Does couple T ever work

[Narrow Gate]

uBPDw wants a divorce after 23 years of marriage and I countered with seeing a couples T again to get an outside opinion. It was the only thing I could think of in the heat of the moment.  We did a little T awhile back with little success.  This was before I found this site and the clouds parted and the fog lifted and BPD had a name.   I am not sure how to proceed.  She is high functioning and used the last experience with a T to fix me.  I might have already muddied the water by sending an intro statement to a possible T with BPD as a problem.  She is a Teacher and not working this summer and I have been a stay-at-home Dad (on disability with MS).  She taught summer school last year and we survived but this summer will be a challenge with her here all the time.  We really could use the T as a couple but individually would be the best for both of us.  I have been validating and watching for triggers but I stepped right into this bear trap and I am stuck.  How can I transition from couples T into individual T for my codependency/enabler and her BPD.

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[55suns]

Hi Narrow Gate:

I usually don't post in this forum because my relationship is over,  but there are some commonalities that I can relate to.  My ex is also a high functioning teacher and summers are definitely the worst as it seems thier attention can be focused soley on what's wrong with the relationship.   I used to call it "the eye of Mordor" effect.

Our therapy experience was not good.  We saw the same T she saw individually and that was a huge mistake.   The T was bonded with her and my ex had her snowed... . not to mention I have heard from several sources since that the T has a horrible reputation (incompetence) within the mental health community in our area.   My ex did the same thing in using the therapy to find what is wrong with me instead of concentrating on her significant past experiences.

If I had to do it again I would go the three therapist route... . one for me (I stupidly didn't realize I needed one), one for her, and one for us.  Not sure if this helps but thought I would share. Best of luck.

[maxsterling]

Mixed results so far.  We started seeing a T together at her insistence. As I recall, it was an incidence with her screaming at me and saying that if I won't go to a T with her, there is no hope for us.  Of course, I was eager to go .  And she had her fears and rules - must be a female T.  Must be soon.  And she was worried that that the T would take my side and "gang up on her".

First T we went to 3-4 times, then GF decided this T must have a crush on me because she always took my side (not my impression at all - I don't think she took anyone's side, just mentioned to my GF that she needs to work on herself).  So, GF found another therapist, and new T seems to have clued in on BPD early on, and spends most of the sessions validating my GF and helping her be stable.  My impression is that the T must know that GF has serious issues that need to be stabilized before we can work on r/s stuff.  And for the most part, my GF is willing. 

Then again, we've been seeing new T for 5 months, and not much has changed.  In one early session, I mentioned how much it hurts me to hear her talk about killing herself all the time, and T suggested she try to cut down on that language and vocalize her discomfort in other ways.  a few months later?  No change.  I still hear the suicide talk at least every other day.  The T has helped me, though, in being a good example of how to validate and calm her down.

Today is another session, and I really feel I need to seriously bring up boundaries and express that there are certain behaviors I cannot live with.  I hope it goes well.

[arjay]

Tried the same with little success.  dBPDxw came away telling me "T said you will never change".  "T" told me otherwise.

The only time the 'ex' seemed receptive, was when I listed all of her complaints and sent it to the "T" in advance of the session.  I joked to the "T" that after looking at her list of complaints of me, thought I needed a lawyer and not a "T".  

As soon as there was any attempt to get her to 'own up' or even talk about her behavior, she was done.

You might check out the posts of others that did find success and were able to maintain a marriage.  It typically involved both in counseling and sometimes even separating while both worked on themselves.  CBT and other methods were used to help the person with BPD and they were receptive and motivated to helping themselves.

Peace

[LoveLove]

Interesting... . before our no contact rule set in place by my bf's therapist, he would come to me and say "well my therapist has said this about you... . " It was always what his therapist had said.

Yet, originally he told me he had issues from his past that he was dealing with in therapy and which is why he wanted the help, so he can get on a better path for him and I... . yet, it seemed like all he did was talk about me in therapy... . instead of his past issues. And it also seemed as though he took whatever the therapist (who I've never spoken to or seen) said as true.

I know they are vulnerable - but more so when they seek help - but do they actually believe what the therapist says about their SO, and forget how the SO actually has been towards them or... . ?

[arjay]

but do they actually believe what the therapist says about their SO, and forget how the SO actually has been towards them or... . ?

I just know from my experience the 'ex' constantly pointed the finger at me.  I stayed with the same T after the 'ex' quit and the "T" told me then that my wife had a personality disorder and that in all her years of counseling, she only encouraged two to separate.  We were one of them  

I was initially surprised and a bit angry that the T was not working towards reconciliation.  Once my wife had quit and ran off, the T explained many things to me and I understood why it was just not going to work (primarily because wife ignored her stuff and blamed the failure of the marriage on me).  BPD or not counseling does not work unless both are committed.

"Ex" lied about so many things to the counselor.  "T" knew better.  Counselors are not stupid, even when they are getting a one-sided story.  Additionally while in counseling, the focus is not on the other person.  It is on the person there.

Peace

[LoveLove]

Arjay,

That's comforting to know. And hopefully all therapists can see through the lies (if any), and can recognize when the person is feeding them bs.

In our case, the therapist advised that we have no contact and part ways completely (my ex's words).

I'm hoping my ex sticks with his therapy... . but who knows. So far he has been listening to his therapist and has not given in to contacting me... . so I see that as a plus.

[arjay]

Arjay,

That's comforting to know. And hopefully all therapists can see through the lies (if any), and can recognize when the person is feeding them bs.

In our case, the therapist advised that we have no contact and part ways completely (my ex's words).

I'm hoping my ex sticks with his therapy... . but who knows. So far he has been listening to his therapist and has not given in to contacting me... . so I see that as a plus.

I have read from other couples that separation while in counseling is a often what is recommended, the reason being is too many triggers for both parties.  Additionally both are recommended to attend counseling to work on their own stuff.  It can be done and others have done it.  It takes commitment by both parties, a lot of hard work and patience.

Peace

[LoveLove]

Arjay,

I wasn't told to complete therapy on my end. I was just told to basically "go away"... . I can better understand now why the therapist doesn't want me around (I felt very hurt initially - questioning why the therapist wouldn't want someone loving by his side as he goes through this)... .

But now I see that there are "triggers" - although I'm not sure what exactly I did/said to trigger... . but I have learned thus far that I have to validate his thoughts/feelings. And I suppose I wasn't doing that... .

I'm wondering what they discuss in therapy with the person with BPD and how they "help" the person... . I'm assuming there is no cure for this, however, better ways of handling things... .

[arjay]

I'm wondering what they discuss in therapy with the person with BPD and how they "help" the person... . I'm assuming there is no cure for this, however, better ways of handling things... .

I can only speak for what was said when "I" was alone in counseling.  I did initially point the finger, until the T commented that "I can either help you to feel better and move on, or you can stay and we can solve some of your apparent long-standing issues, that pre-date your marriage".  So the focus was completely on me.

I had the same concerns you have, what was being discussed when she was alone in her sessions, but I came to realize the whole point of counseling is to better the person there, so quickly the focus changes.

If you are not married to this person (I didn't check your history), likely the "T" figures it is best for all parties to simply go NC.  BPD treatment can take time.  You might want to check out some of the posts from couples that did work through it.  It is a long road and they were married.  It typically involved extended separation too so productive work wasn't undone with the same old problems at home.

Peace to you

[LoveLove]

Arjay,

Not married. And according to my ex, his therapist doesn't want me around because of the damage he may do to me - so she is actually protecting me according to him. And I understand that she needed me out of the picture in order to have him focus on his issues. Yet, for the first week when we were still talking... . I know he talked a lot about me. I even got angry and questioned him about it - asking why he wasn't focusing on his past (since he had stated that his issues were from his past and his abusive relationship in the past), and instead focusing on me... .

But now I'm thinking maybe he was talking about me in order to get help with how he can better our relationship... . but we have not spoken at all for 3 weeks now, so I don't know what is going on... .

[MissyM]

Traditional marital therapy was a disaster with my dBPDh, of course that was before the BPD diagnosis. We are doing a different kind of therapy now, DBT for couples (based on The High Conflict Couple).  It is very structured and is helping immensely.  My dBPDh is in individual therapy, as well and 12 step program for addiction.  This combination seems to be changing things.  I do my own therapy and work for codependency and trauma.

[an0ught]

Arjay,

Not married. And according to my ex, his therapist doesn't want me around because of the damage he may do to me - so she is actually protecting me according to him. And I understand that she needed me out of the picture in order to have him focus on his issues. Yet, for the first week when we were still talking... . I know he talked a lot about me. I even got angry and questioned him about it - asking why he wasn't focusing on his past (since he had stated that his issues were from his past and his abusive relationship in the past), and instead focusing on me... .

But now I'm thinking maybe he was talking about me in order to get help with how he can better our relationship... . but we have not spoken at all for 3 weeks now, so I don't know what is going on... .

You can see this as a limit/boundary imposed on you from the outside. Not ideal but possibly helpful. Gives you space and time to calm down. Take a breath. Think and learn how you want to communicate in the future. Thin and learn how to set your own boundaries in the future - ones that are under your control. Respect, boundaries and sometimes distance are critical to maintain a stable relationship with someone who tends to destabilize at times.

And back to the topic of the OP: One key problem of MC is that the discussion focuses the two parties on each other when the solution is to a large degree in both sides taking more care of themselves.

[MissyM]

How can I transition from couples T into individual T for my codependency/enabler and her BPD. huh

To answer the original question, seems I know some people use a very skilled marital therapist that then encourages them to seek individual counseling.  Those therapists seem to be few and far between.  Most seem to just get frustrated and say to divorce. 

[LoveLove]

An0ught -

What happens if therapy isn't enough? How long is someone supposed to wait around? And can they even live a "normal" life if BPD is what they actually have?

[an0ught]

What happens if therapy isn't enough? How long is someone supposed to wait around?

Nobody is supposed to do anything here. It is entirely up to you to decide what you do. Waiting is generally not a good idea as nothing gets better by simply waiting and when people come to this board it is usually the case that both sides should start working on themselves asap...

And can they even live a "normal" life if BPD is what they actually have?

With treatment a significant number of pwBPD won't meet the criteria for diagnosis anymore. In that sense BPD can be treated better than other mental issues. However getting to this point is not quick. A intensive treatment is an excellent start but needs follow-up. The way I look at it is that pwBPD are emotionally immature. We don't expect a teen to become an adult in a few months. Learning new behavior and emotional regulation takes time and is hard work and won't happen overnight. A stable partner can support here. A struggling partner may slow healing down.

[LoveLove]

An0ught -

Thank you for your reply... . and I agree, waiting is not a good idea because you never know. And it IS best to work on oneself.

As far as therapy goes - only IF they are accurately diagnosed can they get the help that they need. And you're right... . even with intense therapy, they won't suddenly be "cured" ... . almost best to cut ties and separate... .

[arjay]

Nobody is supposed to do anything here. It is entirely up to you to decide what you do. Waiting is generally not a good idea as nothing gets better by simply waiting and when people come to this board it is usually the case that both sides should start working on themselves asap...

I couldn't agree more.  Initially I was hopeful that my BPDxw would get better so "we" would be better.  At the time she started treatment with a specialist (PTSD/PD), she was encouraged to focus on herself and not the relationship, as was pointed out, my issues would have slowed down the process.  She did move out during that time.

Fast forward, 6 weeks of treatment did help her, but I was left scarred and eventually entered treatment myself.  The marriage eventually failed, because she simply needed a lot more help and the problems in our marriage were holding her back and leaving me in chaos.

LoveLove, as much as I do understand, as my "T" told me: "sometimes the kindest thing we can do for one another is to let each other go".  We were married too.  It was tough to hear at the time but now I can say it was the healthiest thing to do.

Peace to you

[LoveLove]

Arjay -

I appreciate you sharing, thank you. I'm sorry you had to go through that. And what's worse - our SO's move on to create more destruction (whether they're in therapy or not). It's incredibly sad... . but as you said it best - best thing we can do at times is to let go... .