PART 2: Brother's wife with BPD traits, my parents are turning blind eye...

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338203.0;topicseen

Enabler, Notwendy, but there are people who have improved significantly with therapy, after they were made aware of their condition. You have valid points about a negative outcome, but then how do you know if you don't try and there is a possibility for someone to improve? What about children involved...the negative effects of their mother's behaviour can't be countered without knowledge being brought out into the open? From the bpd's viewpoint, what is the motivation behind isolating/alienation of FOO? Personally I think if this could be discussed then I would talk with my brother, as he is least likely to have a crazy reaction, on the condition that he doesn't share our suspicions with his wife but at least he has a chance to explore the condition himself privately.

[Jareth89]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338203.0;topicseen

Enabler, Notwendy, but there are people who have improved significantly with therapy, after they were made aware of their condition. You have valid points about a negative outcome, but then how do you know if you don't try and there is a possibility for someone to improve? What about children involved...the negative effects of their mother's behaviour can't be countered without knowledge being brought out into the open? From the bpd's viewpoint, what is the motivation behind isolating/alienation of FOO? Personally I think if this could be discussed then I would talk with my brother, as he is least likely to have a crazy reaction, on the condition that he doesn't share our suspicions with his wife but at least he has a chance to explore the condition himself privately.

[Jareth89]

Again I say, you are considering a VERY dangerous path where I fear you will come off way worse, worsen your brothers situation and get no closer to the outcomes you think are good.

Can you run through step by step what you think will happen if a) you tell your brother b) you tell your sister in-law

Enabler

As mentioned in the previous post I can only hypothesise about reactions to the information but I think since my brother already knows her behaviours are wrong but is 'going along to get along', then I think it's much safer to talk to my brother than her, even though I would be able to speak to her sympathetically.

[Notwendy]

All I can share is my own experience.  That doesn't mean I can predict the outcome in yours. It's up to you to decide on the risk/benefit in your situation when taking action.

[Enabler]

What vested interest has your SIL got to jump on this revelation as truth? At the moment she is gaining more and more control, she will likely not be aware at all of the impact she has on the kids and if anything, alienating her family unit (which doesn't include you as you are alien) from you and your family is seen as a positive if not righteous step. You making PD accusations will feed directly into justifying this claim that you are not only alien (not in her club), but a threat and bad.

The very psyche (generally speaking) of someone with a BPD traits is that they will do anything to protect others from seeing their 'wrongness', their 'brokenness' their core shame. As much as she is maybe attempting to rid herself of threats (you and your family) who may threaten her emotional security (make her feel bad, especially if H chooses you over him... it's certainly not uncommon for pwBPD to think that their spouse fancies their own siblings... even mother), you claiming overtly that she has a PD is like an electrode into the VERY THING that she is likely attempting to protect... her persistent feeling of being bad/wrong/broken/abandoned.

Your brother has learnt to manage his W's emotions, maybe not consciously but you sure as hell learn what hurts like an electric fence and what keeps the proverbial peace. Contacting my sister = pain from W, not contacting my sister = less pain from W. You have to be VERY VERY certain that he receptive to the possibility that his W, the person he believes he is in love with, mother of his children and whom all his worldly hopes and dreams are placed, could have a PD before slowly introducing the idea to him. You can sow very small seeds, step back, stay relevant and allow them to grow.

There's a youtube video at the bottom of this article, I strongly advise you watch it and get your head into the idea of how this is someone's 'normal'... almost no one thinks their own 'normal' is messed up.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

Enabler

[Jareth89]

Thanks for the replies, I did watch that video you mentioned Enabler. I went to my sil's house yesterday for her son's party. My parents went and the in-laws too, so it was an opportunity for me to survey the scene and interactions. I am definitely the one they feel most uncomfortable with. Both her parents are teachers, as are mine. I only have to walk in there and I feel like I've caused trouble or spoiled something...it doesn't come out clearly in their interactions with me, it's not with what they say, often it's with the 'atmosphere'. Like there is an undercurrent of wariness about me, yet I have always done a lot for their daughter.

With my sil I have noticed that when I am speaking she will delay making eye contact with me or act in a manner which implies she is slightly ignoring me. Normally when people are speaking, you make eye contact and you engage in the conversation giving the person respectful attention. She doesn't do this, she deliberately makes me wait for her attention. Sometimes she will just find a distraction (with my brother) or her son (often) to interrupt what I am saying by talking over me. Yesterday her parents did the exact same thing. At one point I was talking and then suddenly they started talking and their voices drowned me out as if I wasn't even there. When they do allow me the floor to speak, I don't get positive vibes back, I feel like I shouldn't be speaking...that what I have to say isn't interesting. I don't get this reaction with other people, they are interested in me and it feels good. Sometimes conversation will seem like a competition about the topic, but her parents and her guarantee themselves that they get the most air time.

My sil just has to have the conversation drawn back to something relating to her, it can't be about someone else, at least not for long. So if we are talking about cakes, the conversation has to move to her wedding cake. Her parents will also do this on behalf of their daughter, moving the conversation back to something about her, and making you feel guilty for talking about anything that relates to you. But seriously, having all 3 of them acting coordinated like this at times, it's impossible to have a healthy, feel-good family get-together. I feel invisible and worthless when it happens. It's hard not to feel suffocated by the narcissism.

I noticed that her parents only really show this behaviour with our family. I see them interact differently in larger gatherings with their friends. This feeds into being able to keep up a false appearance to friends and outsiders, because the ones who do see the dark side are so few. How would you convince the majority that these people have a dark side, when they are well behaved to the majority. Plus, my sil uses FB quite effectively i'm sure to maintain this nice public persona. She is definitely doing some conscious PR work to maintain a nice and light public persona I think. Her parents are also very possessive of the grandson, they child care on the majority of days needed. In my family's presence, they perform very showy displays of affection towards the grandson and it almost feels like they try to prove he has a deeper bond with them than us. Really that just shows insecurity. I remember going over to her parents once for a party and sil had written 'Love you guys' (to her parents) on a chalkboard in the kitchen for everyone to see. I think that's just an example of how she was maintaining a false exterior at that time. But this is an impossible situation, dealing with essentially 3 people who adhere to bpd reality, plus my brother getting sucked in. There's nothing of the good life in this sickness, and you only get one life. With what I have seen of the dynamics, I honestly think my brother needs to get out.

[Jareth89]

Enabler Did you manage to get your wife into therapy or did you attempt, was it possible for you?

[Jareth89]

Enabler Did you manage to get your wife into therapy or did you attempt, was it possible for you?

How long did it take you to realise your wife had BPD? Did you find out after you had all your children? What rights do you think you will have to your children if you divorce?

[Enabler]

Hiya, sorry I’m on holiday at the mo so haven’t been keeping up to date with responses. Me and W went to couples counselling which was a complete disaster. At the time I had no clue about BPD and was pretty much covered in flees, I think the counsellor thought I was the one with a problem and my Ws issues were nicely tucked behind her mask. That ended, she then sought individual counselling and I desperately tried to make sense of what was going on. One of her friends sent her something on NPD and how narcissists lure their victims in in the same way child abuses do... anyway, I read this and thought “that’s how we got together but it was W who did that”. I went from NPD, started reading and then stumbled on BPD and BINGO. Perfect fit for the last 22yrs. I started individual therapy with a guy I had been seeing previously for my alleged “anger issues” and have been seeing him ever since. My W initially thought her T was awesome and then abruptly ceased T sessions after about a year concluding “they had come to a natural conclusion” although at this point we had seen a legal mediator for the divorce she wanted but she hadn’t petitioned or done any of the work necessary to actually achieve the divorce... I could see little in the way of natural conclusion other than maybe the T whom she did feel was on her side, was no longer validating her false reality.

She my return the T on her own one day, however it won’t be anything to do with me unless she outright asks me for help.

She simply cannot self reflect enough to see she is the maker of her own coffin.

Enabler

[Enabler]

How long did it take you to realise your wife had BPD? Did you find out after you had all your children? What rights do you think you will have to your children if you divorce?

She left in 2003 and again in 2007... our first was born aug 2008. I wrote her a letter in may 2007... I still have that letter. Had I have put 2 or 3 of the key words of that letter into google now i would get 1000 hits for BPD. I knew then... I didn’t know about BPD but I knew then it wasn’t just me as the problem. Instead we recycled and I made the same mistakes.

I have spent the last 3 years focusing on my kids. I document everything. I am currently enjoying a 2 week vacation with my kids. I will not accept anything less than every other weekend and my work prevents me from committing to more time. I wish my work was more transferable but it’s niche and results in a 3 hour round trip commute and long working day. I would have 100% custody if need be and pay for childcare.

At the moment she has her eyes on herself and her social/love life.

Enabler

[Jareth89]

I wish my work was more transferable but it’s niche and results in a 3 hour round trip commute and long working day. I would have 100% custody if need be and pay for childcare.
At the moment she has her eyes on herself and her social/love life.

Enabler

Enabler did you read any books on bpd and if so can you recommend? I thought it was really difficult for men to get 100% custody or even 50/50, but i'm not an expert by any means on that subject. In your case how would you guarantee you got more time with your children? What kind of evidence would assist?

[Pilpel]

With my sil I have noticed that when I am speaking she will delay making eye contact with me or act in a manner which implies she is slightly ignoring me. Normally when people are speaking, you make eye contact and you engage in the conversation giving the person respectful attention. She doesn't do this, she deliberately makes me wait for her attention.  ...
...   Her parents will also do this on behalf of their daughter, moving the conversation back to something about her, and making you feel guilty for talking about anything that relates to you. But seriously, having all 3 of them acting coordinated like this at times, it's impossible to have a healthy, feel-good family get-together. I feel invisible and worthless when it happens. It's hard not to feel suffocated by the narcissism.

Jareth, I started to respond to something you wrote a few weeks back, and never finished.  I can identify with things you write because I also have a NPD/BPD SIL.  I think she's a combination of both -- from what I've read a strong BPD trait is not wanting to be alone. And she hates being alone.  But she constantly devalues people around her, and expects people to respond to her a certain way and any other response and you're walking on eggshells.  She's very arrogant and thinks nothing about treating people with hostility to make herself feel better.  And recently I was watching some videos about Narcissistic supply, and I realized that a lot of her interactions are about getting supply.  Often times the supply that she wants from me is to offer me an "opportunity" to do things for her.  When I give even the most polite response that amounts to a "no," I can guarantee that she will respond with FOG, typically "poor me, my life is so hard" and "you and your family never do enough for me, you don't measure up."

About the eye contact, I've also had that experience with my SIL.  I've talked to her about that before, and she excused it as cultural.  But I know that it is a way of invalidating me.  When she is doing the talking, she is smiling, engaged, and she looks me in the eye.  But when I try to add something to the topic, she looks away --sometimes a full 180 degrees, looks at her hand, and sometimes looks annoyed.  And I know it isn't just me.  I've seen her kids on the phone, talking first to SIL/their mom, and then to their dad/my brother.  When they talked to their mom, they were stiff, stoic, emotionless, and only responded to questions she asked.  But when they talked to my brother two minutes later, they completely changed.  They were suddenly full of joy and jumping up and down.  It was really weird to see them change from one conversation to the other.   But I understood it, because that's how I am when I talk to my SIL.  You learn to say very little, to say just the minimum.  Because you know you'll be invalidated or risk walking on eggshells and getting entangled in a conflict if you say the wrong thing.  I gotta say your situation is another level of frustration since her parents are supporting her dysfunctional habits.  My SIL's parents have the same problem with her as everyone else, and they don't cater to it.  They are always in conflict with her because they don't walk on eggshells around her. 

Pilpel

[Jareth89]

Pilpel, yeah everything that you wrote makes sense and I can relate to it. The worst aspect of this scenario for me is that there are 3 people surrounding my brother with bpd traits. Her parents are not just enabling, they actually exhibit bpd behaviours too and they know how to reinforce my sil's bpd. It's just an incredible shock to realise that my brother is surrounded by this and that he is being sucked/brainwashed into their dysfunction and effectively turned into a completely different person. As his sister witnessing this, I have no other option but to intervene. Effectively a hostage situation and I'm the negotiator trying to make a connection to my brother who is distancing mentally from reality with every passing week. Honestly i've never encountered anything like this before. He is definitely intimidated by her and I feel there is a dark side that I have never seen before with her parents (especially her father). They know that I've observed her suddenly strange behaviour and they know i'm not going to sit back and lose my brother to their controlling, manipulating bpd world. I'm busy working out a plan about how to tell my brother that something is wrong with all 3 of them (!)...2 years ago there was no sign of any of this, at least from my angle. I dare say my brother has seen some red flags in the past and has chosen to ignore them or they were too subtle to be considered part of a disorder.

Yeah, my sil also will completely look away or distract herself when I am speaking sometimes. Her parents sometimes don't engage enthusiastically when I am talking. I did make it known last year that I wasn't going to put up with bizarre behaviour from either my brother or his wife and I get the impression this didn't go down too well with her parents even though I just stated the truth. Her parents know that what she did last year was wrong but didn't like me highlighting it. Something else I noticed is a feature called the 'bpd fake smile'. I've seen her father do this and his daughter. None of this was evident before last year. When sil dysregulated last year it seemed to give the green light to her parents to come out of the closet as well. Absolutely bizarre to witness. What I don't like is my brother being used as a tool by her to punish his FOO. So because I understand the dynamics better, I'm trying not to irritate her or her parents in any way. Otherwise I will know my brother will feel the heat and this in turn deteriorates his relationship with me and my parents.

Her parents childcare at my brother's house 2 days a week, so he is regularly exposed to them. I noticed that the bpd trait behaviours are worse when all 3 of them are together (parents/daughter). I don't know how well my sil will respond to boundaries being set...it's possible that she will use her parents to ensure my brother doesn't set down boundaries. First of all, I need to get information from him about exactly what is going on in that house and how her parents interact with him when they are there. Disturbingly, I've already seen him responding to them in an approval seeking manner, which of course puts them in a position of control. He is actually losing possession of his own mind, which is why I cannot wait too long. This is a very tricky situation for my family.

[Enabler]

Enabler did you read any books on bpd and if so can you recommend? I thought it was really difficult for men to get 100% custody or even 50/50, but i'm not an expert by any means on that subject. In your case how would you guarantee you got more time with your children? What kind of evidence would assist?

I wouldn’t likely get 100% custody of it was a straight out battle between me and her, this would only happen if she decided to flee and abandon the kids in which case I would need to sort morning and afternoon care for the kids, reasonably simple with an au pair. I left at 5am for work today, I simply couldn’t fairly entertain even 50/50 custody in reality unless I changed careers.

Time, time which I’ve created by not being proactive about the divorce process and using what I know about my W and BPD to my advantage has allowed me space to change and develop my relationship with the kids from that of ‘bad cop’ to neutral good parent. In this time I have vastly strengthened and changed the dynamic between myself and the kids building unbreakable bonds. I’ve also enhanced communication lines via text message such that I don’t have to rely on my w being sole communication conduit. In many respects I’ve taken her out of the equation, if I have a question I ask them directly or send them a text rather than deferring to W. Similarly if my mum wants to know what they want for their birthday for example she asks them directly or FaceTimes them. For me it’s about removing grey areas where my W’s passive aggressive behaviours can disrupt lines of communication.

Enabler

[Jareth89]

What is hard to accept with my sil's behaviour last year is that not only did she not congratulate me over positive information I found in medical literature, but she didn't appear happy at all that there was a possibility of cure. I can't understand why she reacted this way, even in the context of bpd...other than it's possible she has been using my difficulties against me because she needs ammunition to feed to my brother so that she can try to weaken my bond with him. Maybe she took a stance on my medical condition and now that the literature proves she is wrong she is not happy...because she can't tolerate being wrong. She's more concerned with her being proved wrong rather than someone being able to get well? It's insane.

So now, after putting me in emotional turmoil last year and trying to turn my brother against me during a time when I needed some support and encouragement, she now has an announcement to make of her own - she has been offered a promotion with her job! Despite everything that has gone on, my brother stated in front of my family 'L (wife), tell everyone what your news is...'   Does she honestly expect me to congratulate her?

I don't see how any of this crap can continue. The only problem is that she has received so much help from my family with renovating their house and she gets this done via my brother. She never asks herself. I don't see why we should continue to assist them when we get nothing back in return and all assistance from us is just expected. I feel like my family is being used, since her own parents are pretty useless with jobs that require practical/construction skills. How can any man allow his wife to mistreat his sister and talk badly about his FOO for no reason...it's incredibly unmanly and weak. Not to generalise, but forgiving the unforgivable seems to be a common theme among those men with bpd wives.

[Enabler]

I think it's important to understand attachment a little. Attachment is similar to it sounds... it's a bit like a rope that binds you to other people. When you're young you're closely attached to your parents, there's little in the way of slack and in fact a baby is believed to see themselves as the same entity as their mother... there ropes between you and your siblings and I'd imagine there would be plenty of ropes between a pair of twins. As you grow older these ropes get long and and thinner between parents and siblings, to a point where they may be non-existent. Instead new ropes are formed with peers and then in turn intimate partners.

Your brothers allegiance to his wife is not out of the ordinary. I can in essence empathise using my mother as an example. When I was forming a relationship with my W I "cut ties" with my Mum more and more and more and added ties to my then girlfriend. Similarly I reduced lines to my 2 sisters. This period was tough for my Mum, I no longer placed much significance on her opinion and instead of going to my parents with problems I sought answers for myself or with my wife, she felt like she was cut loose (rightly so) and surplus to requirement. I see your brother having done this, you still want close connections with him, he wants less connection with you and is making choices to add lines to his wife whilst severing ties with you. That's tough, especially if you don't have someone else to further attach to.

His Wife may not behave well, him and his wife may well be very self centred and ignorant to the fact they have taken advantage of your family... but him getting closer and adding more ties to her and less to you and your family is totally normal. Sadly, some men do feel that greater 'intimacy' can be achieved by allowing or even encouraging denigration of their own family especially if it's apparent there is a "reward" for this... his aim is to get closer to her (probably because he perceives this as the answer to 'less pain' from her), if this requires you collateral damage to his family then so be it... she is his present and future now.

You don't have to tolerate it. You can refuse to spend time with him and her... as can your parents. At the moment there are no consequences for the behaviours you don't like. FWIW, seeking praise for her promotion is not a bad thing is it... it's just that it's relative to the lack of attention he gave for other things. He may have expected you to praise her... it's your choice whether or not you reciprocated.

Enabler

[Jareth89]

Enabler, I do understand what you have written. However, as you say in normal healthy relationships the goal of either spouse is not to demonise their FOO. It's not normal for somoene's wife/husband to do this, it's a red flag. My brother has been with this woman for around 10 years and married for 5 yrs. My relationship with him has never been sabotaged by her (not obviously) until last year when she fully dysregulated for the first time. So while it's normal for people to loosen ties with their siblings/FOO when they get married, it's completely abnormal if your spouse makes it an occupation to sever naturally strong sibling ties and encourages the spouse to think badly of his FOO for no reason whatsoever. It's incredibly evil and cruel. So is generating lies about FOO to brainwash the spouse. It's nothing but pure evil. There's nothing virtuous about the woman and there's nothing sacred about the marriage. It resembles nothing of a normal marriage. Deliberate isolation/alienation of a spouse from his FOO is disgusting, there are many stories on here of mothers and sisters who have lost sons and brothers to mentally ill women, nothing to celebrate.

Regarding her job promotion...I'm a healthy minded person so naturally I congratulated her. Being of sound mind, I know what normal behaviour is. However the double standards are obvious. You can't expect someone to be congratulated on their good news if they didn't congratulate you on yours and not only that, carried out a nasty campaign to undermine your good efforts. She may be emotionally retarded but even children don't behave like this.

'FourWinds' has pretty much described my sil's influence on my brother in this link https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305795.0  The similarities in the stories are astounding.This is much more than the simple, normal healthy distancing that goes on in marriage, because it's bpd behaviour and it's an abusive relationship. I know what a healthy one looks like, my elder brother had a normal marriage...but he always maintained a loving connection to his siblings and FOO, his wife never saw his family as threat because she wasn't mentally ill and therefore didn't try to destroy those precious bonds. My sil's behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with the normal distancing that occurs after marriage.

[Enabler]

I'm a healthy minded person so naturally I congratulated her. Being of sound mind, I know what normal behaviour is. However the double standards are obvious. You can't expect someone to be congratulated on their good news if they didn't congratulate you on yours and not only that, carried out a nasty campaign to undermine your good efforts.

But you did congratulate her, so why would she think you can't. This is the crackers things about narcissism, narcissistic people are totally capable of expecting things when they don't deserve them... and because it's so unnatural for nons to be d!cks about stuff like this and give narcissists a taste of their own medicine, they LEARN to believe that their entitlement is reasonable. I was saying to my T last night, I literally couldn't be as rude to my W as she is to me. She has given me silent treatment on and off for 2.5 years... YES... YEARS.

I'm sorry but I think you need to see the bigger picture here. Lets agree that your SIL is a pwBPD, your brother may well have much much much bigger concerns in his life than YOU. It's a shame, it's a complete shocker in fact and he may well be 'weak', BUT, he may well be trying to fight for his life, he maybe trying to muddle around in the dark doing what works to make his life incrementally better on a day to day basis. He maybe utterly deluded about what are the true drivers of the chaos in his life... BUT, and this is a massive BUT... these are his choices. You can either empathise with the difficult circumstances he finds himself in (given the context of what you believe) OR, you can call him weak and keep on at him to blow up his whole micro-life on the basis of your non-professional findings. He doesn't yet believe in unicorns, you do... meet him where he is in the situation he is in and support him accordingly. That could well be to not mention his wife at all during conversations, it could be to back up and be distant so as not to cause more issues for him with his wife, it could be that you create a space where he can talk with you in a no-judgemental way without you judging him or his wife. There are literally hundreds of ways you can help and support him WHERE HE'S AT NOW, not where you want him to be.

Enabler

[Jareth89]

Enabler, nothing in my posts here are an inaccurate description of my brother or his wife, no matter how derogatory those descriptions are. I didn't have to care so much, but I spent a lot of my own time observing the dynamics and then researching online to find out what it was that I was seeing. This only started last year and she is now a different person. My brother has noticed she is different. Her parents are now both different. It's one thing to have his wife with this condition but to now have her parents appear with it as well - this is not a good situation for my brother from what I have witnessed. All this is a shock, because these people are not now who we thought they were. My brother didn't marry the woman he has now, so it could be argued this wasn't his choice. He didn't know she had this condition, neither did I.

As you have proven yourself, you don't need to be a professional to diagnose BPD traits...if you are close enough to it and see the patterns it's not that hard at all. I'd like to think I deserve some credit, not consternation, for having not turned a blind eye and instead cared enough to investigate. The criticisms of my brother are absolutely warranted and just factual, it doesn't mean that I am not here to be supportive. I'm not blowing up his micro-life...he's already living a deception. Yes I do plan to tell him at some point that his wife's behaviour (which we have all witnessed) is due to a personality disorder and that at least one of her parents have it as well. Her parents are a concern for me. I will work out how to do that safely, but that's my decision. I've already made him aware of some of his wife's behaviour so it's not as if the topic is new. About me 'judging' him or his wife. Well people are judged on their behaviours and why not. Just speaking the truth isn't casting judgement.

Enabler I do appreciate your knowledge about bpd, but it's unfair to suggest that my struggle with this situation is about my brother not paying me enough attention or that he has 'bigger concerns than me'. It's far more serious than that...his mental and physical wellbeing is at stake. I have witnessed the effects. It's his family who will be dealing with the aftermath. I actually haven't said anything at all to my brother yet, but I absolutely will give him the information he needs to understand his wife's behaviour and sure, I will be there if he wants to talk to me. Sure, I do not intend for him to get so far brainwashed that he can't see reality. I trust my instincts and tread carefully. My point is I want to help inform him, be a safe person he can talk to about what she is doing to him and help him reach a conclusion about what to do...but that does mean being realistic.

[Panda39]

Hi Jareth89,

I'm on these boards because my Partner has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share 2 daughters.  You remind me of me when I first arrived here.

I was frustrated/angry because I was trying to control all of them and protect my partner and his daughters and I couldn't.  My Partner wouldn't do what I thought he should do, his daughters couldn't see the problem their mother was, and their mother was stirring everything into a chaotic soup of crazy.

I came on the scene and wanted to fix everything and rescue everyone.  I was also very fixated on what the ex was doing.

One of the first things I learned here is that there is only one person I can truly control and that's me.  I can not make anyone do, say, think or believe anything they don't want to.  It took some time but I finally let go of those kinds of battles (Radical Acceptance) and once I let go and let everyone handle their own situations, and yes that included letting the girls be hurt by their mother - sometimes we just have to learn things the hard way...I did better and it removed pressure and conflict from my relationship with my Partner when I let go of trying to control.  I let him deal with his ex and his children, and I supported him when asked.

I totally hear that you love your brother and that you want to protect him and I also hear that there is more distance between you due to your SIL.  It is also true that someone with BPD could try and cut their spouses off from their Family of Origin (FOO).  We have had members that this has happened to.  It can happen because the pwBPD is jealous, it can happen because the person without BPD takes the road of least resistance or it can be because the parties involved want to hide the dysfunction in the relationship from their families.

My suggestion is to hang around here, learn what some of the tools are, what has worked for other members, and just be your brother's sister.  So if/when he opens up to you about what is going on, you can share the information you have learned without labeling his wife.  Going in and telling him what's wrong with his wife, his marriage, his behavior will likely not go over well and could distance him further.  Support him when asked, he is an adult and it maybe that like my Partner's daughters he will have to learn some things the hard way.  If you get a chance you might check out some of the posts on the relationship boards to get a peek at what he may be dealing with, these relationships are difficult and complicated.  If he is like my Partner, he takes his vows seriously, he is working on his marriage, and he loves his wife.  The thing is that his marriage is between his wife and him unless he chooses to share and ask for support.

I hear that you love him and miss him loud and clear  But I would just focus on your relationship with him, nurture that, show him you care and keep the lines of communication open.

Panda39

[Enabler]

It seems from your response that you have misinterpreted my post. Please read it again and read it in the context maybe of me telling you you had a severe mental illness. How would you feel about that? How would you react? He is fighting his own battles... from your reading you will know why pwBPD become or often get confused with Narcissistic personality disorder... fight or flight induces a very narrow and self centred view on reality... of his life is as traumatic as you say, he’s AS LIKELY to be in fight or flight mode as she is.

Enabler

[Jareth89]

It seems from your response that you have misinterpreted my post. Please read it again and read it in the context maybe of me telling you you had a severe mental illness. How would you feel about that? How would you react? He is fighting his own battles... from your reading you will know why pwBPD become or often get confused with Narcissistic personality disorder... fight or flight induces a very narrow and self centred view on reality... of his life is as traumatic as you say, he’s AS LIKELY to be in fight or flight mode as she is.

Enabler

I don't disagree with your comment above. I don't plan to tell her that she has the condition. I plan to give my brother information that he can explore on his own...i'm not going to sit on that information while time goes by. I have read accounts from men where they felt validated by what they read about their wife's condition, that the confusion stopped, they ceased blaming themselves, regained clarity etc. One account reads:

Once you get all this info, the reality of what to do with it takes a while to settle in. I now know what is occurring between me and the wife...I just haven't the guts to do anything about it just yet. But the bright side is my mind is at ease...i've been able to fully get control of my emotions and the 'why', along with the self-doubt has dissipated. Your son is a doctor, he may choose to deal with this on his own, but he now has the tools he needs to deal with it. How he deals with it will soon be revealed.

There is no way I am going to withhold giving my brother the information he needs to gain clarity about his situation. That is unethical to me, to observe his wife with this condition and not inform him that those behaviours are not random, they are attributed to a disorder. He can explore the information at his own pace...i'm merely pointing him in the right direction rather than leave him in a fog. There is risk attached to everything, I have to do what is right for my situation, judging by what I can see with my brother.

[Pilpel]

Jereth, If you have a relationship where you can share information about BPD and NPD with your brother, then you should do it.  To at least give him resources and tools.  I'm not clear about how close you are.  Are you able to talk honestly to him about the things you see?   Does he seem to understand.  Be careful about hoping for a particular outcome.  You can't rescue your brother.  You can't make your SIL see that she has a problem.  And you can't make her get help.  Particularly when her FOO is enabling and supporting her behavior.  The only person you can change is yourself.  It comes down to setting boundaries and deciding what you will and will not put up with. 

I found this information about BPD and NPD about 8 years ago and it was a revelation to know that my family was not alone, and that there are predictable dysfunctional ways that they manipulate and interact with people, and that there are names to put on the things that I was experiencing with my SIL.  And that there were so many other people who were going through similar experiences as my family.  This has been a really long journey for me.  And I'm happy to say that after over ten years struggling with this, trying to respond to hostility with kindness, anger with love and forgiveness, I recently established no contact with my SIL.  And at this point, I am totally at peace with my decision.  I prayed about it for a long time.  And I know it's the right thing to do for myself and my family. 

I think you probably have a similar experience as me.  I feel like both my mom and I have been special targets of my SIL's constant efforts to manipulate, devalue and project blame.  I don't know if it would give you any hope, but  I saw my brother go into this relationship as the perfect source of narcissistic supply and flying monkey. He was constantly serving her, even doing her bidding for the most petty servile task, taking her side when feelings got hurt over something stupid, tried to get the rest of us in line so as not to upset her.  But something happened, and now he's starting to speak truth to her lies.  And I am so proud of him.  Even though I've cut myself out of her life right now, seeing him stand up to her and speak truth has made me feel like I have my brother back.  And he's bolder and stronger in spirit than he was before.  I hope you that good ultimately comes out of your struggles with your SIL.   

[Jareth89]

Pilpel, I'm normally very close to my brother but he has been distancing mentally lately due to her influence over him. He's becoming irrationally negative towards my family and myself...not all the time but it's still there. He hasn't been to the house on his own for many months. Yes i'm able to talk to him about what I see, he has observed it for himself and is aware of the behaviour but buries it (denial)...however I have seen him extremely susceptible to brainwashing not only by her but her parents. It's clear that there is much more going on that we don't know about.

He was constantly serving her, even doing her bidding for the most petty servile task, taking her side when feelings got hurt over something stupid, tried to get the rest of us in line so as not to upset her

Yes my brother does all of this. When you cut her out did that mean you didn't see your brother anymore? How did he respond to you going NC with her? I don't know whether my brother feels he can stand up to her. She always feeds her problems back to her parents and no doubt they have influence over him. I wouldn't like to be in his shoes up against 3 people with bpd/npd traits. I think the situation is much darker than my family currently understands. I don't ever see how his marriage can work with 3 people like this.

Did you talk to your brother about her behaviour, did you give him any information about bpd/npd? Is your brother married to her, does he have children, how is the relationship between him/her now that he stands up to her? My aim is to get my brother to talk to me about the dynamics that are going on, so that we can realistically talk about this and where this is going - in a non-judgmentally way of course...

[Notwendy]

Jareth,

The moderators will usually remove posts that link to sites that haven't been known to be particularly helpful with dealing with pwBPD.

I know it's frustrating. However, identifying the pwBPD as the sole "villain" in the relationship isn't very effective. I'm not making excuses for their behavior. However it takes two.

I understand how you feel because it was hard to watch my father allow my mother to treat him this way, but he did. He was intelligent, self sufficient. Like you, I felt compelled to tell him the "truth" but looking back, the man could read, had access to the internet, and was well educated. He was perfectly capable of reading about BPD himself.

There was something about him that made him willingly get into this relationship and to stay in it. One might imagine he was hoodwinked or brainwashed, and over time the behaviors were so much of a pattern he might have been to some extent. But he was in the relationship by his own choice.

When he was elderly and ill, I called social services about possible elder abuse. But he was still technically mentally competent and as long as he was, they could not intervene. Their response to me: Your father is mentally competent to make his own bad decisions.

Yet, I too had to follow my own conscience and speak my mind to him. It didn't help and it probably backfired but I felt I had to do it. You sound quite certain that you feel this way too. So, in this case, if this is what you want to do, then you need to be true to yourself.

In retrospect, I wish I had been warned of the consequences to his relationship with me, and I think you have been informed. Would I have done the same if I knew? Since I feared for his safety being old and infirm, probably but I would not have taken the response so personally.

But keep in mind: your brother may appear to be under a spell as you say but he is a legal adult and is "competent to make his own bad decisions". Once you inform him, the rest is up to him.  People persist in situation because they are getting something out of them. He gets his emotional needs met by being her rescuer. He's there because somehow he wants to be.

[Notwendy]

To clarify- would I have said something- probably, but I would have done it differently had I understood BPD dynamics better.

The issues with my father were a continuum of my placing boundaries on BPD mom and in part a result of my taking their responses personally and reacting to them.

I also played quite nicely into the role of rescuer on the drama triangle, resulting in being perceived as persecutor to my BPD mother which was fuel for the interactions between them, because he stepped in as rescuer for her, a role he had frequently.

It was easy to see my mother as the cause of the problem. It took me longer to see that my father had a role in the situation, a role he got something out of - it met some emotional need for him and that made their bond stronger than his bond with anyone else- stronger than his bond with his parents, his siblings, and me.

[Skip]

I have been following your story for a while... and I get your frustration. I think we all do.  

Here is the thing we tell spurned lovers about helping their mentally ill partner once the relationship has broken down... you can't support someone from that position.  Research has shown that the #1 indicator of recovery is a trusted confident - someone with unconditional love and who is benevolently strong (not a doormat).

Trust is everything.

Most of what you are doing, as well intentioned as it may be, is creating division. Any one will fight that by trying to isolate the person causing he division - a person with BPD will do that times 10.  So, in effect, you are in a cycle with her where you are both making it worse.  Neither of you care what befalls the other, so this is the opposite of "family" or  "unconditional love and benevolent strength".

Would you consider backing down and just accepting her as she is... set your eyes on slowly building some level of relationship wit her over the next few years... knowing you would have to do more than her/be bigger to accomplish that?

[Jareth89]

Here is the thing we tell spurned lovers about helping their mentally ill partner once the relationship has broken down... you can't support someone from that position.  Research has shown that the #1 indicator of recovery is a trusted confident - someone with unconditional love and who is benevolently strong (not a doormat).

Trust is everything.

Most of what you are doing, as well intentioned as it may be, is creating division. Any one will fight that by trying to isolate the person causing he division - a person with BPD will do that times 10.  So, in effect, you are in a cycle with her where you are both making it worse.  Neither of you care what befalls the other, so this is the opposite of "family" or  "unconditional love and benevolent strength".

Would you consider backing down and just accepting her as she is... set your eyes on slowly building some level of relationship wit her over the next few years... knowing you would have to do more than her/be bigger to accomplish that?

I haven't actually done anything yet, it's all theory about what to do. I don't know what triggered her to dysregulate last year. I started to see small cracks between her and my brother in January when I saw her deliver a fake divorce threat, then I remember showing some mild disapproval over something that happened and it's possible she took that badly. Then I was busy with medical literature and didn't visit their house for many weeks (though they visited me/parents), she may have taken this as me abandoning her. My brother was busy doing renovation work on the house and asked her for some space on some weekends to not be disturbed...likely saw it as abandonment. It just escalated from there. I can't mind read and I didn't know she had bpd traits at that point. I did eventually tell both of them off for their bad behaviour towards me - didn't know she was pwBPD so I imagine that didn't go down well. Since then I have made kind gestures/gifts to just to wipe the slate clean, to show no hard feelings.

I don't know how she feels about my relationship with my brother. However, something positive must be in the air because she is letting him off the leash to come visit me on his own with son next week. I do accept her for who she is, but what I don't accept is any abuse or psychological warfare on my brother which occurs in the absence of any triggers by me. My brother would benefit greatly from being giving knowledge of her condition so that he can know how to deal with it better, possibly talk to me about it and generally reduce the confusion, self-blame and stress levels. Also for the sake of his son...and also to protect himself by becoming more aware of the tendency to manipulate, potential lie telling etc. To know that these behaviours are part of a disorder, for his own mental clarity. Do you imagine how confused I was last year, observing behaviours not knowing why? Armed with knowledge, I'm much more comfortable, but I also learned how these men are suffering behind closed doors and what I see is only a fraction of what is really going on. So that increased my anxiety.

I'm a safe person to talk to and my aim is to encourage my brother to open up to me so that I can help him with knowledge and make sure he is ok. I'm not going to tell him what to do with his marriage, but he needs someone to talk to if he is struggling or if things get worse. From my own observations, he is not fully aware of what is being done to him psychologically...and that is dangerous. I already told him he is being manipulated and he did have a realisation when I said that. Someone needed to say it. Every situation is different but I know what I have seen - the dynamics between his wife, himself and her parents.

Research has shown that the #1 indicator of recovery is a trusted confident - someone with unconditional love and benevolently strong (not a doormat)

Up until last year, I was that person. I was treated very badly last year and suffered for it... it was bad timing for me. I'm willing to help her and i'm already restoring relations (mostly to take the heat off my brother, she punishes me by punishing him). What I can't tolerate is psychological warfare against my brother by her or her parents in the absence of any 'wrongdoing' from me. I don't fully know what the intent is yet, so i'm just observing and hoping to get more open communication from my brother. I can't tolerate any behaviour that harms my brother's mental/physical wellbeing, it's my family who will have to pick up the pieces. My boundaries include not harming my blood relations.

I just wanted to say that I haven't created any division. She is the only one dividing. I did nothing.

[Jareth89]

Skip, I think the point is I need to find out who she really is now, and her parents...how they intend to operate from now on and how they intend to treat my brother (which doesn't look good currently) and my family. Like I said, my feeling is that the situation is much darker than we currently realise. All secrets will be uncovered!

Pilpel i'd be interested to hear from you regarding my questions a couple of posts back.

[Harri]

This thread is locked and continues here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338966.0

Thank you