What was your first red flag?

[VirtuousWoman]

Virtuous Woman - ignoring a lack of consistency between words and actions (ie Integrity) is a pretty big thing to ignore... .   and looking from this thread not uncommon.

Because this isn't a venting thread - and focusing back on ourselves.  Why do you think you ignored this lack of integrity and why do you think what looks to be a lack of good judgement among us, the ex-partners, is so common?

In making reference to my consumer/salesman comment to answer this question, it's because the potential mate (salesman) zones in our (consumer's) wants as the focal point of their sale's pitch to cloud our thinking so we can't think straight. We would like to think the person we are talking to is giving up the same level of honesty that we offer, but that's not always the case and we don't recognize that until we get our head focused. But by that time, it's too late; emotions are invested and it's hard to break free.

Hope that makes sense. Just my opinion... .  

[GreenMango]

Whenever someone is giving themselves a good review, chances are they are not telling the truth because they are trying to cloud your judgement by giving you a false impression of themselves verbally

Don't most people during the honeymoon put out an unrealistic picture of themselves - I've heard it called making it good impression.  Then the relationship settles in and next thing you know your partner is farting in front of you.

The way you are talking about it sounds predatory.  It still begs the question when you saw it the first time - words and actions not matching - did you stay?  Or was it a one and done?

[VirtuousWoman]

I did stay, even when I knew some of the things he was saying were so far-fetched that it was almost comical. I took into consideration (like you said) he was trying to make a good impression, or rather an impression of the person he thought I would be attracted to. In my case, his impression was a mask to hide the real him, which was the total opposite of the picture he paints of himself. When the farting stage came about, he still would say the same things to give that first "good" impression, but his words did not line up with his actions.

Like for instance, a person who cannot go into a restaurant with you in a particular location because they don't want to run into some people who were after him does not walk up and down the streets in that area late at night wearing headphones. It just doesn't make sense. If a person is worried about being jumped, I'm sure they would want their ears clear and free of any distractions, don't you think?

That's just one example. There were many more horrendous lies that didn't get exposed until much later. By that time, my heart lost interest. I wasn't attached anymore, I wasn't trying to make him chance, and above all, I lost all hope that he would and just cut my losses and left him.

[VirtuousWoman]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that so-called good impression was because he was living a double life; he didn't want to run into the other woman or anyone associated with her... .   however, he sold himself off as a person that hates cheaters.

[seeking balance]

Like for instance, a person who cannot go into a restaurant with you in a particular location because they don't want to run into some people who were after him does not walk up and down the streets in that area late at night wearing headphones. It just doesn't make sense. If a person is worried about being jumped, I'm sure they would want their ears clear and free of any distractions, don't you think?

yeah, I remember those kinds of examples - just left shaking my head.

For me, I got too serious too quickly - didn't take my time - what about you Virtuous Woman?

[VirtuousWoman]

To be honest, the last relationship started so quickly that I didn't have time to process it all. Within weeks, he was moving in without me giving it a second thought. My problem was having too much pity for him. All the sad stories (which later found out were not true with the way he explained it) brought out the helper in me and I just had to try to help. The only problem with someone telling you sad stories about their life is that there is no way to verify what they're saying; you just have to take their word for it. I wasn't looking to get serious right away, but he seemed to want me to hurry up and start thinking serious while he wasn't on that level himself.

[seeking balance]

I wasn't looking to get serious right away, but he seemed to want me to hurry up and start thinking serious while he wasn't on that level himself.

Had you done things you didn't want to do to make someone else happy before this relationship?

[VirtuousWoman]

Had you done things you didn't want to do to make someone else happy before this relationship?

Actually, that is my nature. And I will still do things to make someone happy as long as it does not go against my standards, morals, and principles without looking for anything in return.

[GreenMango]

VW sounds like he pushed your boundaries until you relaxed them to accommodate his wants.

Moving in too soon even though it was too fast. 

Do you think the boundary issue is something that allowed this relationship to continue? 

[VirtuousWoman]

GreenMango is right; letting him slide past those boundaries caused all kinds of issues I was not prepared for. It became too overwhelming for me as he thought that like a child on that level ("If she let me get away with it before, why stop me now?". That's how the relationship ended up continuing until I put my foot down and said enough is enough.

[haliewa1]

After dating for four weeks my exBPDgf wanted me to take her parents to dinner at the fanciest restaurant in town half way across the country.  I did and had fun but come to find out it was all for the affect to intimidate the mother of my ex and put her in her place since at the time I had held a high position in a prominent organization.  I wasn't getting it!  We returned back to the coast and I was asked if I could come up with $5800 dolllars to pay taxes that are due.  The next day, after a heart to heart discussion, I found out that my exgf had a DUI, foreclosure and lost her job in the last three years.  The pieste resistance is when she asked if I minded if she spoke with her ex-boyfriends.  What do you think I said?  I'm better off living in the darkest mountain cave in the middle of nowhere than I would be living with that individual for one minute!

[GreenMango]

Haleiwa because this thread is being moderated so it doesn't turn into a bunch of battled hardened warriors comparing war wounds I'm asking each person that posts to also think back ---

to why after getting these glaring kinds of red flags you continued in the relationship?  What was it that kept you engaged? 

[mtmc01]

As far as why I stayed in the R/S despite my ex making me promise her I'd never leave her within the first week of meeting... .   I thought I'd met "the one", and I was willing to overlook a whole heck of a lot. Finding someone I had this strong (or so I thought) of a connection with had been a lifelong struggle for me, and I sure wasn't going to let it go over some clinginess. I thought that she must have just had a troubled past, and maybe I really was that "white knight" that would make her whole again. I also had my own issues with emptiness and bad self-image, so having someone that seemed extremely attached to me and that I inferred by these comments would never leave ME was very, very comforting. If only I knew... .  

[GreenMango]

Thank you MTMC . Those flags go both ways.  It's hard to admit sometimes those things.  It's way easier to say it was all them - do a little black and white thinking ourselves sometimes.

Takes courage to admit things like that and dig deep.

[sad but wiser]

Feeling insecure sucks.  It's an awful place to be and really vulnerable.  I bet it felt good to have some kindness. 

Do you think that insecurity and neediness at that time may have clouded your judgment a bit when it came to looking at him warts and all?

Without a doubt, Green Mango.  But there was also a sense of responsibility.  I mean, the man had been through so much and was trying to get custody of his young son.  He seemed to be such a devoted father, and his mother was very ill, too.  Part of me just couldn't look at all the red flags and say, "Um, no thanks."  I was the classic rescuer, girl style. 

Thanks for the steering on this subject.  The post is obviously much better and more open this way. 

[sad but wiser]

That was my first red flag, an ex who was stoned, drinking wine, and just wanting to do me. I worked in law enforcement for 20 years, and have an excellent eye for when people are a bit off. I knew she was then. The next day she called me and asked me how I felt. I said I felt guilty. She said that is not what she wanted to hear.

It is hard to explain how these people manage to work their way into your life, isn't it?  And how the crazy looks rational at times... .  

[GreenMango]

Nothing against supporting someone. 

Hey I become a rescuer.  I was bailing water as fast as he could poke holes in the bottom of the boat.

It's these kind of combos that make a relationship like this work.  Imagine if you never fell for the pleas for help and just maintained a healthy level of adult interdependence.  I think about this.  I don't think the relationship would have gone anywhere.

[sad but wiser]

You are right on track there, green mango!  I am just the type to mistake sympathy and concern for romantic love.  Maybe it is the downside of deep emotions.

[Hutsepotmetworst]

Red flags... .    

The start of my r/s with exBPDgf was one red flag as a whole... .  

SHE contacted me through a datingwebsite (second time ever a woman contacted me, first time was by mistake ;-)

After a few messages SHE insisted on going on a date with me.

On our second date she invited me for dinner at her appartment. I found that very naive and strange behaviour for a woman.

After that dinner we had sex the whole night long. Really, I couldn't believe what was happening to me !

Why did I go with all that ? I spent 10 years in a sexless marriage with a woman who had no interest in my life, or feelings and it all seemed all too good to be true... .   So eventually it was 

I really had a deep desire to be loved, to be wanted.

Now I know what caused this desire, and working on it.

[healingmyheart]

Green Mango,  

I agree in that it's important to self assess and see why we stayed after the red flags were staring us in the face.  I would have those light bulb moments when I'd see the red flags but yet deny them.  I so wanted to live again and be happy.  I had been married for 20 plus years but the last 8 or so were spent as me being a caregiver to my sick husband.  I had felt lifeless for too long.  So this good looking, funny, athletic, compassionate man walks into my life and seems to adore me... .   of course I'm going to run with it.  So what if he has a little temper and rages every once in a while.  Most of the time we were happy and doing fun things.  We even jumped out of a plane together... .   something I'd never have the courage to do alone.  He brought me to new heights in so many areas... .   he helped get me in the best physical shape I've ever been in by helping me train and doing 5k's, etc.  

It wasn't until the "hate" stage that I no longer could deny the major defects in this man.  I became very codependent on him... .   that is my defect.  

I'm digging deep in counseling right now to uncover my issues.  I'm going to divorce and recovery to help me move forward.  I was never married to this man (thank goodness) but the principles of "recovery" still apply.  I've also found a codependency meeting which I'm going to start this week.

I'm trying really hard to fix me because I don't want another BPD in my life.  I want normal and right now that's not what I'm attracting.  In fact I've recently become friends with a women who is going through a horrific divorce.  I felt sorry for her and so reached out to her and we've become friends.  I'm noticing some weirdness in her that bothers me... .   others are seeing it too.  She actually had a confrontation with my neighbors this weekend which was so wrong.  My son was here and I told him that lately I've had a lot of crazy people in my life.  My son's comment was "well, you know mom, crazy attracts crazy."  

[fromheeltoheal]

She told me her 17 year old daughter was her best friend, and her 15 year old son was her second best.  That struck me as a little weird for a 45 year old woman, no boundaries and all, but I was lonely and susceptible.  Turns out later that she did have no boundaries with her kids and was on their level emotionally, and that was only the tip of the iceberg, but that's her.  The lesson for me is to slow down, don't take things at face value; love is a sustainable emotion that grows and deepens as time goes on, in a healthy relationship, and barging ahead full steam, ignoring my emotions, will get me screwed.  Water finds it's own level, and my level has risen thanks to her "lessons."

[sad but wiser]

Very well said, heeltoheal!  I do think we all rush in so quickly that we are hooked before we let ourselves know what is happening.  We all need compassion and companionship.  Human beings are relationship oriented from day 1.  This board helps me slow down with others in my life, because you all are here, even if I don't know your real names.  This board has some of the kindest people I have ever met posting to it.  People don't have to take time out of their days to encourage others, but the people here do.  Thank you all!

[theboro504]

My first red flag was that I was attracted to her.

[mitti]

I don't really know what ought to have been a red flag. it's easy in hindsight to look back and remember little odd things that all combined form a huge red flag, but one at time they needn't have been a worry, right?

The one time I really did see a red flag was when he exploded over something minute after having been this perfect, wonderful sweet man for weeks. That to me was bizarre and a little unnerving but he didn't stay mad for that long the first time and although we had had 6 of those almost totally unprovoked outbursts in the first two months I stayed because I thought I might be too sensitive due to a dysfunctional marriage years earlier.

[Dave44]

My first red flag was that I was attracted to her.

I 'd!

[Surrender]

One of the first red flags was how he referred to all his exes and woman that were attracted to him as being so utterly drop dead gorgeous that they were model runway material. He was so explicit in making sure I knew that every female creature that couldn't resist him were beyond gorgeous babes. This was a recurring form of expression when talking to me about his past or about the girl in the grocery store.

The other red flag was how he told me that I was the first woman in over a decade that was one of a kind and respectful. He referred to all his female experiences as whores and wasted liars incapable of truth or integrity. I thought it was extreme and strange.

Red Flag: He cut every connection he had and basically exiled himself except for his family and me.

Red Flag: His response when I spoke about having a past before him. The continued result of that response from that day on.

The list is endless and it all baffles me how blind love can be. How purposely we blind ourselves just to be and feel that Love.

[refuge]

ive said this before, but i suppose it deserves repeating ... .  

thinking to myself one day-

"Hmmmm... . wait a minute, somethings not right... . Shes way to hot for this to be so easy!"

[theboro504]

My first red flag was that I was attracted to her.

I 'd!

I am only half joking... .   sadly

[syz]

I can say in retrospect several things were at work.   My ex non gf is insisting I needed the adoration but that simply wasn't it.  I've searched myself and it isn't a tendency in my make up.   Now my ex was raised by a possibly BPD mother and definitely BPD older sister so her projections and communication were mucked up by these people. So while I'll listen to her observations about me I'm not sure she is really giving me an objective self reflection so to speak though I do take her criticisms into consideration.  See uBPD person in my life became a friend of mine about the same time I started dating my ex and was into me from the start though I didn't see it.  And unfortunately it did damage to my primary relationship.  

Here are the facts:  I didn't see any red flags until about 9 months into the friendship we simply weren't around each other enough.  when it came to light she was into me it caused major problems with my gf to continue to have the friendship understandably.  Mistake #1 This in turn caused way more drama with my uBPD friend than it should have.  She kept trying to make it all about her and how it was affecting her.  And I said I understood but I was the one caught in the middle and she was the one who felt the need to confess her real feelings and did she not think that would have consequences?  Basically it became untenable and I had to let the friendship with her go for the duration of the rest of my relationship.  She lashed out at me over this.  I don't believe a real friend would have.  Once my relationship was crumbling on its own a year later we reconnected.  Mistake #2

I didn't have many friends because I have moved about every 5 years to different states or cities due to my job.  so maybe I was a bit more lax and open than usual.  If I had my best friends of 20 and 15 years in the same town I would have had much less time for this person.  And more balance in my life.  So for the sake of having a friend, one that I did enjoy and care about, but put up with more drama than usual because frankly I was lonely.  Mistake #3.  

The fights with uBPD friend annoyed the hell out of me.  Usually ended with me angry and telling her to get a freaking grip and that she was crossing my boundaries by not respecting my space.   Eventually she was willing to work it out.  Probably because this whole time I cared less about the relationship than she did.  But overall I found her perspective skewed about the meanings of my behaviour comments or whatever.  I was getting weary of it.  It blew up about 1 time a month which in my opinion is way too much for friendship.  At some point I thought it was like she had a processing information disorder (reading or listening)... . which turned out to be the case.  So I for a time let some of that behaviour around it slide.  Mistake #4

Eventually, I took it sexual once she moved far away and my ex and I had broken up,  (mistake #5-8) this I still question and basically I think I was bored and wanted to have some fun if she was up for it.  So we had a lot of phone sex.  i said I didn't want a relationship and this was going to be casual.  :)idn't mean I wanted to screw around with other people but that this was for now for as long as it was going to last.   Boy did that blow up in my face.  I'm just not one of those people that can have casual and not have it go south.  Seems I pay for minor infractions while other people get a lot more leeway in life.  So be it.  I paid the fine over two months we were involved.  It got ugly, she pulled some strange stuff.  I tried to salvage it a few times and finally I gave up just couldn't do it anymore.  Of course I am guilty for abandoning the friendship once again (the other time being when it was hurting my relationship)  

yes I lost a support system albeit a troubled one that kept me on the phone processing for hours.  But I feel fortunate I didn't fall for the love bombs, or fall in love at all, or want a relationship that was totally filled with that much crazy, out of balance, dynamic.  She has made a few recycling attempts to get me back into her life and I've rejected them and that is when my phone blows up with the crazy dramatic accusations that turn mean.  Like that a friend of mine informed her I was a user and would turn things around on her and make her feel like it was all her fault (no friend of mine would do this and we hardly had any friends in common only a few acquaintances) or that she was justified in cutting me off from staying with her in the middle of my move across country because I had given her married friend a blow job at her place while out visiting her (I'm a lesbian who was cheated on in the past so these things are pretty much non starters) Of course I tell her I don't want this drama from hell in my life and thank you for proving my point.

So to some degree I'm hard on myself for not figuring it out sooner and it costing me so much.  But overall I'm able to forgive my lack of resolve based on some of the other factors.  Its not easy to totally ignore her though I have blocked her on fb, phone etc.  I get an email now and again.  Namely she was just diagnosed with a chronic debilitating disease (and I don't think she is lying because I saw the symptoms over the last 9 months and told her to see a specialist)  I do feel bad not responding to her bad news.  That isn't like me as a person or a friend but I don't want to encourage her at all.  I feel bad for her because I know her self esteem is in the bucket.  She just went through a major round of testing that proved she had a major learning disability as well as showing her IQ was lower than she expected (which I think galled her), her thyroid was attacked by a virus about 10 years ago and she has gained tons of weight she can't get off, she was diagnosed with a chronic debilitating disease that is unable to be cured but only managed which will keep her from being able to work out much and doing a lot of the things she wants to do.  And at a minimum she has GAD though obviously I suspect uBPD based on her other behaviours.  

I can say I feel some shame.  She has accused me of being a user, a mind___er, and a deceiver only wanting the friendship when it was convient for me among other things.  And of course I question myself because I wasn't in a stable place with regards to my breakup, work falling apart, and wanting to move.  Though she knew all of this and I not only didn't pretend I was anything but I also warned her I wasn't in the best of places.  I didn't use her per se in the traditional sense.  I wasn't out for just myself but I went in knowing her feelings were way stronger than mine.  And that was dumb.  But I figured long distance phone sex is not a relationship though it certainly takes things into a different place.  She tanked fast, couldn't handle it, freaked out, stressed over every little shift in the relationship.  And I felt I owed it to her to talk it out to help her not feel so frazzled but it started to feel abusive to me keeping me on the phone for 8 hours fielding accusations about how I was trying to screw with her somehow or was taking advantage of her.  That I wasn't "proud to be with her"  and on that count she was right.  I wasn't proud.  I didn't want to think of us as any kind of couple.  I had no intention of being her girlfriend.  But that doesn't mean I didn't care about her at all or tried to keep her in this thing against her will.  I was willing to let it go for her piece of mind so she'd feel okay which just sent her into a whole other universe.  The bottom line is I wasn't in love with her and being with her was like being in a Koybayashi Maru loop of reality. 

[Hellothere]

To reply a bit more after Green Mangos' update  

I ignored the red flags because of my genuine belief that if she had a good relationship, all the bad would go away.  I just didn't realise quite how broken she was... .   and she was good to ME, so I never worried about red flags in our relationship.

I don't think it was anything self-serving, except for genuine naivety that she could feel better if she just had good circumstances around her... .  

One interesting thing though, I do find that when people have a tough life, I want to show them the good that is in the world.  I don't necessarily want to fix them, but I want to share happy stuff to help them realise that there IS good in this world. x

Yeah, as much as It hurts to say, this was pretty much my whole take on things.

Needless to say, papercup with a hole in the bottom analogy rings true here. No matter what I did for her and her son it was never, ever enough or get this- too much of the wrong thing?

1st red flag was probs telling me all about her ex and our first date, then the 1st major major one I ignored was her throwing about the presents I had bought for her on Xmas day, infront of her 2 year old son. I'd known her two weeks and couldn't possibly know exactly what to buy her, I was sick but she managed to mke me forgive her... .