15yo daughter with many challenging behaviors. uBPDx = mom...

[Parents! Get help here!]

I think it's my first time posting on this sub.  Most of my recent posts have been about my uBPDx on other subs. 

I'm not certain that D15 has BPD.  It's difficult to see the difference between "standard" 15yo daughter behaviors - e.g., general moodiness, entitlement, social anxiety, and various forms of asserting independence, often with maximum attitude...  vs. possible BPD behavior... vs. possible influence or even emulation of uBPDx (mom)... vs. acting out due to alienation. 

As Warshak writes frequently in Divorce Poison - "take action" so I'm trying to get out of my own head on this.

Yesterday, there was an episode - relatively innocuous, but possibly illustrative:   D15 asked to stop by mom's house for something en route to school. Sure, no problem. She asserted, "we need to go extra early because I don't want to be late, we need 15 minutes" - I didn't challenge or ask for info, instead I suggested that we go immediately, instead of en route later.  She agreed, she checked with mom, all good.

She was in and out of mom's house in < 3 mins.

When she got back in the car (I waited in the car), she immediate shouted "we need to go now!  I don't want to be late!"  - at this point, we had more than hour to get to school before the bell, with school only 3 minutes away. Anxiety? Something else?

I was surprised, but I'm getting acclimated to caught off guard by D15's outbursts. I said "no problem, we'll be on time" and started to drive.

D15 then unloaded a bunch of accusations, screaming "we're never on time.  we're always late.  D8 and D13 are always late, too."   

This is simply false.  I could go into exhaustive detail, but the fact is that there is not a single tardy report for any of my three kids during my parenting time.  Or on uBPDx's time, either - we have weekly reports from school, and uBPDx and I are cc:d on everything (although I gather that getting out of the house and to drop offs is a very different routine at that house, and could be a source of anxiety for D15).

I pick my battles and follow the golden ratio, but this moment felt like it called for a rational voice, or at least enforcing a boundary and not accepting false statements - so I simply and directly said:  "D15, we've never been late, and we're not going to be late today. I know you like to get to school early, and we are almost always one of the first cars in the parking lot. Is there something going on today that we need to be extra early for?  Either way, I'll make sure we're on time."

No response.  When we pulled into the driveway at my house a moment later, D15 got out, slammed the car door shut in a rage (a first), proceeded into the house and stomped loudly to her room, and slammed her door.

I'm apprehensive about this because the irrational behavior makes me a lot like I felt when living with her mom...

It also feels like it may be tied into alienation behaviors that have been building for some time, in which D15 simply rejects me at every level.  She has repeatedly stated that she doesn't want to be at my house anymore, but uBPDx continues to follow the parenting plan - presumably to avoid legal recourse - even as uBPDx sends various false accusations of her own - "there's no toothpaste at your house" and "your daughter doesn't have a blanket" are the softballs, "monitoring D15's phone is abusive" is more concerning - although we have a written device agreement with all our kids that states mom and dad have passwords and can check their devices...  sorry for the tangent, but the stream of accusations from uBPDx is never ending, and may be relevant to "we're always late" - even though we're not.

Two of D15's prior therapists were semi-sabotaged by uBPDx.  I finally identified a new one (fingers crossed), and D15 has only met with her twice.  I may reach out on this, as we're just getting acquainted.  uBPDx agreed to let D15 start with this therapist (joint decision making...), and then accused me of attempting manipulate everyone in the process, so I proceed with maximum caution about how and when to engage the therapist who may, in fact, be manipulated by uBPDx...  accusations are confessions, etc.

So the purpose of my post:  How to best respond to an irrational outburst from D15?

Was something inducing anxiety?
Is her thinking actually disordered in some way?
Was it related to an ongoing alienation campaign?
Some combination of the above?

D15 is my oldest and so consistently presents the new parenting challenges.  I'm always in learning mode.  So far, D13 and D8 are happy with me and at my house, and have learned to avoid D15 when she's on the warpath - with me or anyone else.
 
I wish I knew how to respond in the moment - for everyone's benefit. 

In my reading on Parental Alienation, even here, many articles include "and how to respond" or "what do do" in the headings - but consistently stop short of providing actual suggestions other than "engage the right legal resources". 

Questions:

Are there success stories with PA interventions (that are not on youtube or behind a paywall  )?
Why does so much BPD literature / media have click bait headlines?
Any thoughts about how to respond to D15 in a positive / productive way when she is acting out?
Any thoughts about how to focus engagement with D15's therapist? 
Any general parenting advice for a single dad of 3 girls, attempting to parallel parent with uBPDx?

Three years ago, when my marriage was unwinding, I just wanted to get through the holidays for the kids. Now I'm looking further down the road - but I don't want my kids to end up with a bunch conflicted holiday memories...  I'd really like to develop skills to make the end of the year a positive thing, along with whatever comes in the new year. 

Thanks for reading.

[EyesUp]

I think it's my first time posting on this sub.  Most of my recent posts have been about my uBPDx on other subs. 

I'm not certain that D15 has BPD.  It's difficult to see the difference between "standard" 15yo daughter behaviors - e.g., general moodiness, entitlement, social anxiety, and various forms of asserting independence, often with maximum attitude...  vs. possible BPD behavior... vs. possible influence or even emulation of uBPDx (mom)... vs. acting out due to alienation. 

As Warshak writes frequently in Divorce Poison - "take action" so I'm trying to get out of my own head on this.

Yesterday, there was an episode - relatively innocuous, but possibly illustrative:   D15 asked to stop by mom's house for something en route to school. Sure, no problem. She asserted, "we need to go extra early because I don't want to be late, we need 15 minutes" - I didn't challenge or ask for info, instead I suggested that we go immediately, instead of en route later.  She agreed, she checked with mom, all good.

She was in and out of mom's house in < 3 mins.

When she got back in the car (I waited in the car), she immediate shouted "we need to go now!  I don't want to be late!"  - at this point, we had more than hour to get to school before the bell, with school only 3 minutes away. Anxiety? Something else?

I was surprised, but I'm getting acclimated to caught off guard by D15's outbursts. I said "no problem, we'll be on time" and started to drive.

D15 then unloaded a bunch of accusations, screaming "we're never on time.  we're always late.  D8 and D13 are always late, too."   

This is simply false.  I could go into exhaustive detail, but the fact is that there is not a single tardy report for any of my three kids during my parenting time.  Or on uBPDx's time, either - we have weekly reports from school, and uBPDx and I are cc:d on everything (although I gather that getting out of the house and to drop offs is a very different routine at that house, and could be a source of anxiety for D15).

I pick my battles and follow the golden ratio, but this moment felt like it called for a rational voice, or at least enforcing a boundary and not accepting false statements - so I simply and directly said:  "D15, we've never been late, and we're not going to be late today. I know you like to get to school early, and we are almost always one of the first cars in the parking lot. Is there something going on today that we need to be extra early for?  Either way, I'll make sure we're on time."

No response.  When we pulled into the driveway at my house a moment later, D15 got out, slammed the car door shut in a rage (a first), proceeded into the house and stomped loudly to her room, and slammed her door.

I'm apprehensive about this because the irrational behavior makes me a lot like I felt when living with her mom...

It also feels like it may be tied into alienation behaviors that have been building for some time, in which D15 simply rejects me at every level.  She has repeatedly stated that she doesn't want to be at my house anymore, but uBPDx continues to follow the parenting plan - presumably to avoid legal recourse - even as uBPDx sends various false accusations of her own - "there's no toothpaste at your house" and "your daughter doesn't have a blanket" are the softballs, "monitoring D15's phone is abusive" is more concerning - although we have a written device agreement with all our kids that states mom and dad have passwords and can check their devices...  sorry for the tangent, but the stream of accusations from uBPDx is never ending, and may be relevant to "we're always late" - even though we're not.

Two of D15's prior therapists were semi-sabotaged by uBPDx.  I finally identified a new one (fingers crossed), and D15 has only met with her twice.  I may reach out on this, as we're just getting acquainted.  uBPDx agreed to let D15 start with this therapist (joint decision making...), and then accused me of attempting manipulate everyone in the process, so I proceed with maximum caution about how and when to engage the therapist who may, in fact, be manipulated by uBPDx...  accusations are confessions, etc.

So the purpose of my post:  How to best respond to an irrational outburst from D15?

Was something inducing anxiety?
Is her thinking actually disordered in some way?
Was it related to an ongoing alienation campaign?
Some combination of the above?

D15 is my oldest and so consistently presents the new parenting challenges.  I'm always in learning mode.  So far, D13 and D8 are happy with me and at my house, and have learned to avoid D15 when she's on the warpath - with me or anyone else.
 
I wish I knew how to respond in the moment - for everyone's benefit. 

In my reading on Parental Alienation, even here, many articles include "and how to respond" or "what do do" in the headings - but consistently stop short of providing actual suggestions other than "engage the right legal resources". 

Questions:

Are there success stories with PA interventions (that are not on youtube or behind a paywall  )?
Why does so much BPD literature / media have click bait headlines?
Any thoughts about how to respond to D15 in a positive / productive way when she is acting out?
Any thoughts about how to focus engagement with D15's therapist? 
Any general parenting advice for a single dad of 3 girls, attempting to parallel parent with uBPDx?

Three years ago, when my marriage was unwinding, I just wanted to get through the holidays for the kids. Now I'm looking further down the road - but I don't want my kids to end up with a bunch conflicted holiday memories...  I'd really like to develop skills to make the end of the year a positive thing, along with whatever comes in the new year. 

Thanks for reading.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[kells76]

Hey EyesUp;

It's hard untangling how much "stuff" is normal 15YO stuff, how much might be our teen's own disordered traits/behaviors, and how much comes from growing up in a family system permeated with BPD.

I can say that 15 was the hardest year we had with SD17.5 (she is much more rational now!) and 15 is shaping up to be our hardest year with SD15.5 so far. I remember dealing with a major eating disorder at 15, and I think my younger sister started to get help for suicidality at 15. So a lot of anecdotal evidence is pointing to 15 being a challenging age.

You may have already heard about the Bates/Ames developmental equilibrium model. I don't know if it is still considered cutting edge, but it does make sense of how certain ages, or age combinations for when you have >1 child, seem easier to parent than others. I googled "equilibrium and disequilibrium in development stages" and looked at the images and found an explainer link to The Center for Parenting Education. (I do not know much about or have a connection with this site; the one page I looked at seems reputable in that it references published work).

I remember my favorite age combo to stepparent was 10 & 12. Totally fun, and, looking at the equilibrium theory, it makes a lot of sense.

SD15 right now is pulling away from H pretty strongly -- often trying to schedule stuff with her friends to fill the times we're supposed to be together. There's also gender/identity/peer stuff going on. She's not very flexible or willing to compromise -- but again, that can change day by day. She did ask a couple weeks ago if she could hang out with friends during our weekend together, and asked for a ride, and asked if we could pick up one friend, and then when H said that was okay as long as she was done by 5pm, she was cooperative and didn't push to hang out past then. And she will still snuggle with him on the couch when they watch "their show" together. But it's so all over the map and unpredictable.

Like you said, irrational behavior, which circles back to our question: how much of this is typical 15YO behavior, how much might be disorder developing, and how much is learned from Mom.

How long does it seem to take her to get back to a baseline after an outburst like yesterday's?

To touch on your question here:

Any thoughts about how to focus engagement with D15's therapist?

one thought could be to be honest about your fears without (yet) bringing up Mom's issues: "T, this is my first time parenting a 15 year old, and to be honest I feel afraid that what I see might not be just typical teen behaviors, but something more disordered -- I honestly don't know, and it'd mean a lot to me to hear your perspective over time and to get feedback from you about how I can most healthily respond to her in situations like yesterday."

That may help you get through the near future, where the focus is on appropriate parenting responses to specific behaviors. Longer term I'd think that the T would notice that you never talk about "well my kids' mom and I discussed it and we think we should try XYZ" -- it's all about you and your relationship to your kids, and you don't mention working together with their mom.

Any thoughts about how to respond to D15 in a positive / productive way when she is acting out?

I'm guessing you didn't raise your voice, so that's good. I think I would've wanted to respond the same way you did to yesterday's acting out. SD15 also sometimes does not tell us about plans she has, then is upset when we don't want to change our preexisting plans to accommodate her secret plans. I wonder if self-centeredness and ingratitude are characteristic of age 15 -- I remember SD17 being really ungrateful at 15.

It's probably smart to "toss out there" one calm, firm statement, and then not to engage in any more debate/discussion/argument while she's wound up (without, of course, saying stuff like "you're too angry for us to talk, so I'm going to wait until you're calm").

Sometimes when the kids are that far gone, firmness vs empathy is all you can do. SD17 especially doesn't always respond well to empathy/support when she's wound up. She kind of expects/wants pushback and if I step into an interaction with "I see where you're coming from, we're on the same page", she can get really reactive. Is your D15 like that -- better response to firmness when she's wound up?

Did D15 end up coming back out of her room with enough time to get to school on time?

[EyesUp]

Hey Kells,

D15 was at school early, as usual.  Got out of the car, said goodbye to her sister in the back, and slammed the door one more time for good measure...  When I picked her up later, she acted like nothing had happened.

Baseline is presently hard to describe. It's been a while since I've perceive anything I'd describe as warmth or affection. Not that I expect it, however we used to say "I love you" and always hugged in the morning and at bedtime, and it's been a while... she moved through the kitchen in the morning like a ghost, and goes to bed without comment. I told her that I miss fist-bumps, but that I understand that she's growing up and no matter what, I'll always be here, always love her, etc.  To which I get either nothing, or maybe an eyeroll.

In regard to the therapist - since there's a lot of evidence of PA, I asked a bunch of qualification questions on the way in which led to a candid discussion about the family dynamics.  So the therapist is well aware of my POV.  I suspect that uBPDx/mom also provided her own download, and the therapist is probably somewhere in the middle - focused on D15 - who is presently avoidant/increasingly fearful of me - after 2+ years (actually, more) of parentification, adultification, along with highly disparaging comments against me from her mom. 

I posted last summer about mom's texts with D15 in which she often states "he's an asshole" or "he has no idea how to be a parent" while encouraging D15 to report on any and every little thing, to the point that D15 appears to make stuff up to satisfy her mom.  D15 has had at least two panic attacks - once when the power went out and she wanted to go to her mom's, and another time when D8 would not let D15 braid her hair, when uBPDx/mom told her to do it - also at my house. It's clear that D15 has a dependency, which her mom has cultivated, and some kind of unhealthy bond.

For some time, D15 responded well to the message that she has two parents who love her, and it's ok to have two parents.  But since the summer, she's pulled away and stated "your house doesn't feel like a home" (I kept the marital residence) and "I only want to be at mom's where I'm comfortable".  To which I respond, "I hear you, and I'm really sorry you feel that way" and "I want to work on making this house a more comfortable place for you". 

Which ultimately makes me feel like I traded walking on eggshells with my X for walking on eggshells with D15.

I make a point to engage her in front of her sisters on lots of things.  "Hey D15, do you want anything from the store?" or "Any special requests for dinner?" - I don't want to leave any room for perception that I don't talk to her, don't engage her, don't consider her feelings - which seem to be some of the themes in her mind re:  why she doesn't want to be at my house.

Do you think I made a mistake by opening up early with D15's T?  I've not heard from the T after two sessions.  Not sure what to make of that.

[kells76]

Do you think I made a mistake by opening up early with D15's T?  I've not heard from the T after two sessions.  Not sure what to make of that.

Not necessarily -- I get that it's hard to know when those doors of opportunity will open again, so sometimes you just "take the shot" when you can.

You could think about playing it cool for a bit and seeing if the T reaches out in the next few weeks. Create an opportunity for the T to approach you.

Was the T more in touch with you right at the start? That could be expected when setting things up.

Do you manage scheduling?

And in your US state, are parents expected to be involved in a minor's counseling?

It might not be anything, it might just be how the T works -- though if you give it a couple weeks and there's still no reply, you could consider "touching base before the holidays" or something. As long as your D15 is still going that seems like the most important thing.

[EyesUp]

Hey Kells.

I had one call with the T to make introductions and see if there's a fit.  I was billed for the session, actually.  Based on the discussion, I made an intro for uBPDx to T as we have joint decision making.  uBPDx sat on it for close to a month, but finally connected and agreed to proceed.  Worth noting that T did not confirm D15's appointment to me and uBPDx, but only to uBPDx - I found out about it by sending them both an email asking if a schedule was set, T then responded to both of us.  If T is paying attention, she might catch of whiff of uBPDs' unilateral communication - while mine has been inclusive and collaborative following the first call.

I've received zero comments from T following ~2 appointments that I'm aware of.  Not auspicious...

I could reach out 1:1 this week, as the kids with be with their mom for Thanksgiving - and the suggestion to touch base with holidays in mind is a good one - thanks.

In the meantime, D15 has packed her bags to transition tonight, although the agreed schedule is for transition to occur on Monday at school dropoff.  She opened up a bit today - in anger - to express a few things that she cites as why she hates me.  Part of it follows the PA script:  "You're embarrassing" and "I don't like it here" - why?  Can't say.  But then, sensing a chance to probe a bit more, I said, "ok, I hear you - can you help me understand better what's happened?"

She pulled up a text on her phone from 2019 when she was 11 and D13 was 9 - she sent me a message saying "you're so mean" - this was actually before she had a phone, but did have an iPod touch with imessage.  She said she sent the message because I yelled at D13.  She could not say what it was about, but cites this as an example of why she's not comfortable with me.  

I'll dig into my journal and see if I can piece it together.

In the meantime, I need to respond to another request/demand to transition to mom early.  Capitulating without a good reason is a losing proposition - and I suspect that uBPDx may be attempting to establish some change of circumstances by showing that 1/3 kids spends more than 50% of nights at her house.  And simply refusing to change without providing some comment (which will be repeated to mom) is potentially reinforcing D15's narrative that I don't care about her / don't listen to her / etc.

Lately I've come across a few PA "experts" that suggest at least attempting to reach out to the adversarial parent, and potentially that parent's family.  The flip side of this is showing your hand and giving a high conflict parent fuel for fire.

I'm really jammed about what to do here, esp. because I don't have infinite resources to dive into a protracted legal battle, and by the time anything happened D15 would likely age out of court jurisdiction anyway.

I need to figure out how to do this myself - with uBPDx and with D15. I'm loathe to allow D15's behavior to influence D13 and D8, too.

[beatricex]

Hi Eyesup,
I am not in your situation and have not raised kids.  I am glad you're researching Parental Alienation and you sound like a very good guy, a great father.  I think checking a 15 year old's phone sounds like a really good idea - who knows what they can get into these days.

I have read a lot about Grandparent Alienation and have thought about this quite a bit in fact, in the past 3.5 years since one of my husband's adult daughters has cut us out of her life.  Her kids are very young.  We only saw the youngest once, right after birth.

The other stepdaughter hasn't cut us off we can still pick up her kids, but she's not talking to either one of us.  She was very close with her Dad before she decided to start a family war.  We fretted about her boys, they're 10 and 11.5 and we were really worried about her alienated us from them.  She already does the Parental Alienation thing with her ex husband, which I strongly dislike.

I know there are not very many links about this and I agree it's frustrating.  It's a difficult subject to navigate for sure. 

Besides searching the internet for articles which I found to be sparce, I did also enroll me and my husband in Family Connections.  You have to specify who the BPD person in your life is, in your case you'd mention it's your ex who you're co-parenting with.  Just a suspicion, but I'd bet you'd get some pretty good seasoned advice from those folks. 

Hang in there, and keep posting here if you need to.

When I first read your outburst story, and needing to goto Mom's for 15 minutes it popped into my head "maybe she's on her period?"  If this is new for her it's pretty scary and weird if that's what she's going through and might explain the moodiness and "you're mean Dad" comments.  She may just naturally be leaning towards her Mom at this moment, just for that reason.  Hormones wreak havoc on teenage girls.  I myself remember vividly that it was sometimes pretty horrible.
 
b

[EyesUp]

Thanks, Beatrice.

I'll take a look at Family Connections.

BTW, good thought re: D15's period.  Yes, could coincide with elevated emotions - although she has supplies at my house and doesn't need to go elsewhere.

[kells76]

In the meantime, D15 has packed her bags to transition tonight, although the agreed schedule is for transition to occur on Monday at school dropoff.  She opened up a bit today - in anger - to express a few things that she cites as why she hates me.  Part of it follows the PA script:  "You're embarrassing" and "I don't like it here" - why?  Can't say.  But then, sensing a chance to probe a bit more, I said, "ok, I hear you - can you help me understand better what's happened?"

What ended up happening; were you able to stick to the schedule?

She pulled up a text on her phone from 2019 when she was 11 and D13 was 9 - she sent me a message saying "you're so mean" - this was actually before she had a phone, but did have an iPod touch with imessage.  She said she sent the message because I yelled at D13.  She could not say what it was about, but cites this as an example of why she's not comfortable with me. 

I'll dig into my journal and see if I can piece it together.

I wonder what would happen if there was some way to "lean into" this, to encourage her to have no secrets from the T, to share all of that with the T, because it is important for the T to know what D15 thinks.

Inviting D15 to tell the T "how bad and embarrassing" you are may show the T the same "decompensating" limit that you see D15 hit, where when you invite her to share more or explain, there's nothing there.

It might also create a good learning opportunity for the T. When you check in, you can share that you encouraged D15 to disclose her negative perceptions/experiences of you with the T, and you'd like the T's help and perspective, because you'd like to make some repairs with D15 but are a little stuck because it isn't clear exactly what you did, and you'd like to know.

Something to shine light on the dynamic that D15 holds on to content-less "incidents" of "proof" about how bad you are, but falls apart when those are pushed at.

Ultimately, none of this, though, should be about having a "gotcha" moment with her -- it should be about finding a path forward for both of you to make repairs with each other.

[EyesUp]

I've avoided discussing the T with D15 for fear that her mom will weaponize it somehow. uBPDx/mom has already accused me of manipulating the T - this was before she spoke with and subsequently approved the T.  I perceived this as uBPDx's attempt to gain some control of the situation, somehow and didn't think much more of it.  However I sense that if I discuss the T with D15, there's a chance that D15 will reject the T.  I'm not sure if D15 even knows that I located the T and got the ball rolling...   I did discuss her last two Ts on occassion, but only high level.

That said, as I digest D15's comment about an old text message, there are a few things that begin to line up:

D15 is a bit of a protector - for her mom, her sister...
She's also always been very self-sufficient (in some ways), and generally didn't have behavior issues as a kid - other than anxiety (diagnosed, semi-treated, never medicated).
 
D13, on the other hand, has an ADHD diagnosis. She's a great kid, but before the diagnosis I know that there were times where I raised my voice to get her attention in various situations.  And there were times when she was very young when she'd throw herself on the floor, kicking and screaming, if something wasn't just right - e.g., food (too hot!), or clothing (too bunchy!).  With the diagnosis and medication and a few years, a lot has changed - and it's been forever since I raised my voice to any of my kids.

There were a few times when I picked up D13, kicking and screaming, to bring her into the living room to calm down or to try a "time out" - so the rest of the family could eat in peace for a minute.  This was when she was much younger, e.g., 6-7-8.  But D15, also much younger, was probably worried that she might get picked up and hauled off to the other room, too.  Never happened, actually - we just didn't have those types of behavior issues with D15.

I can see how D15 at a younger age, may have been scared when I'd raise my voice to her sister ("will that happen to me?"), esp because there was some inconsistency in how I've treated my kids - I don't think I raised my voice to D15 much, if at all, but it did happen sometimes with D13 when she was younger and often hard to reach. 

They are different people with different personalities, and I've learned a lot on the job from #1 to #3 (who seems to be the most well adjusted of the three, classic 3rd kid).

I don't think I've ever been a screamer or a persistently angry dad, but I can see how D15, generally anxious, might develop a concern about one or both of her parents disciplined - or merely communicated - with her younger sister in more overt ways, esp before we had the diagnosis and some regulation via medication.

For avoidance of doubt, there were never any spankings or anything like that with any of my kids.  Not sure if I'll raise any of this with D15's T...  just food for thought at the moment.

I do feel that it could be good to explore D15's anxiety, and how to best support her - and how to promote her own ability to work through moments when she's feeling it.  I think her recent Ts have largely focused on social and emotional issues without necessarily working on underlying behavioral/developmental dynamics...

[livednlearned]

Hi EyesUp,

I'm kind of coming out of our stretch with SD26 so some of this is from back in the day when she had a psychotic break at 16 (divorce, gender identity stuff).

A book I found helpful to try and sort out whether something is normal-range adolescence or more severe like BPD is Blaise Aguirre's Borderline in Adolescence.

He has a chapter in his book to help parents make sense of the difference between BPD and regular adolescence that might be helpful, and he has some material on youtube.

What might happen if you circle back and do a "repair and recover" attempt with her? With my kid (S22, who is estranged from his BPD father) when I do repair/recover he is very responsive. When H does the same with his three kids (SS24, SD26, SD29) the response varies. SS24 was very alienated and has almost a separate reality. SD26 responds in strange ways to repair/recover. She most certainly has BPD. Repair/recover attempts seem to only matter in terms of whether the response is providing sufficient attention, negative or positive is besides the point. SD29 is like S22, she is very responsive to repair/recover.

"Hey D15, the other day you were upset about being late for school. Can we talk about what you were feeling? Help me understand. I want to know if you felt supported. If not, what could I have done different?" In your words 

One positive to this is that stuff I thought was going to be permanent with S22 is not there much, if at all. He has internalized some of the actions I've taken with him and models them back to me. Some of the things I've said he now says. He was medicalized in his teens so didn't have a typical high school experience but I was concerned he had PD traits or adjacent.

It could be that our kids (BPD parents as role models) have a tougher time self-regulating and in the pressure cooker period leading up to high school and into young adulthood, they struggle more to manage serious challenges, and that steam sprays in our faces more than, say, kids who might come from homes with adjusted dynamics. 

[beatricex]

Hi again EyesUp,
I read your thread again after posting my own long rant about my adult stepdaughter and her Parental Alienation antics with her ex husband, which my husband and I took a hard stance against about 3 years ago.  Basically, my husband made a video for his adult kids (both mothers) that said we're not going to Hate Who They Hate anymore (hating on the ex husband's family is the main hobby, it consumes her).  We said this is bad for the grandkids and we know we've done it in the past too, but we're not going to do it anymore.

Since then, I will say my husband and I are finding it extremely difficult to "Live Ones Values."  So much drama ensued, it was extremely difficult to hold any ground.

You're also facing tough decisions at a crucial time in your oldest teenage daughter's life.  I hear you saying "I need to get out of my own head...I have to take ACTION!" (I think like this to).  And, let's face it, she is pulling away from you, and it's very likely at least in part due to sabotage on the part of your BPD ex.  Parental Alienation is par for the course with a BPD ex.  I think they wrote that playbook.

What to do about it?  Should you just find a support group?  Post here?  These are all great questions.  Is there a strategy with the T?  Can you just confront this head on with your child?  I hear your frustration.  Just wanted you to know that.

b

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EyesUp]

@livenlearned - I will work on the repair and recover idea - thank you.

@beatricex - appreciate the open-ended support.

It does feel like the pace of conflict is quickening.  During my marriage, I was good at avoiding so much and so now I wonder if my perception of conflict is changing, or if the conflict is, in fact, increasing.  Here's what's on my plate at the moment:

D15's T ignored an email request to touch base for a week.  I sent a follow up and finally got a response - we will speak next Monday.  It's the first 1:1 communication since D15 started.  In my experience, this isn't normal - prior Ts communicated early and often.  My agenda for the call is to ask how to best support D15, especially through the holidays - now that there have been at least 2-3 sessions, I hope the T can provide some insight.

Yesterday was D13's intake session with a new Psychiatrist.  Her prior Dr. left the practice last summer, and it's taken until now to find and be seen by a new one.  uBPDx scheduled the appointment, would not provide any information - I was able to get it through medical records. I offered to pickup D13 at school and either bring her to uBPDx or meet at the appointment.  At the appointment, uBPDx said "you didn't say you were coming" and accused me of being manipulative (accusations are confessions).  My feeling is that if we truly put D13 first, we would take her together and show mutual support.  I participated in all meetings with her prior Dr.  The real question might be:  Why wouldn't I be there?   

In addition to concerns about a pattern of exclusion or attempted exclusion from important meetings and events, there are new follow ups that will need to be managed with uBPDx re: adjustment to D13's meds (ADHD) that are not straightforward, because uBPDx has added a concern re: anxiety to the mix.  The Dr. quickly stated that she sees no clinical / generalized anxiety, but she was open to trying a baby dose of Prozac... D13 doesn't want it.  uBPDx wants it.  This means that I am tie-breaker by default because we have joint decision making, so either of us can override the other.  My POV is that there is no urgent need to try new meds, we can take a wait and see approach if emotional or behavioral issues become more acute (the issues that uBPDx cites are normal 13yo issues, from my POV).  However, uBPDx may be provoked if she doesn't get her way on this - I would not be surprised if she uses this moment to file a motion or take some other action.

Finally, the kids were with their mom for Thanksgiving.  I called to say hi and facetime, and it was clear that the kids were more or less hiding in order to take the call from their grandmother's house.  The kids were with me over the weekend - D15 repeated something I said to her mom, who sent a flaming email citing D15.  The comments were highly distorted, and what bothered me was that I couldn't tell if the distortion came from D15 or her mom, or maybe a bit of both. 

This time, I immediately addressed it with all three kids:  "Guys, I just got an email from mom.  She thinks I said a, b, c.  I will follow up and let her know that there's been some misunderstanding because this isn't what was said, and I think it's important to clear up miscommunication quickly - that way we can avoid arguments or hurt feelings" - then later, I showed D15 her mom's email and said "I'm not upset with you, and you don't need to respond - but I want you to understand why I commented about mom's email to your sisters, and I also want you to understand how I will take action to clear up misunderstandings and help reduce conflict."  Based on D15's body language, I think she was both surprised at her mom's words (it's the first time I've shown her what I see), but also a bit embarrassed - which is why I suspect that there were distortions in the story from D15 and her mom.  I might review this episode with D15's T.

I was hoping that D15 might soften a bit after this, but that hasn't been the case - she's still very adversarial, with fleeting moments of cooperation or slight softening when she wants something...

Do these examples stand out at particularly egregious alienation behaviors?  Maybe not.  I've read other stories about kids who are prevented from seeing a parent, adversarial exes who don't follow a parenting plan, and other far more overt/concerning behaviors.  However, it's the cumulative effect of subtle and not-so-subtle comments, suggestions, responses that somehow accrue into behaviors like D15's alliance with her mom and rejection of me. I'm so apprehensive that dominos will fall and D13 and D8 will follow.  And that "taking the high road" amounts to falling into the same avoidance patterns that enabled an unhealthy marriage to continue for far too long in the first place.

Is gaining the conviction to take action - like I did re: uBPDx's email - a good instinct?  Not loving these moments of self-doubt, but the alternative looks to be orders of magnitude worse.

[livednlearned]

D15's T ignored an email request to touch base for a week.  I sent a follow up and finally got a response - we will speak next Monday.  It's the first 1:1 communication since D15 started.  In my experience, this isn't normal - prior Ts communicated early and often.

That would make me nervous, too. Can you remind us if you were involved in finding this therapist and had a say in working with her? What is her background?

My agenda for the call is to ask how to best support D15, especially through the holidays - now that there have been at least 2-3 sessions, I hope the T can provide some insight.

If you haven't seen this already, it's probably a good idea to take a look at Ju-jitsu Parenting: Fighting Back from the Down Position by Childress. Even though it's assuming more of a forensic psychology situation, you're close enough that there are likely to be helpful insights. As Childress says, you are being defined.

Not working to proactively reach out to you may be neutral -- let's hope -- but it also can't hurt to approach it as though it isn't.

My POV is that there is no urgent need to try new meds, we can take a wait and see approach if emotional or behavioral issues become more acute (the issues that uBPDx cites are normal 13yo issues, from my POV).  However, uBPDx may be provoked if she doesn't get her way on this - I would not be surprised if she uses this moment to file a motion or take some other action.

A version of this existed in my case, although in reverse. Then S10 went through a psycho-educational evaluation and was found to be ADHD/ADD combined type. We went to a psychiatrist whose view was to medicate only if his ADHD was impacting him socially and having a negative effect on his self-perception. In our case, n/BPDx refused to agree to the diagnosis but said yes to the medication. The psychiatrist was confused and wanted him to clarify, which he refused to do, so she would not agree to medication. It was helpful to have the entire episode documented by email since the judge could then see for himself, in writing, the lengths that n/BPDx went to avoid agreeing or not agreeing and confusing everyone involved. It ended with n/BPDx saying he didn't believe in ADHD diagnoses, yet he was not only diagnosed himself, but also medicated. 

Finally, the kids were with their mom for Thanksgiving.  I called to say hi and facetime, and it was clear that the kids were more or less hiding in order to take the call from their grandmother's house.  The kids were with me over the weekend - D15 repeated something I said to her mom, who sent a flaming email citing D15.  The comments were highly distorted, and what bothered me was that I couldn't tell if the distortion came from D15 or her mom, or maybe a bit of both. 

Based on D15's body language, I think she was both surprised at her mom's words (it's the first time I've shown her what I see), but also a bit embarrassed - which is why I suspect that there were distortions in the story from D15 and her mom.  

I think this might be a very close example to what Richard Warshak recommends in Divorce Poison. None of us want to put our kids in the middle but when the other parent is engaged in alienation techniques, you have to skillfully address the ways in which your ex has middled the child.

I might review this episode with D15's T.

What if the narrative about you is that you spy on D15 and have bad boundaries?

I'm sure there are ways to have that conversation that will feel like adult:adult but some therapists view the parents of their clients as children who are looking for a parent to referee. I would run dialog through the Jujitsu article to make sure you see any potential traplines.

However, it's the cumulative effect of subtle and not-so-subtle comments, suggestions, responses that somehow accrue into behaviors like D15's alliance with her mom and rejection of me. I'm so apprehensive that dominos will fall and D13 and D8 will follow.  And that "taking the high road" amounts to falling into the same avoidance patterns that enabled an unhealthy marriage to continue for far too long in the first place.

BPD parenting is equivalent to pathogenic parenting (alienation), which Childress refers to as developmental child abuse. Like you say, it's the accumulation of thousands upon thousands of looks, words, phrases that accumulate until the child cannot accurately perceive who the abuser is.

It's a high-wire act. It's good you're listening to your instincts and working to understand how best to counter it.

Is gaining the conviction to take action - like I did re: uBPDx's email - a good instinct?  Not loving these moments of self-doubt, but the alternative looks to be orders of magnitude worse.

n/BPDx sent an email to our son when he was 13 or so that was meant to humiliate me because it was part of a forwarded email I had written during the marriage. n/BPDx thought it underscored a point he was trying to make, but it angered S13 because it put him in the middle in a way that really pissed him off.

It's hard to know how these things will be perceived by our kids. Sometimes every conversation can feel like a roll of the dice. What I noticed about myself is how subtle the line was between caring about my kid, and caring what my kid thought of me. I think if you can get in that pocket and really understand that this is about D15 -- assuming she has not been fully co-opted -- you can build that validating environment our kids are so desperate to get.

My son does not have a relationship with n/BPDx. Of all the things he resents the most, it's that n/BPDx makes it all about him, every time. It's not that n/BPDx called him names or verbally abused him or didn't show up or passed out, but that his father could not focus on him, as the kid in the relationship. It's easy to see when a disordered person struggles to put kids first, but we have to be very aware of it in ourselves, and that's really really hard to do when missiles are headed your way every 5 seconds, coming from both D15 and your ex. It's almost imperceptible, it's like a fine line and you have to be checking it to see which side you're on.

[kells76]

Speaking of being in the middle:

My POV is that there is no urgent need to try new meds, we can take a wait and see approach if emotional or behavioral issues become more acute (the issues that uBPDx cites are normal 13yo issues, from my POV).  However, uBPDx may be provoked if she doesn't get her way on this - I would not be surprised if she uses this moment to file a motion or take some other action.

A version of this existed in my case, although in reverse. Then S10 went through a psycho-educational evaluation and was found to be ADHD/ADD combined type. We went to a psychiatrist whose view was to medicate only if his ADHD was impacting him socially and having a negative effect on his self-perception. In our case, n/BPDx refused to agree to the diagnosis but said yes to the medication. The psychiatrist was confused and wanted him to clarify, which he refused to do, so she would not agree to medication. It was helpful to have the entire episode documented by email since the judge could then see for himself, in writing, the lengths that n/BPDx went to avoid agreeing or not agreeing and confusing everyone involved. It ended with n/BPDx saying he didn't believe in ADHD diagnoses, yet he was not only diagnosed himself, but also medicated.

I wonder if there's a way to take yourself out of the "middle" position of "tiebreaker", given your intuition that xW would leverage that as ammo: "Dad doesn't care about you medically, I'm the only one who sees your true distress and anxiety, it's unbelievable that Dad would force you to not take medication that your doctor thinks you could need, blah blah blah"

Maybe you can get in writing or email some kind of agreement that you're not opposed to medication as long as the doctor (or school counselor or someone) comes up with the criteria and tracks the criteria -- not just you, not just Mom.

Something like: "Sure, Doctor, if D13 ends up needing Prozac [or whatever], I support your professional opinion; could you lay out for me in an email or reference sheet the benchmarks you'll be looking at, and how many months you'll monitor her for before reassessing?"

I'd hope that having a "checklist" of stuff like: how many times she goes to the school counselor's office per week, what she reports to the psych after you take her for a visit, what she reports to the psych after Mom takes her for a visit, grades over time, any behavior stuff at school, etc, would be something everyone could point to for decisionmaking, instead of "just Dad" or "just Mom" being tiebreaker.

Something where you don't fight Mom's desire for meds (though, I get it, that seems like a pretty bad idea), you find a way to agree with her that if the doctor puts together a checklist and monitors over time and D13 meets the criteria, then you agree with Mom to do meds.

Trying to think of ways to remove the fight between you and Mom, and somehow make it between Mom and the medical professionals.

[EyesUp]

Thanks, all, for following along and riffing.

A couple of notes. Candidly, I'm a little unsettled and could use a sounding board.

It's the third xmas since the separation/divorce, so this routine still feels new/different, i.e., doing xmas in two houses. The first year, uBPDx raged that I was appropriating her holiday...  Nevermind that traditions had been well established with the kids - she wanted full control of xmas and was angry when she learned that I had a tree in my house.

In fairness, before we had kids, we didn't really do xmas and we exchanged presents on NYE. After we had kids, she wanted a tree and I capitulated - and supported the tradition ever since. It didn't even occur to me not to have a tree or to continue the tradition for the kids in my home.

FFWD to this year, en route to pick out a tree with the kids, I told them about how mom wanted a tree and how we've had one ever since.

Later that day, I got an angry email from X stating "D15 said that you told the kids it was your idea to get a tree. You're disparaging me and my tradition" and goes on to threaten some legal action and closed with "I'm sick your BS".   To me, this is disordered thinking in black and white:  I can clearly see that she's upset that I talk to the kids about traditions, but how can I disparage a tradition that I am actively promoting in my own household?

Unlike past emails that I generally ignore, this time I engaged the kids.  I told them that I received a message from mom and that she seemed very upset that I took credit for having a tree, but that's not what I said - and that when something like this happens, it's a good idea to to send a short note so that there's no misunderstanding, which I would do.  I said this to all three kids in front of D15, who did not respond.

Then, after the younger two were in bed, I had a short discussion with D15.  I told her that she didn't do anything wrong, I wasn't upset.  However I wanted to share mom's note - which I did.  Her eyes grew large as she read, but she didn't say anything.  After she read it, I simply said "I'm not going to share all of mom's messages with you, but I thought it might be helpful this time so that you can understand why I wanted all of you to know why I was talking about this earlier - I will send a short note to mom tonight so that there's no misunderstanding."

It was the first time I've done anything like this with D15.

It did not produce an immediate thaw, but I think I perceived a starter motor clicking...  at least that's what I was hoping for.

I also spoke with D15's T.  In short, T said that she doesn't have any acute concerns, D15's behavior is normal teenage stuff, and that I'm doing everything right.  I told her about a couple of recent discussions with D15, and she simply said "keep talking" and let's stay in touch... 

Finally, in the course of follow up re: D13's Prozac option, uBPDx mentioned that she feels that I call all the shots, override all her decisions, and don't act in the best interests of the kids.  I asked her to expand on this and it's all about the fact that I did not capitulate when she unilaterally attempted to enroll D13 at her school last year.  I asked if there's anything else, and I can see how the Prozac scrip could become another example, but there were no other examples from the past.  However she did say that "if this continues she'll need to take some legal action" which I take to mean that it's not if, but when...   Her entitlement is off the chart, so she will likely seek relief from a judge if she can't get what she wants some other way.

Summary:
- D15's T is not addressing the post-D dynamic that I cited as a central concern when onboarding. I'd be delighted if the "normal teenage behavior" diagnosis is correct, but wish there was something more programmatic in place.  I am grateful, at least, that she offered some validation to me re: "doing all the right things" vs. the alternative...
- the xmas tree drama shows that D15 is engaged in some kind of alliance with her mom.
- the Prozac decision needs to be addressed in a follow up meeting next week... I appreciate the advice re: providing conditional agreement as a path forward.
- the threat of legal action is both concerning and non-concerning.  On one hand, if uBPDx files a motion, I'll file a counter motion. I suspect that there could be temp orders, but more likely no immediate changes pending investigation via GAL, etc., which would be costly and time consuming and almost certainly not good for mom... but also not great for the kids in various ways.

There's got to be a better way to mitigate conflict other than capitulation. 

Merely asking for D13's Psych to outline an actual protocol and plan will likely be perceived as a challenge by uBPDx, and possibly by the Psych, too.  As a side note, the Psych went ahead and wrote the Rx after one meeting and after stating that she didn't think it was necessary - but that she'd provide it if the parents agreed, and that we'd follow up in two weeks.  But rather than waiting for the follow up meeting, she sent in the Rx, and provided a note (captured in the EHR) stating "the parents can start anytime if they agree" - I guess this sort of thing is well intentioned, but it's like handing my X a grenade with the pin pulled out, and now I have reservations about a Psych who appears to contradict her own position with zero rigor.  I've heard of doctors who prescribe Prozac like aspirin - I think we've got one.

Happy December, everyone.

[kells76]

Quick thought on this:

- D15's T is not addressing the post-D dynamic that I cited as a central concern when onboarding. I'd be delighted if the "normal teenage behavior" diagnosis is correct, but wish there was something more programmatic in place.  I am grateful, at least, that she offered some validation to me re: "doing all the right things" vs. the alternative...

I'm thinking marathon, not sprint. This is a new T, so it may take a while for the dynamics to play out. This is good that she gave the stamp of approval to "keep talking" -- you can keep having those "clarification" conversations with the kids as needed, and if Mom complains, you can turn to the T and say "I'm a little stuck, your suggestion to keep talking with the kids makes sense, what would you recommend I do or change in this situation?"

Model for the T that you are the parent who can take feedback.

Also, you can use the T's framing as "it's mostly normal teen behavior" as another entryway to partnering with the T: "Thanks T, it's helpful to hear that perspective. This is my first time parenting a 15 year old, so I may have some questions I bring to you about situations that come up, and hearing your take on whether it's normal-range or not would really help. What do you think I should be looking for that would signal to me something outside of normal range behavior?"

Basically, one approach would be not fighting her approach or framing yet. Move forward "as if" the T is seeing the whole picture -- follow the advice to keep talking, and record behaviors that you have questions about. At some point it seems inevitable that the BPD family dynamic is going to rear its head, and that moment is hopefully something you bring to the T and do the "I'm confused" move: "I'm confused... can you help me unpack this... D15 is saying that Mom said XYZ, but I haven't gotten that communication from Mom (or whatever the issue is)... is that typical? What would you recommend I do in this situation?"

It may take an occurrence of the T recommending "OK, I think doing ABC would be helpful here" and you (disagreeing with ABC) doing ABC anyway and it not working, or having an opposite effect, for the T to see that normal-range problem solving is not helping the dynamic and for the T to realize for herself that something else is in play.

It's probably not the only approach, but it is an option -- lean into the T's framing and wait for the inevitable disordered dynamics to show themselves.

...

In terms of D13's meds, and Prozac specifically... it could be a hill to die on. Do you have the energy to BIFF it -- communicate to the psych and Mom "thanks for the information, good to know, I don't agree with Prozac at the moment as the risks outweigh the current benefits, let's check in again in February"?

Legally you'd be covered -- the psych is saying "if the parents agree" and you don't, plus it sounds like your PP has joint medical decision making. Like you said, it's the conflict that would happen after that, that's the issue.

It's a question of what you have the bandwidth for, and what is best for D13. You have a lot of other stuff going on, so not everything can be the hill to die on, but Prozac is no joke either.

...

Then, after the younger two were in bed, I had a short discussion with D15.  I told her that she didn't do anything wrong, I wasn't upset.  However I wanted to share mom's note - which I did.  Her eyes grew large as she read, but she didn't say anything.  After she read it, I simply said "I'm not going to share all of mom's messages with you, but I thought it might be helpful this time so that you can understand why I wanted all of you to know why I was talking about this earlier - I will send a short note to mom tonight so that there's no misunderstanding."

It was the first time I've done anything like this with D15.

It did not produce an immediate thaw, but I think I perceived a starter motor clicking...  at least that's what I was hoping for.

That sounds positive.

I think sometimes with our kids, we wish we had 2-family situations where the adults were the ones who talked about adult issues, and the adults shielded the kids from adult conversations. That goes out the window when a pwBPD is involved. It no longer matters that you didn't want to expose the kids to adult topics, they're getting exposed at Mom's whether that's what you wanted for them or not. It hurts to have to pivot to the reality that "I didn't want this for you, but we're here, and I wish we had a relationship where sharing adult emails with you wasn't an option, but that's not the reality we're in".

Given the choices Mom has made, I think sharing those messages may be the "least bad" move and makes sense for your situation.

 How has D15 behaved since that talk?

[EyesUp]

Thanks again Kells.

The suggestions re: how to engage D15's T and prove out or at least better demonstrate what's happening or not happening are appreciated.

We've got a remote follow up with D13's doctor this week, and uBPDx has already laid out her arguments - not so much about why Prozac is needed, but rather why it was good for her (yes, she's taken it on and off for 25 years, but my observation was that her depression cycles and anxieties steadily worsened over that time), and why my opposition to it is not in the best interest of our child, and what action she may need to take if I don't agree...  etc.  i.e., it's more about her than about D13. 

So, I will explore a bit more about criteria - although there appear to be none, since the Rx was already written based on a first meeting with minimal interaction with the patient, before a profile sheet was completed, and with divided parents.  You can guess how I'm feeling about this provider already...

As for D15, no change. I'm consistently iced out. We do have our weekly 1:1 time when I take her to dance, and I use this time to talk a bit.  She's *slightly* more communicative, i.e., she will actually respond to direct questions.

It's interesting, I interviewed one of the top GALs (who is also a T with a focus on family systems) in my state earlier this year - based on my description of what's happening, the GAL basically said "yes, those are alienation behaviors, and I know how to intervene and treat it, but almost no one else does, and I only accept direct pay at $xxx/hour" - which struck me as a bit guru-ish and didn't inspire confidence.

My observation is:  A lot of people have created a cottage industry of getting paid to listen to people attempt to describe traumas, abuses, behaviors, concerns...  without much if any real framework for intervention or performance-based outcomes.

I'm not saying all so-called alienation experts are fraudsters, however I am saying that you can read thousands of pages and listen to hundreds of hours of podcasts or youtube videos which describe what happens and even why it happens - but there are very, very few experts out there who concretely describe how to neutralize both the alienator and the targeted child's response to the alienator.   

Perhaps it's because those of us who get into this position are often avoidant to some degree in the first place - and learning how to adopt an entirely new posture in relationships requires a significant adjustment and associated commitment...

[CC43]

Eyes, you seem like a very caring and sensitive father.  Daughters can be moody, and in the case of daughters with BPD, moodiness can be extreme.

I have one observation about my mid-20s stepdaughter who is diagnosed with BPD.  Many of her accusations appear to be pure projection of her own insecurities.  For instance, she often rages about how everyone treats her like a child.  In actuality, she's feeling childlike, not because of how others treat her, but because she hasn't hit typical adult milestones.  (I'll add that she also acts very childlike with tantrums and inappropriate behavior.)  Anyway, this is a obviously a source of stress and shame for her.  For example, recently a relative made a small gesture of help, and a couple days later my stepdaughter exploded, writing a vicious and threatening email, because her relative "disrespected" her, treated her like a child and was condescending.  All the relative did was offer her some water!  Thus her rage is coming from personal insecurities, and it is re-cast as blaming others at the slightest provocation.  Another example is when my stepdaughter shouted at a large Christmas gathering, "This is so boring!  You all are lame!"  In actuality, there were many generations present, and we were having a jolly time chatting and catching up, preparing food, eating treats and enjoying seeing each other.  I think she was the boring one, as she wasn't helping with the preparations, and she wasn't engaged in the conversation.  She couldn't bear to see that her younger cousins had surpassed her in milestones (school, jobs, boyfriend/girlfriend, etc.), which were the natural topics of conversation.  She was feeling ashamed and left out, and she was projecting her frustration, while blaming everyone else.

I'd recommend that you listen to what your daughter is saying--maybe she's telling you exactly what is bothering her, through projection.  Maybe she's worried about being late, because she herself feels like she is running behind all the time?  Is she being left behind by her peers in some way?  Are her younger siblings surpassing her in developmental milestones?  In summary, instead of defending yourself from blame, try to pay attention to the core of the complaint.  Good luck.

[EyesUp]

@CC43 - good questions.  I have answers:

>>>I'd recommend that you listen to what your daughter is saying--maybe she's telling you exactly what is bothering her, through projection.  Maybe she's worried about being late, because she herself feels like she is running behind all the time?

Excellent advice. She's very rarely late, however her uBPD mom has generalized anxiety and is not only always early, but also always anxious about being late. D15 is bonded to mom and is adopting some of mom's behavior...

>>> Is she being left behind by her peers in some way? 
D15 is concerned that some of her friends have jobs or babysit, but she has yet to start.  I've offered to help but been rejected.  Mom seems supportive and has proposed some ideas, but doesn't seem to take action or follow though and also expresses that D15's extra curricular schedule complicates the situation (not for baby sitting).
D15 is also a normal kid that expresses a high degree of social anxiety, and I speculate that she might feel like she's behind in the dating department - which hasn't started yet, as far as I can see. It's normal teen stuff, but how D15 experiences it seems to be heightened in ways that contribute to anxiety in unhealthy ways.

>>> In summary, instead of defending yourself from blame, try to pay attention to the core of the complaint.  Good luck.

Good advice, thanks.

I received the following message from D15 this morning - she's presently at her mom's and the normal transition schedule has her coming to me tomorrow after school.  There's an event for family at her dance studio on Thursday...

"i do not want you coming to my showcase week on thursday. i want mom to take me. you make me incredibly uncomfortable and miserable and i like going to dance on thursday because i get to escape that for an hour and if you come into my class that ruins it. i would like mom take me to dance or i don’t even see the point in going."
and then... "and i thought of that text with my own brain in case you were wondering."

I'm thinking of a potential response, but suggestions are welcome. When she says things like this, I'm just numb.

[CC43]

Eyes, it must be painful to hear that from your daughter.  I'm replying because I've often heard that sort of accusation from my diagnosed stepdaughter.  For example, recently my husband and I supported her by attending an event similar to a recital, for which we travelled a long distance.  My husband and I enjoyed the event, where my stepdaughter performed well, and we praised her extensively.  We also spent time with her touring the area.  My husband and I enjoyed the weekend immensely.  We also paid for travel, hotel, meals, registration and tickets; otherwise she wouldn't have been able to afford it (she's in her mid-20s).

Subsequently, she sent her father a hateful text, accusing us of "ruining" the weekend for her!   I might have been shocked, but this is standard practice for her--blaming is a feature of BPD.  Rather than focus on the reasons for blame, I thought about the core complaint:  that she was disappointed with the trip.  I tend to think that she was unhappy about this particular experience because (i) it was harder than expected (she had to stand up all day); (ii) she didn't get an award or the recognition that she was looking for; and (iii) she might have felt that others performed better than she did.  The experience possibly made her feel inferior.  Even more important was that she was vying to have a career breakthrough at this event, even if the odds were remote.  Rather than deal with the disappointment or re-aligning her expectations to be more realistic, and simply enjoying the opportunity to travel, perform, and share the experience with her father, she lashed out at him.  I'm writing all this in an attempt to demonstrate that if you eliminate the part about blaming you, you might understand the core complaint.  I'm not saying this would always apply to your daughter.  I'm just saying that in my experience, people with BPD will often view life with a very negative lens and feel easily disappointed, and they tend to react by blaming others, especially parents, in order to cope.

Your daughter's core complaint seems to be that she's miserable.  Did you make her feel that way?  I doubt it, seeing how you're trying your best, and you seem very considerate and attentive to your daughter's needs.  I can't help but wonder if something else is going on in her life to make her feel miserable.  If that's the case, the dance might be just an excuse to send that message to you and try to blame you at the same time.  And yes, playing parents off of each other is typical, though not necessarily specific to BPD.

Maybe this post is similar to my last response to you.  I just felt I had to summarize the "ruining the recital" situation because it actually happened to me.

All the best to you.

[livednlearned]

EyesUp, if you knew D15 had BPD or adjacent, would you do anything different?

Is there anything you have thought of doing, but aren't because you're trying to gauge whether this is normal teenage behavior or BPD?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[EyesUp]

EyesUp, if you knew D15 had BPD or adjacent, would you do anything different?

Is there anything you have thought of doing, but aren't because you're trying to gauge whether this is normal teenage behavior or BPD?

Interesting question.  My immediate response:

If BPD had a clear path to diagnosis and/or treatment, I would likely be motivated to take action - however, given that diagnosis and treatment of b-cluster behaviors is often fraught, I feel like I'm stuck in the same old situation I've been in before - striking a balance between "wait and see" in which more concrete information emerges (typically not pleasant), and proactively seeking new ways to approach the situation. 

In the latter case, I can't say it feels like I'm making any progress.  What are the options?
- attempt to engage uBPDx on this topic?  <- low probability of success
- continue to apply jiu-jitsu parenting?  <- long road to potential outcomes
- seek legal intervention?  <- roll the dice, short term pain, and $$$$ with or without a good outcome

In each of these instances, I'm stuck in my own head with medium to long-term plans, and no good way to respond in the immediate situation.

Finally, I don't feel like D15 exhibits "normal" teenage behavior.  I've know plenty of teenagers, as we all have, and not all of them go to war with a parent this way.  2 short years ago, D15 (then 13) and I had a very different, very positive, very good relationship.  The changes have coincided with uBPDx's alienation / parentification campaign, which followed the divorce.  In fact, aspects of the campaign started years in advance, and simply amped up following the separation. 
- discussion about the divorce process, my attorney, and things that were not appropriate to share with a kid at any age - and often highly one-sided, distorted, or false
- lots of bad-mouthing me, my family, my choices ("why is he taking you there?  that place is terrible" or even "your father doesn't know how to be a parent, but don't worry I'll take care of you" etc etc etc)
- lots of critical comments about my house / activities ("I hope you don't have to eat bad food when you're with your father")
- lots of control maneuvers ("don't tell your father that we ...  a, b, c... " or "don't bring your things to your father's house, then he'll need to bring you back again to get x, y, z....")

Could the stress/trauma of all this lead to BPD-ish behavior? You betcha. Does D15 have full blown BPD?  I'd say no, because she is often very restrained and controlled in her behavior.  Not a lot of outbursts.  She's learned to hold it in.   It's certainly not safe to do that with her mom, and she working hard to avoid any kind of interaction with me that will require a lot more interaction...

I'll give the question further thought, but at the moment I feel like there may be a chance to promote independent thinking with D15 that doesn't require direct confrontation with her mom - it only requires promoting some DBT-style skills so that she can self-regulate instead of defaulting to "protect mom" or "make mom happy" (which are naturally commingled with "protect myself" and "make me happy" in a very BPD-ish way).

However none of this yields a playbook for the current situation, which can be precedent setting among many other concerns.

[livednlearned]

Jujitsu parenting is helpful. But I'm wondering if the alienation you're seeing warrants more Divorce Poison (Richard Warshak) level response? That book made the hair on my neck stand up because it gets pretty deep into brainwashing/propaganda level alienation. The comment D15 made "these are my own thoughts" is troubling, and reminds me of examples from that book. 

I'm also wondering if there is a path forward through family counseling, in which you and D15 are doing therapy individually with a counselor, and also together, with the same counselor.

Is there a way to present this to D15 as a natural consequence of eliminating you from  events? "I propose we work through what's happening in counseling together so I understand fully what's happening here."

Thoughts?

[EyesUp]

I'm also wondering if there is a path forward through family counseling, in which you and D15 are doing therapy individually with a counselor, and also together, with the same counselor.

Is there a way to present this to D15 as a natural consequence of eliminating you from  events? "I propose we work through what's happening in counseling together so I understand fully what's happening here."

I think D15 would not go willingly, and in any case this would require alignment with D15's mom, as we have joint decision making on all healthcare...

I agree that "these are my own thoughts" may be telling.

Since I last posted, D15's T has been MIA / unresponsive, and D15 has sent a number of texts asking me to let her go with mom.  Communicating via txt is yet another trap...

Meanwhile, in parallel, uBPDx / D15's mom asked me separately if I had a sitter for Thursday... obviously trying to glean some insight about my plans.  I responded by saying that I plan to attend, I'm aware of D15's concerns, and I'm open to hear her thoughts...   instead of sharing any thoughts, she pivoted to attack re: unrelated topics.  I can't help but wonder if there's something else in play between uBPDx and D15 re: this particular event.

I'm still at an impasse re: how to respond to my own kid.

Back to your prior Q re: responding differently to BPD vs. non-BPD...   did you have something else in mind?

[livednlearned]

I'm still at an impasse re: how to respond to my own kid.

Part of me would want to get a conversation going that you can document, then share with a therapist, or court if it comes to that.

Or get her to trade something. She is asking you to give away something precious (being with her). What can she offer that is meaningful in return (more time with you, therapy together, watching a movie like The Wave to get discussion going on persuasion (without calling it parental alienation). That video has been used in a Family Bridges program, if I'm remembering correctly.

[EyesUp]

Good advice re: documentation - I guess that's the upside of text...

In terms of bartering - I've tried this once before, and it was useful to get her to open up.  I allowed D15 to go to her mom's early in return for a promise to talk about what's bothering her.  Which she did.  And it was illuminating, maybe I'll share in another post.

However I'm concerned about repeating the move, in part because it felt like a big deal, and in part because D15 actually commented on it - along the lines of "you need to buy my agreement" - which was basically accurate.  I'm concerned about making our relationship become transactional.  But, it's a viable tactic to keep in the back pocket - thanks.

At the moment, I'm thinking about breaking all the rules.

I agreed to let D15 go with mom on Thursday, I will stay home with D13 and D8.   

In parallel, uBPDx has escalated in multiple ways over the past ~48 hours.  There is something else in play.  It's super clear that resentment has been building that overrode her attempt to enlist D13 in a private school last year.  And this week I also got some alignment with D13's psychiatrist to try more programmatic therapy before medication.  uBPDx is furious that D13 is not immediately on prozac. We also had a parent teacher conference, which we attended together - in which uBPDx did not raise any concerns, although she told me in advance that the teacher sucks and that she was planning to let her know it. But then didn't. So perhaps the situation with D15 is all part of the mix, and we've just had more interaction than usual - and uBPDx didn't get her wish immediately granted re: prozac for D13, and this reminds her of the last time her plan for D13 was thwarted re: changing school...

Which brings me to the moment:  uBPDx has put in writing that my choices are terrible for the kids, and that they will know about it.  I take this sort of thing seriously - to me, this means that she will disparage me to the kids and tell them that I don't let them go to a better school, that I interfere with their medical care, that I do this because I'm a narcissist and I just want to control everything (she's already done this with D15).

So...

It sort of feels like this might be a moment to make a statement, to place a large chip on the table.

e.g., I could send a short email to the effect of "I have documentation of disparaging remarks you've made about me to D15 over the past two years, which includes telling D15 to delete messages - which I have seen nonetheless. This is highly inappropriate behavior on your part, and it must stop. If the disparagement continues in any form with D15 or her sisters, there will be consequences. I'm open to dialog with a family therapist, or with family members, or even 1:1, in order to ensure that we are all acting with kids' best interest in mind going forward. If I don't receive a response by x date, I will have no choice but to take action independently instead of working together to create a solution."

Yes, I know this sort of thing will likely provoke rage rather than agreement. Yes, the letter is for the judge as much as it is for her.  However it's a chess match, and this documents an attempt was made (after many other attempts, also documented) to resolve a situation.

From a Divorce Poison POV, the advice to engage a team of experts only works for people with tons of $$$ and a magical ability to identify the right experts. I don't have high confidence in my "team" - which only leads back to the judge, anyway. It's a long, painful, expensive road with an uncertain outcome.

And the advice to grey rock is not working at the moment, because uBPDx is super triggered when she doesn't get her way - with school decisions, medical decisions, etc. 

uBPDx is recently engaged and the wedding is planned for this August.  I hoped that she would level off, but if anything the conflict has amped up since the engagement.  My intuition tells me that she wants to move out of town, and she knows that won't be easy - so all of this conflict may be setting the table for her to file a motion to gain primary parent status - which she wanted from the beginning anyway.

I can sit back, wait for it to happen (like in concert with an ongoing alienation/disparagement campaign), and file a counter motion...   or, continue looking for ways to deflate her entitlement balloon sooner rather than later.

Riffing here.  Is it crazy to confront her, thereby letting her know that she risks a lot of exposure if she continues down her stated path?

[GaGrl]

What is the phrasing in your parenting agreement regarding disparagement?

[EyesUp]

This the final clause in a section titled "legal custody"...

"Neither party shall attempt, directly or indirectly, to prejudice the children against the other party or members of that party's family or condone any attempt to estrange the children from the other party or injure or impeded the respect and affection of the children for the other party; but to the contrary, shall at all times encourage and foster in the children respect and affection for both parents."

There are so many documented examples of snarky, if not outright insulting comments about me and my family from uBPDx to D15 via text.

Side note:  The agreement states that during transitions, we deliver the kids and the kids' things to the other parent at specific transition times.  For the past two years, I've voluntarily dropped off and picked up the kids' things at mom's house in order to minimize interaction - we simply use her enclosed front porch to transition the bags while the kids are at school, and I sidestep the chance of her getting triggered if visiting the former marital residence, which I managed to hold onto. 

For the past two weeks, the bags are not on the porch which necessitates a separate trip to mom's during my time.  I don't think this is a coincidence, it's another passive escalation.  My inclination is to send a registered letter:

"For the past two weeks, the kids' bags have not been ready on time and no notice has been given - which necessitates an extra trip to your house during my parenting time.

Going forward, please follow the agreement, ensure the kids are prepared to transition on time, do not withhold the kids' transition items, and deliver the kids' bags to my house no later than the agreed transition time."  etc.

I am mindful that this falls well below the alienation behaviors in terms of priority, so perhaps not worth raising.  Here are the various issues I'm tracking, which are generally agreement violations:

- extensive disparagement of me to D15, 2+ years (too many examples, documented)
- disparagement of me to various people the community and via social media (documented)
- attempted to unilaterally enroll D13 in a private school (documented)
- scheduled and did not communicate annual physicals during my parenting time - twice (I find out indirectly via the healthcare portal)
- delayed responding to my proposals for psych care for D15 and D13 over 30 days
- repeatedly demands information about plans and activities during my parenting time to me, and also the kids (documented)
- repeatedly threatens legal action re: expense reconciliation, even though there has never been a late payment or violation (documented)
- repeatedly threatens legal action re: communicating vacation plans (not required by the agreement unless out of the country - still, she persists)
- withholds D13's ADHD meds (i.e., she picks up the Rx, we split the cost, but she gives me less than half of the meds, which in turn necessitates extra communication and coordination because the Rx cannot be refilled until due - so I'm short on pills at my house.  Yes, I try to pick up the Rx whenever possible to avoid this situation)

This is off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a lot more, probably something more incriminating that I'm blocking at the moment.

In my fantasy world, the threat of exposure or loss would be enough to make her go straight - even if she carried on with resentment toward me.  However, as you might guess, she's far more likely to play the victim card and not really change her ways. 

I am somewhat apprehensive that the judge will make me primary parent for a period of time, and that uBPDx will weaponize it with the kids - "see, dad doesn't want you to be with me!" or that the judge will order a GAL and lots of other $$$$ nonsense that provides zero near-term improvement and only uncertain medium-long-term outcomes.

I also don't really want her to implode before she's remarried, and I'm slightly concerned about her fiance getting wise. Candidly, I want to buy that guy a beer and wish him well... but with all this escalation, I'm concerned she's really going to blow things up.

Still, as Warshak says many times, "Take Action" ...  right?

But Warshak never really says what action to take...

[livednlearned]

I could send a short email to the effect of "I have documentation of disparaging remarks you've made about me to D15 over the past two years, which includes telling D15 to delete messages - which I have seen nonetheless. This is highly inappropriate behavior on your part, and it must stop. If the disparagement continues in any form with D15 or her sisters, there will be consequences. I'm open to dialog with a family therapist, or with family members, or even 1:1, in order to ensure that we are all acting with kids' best interest in mind going forward. If I don't receive a response by x date, I will have no choice but to take action independently instead of working together to create a solution."

I see where you're going here. My current husband has a BPDx who engaged in enabling/alienating behaviors. You and H have a similar writing style  

You're in a one-down position and it's understandable that you want to square your shoulders and send a firm message. However, to me this message doesn't say "I'm a victim here, D15 is a victim here." It says "Do this or else."  

Unless there's a documented record already available that shows how you feel about what's happening, and the view that you and D15 are being harmed here?

My sense is that a message of "Do this or else" is best left to lawyers if that's where this goes. That's their job.

I would also guess that receiving a note like this would motivate her to take legal action before you do.

What do you think about speaking from the heart about what you're going through and your fears for D15? I know it's hard to do when your heart is being hammered by someone with narcissist traits. But that's what is often so odd -- narcissists don't readily show vulnerability. Instead, she has drawn you onto the battleground. As my father used to say you can't win a pissing match with a skunk.

As an aside: One of the things that is so upside-down about our divorces is that many of us go through total free-fall while piecing ourselves back together in the years after. It's hard to look at things from a healthy perspective because often we're healing from abuse and puzzling together for the first time how our family of origin impacted our choice in partners. Our instincts to be vulnerable or show normal emotional responses to things are often dulled.

If you can find a child psychologist you trust who has expertise in this area, who is willing to coach you or help you see what's happening here -- would that be something that could help guide you? This would be someone for you, not for you and D15. It doesn't have to involve your ex.

You want to take action, and that's understandable. You don't want to spend unnecessary $$$, also understandable. And the parenting agreement imposes some limitations on what you can do therapeutically with D15. Maybe finding your own expert who can coach/counsel you will help.

Thoughts?

Failing that, I would spend as much time thinking about the reasonable solution to your documented grievances and approach this strategically. Don't let the judge come up with the solution. Most of them don't want to tell grown adults how to parent their kids. They want someone to raise their hand and say I''m an adult, here's a reasonable solution.

[EyesUp]

I've been on the high road for the better part of 25 years.

Early on, there were a couple of breakup cycles but we dated for almost 10 years. Then there was a break for about a year - It was a huge relief when it first happened - but eventually she reached out, I allowed myself to get charmed, and then we got married and had three kids.

Throughout the relationship, I capitulated most of the time. It wasn't always terrible, and I often like you "take the good with the bad" and keep looking forward.

It's 2 years post-D, and almost 3 since separation.  Though this time, I've continued to stay on the high road. I generally don't respond to the complaint / threat / entitlement outburst du jour.
 But sometimes I send a BIFF response if only to log disagreement rather than leave any possible room for interpretation - hers or anyone else's - that I agree with whatever claim she's made.

I don't feel like this approach has served me well.

She is steadily projecting her own behavior on to me.  She's read the literature and apparently I'm the narcissist / predator / abuser.  I'm sure this has been a great way to enlist sympathy from friends and family.

I can see most of the situation clearly, except for how to respond.  At the moment, D8 and D13 have communicated to others that they like spending time at both homes.  But I'm so apprehensive of uBPDx activating them, too.  She's already demonstrated that she can do it with D15. 

I finally received a response from D15's therapist along the lines of "So sorry to see this but thank you for letting me know.  I am not sure where this is coming from exactly but ultimately if she could say more about whatever her discomfort/“uncomfortable,” is, that would be helpful.  It may have to do with where she is developmentally.  People her age are frequently highly sensitive about how everything reflects of on them because their own identities are so fragile. It sounds like you are trying to be sensitive to her needs.  If I gain any insight, I will encourage her to try and talk about this more constructively."

Not terrible, except for the context I provided at intake which appears to have gone missing.

In parallel, I received another message from uBPDx:  "I feel the need to address your saying you are "concerned" about D15. What is there possibly to be concerned about other than the fact that D15 does not like being at your house?

This is a kid who gets incredible grades, has a great group of friends, does not do drugs, isn't doing stupid stuff with boys, just got into a fantastic summer program, VOLUNTEERS with little kids on the weekend...I could go on and on. Hate to tell you, but this is about as good as it gets with teenagers. Not seeing much to be concerned about."

This comment is in alignment with D15's T's prior comments that D15 might just have normal behavior.   But if our roles were reversed, I'm quite sure that uBPDx would light the world on fire.  Lack of empathy is evident here. 

I've not responded.  Again.  Love your dad's comment about a pissing match with a skunk, btw.  I'm stealing that.  Yes, there's a whole story about my FOO and yes, history repeats, and yes, I've got a permanent poker face and don't easily show emotion, and yes that certainly contributed to certain dynamics in my relationship with uBPDx. Never again. That's just one reason why it's so important to me to take some action before the intergenerational trauma hits D15, D13, and D8 too.

Anyway, thanks for reading along. All three kids just transitioned to my house (after another delay) and will be here for 5 nights...  I'm making fajitas for dinner...  Not sending any threats just yet.  Mainly role playing and spit balling because, well, it's helpful.  Thanks again.

[livednlearned]

I guess I don't see it as the high road so much as the strategic road. Meaning, if you can't win a pissing match with a skunk, how do you deal with the skunk?

During the period post-divorce when alienation techniques were peaking, about the time I was reading everything I could, n/BPDx and I were in court waiting our turn. A couple was there (she had an L, he did not) to discuss their teen daughter's communication with her dad on her mobile phone.

Dad was saying his daughter wasn't responding to texts or calls. He said mom was coaching his daughter, turning her against him.

Mom said (through her L) that dad was controlling during the marriage. He was still controlling, and was trying to control his daughter and his ex. Daughter's behaviors were typical and within the norm.

I remember the mom's L saying that dad struggled to connect to his teen daughter and make sense of what were typical teen behaviors.

The judge picked up that thread and commiserated about how, yes, teen girls were complex, and he knew because he raised two. I remember him saying, "My oldest daughter is a lovely woman now with kids of her own but I remember her eye rolls could turn people to stone."

What that had to do with anything, who knows.

Regular parents don't go to court about why a teen girl is or isn't texting back.

People like us, we know it's about something else. Yet, given what I was going through, I figured one parent was alienating the daughter against the target parent.

Except I couldn't for the life of me tell which one, or whether it was both.

That's the episode going on in the back of my mind when I think about your situation.

That, and my ex husband, who eventually represented himself. He kept alleging that I was alienating our son from him. Meanwhile I was sending my son to his dad's home despite resistance.

What shut that business down was having a third-party professional who had monitored our communication and given my ex notes on how he was conducting himself. That led to a showdown between those two, with the professional requesting withdrawal from our case in court.

There is always a gamble when third-party professionals get involved.

What also helped my situation, which doesn't help you unfortunately, is that I was my son's primary caregiver before, during, and after. There wasn't a strong bond between him and his dad, other than a flash in the pan when the alienation was at a peak and our son was hopeful that his dad's interest was genuine and could sustain. Your ex has much more invested in keeping D15 close. 

The battle in the courts was also different than the battle for our son's heart.

It is interesting to me years later to hear S22 say that he caught his dad in a lie, and that's how he knew what was up. It had to do with a call, likely spam, from a Texas area code. S22 (12 or 13 at the time) knew it was a random call but brought it up for no real known reason. n/BPDx grabbed the phone and insisted it was a BF calling me, that I had had an affair, that's why I left, now he had proof. It was the smoking gun to explain why I was the bad parent, not him. It barely registered for me that this was a narrative in play.

I don't know if that makes sense...I guess what I'm trying to say is that S22 had his own litmus test that had nothing to do with what I was doing or saying, and the test wasn't a great one all things considered. S22 said to me, "I knew you couldn't be having an affair because I was with you all the time." Which of course, doesn't prove anything.

I think S22 probably decided I was the more plausible, steady parent who was consistent and reliable and then found kid proof in his kid brain to back it up. That, and his dad wasn't able to keep the routine of a good parent going.

It's an incredibly terrifying and painful thing to go through, watching your kid be used and weaponized and effectively, abused. All I could do was combine a wing and a prayer and strategize to the best of my abilities, almost obsessively so. And cultivate trusted relationships with professionals who seemed to want to help me, including a lawyer who eventually represented me pro bono during the last stretch. I'm not someone who feels comfortable, or felt comfortable (past tense) asking for help -- my orientation in life is to present strength to compensate for childhood victimization. Dealing with alienation of my kid definitely pushed me out of my comfort zone.

You seem to have good instincts and are paying close attention to a worsening pattern, and the T is at least responding (!)

Hopefully what develops next, if it's worse, is also something you can show others and elicit their support.

It's the worse when there are no easy answers.

[EyesUp]

@livenlearned, et. al., 

HNY.

I've been sitting with a lot of the ideas you and others shared in recent weeks/months.

The idea that I've been turning over and over is the sincere heartfelt approach. It's not intuitive and frankly feels dangerous for a number of reasons. And for those reasons, I've really tried to think through why it feels that way, if it could work, if it's worth a risk, and also - why I feel that way.

At a basic level, I've already been parallel parenting with D15's mom for some time.  In my experience, pre-divorce, there were moments of success with a mix of sincerity and calm, patient dialog.  It would sometimes lead to some agreement - or at least stated agreement - but more often than not, it would eventually lead to resentment. My ex would eventually return to the same topics at a later time and state "you always need to win" (projection?), sometimes state that she never really agreed (probably true, or at least a real feeling), and sometimes state that the prior conversation never happened at all... (full gaslight mode). These dynamics contributed to a breakdown of trust and to the eventual end of the marriage. 

Throughout and since the divorce, my uBPDxw has sent multiple threats to file a motion of contempt or some other motion in order to get more control of the kids (vs. our current 50-50 parenting plan and decision making agreement).  She has persistently shared her feelings with D15 - about the divorce proceedings and other adult matters that are not really appropriate to share with the kids (parentification).  She has also persistently disparaged me to D15 in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, while occasionally accusing me of doing the same (accusations are confessions).  She seems to be fully invested in the ideas that:

- I am a narcissist that always needs to win 
- I only care about myself, not about the kids - and comments about the kids' wellbeing are actually in my own self-interest
- I am abusive to her and I continue to manipulate her and/or the kids (and she has shared this idea with D15), e.g., our agreement states that if I have employer-provided healthcare, I will keep her on the policy if ex-spouses are allowed on the policy. I became self-employed after the divorce and continued to keep her on my self-paid insurance for over a year at my expense.  At some point after she secured a new fulltime job (first time in > 4 years), I asked if it made sense to explore insurance options. From her POV, that was abuse and manipulation.  Eventually, she got her own insurance - with great resentment...
  
Long story short, there's not much trust in our current dynamic, and with a long history of me saying "up" and her hearing "down" - I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a different response at this point. 

That said, I have attempted to broach a few topics with her via email and invited her to to have phone call (if she wants) and we'll see where it goes. 

In the meantime, D15 has stated that her T "is not on your side" (to me), and thinks she should stay with her mom if that's what she wants.  I have not heard anything from the T, and so I imagine that the T listened and did not invalidate D15's feelings, which D15 interprets as agreement. 

uBPDxw has texted that if D15 doesn't feel safe at my house, she is old enough to listen to her own feelings... I reminded uBPDxw that D15 can get very spicy and unreasonable with both of us, often in emotionally charged situations, and that I'd really appreciate it if she'd reinforce the idea that both parents love D15 - I guess a hint of sincerity in there after all.  Crickets.

I know I set this thread up from the start to explore if D15 may meet some BPD criteria or if she's merely a raging teen, or if there is some other influence in play.  As I've been thinking it over for some weeks, I think it's probably a mix.  

I recall reading somewhere, probably here, a recommendation to send a particular BPD overview to a teen's therapist with an open-ended question along the lines of "what do you think of this approach?" in order to get dialog going with a particular treatment in mind - but I can't place it - does this ring a bell?

As always, thank you.

[kells76]

EyesUp, with all this talk from Mom and D15 about D15 not spending time with you -- does D15 still come over?

Just curious about the dynamic, and wondering if D15 "talking a big game" about not coming over somehow smooths things over between her and her mom... but if she still spends time with you, that speaks to her wanting to be with you, but not able to articulate it safely.

H's kids' mom talked a big game about not wanting them to go on an international trip with us,  but when it came down to day of departure, she didn't interfere (more than she already had emotionally  ) and both the kids got on the plane.

IDK. Curious how much of the "I don't want to be at Dad's" talk translates into days lost. With SD15 we did lose some overnights -- there was some translation of the talk into action -- but it has settled down, not escalated.

I also wonder how much of your D15's distress is tied to Mom's upcoming marriage. Is she marrying her AP?

[livednlearned]

I recall reading somewhere, probably here, a recommendation to send a particular BPD overview to a teen's therapist with an open-ended question along the lines of "what do you think of this approach?" in order to get dialog going with a particular treatment in mind - but I can't place it - does this ring a bell?

Do you have a sense whether the therapist is part of a coalition against you?

I would want to tease that out as much as possible. You mention it's hard to tell, and I'm stunned on our end how long it takes for Ts to respond. Most of them do the admin side themselves, it seems.

In general, I try to take out the BPD and think about doing what my instincts say, with a big dose of the relationship/communication skills I've learned here.

Something I would look closely at is:

1. Ex says you're a narcissist -- she's probably saying this to the T
2. What don't narcissists do -- do that.
3. Self reflect, take responsibility for things, ask for advice, show humility, focus on D15's well-being

It seems like none of that will be challenging for you.

What might be challenging is to focus on what you have control over, which isn't mom. It's hard to have these conversations with MH professionals because we're living the dysfunction, and we want to name it. For all kinds of  reasons, that door is shut to us until they see it and name it.

Unless you feel comfortable saying, "My kid's mother thinks I'm a narcissist. I know what the Internet says about that, but I wanted the opinion of a professional, so I'm seeing a T and if you think it might help, I'm willing to grant consent to talk to them."

[EyesUp]

Thanks, both.

D15 declared that she didn't want to spend time with me after camp this past summer.  She tearfully said "No child should have to be away from their mom for 2 weeks" - which sounded a lot like my uBPDxw.  In the end, I agreed to trade an extra night with mom for her going on a short trip with her two sisters and with me, and she was ultimately with me for something like 12 of 14 scheduled overnights in August.

Since then, she has repeatedly begged or stolen additional nights with mom.  It's usually one extra night at mom's at the end of my parenting time when I have the long weekend (we have a 2-2-5 schedule).  Probably +4 nights to mom, although I got a couple back recently when mom had covid.  I should confirm the math, but let's say mom got 187 nights in 2023 for D15 while I had D13 and D8 for 182 nights.  Not sure that any judge will view this as a major change of circumstances or deviation from plan, but there has been a tilt in mom's favor and mom did send an email stating that if this continues she "will have to take some action to protect D15".

Nonetheless, I have capitulated to D15 multiple times - in part to reduce the conflict/avoid escalation, in part to give D15 some sense of control (though admittedly not the good kind).

uBPDxw is not marrying the AP, and the kids know nothing about the affair(s) - AP lives nearby and his daughter is in D8's class and likely will be for the next 10 years, so I have good reason to never expose uBPDxw to the kids.  Perhaps some day in the distant future I will let them know that there's another side to the story.  However even that is fraught, as uBPDxw's story, which was forming with the marriage counselor pre-D, and became a go-to post-D narrative, is that I was a horribly abusive spouse, she was a victim, her AP gave her validation that she never had at home, i.e., she made a bad choice because she was in a bad marriage, so it wasn't really her fault and now she's happily free of the bad marriage (but somehow still parenting with me... and, wait - more evidence that I'm a manipulator: she didn't get primary parent from the terrible anti-mom female judge that signed off on the 50-50 parenting plan that uBPDxw agreed to, i.e., wasn't ordered...).

But I digress.

It did occur to me that D15 may be aiming for more time with mom because she doesn't want to let go of her relationship with mom now that mom has someone new in her life, and so finagling time with mom interrupts mom's time with the soon-to-be stepdad.  Although D15 has made a great show of being happy for mom, looking forward to the wedding and participating, etc.  I know that D15's relationship with the fiance (is there a better term or acronym, I can't keep up!) got off to a rocky start - uBPDxw actually mentioned this - but it seems to have smoothed over from what I can see.

What's more concerning is that D15 lies to her mom about me / my house.  I receive notes from mom stating that D15 says that...
- the house is dirty
- there is no shampoo
- her bed is broken
- she doesn't have a blanket
- I won't buy her allergy meds

etc.

I've gently pointed out to uBPDxw that there is a pattern of false claims, that D15 is anxious/avoidant, and that I'd appreciate it if she would encourage D15 to communicate directly with me instead of relaying messages on D15's behalf.

I have not pointed out (directly) that D15 is not only lying about dad, but also lying to mom.  Or that mom is actively participating in a triangulation dynamic instead of teaching / promoting / demonstrating healthier independent thinking, confidence, and accountability...   I am tiptoeing toward that goal. However, without maximum diplomacy, I expect uBPDxw to declare "once again, you have turned everything around at me and made everything my fault!  because you are a narcissist!  see kids - dad's against mom and never accepts any responsibility - he can't even accept that D15 just doesn't like him on her own!"

In summary, yes D15 still comes to my house - but often seeks a way to come late / leave early, persistently states that she's miserable at my house and if I cared about her I wouldn't force her to come, that she's going to be 16 soon and I can't control her forever (not sure what age has to do with it - emancipation is 18 in our state), that she doesn't care what a piece of paper says - she's a human and should have self-determination... (actually, mom probably tells D15 that we have to follow the agreement which states the parenting schedule and child support continues until emancipation 18).  D15 has taken virtually everything from her room at "my" house to her mom's - clothes, you name it - so often needs to go to mom's for supplies.

I've shared far more here than with D15's T...  as I avoid dumping too much too quickly.  I am thinking about how to broach a post-holiday update...   I agree that it's possible that there is already some alliance between uBPDxw - D15 - and D15's T (an unwitting participant in another triangle).

Also agree with earlier comments re: marathon vs. sprint, but I'd like to feel like I'm actually pacing a marathon - vs playing rugby.

At the core of this:  uBPDxw disparages me to D15.  D15's rejection behaviors are consistent with alienation as well as her longstanding / pre-D anxious/avoidant behaviors.  

Can I become a better teen communicator and demonstrate support and safety to D15 and her sisters - yes, always working on this.  However there is an ongoing campaign of sorts to show that I'm not trustworthy - and zero support to show otherwise - so it's not really surprising that D15 arrives at the conclusion that it's "safer" at mom's if she isn't happy at dad's.

I can proactively provide all the shampoo in the world, but D15 is at the point where she will either reject the shampoo (which she has always used, asked for) or tell me that I'm trying to buy her acceptance and she won't fall for it...

I told her that I want to repair our relationship in the new year - she responded by saying "well, I don't!" and running to her room.

[kells76]

What's more concerning is that D15 lies to her mom about me / my house.  I receive notes from mom stating that D15 says that...
- the house is dirty
- there is no shampoo
- her bed is broken
- she doesn't have a blanket
- I won't buy her allergy meds

etc.

Isn't your ex a mandatory reporter? If she is a teacher (I think I read that in a previous post), she is legally required to report suspicions of neglect.

It might be, um, interesting to think about replying to those notes with "Then make a report to make it better for the kids... I can't imagine why you wouldn't report suspected neglect -- it might even be criminal not to report it".

IDK -- she's trying to have it both ways. "You're neglectful" but she doesn't want it to actually be fixed -- she wants to perennially hold that over you, she doesn't want a solution (not saying you're neglectful, but saying -- your ex says you are and at the same time doesn't want it to be better for your kids).

Like I said, I'm not necessarily recommending it, but it would be... interesting to call her bluff.

[EyesUp]

@kells...

Interesting gambit.

Do you think it's better to call now, or to continue to bank months of communication in case a motion is filed at some later date - at which point, the counter motion would almost certainly note that issues have been identified and ignored many times - if there was a real concern, why wasn't it reported much sooner?  PS, why didn't any of the three Ts that have worked with D15 in the past ~2 years report - aren't they also mandatory reporters?

My question is:  What's the benefit of the call?

In this game, my feeling is that it's better to try to diffuse conflict than raise stakes because the other side (speaking in legal terms) is already either raising stakes or taking that posture all the time.

Even when I'm tempted to "square my shoulders" as previously noted, I don't do it. More like dream about it.  I consistently take the high road and avoid conflict - either because I'm not confident in the outcome, insecure in my ability to manage the process, or because I genuinely don't believe that direct confrontation is the best path for the desired outcome - which is about the kids' wellbeing and achieving some basic coparenting or at least copacetic parallel parenting.  I know that's almost naive to hope for, but I'm nothing if not an optimist (with a streak of acquired realism as I emerge from years of wandering in BPD land). 

To whatever extent I've internalized and adopted some jiu-jitsu tactics with uBPDxw (or D15 for that matter), I'm more inclined to go with "inception" than with confrontation.  The fact that I'm actively strategizing how to induce fairness and reason and something that resembles empathy in my uBDPxw makes me feel like maybe I am the manipulative narc that only needs to win...  still fighting the same old battles, but in a new venue.

I just want to take my kid car shopping next year, and talk about new music, and eventually visit colleges, and then help furnish her first apartment, and hopefully get to a point where I can give her fiance a stern look and then a big hug. All that stuff.

Somehow calling uBPDxw and asking why she hasn't reported abuse - which will almost certainly get replayed for D15 and D15's T and possibly twisted a bit in the retelling - feels like inviting chaos.  Maybe I'm not seeing it the way it's intended?

Imagine if she takes action and makes the call. The investigation would be unlikely to reveal abuse, but would potentially reveal that she's stoking conflict when there isn't any. What happens when a BPD doesn't get their way?  The system is rigged against her!  More evidence of the anti-mom corrupt family court system (did I mention that she refuses to use OFW because it's well known that it's a tool that manipulative dads use to control victim moms?).  i.e., even if the gambit led to some documentation in my long-term favor, I believe that uBPDxw would find a way to double down on her narrative that I'm the bad guy and she's a victim.  It's possible that she might be slightly exposed in the process, but to what good effect?  Destablizing her won't help her achieve a stable relationship with the new guy or be a better parent. I'm pretty sure that calling a bluff on my uBPDxw when she's planning a wedding is more likely to be viewed as me having sour grapes than as a tool to deflate her entitlement balloon...

[kells76]

Hey... I want to apologize for how my last post likely came across. It really wasn't a stabilizing or centering suggestion, and after I thought about it a bit last night, I think what was going on was I didn't have awareness of how my feelings about our situation with the kids sneak into my feelings about other similar situations. So if I'm in a place where I'm frustrated with the kids' mom, or beating my head against a wall, or feeling like there's no good option on the table, that can come across in my feedback to others.

My T had just raised the issue of mandatory reporting with me last week after some stuff I told her I'd heard from the kids about their mom's house. And, H has been in the position before of Mom working out a whole parenting schedule with him, then telling him "I'm afraid you're going to abuse the kids". So that mentality of "then make the  report" was on my mind, along with the feeling of our hands being tied because if we try to use an existing system to help the kids (i.e. then if we make a report), it'll likely destabilize things at their mom's house and entrench the kids (mostly SD15) in defensiveness against us.

So I apologize for posting when I was triggered but had no awareness of being triggered. I definitely have a blind spot and now I'm more aware of it.

I think your perspective here makes sense, and I can relate to it:

uBPDxw would find a way to double down on her narrative that I'm the bad guy and she's a victim.  It's possible that she might be slightly exposed in the process, but to what good effect?  Destablizing her won't help her achieve a stable relationship with the new guy or be a better parent. I'm pretty sure that calling a bluff on my uBPDxw when she's planning a wedding is more likely to be viewed as me having sour grapes than as a tool to deflate her entitlement balloon...

[EyesUp]

@kells - no worries.

Thanks for giving my situation some attention - it's always helpful to compare ideas.  I wish I could offer some productive ideas for you - but as you can see, I'm stymied by own situation.

Also, there may be a time and place where your suggestion is just the right thing. 

In the meantime, I think I need to focus on interactions with D15, how to engage her T, and bringing up the rear on this list is my uBPDxw...

Found out that D13 has covid this AM, so she's home with me and likely won't transition to her mom later today... this will surely be a trigger.  Red alert!  Shields up!

[kells76]

I wish I could offer some productive ideas for you - but as you can see, I'm stymied by own situation.

Then I guess we're in the same boat    as I also wish I could offer some productive ideas for you!

Going "back to basics", if I'm remembering your core question, it's:

how to decide whether to "strike when the iron is hot" versus "ride it out", when D15 at minimum is enmeshed and at worst may have BPD traits?

Is that close?

Have you ever listed out what you'd need to have/know in order to feel an overwhelming sense of assurance that it's time to "strike"? I.e., if you were to put together a list of ideal circumstances for making a big legal move, what'd be on the list?

Maybe at some level you know you it isn't the right time, and your intuition is finding problems with those "legal strike" paths forward, to stop you from doing what would be counterproductive now (but what might not be counterproductive at another time)?

[EyesUp]

Thanks for asking.

For better or worse, my default mode is to avoid legal action rather than plan it.  Why?

If there was egregious/overt abuse, of course I would take action.  But that's the thing with emotional abuse - it's a blind spot for almost everyone, including the family court system, and outcomes are uncertain.

When my uBPDxw first took unilateral action to enroll D13 in a private school (which happened to be where uBPDxw works), I consulted my atty, and of course my atty was ready to go all in and file a motion and said that our judge (in our county, D cases typically remain with the same judge if the parties return for whatever reason...) would not be amused.

However, I've also been advised that judges generally don't like to see "customers" return - and are particularly circumspect when parents return quickly, e.g., less than a year, after first coming to an agreement (as we did) or receiving a ruling.  My interpretation is:  reasonable adults either follow their own agreements or taking rulings seriously - therefore, cases that return quickly to the judge probably involve one or more unreasonable people - and it's not always immediately clear to the judge who is unreasonable (one or both of the parties). 

While my documentation of unilateral activity was very clear, several things gave me pause:
1) immediate action from the judge awarding me primary parent status - which my uBPDxw would almost certainly weaponize, and which the kids would find troubling. they love their mom (enmeshed or otherwise), and would likely develop resentment toward me for limiting their time with her
2) counter motion from uBPDxw with lots of claims re: malnourishment or whatever... leading to appointment of a GAL and all that good stuff
3) orders for family therapy and/or court-appointed therapists for one or more kids - a process that's hit or miss at best, and which I don't trust my uBPDxw to participate in honestly or fairly - for me or for the kids

This is more or less off the top of my head. 

In short, I've been partly invested playing the long game (in time, uBPDxw will get bored or calm down or wander off - and/or the kids will see that I'm safe, stable, etc.), and partly invested in ye olde patterns of mitigating uBPDxw's drama via a mix of greyrock, non-response/no-engagement, or at most, super concise responses.

However, none of this has stopped or mitigated uBPDxw's need to "win" with D15.

Another $0.02 of background context.

At one point almost 20 years ago, before we were married, uBPDxw and I broke up. At that time, one of my best friends and his wife - both friends of mine from college - detached.  Although we remained connected on facebook and would occasionally trade messages.  Fast forward to a year after uBPDxw and I divorced...  I heard from my old friend who read about the divorce from my xw on facebook...  my friend apologized to me and told me that way back when, uBPDxw said that she wanted my friends to be "on her side" and that she never felt good about it, and that later uBPDxw fell out with them, too.  That was eye opening.  At various points, uBPDxw alienated my family, friends, and colleagues - but this was perhaps the only time someone came back much later to tell me that it was explicitly by request.

I have no doubt that uBPDxw wants to "win" with D15 - and all three kids. It's just the way she is. And she'll try to make it happen, even if it's not in her best interest with her fiance or hurtful to the kids.

My avoidant behaviors probably don't help the situation, although I am working to be more proactive and communicative where difficult/emotional stuff is concerned. 

So, no, I've never even considered my criteria for legal action - when I'm basically predisposed to avoid it. If the situation at mom's house was overt abuse, I'd be building a case. But what many of here have to deal with doesn't leave visible bruises - it's much more insidious.  And I don't actually believe that there is a legal remedy for the psychological/social/family dynamics issues in play.

So I put way more energy into exploring how to participate in the family in a way that reinforces the good stuff for my kids - and hopefully mitigating the worst of what uBPDxw brings to the mix.

Last comment: I fear I'm not blameless in this mix - my FOO has a strong dose of maladaptation, which I'm sure contributed to how I came to be in this situation, and which I continue to study (albeit a bit late for my kids' benefit)...  Candidly, if I spell it all out, I probably sound a bit BPDish myself:  identifying issues with everyone around me...  I do fear that it's a weapon my uBPDxw can use somehow:  "well, he doesn't provide a healthy relationship with the kids' grandmother, and he doesn't even speak with his own sister" (well, half-sister).  I don't post about my FOO much, because I've limited my contact with my mother and sister for years - long before the divorce, and long before I read anything about LC or NC in the literature. But nonetheless, the history is there. I do wish I could provide better family events for my kids.

I do think that there's enmeshment and alienation in play.  Is it possible to address one without the other?  Is there a way to approach this other than tiptoe'ing in with D15's T?

Sometimes I think about simply sending over the most inflammatory text messages between D15 and her mom and asking the T what she makes of it.  But then I worry - what if the T simply sees that as evidence of monitoring/controlling behavior - attempting to manipulate the process - thereby validating uBPDxw's likely claim that I'm the abuser.

[livednlearned]

My default is to be strategic, probably to a fault -- I completely understand the thinking behind why you don't want to risk legal action. I would do the same in your shoes.

But I'm wondering if you can use the presence of family law court as imaginary leverage.

I don't know how to phrase this well and I'm not even sure what this would look like, but these circumstances can bring us to the brink of desperation, so I'm in that space here, trying to find a strategy that kind of boxes mom in with her own logic.

For example, what if you suggest doing family counseling with D15?

Maybe that's your in with the T. Ask the T what she thinks of the idea -- she might like it because it puts you in the room with D15 so she can see the dynamic more clearly. Not that she would say yes, or that you would even get permission from mom, but it's you proposing a reasonable solution to a real problem. It gets you in the door by saying: mom says I'm x. If I'm x, can you help me get to y or at least suggest ways to do that? No reasonable person would shoot down a solution to the problem they identified. This flushes out what you know to be true: mom is not a reasonable person.

It's true that family law courts can be a toss up. They can also surprise you. Judges don't like repeat customers but if you come in with a list of reasonable ways to repair the relationship with your kid, you become one of them. You think like a judge would think.

This is just an example: "This mom says her daughter hates her dad: he's negligent and he's abusive. Dad says he offered to pay for a custody evaluator, where he recommends 3 and mom chooses 1. Seems reasonable. Why would she say no? She's saying he's a negligent parent. Something doesn't make sense. Then here, he says he's offering to give up ____ time with his daughter if mom will agree he and D15 go to family counseling. It doesn't work like that, so that part won't work but the solution on balance is reasonable. Why would mom say no? Seems like therapy would help."  

I'm not recommending you solve the problem legally because I agree, courts aren't good at the messy family stuff, especially when things are court ordered and neither mom nor dad get a choice in who they work with.

But I do think it's helpful to use court as imaginary leverage and to keep the prospect of shining light on what mom is saying no to in your back pocket.

Proposing reasonable solutions (that were proposed with a ton of forethought) is what turned my case around. Judges are considered the "supreme" witness in a case, so you are essentially ensuring that they witness what you are witnessing, which is someone rejecting reasonable solutions because they don't want to solve them. Propose reasonable solutions to document that narrative, then tell the story with documentation in court. Meanwhile, hope that your ex will become boxed in by her own logic, which isn't impossible now that a third-party professional is involved. The more sunlight, the better. She has allowed some sunlight in.

Even if you don't go to court, you can still use this approach with other third-party professionals. Find a way to become an ally with the T -- she is invested in D15's well-being. She may not know which parent to trust because D15 is enmeshed with mom.

Your instinct to get in touch with the T seems spot-on. The tricky part is countering the narrative -- asking T for advice to solve the problem mom has teed up and framed.

I don't know if any of this helps. Sometimes just pushing against an idea can help you see a new path that's worth considering.

EDITED to add: Most people who go to court -- repeat customers -- don't propose reasonable solutions. They just don't. Including lawyers. They go to the judge with the expectation that the judge will referee the fight.

What is different is proposing a solution to the problem your ex has identified.

That is rare.

You're not planning to go to court, although it's probably good to keep it in your line of sight just in case -- you're using the same approach in the court of public opinion, which at this point is the T.

It's the same idea, since the T seems to be judging which parent is problematic.

Hope that makes sense 

[EyesUp]

I need a coach.

It's been almost constant conflict since my last post.

D15's T has not contacted me, which isn't auspicious as I identified her and coordinated the initial consultation and onboarding.

Too many things to go into, however today, uBPDxw sent a list of things I've done that she finds problematic - I won't go into it here, but I don't think CPS or anyone else would find the issues she cited as abusive or even particularly egregious.   

As part of her complaint, she mentioned for the first time that she's a mandatory reporter... which I take as a passive threat and an indication that she's actively thinking about how to take some action on this front.

Then, later today, D15 sent a txt (next week is school vacation, the kids are with me):

"i’m not going to xxx with you. i already set up something with my friend and i can stay at her house when mom isn’t home. i have free will and i do not need to do anything with you. i’m staying home."

The kids were with me for the past two days, and just transitioned back to their mom after school.  The text came about an hour after D15 got to mom's house.

In a normal co-parenting relationship, I'd hope to work my X and workshop a response - as this behavior reflects both of us, and can be applied to either of us - or others.

However it's clear that approaching my uBPDxw for, well, anything, is a non-starter - particularly at the moment.

So, I may need to respond to uBPDxw.   And I do need to respond to D15.

Another piece of context - Before I dropped D15 at school this morning, I said "I love you, I want you to be happy next week, please let me know if there's anything you want to do next week when we get back from xxx" - there was no response, but that's par for the course.

This sets a really challenging precedent for the summer - when uBPDxw will go on a honeymoon and the kids will transition to me.  We have about 3 weeks together.  What happens if then-D16 attempts to take more unilateral action?

In my state, emancipation is 18.  Another side, at one point, D15 mentioned that her T basically told her to ride it out until she's 17.  Without knowing exactly what the T actually said, it's hard to say if that was a helpful comment or not...

[livednlearned]

EyesUp, the legal concerns hinted at by your ex. Are they separate in your mind from the relationship with D15?

Meaning, are you connecting something with D15 means escalating what's going on with mom?

Or

Mom's escalations suggest she is in high gear and this is fueling D15.

I know these things are so specific to the context and what you've tried and are already doing, and this is really tense. It might be mom creating this, and I'm also going to suggest a possibility that there is something temporary here too.

The following is a suggestion only -- it reflects something going on with friends of mine (happy, married) and their 15yo daughter, who is wonderful and impossible.

15yo girl life now is vicious. It might be worse with girls now more than it's ever been. Even her real friends in real life can be sharks in a tank not to mention what happens online, a level of vicious I can barely read. What went on for me at age 13 seems to be happening now to girls at 15, there's a definite generational shift setting this cohort back emotionally. That's going to make the secondary importance of you as her parent intensely aggravating because (in her mind) you don't get it, even though you might. Could it be separate from the stuff your ex is doing -- could it be fury about the insanity of her specific age.

I say this only because yes - your wife is engaged in alienation. If you were to extract her from the equation (say she decided to hand parenting over to you for 5 years while she finds herself in the Bahamas), how would you respond to D15? Not to her staying at mom's house, but what if she said this about staying with her BF for a week.

"Ok, I'll miss you! Your siblings will really miss you. You have a plan -- I wish you were coming and I also understand this is important to you. How about going forward when you want to do stuff like this that's well thought out and important to you, we also figure out how a way to do something together a different time?"

Again, I know these things are so specific to our contexts. I guess I'm looking at what might be happening in addition to alienation behaviors and focus there. A bit of a nail biter when the other stuff is happening but it may also center D15 if you suggest something that would be ok under less alienating circumstances.

[EyesUp]

@LNL, thanks - good questions.

From the start, I've been jammed trying to determine when I'm dealing with D15 being a spicy 15yo vs. uBPDxw's influence vs. D15's own behavioral situation, or some combination.

Does it make a difference?  It seems like it does.

My intuition is that my X has whipped up a storm over the past ~3 years, and now D15 has been sucked in and whatever is going on with her 15yo self is feeding energy right back to her mom - so today's mix of messages is all part of the chaos.  It doesn't matter who started it, they are mutually energized by it.

In general, I like your suggestion, and in fact I'm fine with D15 doing her own thing.  I already asked her to tell me if she wanted to make some plans during the break.  I already recognize that we're getting to a point when it's difficult to make plans for D8, 13, and 15 together.  And I accept that it's actually easier and in some ways even healthier to do some things with D8 and 13 without D15.  So I'm less concerned about D15 sitting this one out than I am about how to simply respond in an effective manner.

The suggested script is fine, until we get to "we also figure out a way to do something together a different time?" - that would be met with an immediate "NO.  I don't want to do anything with you, ever. And that's never going to change. You ruined my life. I hate you."

I'm more inclined to go with something along the lines of "and whenever you're ready, I'll always be here, and you'll always be welcome to join" - although that sort of gives her carte blanche to call her own shots, or to assume that I'm fine with her not joining - which in a disordered moment could be reframed as evidence that I don't care about her - see - proof!  Dad didn't even care when I did a, b, c.

A big part of the dynamic is about her asserting independence and autonomy - which is normal and healthy and age appropriate - however she's going about it in a needlessly combative and belligerent way.  I feel like if I was an effective parent, I'd be able to encourage her to see that she can take me up on the offer to make plans during break without turning the exchange into scorched earth.

So, from your vantage point near the front lines of post-pandemic 15yo social dynamics, what should I expect? 

Does this wave crest before or after she goes to college?  How do I support her in any way while this storm continues?   She's already said that she doesn't want any driving lessons with me, doesn't want to visit colleges with me, doesn't want to discuss school with me... doesn't want anything to do with me.  Yet, she mostly follows the parenting plan, comes to my house and bakes cookies and eats what I cook and has no problem sending Amazon requests for all sorts of stuff, which I generally approve (Naturally, I don't love the entitlement behavior either). I give her a ton of space to do what she wants, offer options and choices, and ask open ended questions.

A couple of weeks ago, we were early for her dance class so I asked if she wanted to go to the market to pick out anything for the rest of the weekend - for meals or baking or anything.  Her response was "WHAT?  Don't you think I have any friends?  You need to take me to get groceries because I don't have anyone to talk to at the studio?  Why would you think that?  Of course I don't want to go to the store with you, I just want to go to the studio to see my friends, why can't you just drop me off early?"  Then she blocked her ears, like a 5yo.

It's all a bit gaslight-y and yet also obviously just emoting in an inflamed manner because a) she's anxious about how to ask to get whatever it is she wants, b) she's convinced I'm evil anyway.

I struggle with enforcing some basic expectations about civility vs. worrying that anything I say will be automatically recast as unreasonably critical, invalidating, and reinforce whatever ideas she has that I'm the problem...

So... back to her unilateral declaration of independence for next week.  Is there a way to temper the acceptance with some degree of parental approval?  Or to set some productive precedent ahead of the next skirmish?

[EyesUp]

A possible moment of clarity.

First, I went ahead and re-validated D15 - told her that it's normal for our routines to change, for her to value her increasing independence, and that it's ok to make plans with a friend and to skip the family trip. 

Not sure any of this made a difference, or was absorbed in any way - as I was met with a stone face and silence.  Zero acknowledgement. Nonetheless, I think it was the right way to respond.  @LnL, thanks for the nudge in this direction.

Next, I needed to coordinate with D15's mom on plan specifics. I'm always on high alert around this sort of communication.

I texted my uBPDxw to ask for D15's friend's parent contact info because (and I'm upset with myself for this) I could not find it - after a LOT of searching. I know these people and have met them multiple times, and I'm usually meticulous about keeping contacts - but I just could not find the info, and D15 simply said "ask mom" and refused to assist. I sensed a setup coming.

So I texted D15's mom for the info.

I should have left it at that, but I added "if you feel it might be helpful to nudge D15 away from avoidant behaviors, please give her the number to give to me. Just a thought."

Quickly received a response...  "can't send it now, will send ASAP"

Then about an hour later, "Wow, you are so hard on her. She’s 15 years old, for gods sake. How about you cut her some slack. This week is already stressful for her."

And that's when it hit me: uBPDxw and D15 are deeply enmeshed. They each perceive any conflict with me as an assault on the other, and vice versa.

And D15's mom will withhold the contact info until the last possible moment to ensure that I look bad, or whatever.

I basically already perceived some enmeshment was in play, but uBPDxw's critique really brings it home, because I gave D15 zero push back on sitting out this week, encouraged her to make plans with friends in the first place, and then proactively affirmed to her that wanting independence is normal, and ok, and I get it, and I support it.

Not sure any of this is being hard on D15. 

But uBPDxw sees my comment about avoidant behavior as critical - even though it wasn't to D15.  This was a rare opportunity to do some co-parenting and of course it went nowhere, because it would require uBPDxw to acknowledge an issue with D15, which is akin to acknowledging an issue with herself... it's not going to happen.

And just like that, I realized that whatever bond exists between D15 and her mom may be impenetrable, and that my best bet might be to play things with D15 slow and steady.  I'm not saying "that's it" - just that at this moment, it feels likely. I remain open to any and all possible outcomes...

I was also reminded another small thing last summer:  I learned that uBPDxw asked D15 where shot the case for her airpods, D15 responded "Staples" rather than saying "Dad got them for me from Amazon" - I didn't quite understand why D15 felt the need to do this, except in the frame of enmeshment, it's clear that D15 cannot say or acknowledge anything even remotely positive about me to her mother.

Of course the T remains MIA - probably cannot hear anything I might have to say with D15 screaming in one ear and uBPDxw screaming in the other.

So, what stage of alienation, parentification, etc., is this? 

[GaGrl]

Those are some interesting points. It might be that D15, as the first daughter, has taken the brunt of the BPD tendency to treat children as an extension of themselves. This might have been going on longer than you've been fully aware...for years...but it is becoming more obvious as D15 strives for independence.

How long before it crests? Hard to say. College will be interesting, as your ex may be far too intrusive on D15's life away from home.

[livednlearned]

I added "if you feel it might be helpful to nudge D15 away from avoidant behaviors, please give her the number to give to me. Just a thought."

What about the message do you regret sending? Is it the message itself, or how it's written?

BPD will make things like this feel like lit match on gas, so to speak.   A teen girl won't do much better.

I ask because H ran into this a lot with his ex too. It took a while for him to decide it was worth it to take the extra minutes and re-read and often re-write his messages. He was in locked horns mode (understandable) for the first 5 years or so. It was easier for me to read the message as a neutral party, especially anything that suggested control, which BPDx was particularly sensitive to. Never mind she was engaged in worse behaviors...

uBPDxw and D15 are deeply enmeshed. They each perceive any conflict with me as an assault on the other, and vice versa.

I may be naive but I hold out hope that their enmeshment is somewhat fluid still.

I gave D15 zero push back on sitting out this week, encouraged her to make plans with friends in the first place, and then proactively affirmed to her that wanting independence is normal, and ok, and I get it, and I support it.

A loyalty bind with her mom might look a lot like full-blown enmeshment. I guess because she's 15 and you are working to understand the dynamic, I would hope this enmeshment is not necessarily a done deal.

uBPDxw sees my comment about avoidant behavior as critical - even though it wasn't to D15.

 

I guess like you said, these messages are being shared or at least interpreted and shared directly with D15.

I'm not sure I would've taken "avoidant behaviors" well as a teen girl ... even if it were true.

It's tough to be the less-disordered parent. There is so much worse happening with the other parent it makes it hard to pay attention to other stuff, including things more in our control, like what we say and do. Especially because it's often a long-game effort.

I'm not sure this is a perfect example but it comes to mind: H would drive 5.5 hours to see his son (now 24) and there were times SS24 would text H on the road to say don't bother coming, he wasn't feeling well. Later, I overheard BPD mom complaining via Facetime to my stepdaughter about H. An awful thing to do that to your kid, but the content caught my attention. BPD mom said, "just because he pays child support he thinks he can just walk into my house like he owns it." Of course H didn't believe that, but I asked him about whether he went in the house, and would it help if he didn't. He was really annoyed and hurt to drive all that way only to be turned back. He started to suggest to SS24 that they meet somewhere nearby to see if that made things any better. It wasn't a completely tidy solution to the problem because other things were also ironed out but eventually that relationship improved, not just because of that one thing although I suspect it helped.

This was a rare opportunity to do some co-parenting and of course it went nowhere, because it would require uBPDxw to acknowledge an issue with D15, which is akin to acknowledging an issue with herself... it's not going to happen.

Are you seeing a pattern in your attempts to co-parent like this? If so, it might mean that you two aren't ready yet for co-parenting, even the straight forward stuff. Many of us start with parallel parenting and then at some point there's a relative thaw, which isn't the same as it getting easier per se.

And just like that, I realized that whatever bond exists between D15 and her mom may be impenetrable, and that my best bet might be to play things with D15 slow and steady.  I'm not saying "that's it" - just that at this moment, it feels likely. I remain open to any and all possible outcomes...

What do you mean by slow and steady?

I was also reminded another small thing last summer:  I learned that uBPDxw asked D15 where shot the case for her airpods, D15 responded "Staples" rather than saying "Dad got them for me from Amazon" - I didn't quite understand why D15 felt the need to do this, except in the frame of enmeshment, it's clear that D15 cannot say or acknowledge anything even remotely positive about me to her mother.

That makes sense. Because doing so may make her mom complain about you, and regardless of how D15 feels, I would guess she doesn't want to listen to that. On some level, she must feel fury to be put in a situation that is beyond her role and years.

Of course the T remains MIA - probably cannot hear anything I might have to say with D15 screaming in one ear and uBPDxw screaming in the other.

Can you remind us what the last exchange was about and when it happened?

So, what stage of alienation, parentification, etc., is this?

 

I would wonder how much is about D15 in emotional pain over being a teen, plus the burden she carries for her mom's feelings around the divorce.

SS24 was the most enmeshed and alienated child of H's kids. He moved away with his mom at age 16 and in the last 4 years having lived with her (and her affair partner), he is almost vicious in how he talks about her. There are remnants of alienation that we find puzzling. For example, SS24 will say to me he can't be alone with his dad, and then H will say he's taking the dog for a walk does anyone want to join him, and even if I say no SS24 will chime in that he'd like to go, and off they go together. SS24 will tell me in one breath he's afraid of his dad and then next thing I know he's giving H a noogie and playfighting with him in the kitchen.

Alienation with SD29 ended much quicker because she went away to college and things looked very different once she was out of the house and making sense of things on her own. SD26 developed BPD traits but even so, I thought that loyalty bind was unbreakable. SD26 got her own therapist when she went away to college and that neutral third party seemed to put a lot of mom's behaviors in context.

Would you consider following up with D15 about the avoidant message? I would be curious how she felt and investigate if there is room to repair and recover. Teen angst might prevent her from demonstrating appreciation but a pattern of you being interested in her interior life might chip away at the armor she is starting to wear on a daily basis.

[EyesUp]

@LnL,

Thanks for this, and sorry I'm unable to parse a bunch of excerpts via mobile...

Appreciate the hope that enmeshment may be fluid. I recognize that to some extent, it can and likely will be fluid - like asphalt.  I'm sure that at some point - as you suggest - in college, after college, etc. - uBPDxw will insult D15 or D15's boyfriend - or commit some egregiously controlling behavior - that will nudge D15 toward reality. However that loyalty bind is not going to dissolve easily...

The message to uBPDxw was sent via text - I did not share it with D15.  It's possible that uBPDxw conveyed it, but that's speculative at this point.  We could speculate all day about whether it would be conveyed directly, conveyed with some distortion (usually the case) to weaponize, or simply internalized by uBPDxw as insulting to D15 and therefore also insulting to uBPDxw...

I very, very rarely attempt to communicate with uBPDxw this way.  I knew I was rolling the dice, but still somewhat amazed by how telling the response was in this instance.  Yes, I do see the pattern.  I'm still dealing with uBPDxw's insistence that D13 needs prozac (against the reco of D13's PsyD and T), among other clinical and not-so-clinical parenting topics.  uBPDxw wants control and remains furious that she does not have unilateral control / primary decision making...  she has discussed her feelings with D15, and cited my "poor judgement" and "poor parenting" and "narcissistic self-interest" as problematic for the wellbeing of D15 and her two younger sisters.  It's all documented.

Slow and steady simply means, continue to give D15 unconditional love, flexibility, space, and a very light touch on interest/attention/parenting.  Demonstrate that I can be trusted and make good decisions.  Demonstrate how to be an independent thinker.

D15's T - I believe that last touch point was in late Nov or early Dec ahead of the holidays.  I reached out to ask the T if she had any suggestions for how to best support D15 during the holiday break.  The T's feedback was basically "keep doing what you're doing." 

There has been zero outreach from the T, although D15 once stated that the T thinks that it was "creepy" that I checked in, that the T "is not your side" (i.e., not on my side), and that D15 only needs to follow the parenting plan until she's 17 (not exactly true in our state, but a custody battle for an 18yo is unlikely, so who knows what was said or what the intent was or how D15 processed it). Since I have not heard from the T on any of this, my intuition is that the T validates D15's feelings, more or less maintains the status quo, has no real therapeutic plan or process, and collects her fee.  I expect something like 3/4 of these statements is accurate...

In regard to follow with D15 - not sure there is a repair action needed, as I don't have any direct reason believe that uBPDxw shared the message.  I think D15 is equally avoidant with me, and perhaps also suffering because mom is away.  Last summer, D15 said "no child should have to go two weeks without seeing their mom" re: her feelings about spending two weeks with me during non-camp time.  Of course she's fine going two weeks without seeing her dad...  The point is:  As the enmeshment comes into focus, I think that one of D15's triggers this week, and reasons for not wanting to travel with me and her sisters, was about separation anxiety from mom...

The things I keep in mind:  Things are very good with D13 and D9.  Zero reluctance to travel with me / without D15, and generally super affectionate and happy to be together.  This has also helped to shed light on the unique situation with D15 (golden child with uBPDxw).

The thing I'm most apprehensive of is the corrosive effect of the situation with D15 spreading to her sisters...

The second thing that keeps me up at night is the complete lack of effective antibodies / tactics to combat what's happened/happening with D15, and the long-term consequences for D15's own sense of self, etc.   

[EyesUp]

uBPDDxw is ramping up conflict, and I'm feeling it.

I think I've probably oversold myself on the idea that I can be impervious, and remain on the high road, but let's face it:  Part of the reason I'm here is because I'm still trying to make sense of things, my role in things, and how to go forward.

I think part of the reason my X might be amped up is due to school vacation week and she's simply missing the kids.  But I also know there is more to it. After a period of a relative stability, things have been escalating for a while.

In addition to the recent email with many false or at least exaggerated/distorted accusations in which X noted that she's a mandatory reporter, there have been a series of messages with accusations that take things from zero to warp speed conflict.

e.g., over the weekend, D8 felt nauseous. While I was taking care of her in the bathroom, D15 called her mom.  Mom started calling and texting furiously.  OK, I get it - she's concerned about our kid.  Once I got D8 settled, I called X back and explained the situation:  D8 was nauseous but didn't actually throw up, I would keep an eye on D8 and keep X posted. 

Then, apparently, D15 asked D8 if she threw up, D8 said yes.  To be 100% clear, D8 heaved but didn't actually vomit.  D15 relayed this X, who then emailed me to accuse me of lying.  Meanwhile, D8 is fine - went right to bed, woke up the next day and had breakfast, no symptoms, no issues. 

So I've got strong triangulation going on - a coalition between D15 and X, now engaging D8.  I have to confess, even after all the reading and exercises, in the moment, I have no clue what to do next.  Ignore?  Polite acknowledgement/validation of concerns while stating facts?  Document, again, and move on?

Example two, X asked me to help bring D13 to school after a doctor's appointment tomorrow.  I said, sure, I'll plan to meet you at the doctor's office.  X writes back "I find it astonishing that during our marriage, you would leave three babies alone with me for weeks at a time...but now you don't trust me to go to a routine doctor appointment with our pediatrician of 16 years.  It must be tough to be so bitter and paranoid."

First, D15 is... 15.  That's exaggeration #1.
Next, I never traveled more than 20% of the time, ever.  This was always a sore spot, but she never fails to overstate it.  I also participated in most pediatrician appointments because X was always burdened by it, anxious about it, etc.  I know this pediatrician well.  In X's mind, she's the primary parent and I have no reason to be there, so in the revised history, I was never there...
Finally - insults, disparagement - and, well, accusations are confessions.

So this sets up another conflict-y encounter with X in the presence of D13.  I could sit this one out, but I don't trust X to accurately report D13's symptoms (she talks over D13, doesn't allow D13 to speak for herself, always has an agenda - in short, X just wants the doctor to prescribe whatever she's already decided is best for D13).  This time, it's pretty basic:  We need to see the primary care doctor to get a referral to an allergy specialist for some seemingly idiopathic episodes of rashes.  But whatever X says that gets entered into the record may or may not be helpful - maybe I am paranoid!

It's almost impossible to determine how to proceed.  Go to the appointment?  Don't go?  Help with driving D13 to school so X can get to work faster, or don't help?

Rationally, I have every right to be at this appointment, it's no problem to help get D13 to school - which also happens to be a courtesy to X.  But doing any combination of these things will almost certainly invite some further escalation who perceives a loss of control due to my presence - even when she asked for help in the first place.

Also, D15 declared that she will never speak to me again after she turns 16.  Not sure how she established this date.  Age of emancipation is 18 in my state.  D15's T hasn't communicated at all since late last year.

I feel like I need a coach, because I don't have the bandwidth for all the chaos.  And I really need to find a way to help my kids not get sucked (further) in.

Thanks for following along...

[livednlearned]

EyesUp, can you remind us how long you two have been co-parenting?

I had one kid so can only imagine what it's like to have D15 running interference and fanning conflict. Did you sense how D8 felt about what mom and D15 were saying?

Your ex's enmeshment with D15 is probably dependent to some extent on you being the bad guy. They need you to stabilize their relationship. If you do everything perfectly, they'll need to find a mistake, even if it means inventing one.  

Meanwhile, mom-D15 enmeshment has to be quite painful for D15, something she may not realize until she can't blame you for all her problems.

It's always hard to offer advice because our situations are so specific and complex. My take, for what it's worth, is that you two don't seem ready to co-parent in a joint doctor visit. The more contact there is, the more conflict there is. Mom needs this conflict to regulate her emotions, and to stabilize her relationship with D15 (triangulation).

If you're concerned about perception (alienation forces) with the kids, what do you think of this: "hey, I'm going to follow up with the pediatrician after the visit so I can be involved in your care, but I'm going to let mom take you, ok? I'll be there to take you to school."

This says, "My gift to you is being a leader by minimizing conflict, for you. I do this by making sure you know I'm involved, and I'm making decisions that are best for everyone, especially you. And I don't make you feel bad about the thing I'm not saying, which is that your mom struggles to manage her emotions and we all pay." Or whatever subtext makes sense.

As for your medical/legal concerns, your ex can't make medical decisions without your consent, correct?

D15 saying she would never talk to you after she turned 16 ... any thoughts on what prompted that? How did you respond?

Do you have a mindfulness practice? Even if it's a few minutes so you can give your nervous system a chance to reset?

Unrelated but maybe not ... I'm doing something a bit radical with my son (22) who is autistic/ADHD. I've been walking around with a tremendous amount of anxiety about him and it occurred to me that he's responding to that in ways I'm only being to understand. Meaning, my anxiety about him is part of the problem.

About 6 months ago I decided to make changes. Some are specific to our relationship and situation, but most are about choosing to embody curiosity and calm, and most importantly confidence that he's going to be ok. I'll never know the extent to which this has had an impact on him, but in the last 2 months he's changed in ways I never thought possible. It's almost like my demeanor needed to change for our relationship to change for him to change.

The best way to describe it is that I demonstrate love in all the normal ways, but I also kind of ... ignore him. My hunch is that this small shift meant he had to experience the anxiety instead of me.

Does that make sense?

[EyesUp]

@LnL,

Decree absolute was issued just over 2 years ago.  We separated 6 months prior to that, so about 2.5 years of co-parenting in the context of the divorce.

The doctor's appointment is for D13.  There are a few issues in play with D13:
- X tried to unilaterally enroll her at the school where X teaches. She went so far as to take D13 (then D11) to interview at the school against my wishes, and to have her atty send me a nastygram, which I ignored.  I thought this was in the past, but it came up again this past fall when X commented on me needing to control everything, although she acknowledged that it's too late to revisit for D13 because the school only goes through grade 8, D13 is in 7th grade and transitioning for one year doesn't make sense - even to my X. 
- D13 has an idiopathic allergy that seems to occur more frequently at my house.  I expect that X will attempt to weaponize this as "dad's house is dirty/dusty" etc. with passive comments to the doctor in front of D13.  I feel it's important to be present at this meeting, which is really just to get the referral to the allergist.
- D13 has an ADHD diagnosis.  She gets mostly As and Bs and one C in math. Has good friendships.  Occasionally acts like a 13yo. Last summer, X decided that D13 urgently needed a change in her methylphenidate dosage. I said, ok, let's check with her PsyD.  It took months, but eventually the PsyD said no change and X let it go. The entire time, X berated me for not acting in D13's best interest and interfering with meds.  Now, X insists that D13 should be on prozac. Again, minimal behavior issues.  Again, I said let's follow the PsyD's advice.  PsyD says not presently indicated, but will prescribe a baby dose, like 5mg, if the parents agree. I didn't immediately agree, and suggested that we revisit in a few months. Again, X insists I'm interfering with D13's care and not acting in her best interests.

So, all these things are contributing to X's amped up behavior because she doesn't get to unilaterally call all the shots.  Yet I'm somewhat disinclined not to be present and take action as needed where health is concerned. 

And X is hypochondriac, a frequent flyer in ERs for many conditions which go undiagnosed, and while I may be paranoid, I don't think it's entirely out of the question to get in a munchausen syndrome by proxy situation in which X attempts to over-treat any of the kids for whatever she feels or experiences.  Or to withhold treatment for whatever she hopes to avoid, e.g., D15's (not D13) anxiety is diagnosed but largely untreated - I think because she's the golden child, and X doesn't want to consider her own experience with anxiety, or likely contribution to D15's anxiety.

I like your idea re: message to D13 - I've actually done it. 

The problem is:  It conveys to D13 that mom is the boss, that I'm backup, and it give X free reign to disparage me to the care providers when I'm not present - which then complicates post appointment follow up.  I get the "you have access to the portal" type messages - the providers simply don't have time to schedule two reviews for a patient.  I feel like I need to be present so that X doesn't steam roll D13 into whatever it is that X feels. 

You are right that this is triggering for X, but I don't see an affective way to manage if I'm not present, and I spent 25 years accommodating this crazy - the stakes are much higher now that the kids are getting older, and X's dictating care to the providers.

D15 - turning 16 - no clue.  I've actually heard a couple of different versions of this, one time it was 17.  I speculate that as she's attempting to assert her independence, she's learning about how and when different places allow kids to make their own decisions about parenting time.  Emancipation is 18 in our state, but judges will often listen to a 16yo.  I'm not sure exactly what she's read or heard, but I would not be surprised if X has told her that I'm less likely to fight for parenting time after this point, and that a judge is less likely to support me, etc., as this is exactly the sort of thing that X has been saying to D15, i.e., discussing legal strategy during the divorce. 

I appreciate your point about your son. I will say that D15's behavior has had a chilling effect on the mood in the house when the kids are here. It's hard to be upbeat when D15 is stoking conflict. I already give her maximum space.  She has a large room to herself, and when she's baking or watching TV I tend to give a wide berth - I don't force discussions.

That said, she is definitely triangulating with X.

Yes, I have a mindfulness practice - but it's always a good reminder to practice more... thanks.

[EyesUp]

Got through the doctor appointment today.  Glad I went, as I was able to offer a few notes about what's going on with D13 that probably would have been otherwise overlooked or mischaracterized.

Predictably, on the way out, X made a point of starting a conflict in front of D13.

[EyesUp]

Seeking some feedback on the following situation:  I reached out to D15's at the end of Feb:

"Hello D15 T,

Communication with D15 is increasingly fraught. 

I'd really appreciate any suggestions you might have re: how I can best support D15, and to reestablish trust.  e.g., D15 recently stated that she doesn't plan to speak with me or have anything to do with me after she turns 16.  I'm not sure where that number comes from.  I'm not sure how to respond to statements like this.

Would it make sense to connect directly?

Please let me know your thoughts.

EyesUp"

D15's T responded:

Sorry to hear things are so difficult.  I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know but obviously it would be best if she felt comfortable enough to articulate some of her feelings.  When people shut down it’s usually because they feel threatened by their own feelings or something else, that they won’t be heard, or that the situation is hopeless/beyond repair.  Frequently when people can communicate and feel listened to things can improve/be repaired in some way.  Conflict with authority at her age is not uncommon due to the fight for autonomy and usually dissipated as people mature.  I’ll try to talk with her next Monday and see what might be possible to support whatever feelings she is having, more communication, and any potential healing.


I decided to take a chance while T was somewhat responsive and replied as follows:

"A few notes, mainly FYI.

D15 has frequently cited the fact that I viewed her phone without her consent as her primary concern and violation of trust.  In doing so, D15 ignores the fact that we have (had) a device agreement, that her mom also viewed her phone, or that many parents - including her friends parents - also do this for safety reasons. 

What should have been a "normal" review and repair discussion has snowballed into something much larger, in which D15 states that I'm "psychotic" for viewing her phone.

I believe the thing that particularly bothered D15 about this was the fact that I viewed messages between her and her mom that were disparaging toward me - which dramatically amplified a loyalty bind with her mom.  I've never directly addressed this with my ex wife because, frankly, I don't know how to do it in a productive way. 

I did consult one of the top GALs, who reviewed the communication, and indicated that the persistent pattern was one of the clearest cases she'd seen.  I've not reviewed D15's phone since last July, but I fully expect that the pattern of disparagement has continued.

Moving forward: I've proposed to D15 on a number of occasions that we discuss her phone, and indicated both verbally and in writing, that she will need to fully manage her own device soon, and that I'd like to begin to give her access to passwords, etc.  She has not taken me up on this offer.

Last weekend, D15 asked for help with transferring some photos on to her phone.  In the course of helping her with this request, I pointed out that she already has access to passwords on the phone, and has for some time.  I wanted her to see that I have already provided some trust in her.

My hope is that this will, in some way, help restore trust on her side as well.

However, I remain concerned that effort on my part cannot really help while active disparagement continues on the other side.  If you know of any resources for parents in my situation - books, etc. - I would welcome your input.

Thanks again"

Following this, there has been zero follow up from D15's T.  However, today I received the following text message from D15 - who is presently at her mom's house and is scheduled to transition to my house tomorrow:

please stop emailing my T. it is an invasion of privacy and it is weird. if there was a serious concern about my privacy it would make sense but there is none so you are interfering with my relationship with her and i do not feel comfortable with it. please stop.


I don't want to speculate too much, however the T hasn't really engaged with me in a substantive way.  In parallel, D15's rejection of me has, if anything, increased.

For reference, I found and retained the T with uBPDxw's agreement.  I've not asked the T to report on the details of her dialog with D15, or even to share anything like a diagnosis or treatment plan... only what I've shared above:  some anecdotes about what's happening at home and a request for input on how to best support my daughter.  Thus far, I've received no real response to that question.  However, I did receive an email from uBPDxw that accused me of attempting to manipulate the T...

So my questions are:
- how to respond to D15
- how or if to engage the T
- how or if to engage uBPDxw
- more generally, anything else to consider - above and beyond "be a good dad" and "encourage independent thinking" and "demonstrate trust and give her space" etc.

I am cognizant of a long road ahead with this, but also wary of inaction, and also super wary of D15 (and uBPDxw) influencing D15's younger sisters...

[EyesUp]

I heard from D15's T today:

I just wanted to follow up. It sounds like the steps you described are the right direction to be taking.  Let me know if you want to touch base in the next few weeks.  I am just in the process of clarifying the schedule for next week.  In terms of books, if you enter the term parental alienation in the search bar on Amazon, several books come up.  It might be best to look at those and see which book/books might resonate for you.  I think Understanding Parental Alienation by Stines and Harriman is pretty good.


So many ideas come flooding in...

- I had concluded that the T wasn't going to engage further with me, so this was unexpected
- Amazingly, T appears to support to the idea that D15 is alienated - without explicitly saying so

At this point, there has been no response to some fairly direct questions, no engagement re: treatment plan or approach, and zero proactive communication.

Instead, I get very, very slow follow up - with a bit of validation.

I have to wonder if that's this T's MO:  Just validate everyone's feelings... the patient's, the parent's... 

"Go to Amazon and search" is about the lowest of low value responses, only slightly redeemed by the specific reco for Stines and Harriman (which I actually have not read). 

This is not the way prior Ts have worked, and I'm not sure how hard to push.

I appreciate that she left the door open to connect, although D15 also explicitly told me to respect her privacy and not to email her T - and so I'm apprehensive of taking up the T on the chance to connect, as she obviously reports that I've emailed to D15 - but reports nothing to me.

What am I missing here?   Is this very late response from the T cause for encouragement or alarm?  I mean, surely, any T that actually thinks there's alienation in play would propose some deeper dialog, and sooner rather than later - right?

[livednlearned]

I hesitate to reply because I'm not sure the extent to which I'm projecting my own fears or worries or soothing self-talk.

H and I re-watched Saving Private Ryan and the grisly battle scenes remind me in ways of parental alienation. Advice in one scenario wouldn't work in another. The details matter.

In one scene a medic is wounded and the men are trying to help him the best they can. Captain Miller asks him what they should do.

I feel that way with you. Not that this is a fatal situation but as a parent who has a vulnerable kid and survived unsuccessful attempts at parental alienation, and who has seen varying degrees of it with my step-kids with one being in the severe end of the scale: What is helping?

I'll do my best in responding knowing that you are the one who holds the most knowledge -- you know the people involved, the relationships that pre-dated the intensity of this alienation campaign.

What I will say is this: your daughter's T has sized up the dynamic and she's telling you she's on it. What is challenging is that she's offering you a book to read  . You want 10 units of blood stat and sanitized surgical instruments and sterile bandages and pain meds to prevent the body from going into shock.

What you want -- what I would want -- is action, a plan. Expertise coming from the T about how she plans to proceed. She's obviously trying to build trust with D15 and without that, none of this matters. I also sense T is aware of ethical boundaries. At the same time, she's trying to tell you that she understands what's happening. You've probably successfully represented yourself as a loving, concerned, reasonable, normal-range parent and that defies D15's irrational and probably unsubstantiated cause for pushing you away. Even kids who have a parent who beats them will demonstrate a desire to have a relationship with that parent. Something is wrong and the T seems to be tracking that.

I would get the book and read it and be patient. This is probably going to be a long process that will depend on the growing bond between D15 and T.

You want D15 back now and have these adolescent years with her. I cannot express to you how much I understand.

My son got sick when he was 16 and had three surgeries followed by healing and never-ending visits to wound clinics that lasted almost 4 years. Those wounds were physical. Alienation wounds are harder to see but in many ways they're just as debilitating.

We're 6 years from that experience and still picking up the pieces. S22 will probably be sorting through this stuff the rest of his life.

All of this is to say that I would take the T's message as cause for serious relief and maybe celebration if you can summon just a little levity while this crushing situation plays out. D15's T could've bought into the baloney and she didn't. That's a scenario that is all but impossible to come back from.

It's a silver lining is how I would take it. Once you have an opportunity to connect with T, maybe there will be a collaboration between the two of you to figure out next steps, like working with someone more skilled. It's hard to say and I may be missing the full picture but at a minimum this seems to be a very positive sign.

[EyesUp]

@LnL, thanks for that last reply.  For now, I'll say:  I recognize that this is a long game, and I'm not seeking immediate relief.  I am, however, struggling to identify the right proactive measures - to get out of the constant mode of reactivity.  I understand that the best way to change the dynamic is to do just that - so as long as I remain in reactive mode, a large portion of the dynamic is likely to remain the same, even if I attempt to reframe or redirect or ignore...

Not sure why it often feels easier to reply to others than to address myself - but that's been a great thought experiment for me:  How would I advise someone else to act if they were describing my circumstances.  It's a bit of a blind spot.

All that said, an interesting development today that will almost certainly escalate things with my uBPDxw...

My X has been pushing for D13 (not D15) to take prozac.  It took a while, but we finally found a psychiatrist accepting new patients late last year and completed intake.  Today was the first follow up appt, and my X's agenda was:  start prozac. 

Why?  X states that D13 has acute anxiety.

I don't see it. D13 has ADHD combined with normal 13yo girl behaviors.

Long story short, I was sort of dreading the appt because I expected that my kid was about to get prescribed an SSRI without a clear need or a holistic treatment plan.

Instead...

The doctor told my wife, your daughter: 
- does not present risk of self harm or overt depression or esteem issues
- could benefit from more programmatic therapy - possibly DBT - to develop some coping skills, which fits with her ADHD executive functioning issues anyway
- is not you, and we need to assess her individually - rather than treat her based on what's worked for you in the past

My X was barely keeping it together. Her hands were balled into fists. She stood up and collected her bag at one point, but did not take a step toward the door. She was near tears. But the doctor held firm and proposed a course of action... which we will follow up on.

I have to admit that I was almost glad to see my X behave this way with the doctor, it's immature but there have been so few instances in which someone else sees what I see when X doesn't immediately get her way.

I pushed hard for the doctor to speak with D13's T in advance - after months, they finally connected yesterday.  The T also states that prozac is not indicated.

I also privately sent the doctor a screenshot of D13's latest report card (mostly Bs) anticipating that X would exaggerate... sure enough, at one point X stated "she's failing at school".  Again, showing the doctor who is reliable - or not.

X also offered to have the doctor speak with D15 (inappropriate - and another smoking gun re: how X engages D15...) and also with her fiance.  Not sure how I feel about that...

Ahead of the meeting, I had a short call with X to try to pre-align. I stated that I'm open to SSRIs if the doctor says it's necessary.  Instead of saying, "ok, good" X offered the following:  "you don't see these acute anxiety episodes because I'm the safe parent, so D13 only shares her concerns and behaves this way with me"

While X didn't say this to the doctor (at least, not in front of me), the doctor asked directly:  is it possible that this is a way that D13, middle kid, is getting more attention from mom?  perhaps not consciously?

Mom didn't even hear the question. Too angry.

Amazing.

The whole thing reminded how critical yet difficult and fragile parenting can be - under any circumstances. I'm at once encouraged that I can occasionally, with a bit of anticipation and luck, execute at least part of a game plan. Not sure how this will play out - I expect some retribution from uBPDxw for what she surely perceives as a loss. And the thing that still kills me is: It still hurts to see her in pain. She says that she's worried about our kid (me too!) and she was incredulous that the doctor would not prescribe the drug that X had preselected for a diagnosis that she predetermined. She actually said "failing to take action now is negligent" so I'm concerned she might try to sabotage the doctor and start over... ugh.

On the other hand, bringing this back to D15 - It's even more complicated...   I haven't followed up with D15's T yet - although I just finished the book recommendation, so that's next...

[Ourworld]

Hi,
My child was an honor student until she became 15, we got along, and she was reserved. We moved back to Texas and suddenly her behavior became erratic, she threw herself at the boys and she argued incessantly with me in the car over nothing.
Her grades fell from a 3.75 GPA to a 2.8 GPA!
I thought these things were due to her age and a different school system, but I now realize this BPD stuff was beginning.
Once she left for college at age 17 (her birthday is October 3rd), she had horrible back-to-back traumas immediately, the first was being date-raped

My daughters father totally abandoned us when he called me to say he was not coming home, then died in a car accident 3 years later, I did not even tell her he died because I did not think she cared, but I can see now that it did matter to her!

If you see any of these signs; erratic, sexual, and uncontrolled behavior and a drop in her grades, take heed and get her into counseling.
I wish I had.

I wish you the best!

[EyesUp]

@ourworld - thanks for your words.  D15 and D13 do have individual therapists.

[EyesUp]

General update:

I spoke with D15's T for the first time in a few months.

One of her comments was: D15 is very angry.  Any change needs to come from her. 

I know all of these cases are individual and there is no single way to counteract a loyalty-bind, enmeshment, or other unhealthy attachment dynamic that may contribute to alienation... However it's interesting to me that in all of the literature on this topic - from generalists, to clinical psychologists, to legal professionals, there are scant suggestions about what to do - other than to seek help from professionals - and what to avoid (don't take it personally, don't yell at or punish your kid, don't attempt to engage the alienator's network, etc.).

It's like the alienation industrial complex is a bit like mafia protection - pay us, we'll help you.

Even BPD has slightly more prescriptive options for interaction and potential treatment - CBT/DBT, etc.

The experts who publish on this topic do a great job of describing the dynamics, and even explaining how it happens - the motivations and tactics of alienators are well understood.  But they stop short of explaining any antidote or countermeasure.

I'm really missing my kids this week, as they are with their mom for April vacation. I'd like to somehow put this time to use to focus and somehow make a plan. Taking the high road ain't cutting it, and I'm not ready to accept that my kids need to find their own way through this damage over the next 10-20 years. 

[kells76]

This is the most difficult stuff. You have a lot of variables going on; the fact that she's 15 is not a small thing.

Going back to your original question, of if D15 has BPD, have you read Blaise Aguirre's book Borderline Personality Disorder in Adolescents yet? My takeaway was that understanding the function of the behaviors is important, as many impulsive yet "developmentally normal" teen behaviors appear on the surface like BPD behaviors. What function is doing X (reckless driving, drug use, backtalk, sneaking out, etc) serving? He also talks about your question -- is it BPD or not -- and makes some parenting recommendations either way. My sense is that it's not like chemotherapy, where if you don't have cancer, it'll really hurt you. Parenting a child "as if" the child has BPD likely won't make things worse if the child doesn't. Unfortunately the book deals with situations where both parents are on the same page about the approach; it doesn't touch on when parents are divorced and the child has BPD-type issues.

The other book I thought of for your situation is Combating Cult Mind Control: The Guide to Protection, Rescue and Recovery from Destructive Cults by Steven Hassan. I'm not saying that having a BPD parent is equivalent to being in a cult necessarily. I think what I'm getting at is you have so many moving parts going on, and each person you speak to or book you read or site you visit "kind of" helps with part of your situation, but nothing really helps with everything. You may find that reading outside of BPD literature could give you perspective on an approach to try (or a piece of an approach to try) with D15 that could inch you forward.

I haven't read Hassan's book in a few years but the preview jogged my memory -- that his approach isn't convincing others that they're seeing things wrong, it's saying "Look, you're telling me that you're making these decisions out of your own free will, that you're thinking for yourself, and that nobody is pressuring you. OK, so then there shouldn't be a problem with us talking about your beliefs? If I point something out to you, then you can handle talking about it and thinking about it, right? If your beliefs are sound, then there won't be a problem with applying this decision-making toolkit to them." It's a respectful approach that "assumes" the person has curiosity and research skills.

He steers away from the "deprogramming" or "intervention" approaches, and has tried to build a legal, ethical, and respectful approach to intervening with loved ones totally taken in by harmful groups.

Interestingly, it strikes me as similar to Dr. Xavier Amador's book I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help!, in that both books emphasize that fighting delusion head-on through logical argument, force, coercion, and convincing, aren't effective.

While neither of those is a solution on its own, maybe you can roll some of their ideas into your approach. Both books can be fast reads; I'd recommend taking a look if you haven't yet.

...

I can say that even for us -- where SD18 from age ~6 had told H "you're not my family", would defend Mom, would blame Dad, would use Mom's language of "you left us", would refuse what minimal parenting time and overnights H had, and seemed 110% sucked into the "shared family mythos [delusion]" between Mom and Stepdad -- SD18 is now open with us that she does not like the environment there, if SD15 wasn't there she probably wouldn't be either, she wishes Mom and Stepdad would be actual adults parenting, and that it's high conflict over there. I'm not saying "sit back and do nothing, it'll work out" -- SD18 and SD15 will have a lot of pain to work through -- but more to say that even us, fumbling our way through, with minimal time with the kids, with minimal avenues to point out the toxicity, with no custody or decision making, and with 180 degree different cultural beliefs, have seen SD18 start to come back around.

...

Has D15 texted anything else telling you not to talk to her T?

Did you let the T know that you'd read other material on alienation?

And is D15 still doing parenting time with you?

[EyesUp]

Hi Kells,

I thought I responded a while ago - apologies - thanks as always for your thoughtful comments and suggestions.

Updates...
- I'm about halfway through Aguirre's (Wrath of God?) book. 
- I've been testing the indirect deprogramming approach.
- D15 has not made any additional comments about her T or me communicating with her T, although I don't have visibility to their meeting schedule. Still, could be an indication that the T has tightened up her approach, if that's what you were getting at.  TBD.
- D15 is still with me 50% of the time, but consistently seeks ways to transition back to her mom early
- uBPDxw ignored the schedule and booked spring break travel with kids partially during my parenting time; subsequently agreed to makeup days - 2nd week in May.  I'll be watching to see how D15 responds to "extra" time with me

A new development is that uBPDxw scheduled a meeting with D13's school counselor - she mentioned it via email, but didn't forward the meeting invitation or zoom link and I missed the meeting - which is on me.  The upside is that I ended up with a 1:1 meeting with the counselor who stated that no anxiety is present, D13 is a great kid, etc.

In parallel, D13's PsyD has communicated 1:1 with me that she does not see anxiety, but does see disparagement, etc., from my uBPDxw...  her eyes are open, and we had a candid discussion about validating uBPDxw's feelings without necessarily prescribing prozac simply because it's what the mom wants.  Encouraging. 

I'm going to sit with this for a minute. 

Which brings me to my question du jour...

In our last session in March, D13's PsyD mentioned that one of D13's biggest concerns is "when her parents fight" - I don't think uBPDxw even heard the comment in the moment, she was enraged that the doctor had not capitulated to her demand for prozac...   

In the course of follow up with uBPDxw, I returned to this:

"D13's doctor noted that one of D13's biggest concerns is "when parents fight" - What can we do about this?

Please let me know how I can help reduce conflict?  I don't expect that we'll always agree, however I'm open to dialog about how we cooperate.

Thanks for considering."

Days went by, but today I received the following response from uBPDxw:

"I am confused about your question re/ "when parents fight."

I am sure that this WAS a concern for D13, and anxiety-producing, as I am sure it was with all the kids...when we were living together.

The reality is that the kids do not see or hear us fight anymore. We don't see each other, so we don't have much time to fight. I am unclear on how this impacts D13 in her day-to-day life. I accept that it is a past Trauma that should be addressed in therapy, but I don't see how this is a current issue that we should be doing something to change. We already changed it."


I'm still letting this one sink in.

This comes from a person who never misses a chance to give side-eye at transitions or in situations where we are both present - as baseline behavior.  The kids routinely see an overt  show of distress or dismay or disapproval (X toward me) whenever we're both present.

And there have been instances in which my X has overtly started arguments in front of the kids - when we had to renew passports together, for example.

Taking a minute to decide how - or even if - to respond to this one.