come to terms with the fact that my childhood experience of unremitting high levels of stress affected my neurological development.  I thought at various times: I’m weak, medication is just a crutch, I’m going to get addicted, I’m just trying to avoid really solving my problems, I’m hurting myself because these doctors don’t really know what this stuff does, and on and on.  Well, many years of experience has taught me that whether it takes two weeks or a year, if I go off my medication I get depressed.  And not down-in-the dumps depressed, I’m talking throw-myself-in-front-of-a-bus depressed.  My need for medication certainly doesn’t imply that I think everyone needs it, but for me, it’s a essential part of my recovery.

Physical therapy, in the form of a very skilled and kind massage therapist, helped me start to get back into my own body.  I still struggle with this, but at one point in my life, I made the financial sacrifice to have a massage once every two weeks.  I firmly believe that unresolved trauma binds itself not only to the psyche but to the body.  The massage released tension in my shoulders that was very painful – and helped me realize that my energy flows in my body were blocked and stagnant.  As I said, still a constant issue for me, but I have made great strides in this area.

Over the years, other things that have been incredibly helpful for me have included: singing in choruses (there’s actually a fair amount of clinical evidence on sound therapy), drumming circles, extensive time in nature and in gardening, silent and directed spiritual retreats, learning to meditate, simple yoga practice, and even teaching others to paint.

Finally, my current therapist is male.  I’ve seen him for years – at least 15 years to be more specific.  It’s been quite the journey.  I have questioned off and on if it’s reasonable to be in therapy for so long.  What, am I that crazy?  Am I not fixable?  Am I just completely dependent on this man?  I hate therapy!  And…... it has been an incredibly beneficial and healing relationship.  I have learned that, unlike with my mother, someone can be safe.  I can get angry and frustrated with someone, and they won’t hit me or go away.  I can get annoyed when he doesn’t get it.  And, he can make a sincere apology that I can accept.  So, I need more support than people raised in healthier families.  So what?  With his help, I have been able to resist the seduction of suicide and finally have given up that unhealthy avenue for good.
   
Right now, I’m moving slowly but steadily from just surviving to actually enjoying my life, living with purpose, and being open to love in its many forms.  Dealing with my BPD sister is very difficult but not all-consuming.   I am slowly learning to tolerate happiness, and order, and peace, and beauty, and joy!

Harri, what all this has taught me is that therapy is not one size fits all.   At different times, different things and people can help.  As others have said, healing goes on at many levels, like walking a spiral until you reach the tender inner soul that just wants to be loved and to love others.  At various times, I have considered EMDR and other modalities, but right now I am content and am making progress.  If ever I feel like I’m getting disorganized or losing touch again, I’m open to whatever! 

Peace,

Rebecca

[Kwamina]

This has been an awesome discussion so thanks for starting it Harri

Right now, I’m moving slowly but steadily from just surviving to actually enjoying my life, living with purpose, and being open to love in its many forms.  :)ealing with my BPD sister is very difficult but not all-consuming.   I am slowly learning to tolerate happiness, and order, and peace, and beauty, and joy!

I want to thank you too Rebecca333 for so openly sharing your experiences and all the steps you've taken to heal yourself. I agree that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. It would be nice if there were such a thing, but healing from traumatic abuse is complex and takes time and patience. You have come a long way and it is wonderful to read how you are transitioning from surviving (which by itself is a significant achievement), to thriving and enjoying your life

Take care my friends  

The Board Parrot

[Harri]

Hah.  Perfect timing Kwamina.  Over the last two weeks I have alternated between running from this thread and freezing at the thought of posting again.  I woke up today telling myself to just Do It!  So I am.  

See, I did not know where to go from here.  Part of me so wants to freeze where I was comfortable, believing that I am inherently evil and that I was stupid and dumb and too naive and trusting to see through the BS of my mother and father.  Another part of me wants to run away because to change I know I have to leave the comfortable known role I have played and learn new ways of being and somehow figure out how to break down the falsehoods and illusions that have kept me standing. Wobbly as it has been, I have been standing.  

I've kept saying in T that all the stories I have to tell are the same thing over and over.  I told of 4 main things that have shaped me and followed me through my whole life.  Those 4 stories pretty much explain everything anyone, including me, needs to understand about me.  

But what happens when the story telling and remembering have been mastered and it is time to stop?  I don't really know.  I think it is time to stand firm and learn to move freely.  On Tuesday, my T and I agreed that it is time for me to stop pushing him away.  Three weeks ago I asked him if he has kept track of how many times I have sat there and rolled my eyes at him.  He said nothing, but I swear there was a twinkle in his eyes (projection?  Who cares!)  Two weeks ago, I asked him if he is tired of me pushing him away with a very long pointy stick.  Again, he said nothing, but I think that twinkle was back.    One week ago I asked him if he too wanted to bang his head against the brick wall in the office everytime he had to repeat something or watch me do the same old pushing away behaviors.  He said nothing.  This week he said it is time for me to change those things and stop fighting what I now know to be true.  I left feeling scared and numb, not quite sure what that means for the next therapy session.  I realized I was working myself up over nothing.  My T will still be my T and as supportive and accepting as ever.  I will still be as stubborn and as determined as ever and it will all work out.  I can trust myself and my T to make sure of that.  So I am done fighting it, for now. <--- I can only think about now right now.  So here is me acknowledging truth:

I was targeted.  I was a victim.  I was abused.  I was brainwashed and groomed.  I was in an impossible situation with no chance of me seeing through the insanity.  I am worth so much more than what I got.  I was betrayed by my parents and the people around me who chose to stay steeped in their own dysfunction.  I was not born flawed or special or designed for abuse and I am worthy just the same as everyone else.  It is time to stop letting lies, manipulations, gaslighting, and someone elses mental illness define me.  
(I still feel like the above is just a poor-me-pity-me-whining-fest  but I am telling myself to shut it!

Here is me embracing some new, uncomfortable yet healing stuff:
This thread shows that I am supported.  People care about me.  People can accept me in spite of my past.  I share a history with a few who are brave enough to open up and share with me and others here so I know I am not alone.  Even those who do not share a particular part of my history can still hear me and reach out and lend me a hand when I need it.  That one part of my history does not define me and others can see that far better than I can right now.

In the interest of full disclosure, all of the above also played a part in my freezing and running.  The kindness, acceptance, and honesty you have all generously shared with me makes me feel very vulnerable.  Kwamina, Rebecca, Fie, Turkish, polly, Wools, Sunlower, drained, and Panda thank you for everything but especially for making me feel soo uncomfortable!      I agree that this is an awesome thread and I am awed to be on the receiving end of such generosity.  

You are all helping me to craft a new story that I can use to help me stand strong.  

I will be back to reply to the individual posts that I have not addressed yet.  I just wanted to shake off the fear and prove to myself that I can stop running and trying to push people away first.  Even myself.  Writing what I did about the truths of my past makes me want to run from *me* by numbing out, bingeing, retreating into my safe inner world.  I can't though.  Seems I really have learned a new trick.  I have the voice of my T combined with my own voice telling me to just sit with my feelings and I actually believe I am going to be okay.

Thanks for helping me to reach this place.  

[Sunfl0wer]

In the interest of full disclosure, all of the above also played a part in my freezing and running.  The kindness, acceptance, and honesty you have all generously shared with me makes me feel very vulnerable.  Kwamina, Rebecca, Fie, Turkish, polly, Wools, Sunlower, drained, and Panda thank you for everything but especially for making me feel soo uncomfortable!      I agree that this is an awesome thread and I am awed to be on the receiving end of such generosity.  

You are all helping me to craft a new story that I can use to help me stand strong.  

I will be back to reply to the individual posts that I have not addressed yet.  I just wanted to shake off the fear and prove to myself that I can stop running and trying to push people away first.  Even myself.  Writing what I did about the truths of my past makes me want to run from *me* by numbing out, bingeing, retreating into my safe inner world.  I can't though.  Seems I really have learned a new trick.  I have the voice of my T combined with my own voice telling me to just sit with my feelings and I actually believe I am going to be okay.

Thank you for expressing yourself.
So much inside of me, hidden, gets to relate, and feel validated, heard, and has a bit of healing as that is occurring.
Not saying this to scare u away, btw 

Must be why I appreciate Parrot breaking up the seriousness with bird brained humor often 

Also wanted to say, not that ya need my permission at all... .
But no reply is needed
Ya never owe me anything
But likely ya know that
Yet part of me feels like stating.

Also wanted to state... .
Totally get the freezing thing... .
So confusing to me cause it is only something relatively new to me to understand
Actually learned from some post around here one day... .
That freezing is another response in addition to fight/flight.
So it is still a definition evolving for me
And still rewriting my own Internal recollections or stuff using this new term, but seeing how much I actually do freeze... and had no idea.

Just feel compelled to say... .
While I was mute for so long, way too long... .
Your posts give voice to many things, concepts, stuff... .
I am still quiet regarding.
Thx for you

[Fie]

I had a rather crappy day today but after having read your last post I feel quite good actually   

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri! 

Waving my greetings to you! 
You've come a long ways. I'm glad. There have been many points in my T when I don't know if it's more frightening to look back or to look forward. One is known (the looking back), and the other is unknown (the looking forward) but just as terrifying. Sometimes now I'm even catching glimpses of excitement to look ahead, and strangest of all... .I am finding myself not looking back as much but looking ahead more.

Don't worry about that for yourself right now. I merely wanted to tell you that for once in my life, I am beginning to discover this new place ahead of me and I'm not as afraid. I'm not done with my looking back, oh no, but even though I don't understand it, my journey is changing. I am changing, just like you are before our very eyes.

One week ago I asked him if he too wanted to bang his head against the brick wall in the office everytime he had to repeat something or watch me do the same old pushing away behaviors.

How often I've said to my T that he has so much patience to keep repeating the same things to me over and over again, for all the listening he does too, and he is very kind and says, "We're gonna have patience and repeat it over and over again." I can have oodles of patience with others normally, but with myself? Who's kidding who?

When I first began in T, I thought for sure there was no abuse in my family. Then a few months later, I began asking how one would define abuse, and I asked quite a few people what they thought. It was only when I was ready and able to look the possibility of abuse fully in the face (the painful looking back) that I was free to look forward, knowing and accepting the truth. I'm thankful that the revealing has come in stages for how would we ever survive such an onslaught of emotions if it were not released gradually? Those moments are enough; one at a time please.

Keep going! Fight the fight! Hugs!
 
Wools

[Kwamina]

This thread shows that I am supported.  People care about me. People can accept me in spite of my past.

We care indeed  And yes you are accepted, all of you is accepted, including your past you

... .thank you for everything but especially for making me feel soo uncomfortable!    

You're welcome! And you know since I'm a parrot, I'm just gonna keep repeating the same things to you over and over again and make you feel uncomfortable over and over again But you know what happens when you allow yourself to be exposed to those uncomfortable feelings over and over again? After a while, it doesn't feel as uncomfortable anymore as it did before, doesn't feel as scary anymore.

Take care

The Comfortable Parrot

[Harri]

Hi all.  There has been so much to think about and absorb here.  I get this stuff intellectually, but emotionally it has, obviously been harder to grasp.  Each gentle poke, question, challenge you all have given me coupled with your patience and compassion have helped me break through the emotional barriers. 

Turkish, thanks for the comparison with battered spouses.  It clicked.  The hook, the ghosts of the past and basic need/want for a loving parent no matter how incompetent are sufficient for me to have made the 'conditioned choices' that kept me in the cycle of abuse.  Everything just fits so well.  I've been thinking about the mother child relationship quite a bit.  I think this particular relationship is the most intimate one you can have, moreso than with an SO or spouse.  We are, quite literally, a part of them.  It is not just biology that makes that true but the nurture part as well, even if it is dysfunctional.

I was a latchkey kid, and also not sexually abused (though I did think it weird when my mom took a bath with me at 3, maybe 4, and had me nurse on her... .I asked to.  That was only one time).

Turkish, that was highly inappropriate of your mother and it being "only one time" does not really change that nor does the fact that you "asked to do it".  As you know, I think it is important for people to define and label their own experiences.  So what label would you put on this? 

Fie, Sunflower, and Kwamina, thanks for the insight on the benefits and limits of labels.  I agree that at certain stages of healing labels can be more important.  I can see it in my own self.  Years ago, BPD was an important label to me in terms of my own healing.  Eventually though, it no longer mattered so much, and I did, like you stated Sunflower, see my mother as the hurt damaged human she was.  I am going to attribute my quest for a label to this new level of healing and understanding.  I am sure with time, it's importance will fade.  Right now though, I think what Kwamina said sums it up for me.  I need to accept and become more comfortable with my own label of victim and survivor of emotional and sexual abuse so that I can heal emotionally and deal with the fear and see all of reality.  That is some pretty wise stuff, especially coming from a bird!

Kwamina, thanks for sharing about your staying with your mom.  I had no idea.  Heh.  When I read that, I thought hey, he is pretty cool and normal so maybe that means I am not all that bad. 

Sunflower, I have never found your comments to be dry or uncaring.  Far from it.  This is not an easy subject matter to jump into and I have to say that the responses that I have received are much more than I had hoped for.  I am glad and thankful that you decided to participate and it helps me to know that parts of you are healing because of that.  I am sure that when you are ready you will face those parts of you that scare you right now and I know that you will face them with courage and grace.

Wools, you reassurances about the normalness of my process in therapy makes me feel warm and comfy.  I am so glad you can look to the future with excitement.  I am so deep in the trenches right now that I am taking it moment by moment.  I think I have said this before but this round of therapy is quite different from those I've had in the past.  Far more intense and exhausting.  So to know you have been there and knowing you have come such a long way is wonderful and so inspiring.  And you lost your fear!  Whooping and hollering for you here... .but in a quite and dignified way... .okay, not really quiet or dignified.  But there is definitely joy and happiness involved!

Rebecca, I am going to do a seperate post in response to you tomorrow. Again, thank you so much for sharing with me.  You also give me hope.

Kwamina, thanks for the promise to keep making me feel uncomfortable.  I must say that you excell at that.     Crazy bird got skillz.

 

[Turkish]

Strange that I remember it well given I was 3, 4 at most.  My ex wanted my to take naked showers with our son. I said no way.  But she reacted like I was molesting then D1 when I was making kissy noises on her ear through her hair, and freaked when then S3 went through a phase of kissing me on the mouth.  

It's hard to understand what's appropriate when a pwBPD is involved.  

[Harri]

Hi Rebecca.  I apologize.  Said I was going to reply to you 'tomorrow', which was yesterday but I did not- I fell asleep! I am so thankful that you shared about the different types of therapy you have done over the years.  Most especially, it was very good for me to know that it is still an ongoing process for you.  Not that I am happy you still need support, but to see that you are okay with the fact that it takes time and that that does not reflect the success or failure of therapy gives me a better perspective and a great deal of relief.  Clearly you have done quite a bit of healing through your hard work and determination.  Congrats on defeating the self-harm and suicidal monsters!  

Reading about the different types of therapy gives me hope as well.  I tend to focus so hard on getting one thing right and feel so anxious about it that I sometimes lose sight of alternative pathways.  I've spent some time thinking about what else I can do to 'get better' and realized that I am trying to speed my way through this again.  I tried that before and thought I did it, only to realize that it was an illusion (as I talked about at the beginning of this thread).  Right now talk therapy is doing wonders with me though.  

I have so many questions about life for you Rebecca!  I don't know if you would feel comfortable answering here or if you prefer PMs... .or even if you are still interested in talking with me about this.  I will ask the big one here though and feel free to disregard if you prefer (anyone reading, please feel free to chime in as well).  I am wondering about disclosure of your past with close friends.  I had one romantic relationship that was a bit of a disaster.  We got together after he knew of a lot of my past so it was easy in a way.  I never had to say "hey, this is what happened to me... ." or whatever it is that one says.  My 'friends' know very little, except for one who knows some, but I have come to realize the friendship is very unbalanced and not healthy for me (we have been friends for about 16 years... .way back when I was a lot more messed up!)  So how does one handle such things?  The day to day conversations where people talk about their childhoods or their family.  Stuff like that.  How have you handled it?  (or anyone else reading this thread as we all have weird stuff in our history).  I can usually work around the past with a joke or some way to avoid giving details but I am stressing about how to handle more intimate relationships (not romantic ones- just friends).  I am no where close to actually having a friend, but the fear is there and has been holding me back for decades from letting people get close (tho there are other reasons for that as well which I am working on in T).

Rebecca, thanks again for opening up with me about your experiences.  

[Harri]

Wools, I keep thinking about where you said you did not know your family situation was abusive until just a few years ago.  So many at this site seem to say the same thing... .they thought their childhood was good or okay only to realize after learning about abuse and BPD here that their childhood was far different than good and was not even okay.    

Turkish, I am always surprised when people can remember things from when they were so young.  It is fascinating to me that even at that age, you knew it was 'weird'.  Your daughter knew her Uncle should not have touched her.  I knew what my mother was doing to me was wrong in that I would hear a man's voice in my head telling me stuff like 'she should not be doing this to you and she should not be saying things like that to you'.  My T helped me to see that that voice was me, as yound as I was, knowing that what was happening was wrong (in spite of my being brainwashed, groomed and raised to take it all).  I had been asking him what I asked here in this thread--->  How come I was too stupid to not know it was wrong when so many others figured it out.  He seems to think I did know and that was my child like way of dealing with it---> this man's voice I used to look forward to hearing when I was little and missed him if he did not talk to me.  

So in my case, I knew, but was trained to ignore what I knew was wrong like many others who did not speak up out of fear or terror.  I think we do know on some level but get the right mix of family/circumstances and personality, and anything is possible, ranging from good and healthy to toxically bad.

[Kwamina]

Turkish, that was highly inappropriate of your mother and it being "only one time" does not really change that nor does the fact that you "asked to do it".

You are right Harri. It only takes one time to totally destroy a child's trust. My mother was emotionally and psychologically abusive, which also affected me physically, but she did have and still has certain boundaries. She was never physically abusive and is very strongly against hitting your children. I don't remember ever feeling like she was physically going to hurt me, though when she goes into a BPD rage, everything can happen of course (like when she threw a saucer that she held in her hand because she was doing the dishes at my non-BPD sister, fortunately she missed her but I never forgot this episode).

She was also never overtly sexually abusive (however very much into emotional incest), but she once did do something highly inappropriate that affected me for years. Once (I probably was 12/13 years old) after I had taken a shower and was still in the bathroom, my mother's mind short-circuited again. She was planning to use the bathroom next, but had heard my brother (narcissistic with explosive rage) getting out of bed and was worried that he was going to use the bathroom before her. So instead of talking to my brother and saying she wanted/needed to use it before him, what did she do? She freaked, opened the bathroom door while I was still in it and came into the bathroom and closed the door behind her  I was very glad that I was already done showering and already had my towel wrapped around me, but what she did still really disturbed me and broke my trust. I could not understand that she did not understand how inappropriate this was and what a clear disrespect of my boundaries she showed here. This happened once and only once and was a clear result of her BPD mind short-circuiting, but the effects on me were still the same as when it would have been an intentional act of sexual abuse. And either way it was still intentional, because even though she freaked, she did intentionally open the door and enter the bath room knowing full and well that I was still in there. She was the one that did it, but I was the one feeling disgusted and dirty and violated. Before this happened, I thought that we did not have to lock the bathroom in our own house because your family would never cross that boundary right? Well wrong... .

It only happened once but I never trusted again and always locked the bathroom door after that incident. The horrible thing was that some time later, the lock of the bathroom door was broken and as with so many things, my mother did not get it fixed. Because of what happened before, this situation with the broken lock made me very uncomfortable. It never happened again, but this one event affected me for years and years and actually 'till this day, I am still on guard whenever I am in the bathroom and other people are also in the house.

[heartandwhole]

I would like to thank you, Harri, and everyone else posting in this thread, for sharing so openly and honestly. It warms my heart that there is a safe place like this to express what we are going through, working on, recovering from.

Harry, I feel humbled and awed at the honesty and courage that you have expressed in this thread. Thank you for inspiring me to be as brave in my life and relationships.  

Surely such acceptance, kindness and love comes with strings attached and all sorts of expectations right?  I mean the next thing I know I am going to have to give away parts of myself again, parts I need to hold onto because they are all I have even though they are damaged and somewhat putrid with all that has come before this point.  How can I possibly share those parts of me?  Surely the fact that they are damaged will cause someone harm right?

I can understand your feelings here, Harri, and can relate to that running—and to thinking that strings are attached to that much kindness.

It is going to be viewed as a whining and poor me post full of drama.  

But wait a minute!  This post definitely is full of red flags and anyone reading this will stay away from me!  Lord knows this place is full of red flag paranoia and here I am waving the red flags right in their faces.  I am literally covered in red flags too!

Ummmm... .Well... .F-you!    Sweet blessed wonderful alienating sarcasm.  

And there I go... .running again.

It makes so much sense that you feel this way. And I feel zero drama and zero pity and zero danger coming out of your expressions here. I see a brave, reflective, kind, and strong person, taking care of herself and sharing what she is finding.

I'm sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable. I really get that. I feel that way too, sometimes. I think that discomfort is a signal that we have touched an area that especially wants to open to love.  


heartandwhole

[jhkbuzz]

The truly sick part is that I can't even write stuff like I endured it or tolerated it.  Nope.  Those words do not apply in my situation.  She had to go and make it pleasurable for me and tied it to the good Harri who was praised and 'loved'.  I enjoyed it and even longed for it when she withdrew from me in silence and looked at me with those black eyes.  Those times, she would toy with me... .giving me just enough and then taking it away.

I was molested by my older brother, and I think this ^ was the most difficult part to come to terms with - the overwhelming shame that the experience was sometimes pleasurable. I took on an awful lot of 'ownership' over the molestation (as well as crushing amounts of shame), thinking that if it was sometimes pleasurable then I must be completely at fault, and probably didn't do enough to stop it.

A therapist once explained to me that the simple truth is that the body responds - that's what it does - regardless of the circumstances. If someone tickles you, you laugh - no matter who it is, because it's involuntary. Same with sexual stimulation.

Your comment that it is 'sick' is not true Harri- it's simply the way the human body responds. Compounded  by the fact that it was happening with someone who you loved and who you depended upon for your very existence.

Thank you for sharing so honestly and openly. It's helped me immensely. 

[purekalm]

Hello Harri,

I know so many have said this to you already, but I thank you for sharing this vulnerable part of yourself, your learning process and all your feelings surrounding it. You probably don't believe it at the moment, but you are very brave to post this and to keep responding even though it's hard. I'm so glad that you're able to get help from a T that you're ready to work out the truly tough stuff with.   I just spent a good bit of time reading all the posts in this thread, (due to not being here for awhile and avoiding) and I'm glad I did. 

I totally get the running part, which is why I'm here sometimes and not here others and want so badly to delete my account and try to forget I already revealed so much, ugh.

For me, I was always 'self-aware' I guess you'd say and I knew exactly what was going on (just not in technical terms) and that it was wrong. I just had no way out, and I wanted to believe that things done were not intentional and I knew the reality of four kids being taken away could've landed us in a worse situation, so we decided together to keep our mouths shut.

 I am assuming that for me the grooming didn't work so well because I believe I have Asperger's, (my son has autism and is SO much like me) and I saw and thought things differently always. My parents and everyone around me always knew I was different, even since I was an infant, but there were no tests or labels, I was just 'different' and I don't plan on getting tested now, no point.

Anyways, I say that to say I have two sisters, one older and one younger and a younger brother. All of us dealt with and accepted or denied the abuse in their own ways, even living in the same situation. My younger sister was more like you, she knew what was happening was wrong but was so groomed into accepting and believing it that it took her a long time to admit it and start to deal with it. (He took her under his wing as his personal assistant to teach how to steal, buy/sell and do drugs among other things. This incurred mom's personal wrath towards her more than the rest of us.)

As far as I know we weren't sexually abused, but there is always that weird feeling around my dad who's presence is unsettling when he's in a certain mood and his touch is anxiety inducing. My sisters feel the same, but none of us know why or have any memories, so, that has yet to be revealed if at all.

My mom was the main physical abuser but I agree that the mental and emotional abuse is by far the worst and hardest to acknowledge and overcome. Your story Kwamina of your mom throwing that plate was a normal occurrence for us, but it was whatever was close, a frying pan, broken glass figurine, shoes, books, didn't matter, whatever was close enough.

Once again, thank you Harri for being so honest and vulnerable as you grow. To go from just starting to acknowledge shame to this is so encouraging.   

[fromheeltoheal]

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