Are you aware when people are projection onto you?

[Maryiscontrary]

In my journey to get over this trauma, as well as my issues, one thing is really sticking out as I really pay attention to what people say and communicate.

I find the "projecting" very prevalent. For instance, with dating and writing people back and forth about such, there is an enormous amount of projecting these guys do. I say I don't want anything serious very clearly, and they ignore this and create fantasies of how they think I should feel. This is weird. I say very clearly what I want. The guy agrees, then immediately starts falling in love, planning futures, and doing other weird things. This has happened more time than I can count.

Then there are other projections. These group of old guys whom I have coffe with once a month start making up tails that  I am involved with one old guy or another of the group. I mean, there is absolutely no evidence of this.  Zero. It is hilarious it is so distorted.

Then my beloved friend, who is gay, starts in on me last week. He says I carrouse and Tom cat around. I told him that this was blatantly false, and that the reality was that he Tom cats around. Again, I am not taking offense, because this is so stupid.

The fact is I am alone a big part of the time. I talk to guys and have had some boyfriends, but seriously, I am alone a huge part of the time trying to recover.

Another gay friend a couple of weeks ago was taking about meth, as some relative of his has some problem or something. I have never taken meth, or anything hard at all, and he basically did not believe me. Known him almost a decade, and he has not witnessed anything nefarious. He still did not believe me. However, I think he dabbled in meth in his younger years.

Another friend, we have been friends since we were twelve. She told me I was like a mother to,her young daughter. Because this friend lives so far away, I really do not know her beautiful daughter. We only really converse a couple of times a year.

When I said that I was more like an aunt, she insisted no, I was like a mother. I mean, this is not reality.

I am seeing this level of fantasy a lot of people around me live in that I was not aware of before. I really make strong attempts not to synthesize assumptions without really strong evidence. I am paranoid, but people have really exploited my blind spot and have ruined my life, so I need to be careful.

What does this say? I really don't understand it.

[hithere]

I am not sure all of your example fall under the same sort of projection that seems to happen in a BPD relationship.

I found that my person with BPD would often project her feelings and insecurities on me because she could not deal with these feelings.

When you talk about guys on dating sites ignoring what you say and going on about future plans I think it is more of them just feeding you a line, saying what they think you want to hear.  In the case of the rumors the old guys mention it is just a case of gossiping or wishful thinking, not really projection.

I could be wrong but these are my thoughts on it.

[ennie]

I think projection is a major way that we relate to important new experiences.  We are prediction machines, constantly trying to read the cause and effect patterns that have gone before to predict what will happen next.  As children, we are in a receptive state, so the first things we learn tend to be used over the course of life as filters to interpret new information.  When we are in a receptive state, we learn new information and our picture becomes richer.  So now I have learned not only that fire is hot, but that it is hotter from above than below, I know various kinds of burns it can inflict, how to safely handle it.  But sometimes I have an experience where I learn something new about fire.  But the only things I know are what has happened, what others tell me, and what I learn by being present.  If All that I know about the future is a projection, me taking what happened and projecting it out.  My experience with extremely receptive states, like meditation, is that sometimes we can actually be paying such close attention that we operate for some moments without these filters, and if we do this often, we recognize that our filters are just extrapolations, with no particular likelihood of being correct next time. 

My impression for people with BPD and other very traumatized folks is that stuff that happened early in life was so huge and so important to remember that it kind of stuck the person with that filter.  I know that with the BPD ex of my husband, she was terribly abused by her mom and abandoned by dad, so her experiences of life threatening danger occurred in what should be safe territory, and with parents who also gave love to further confuse matters.

The "black and white thinking" BPD people do is actually very much like the natural quick, strategic thinking we do when our basic well being is threatened.  When we are scared, many of us narrow down our perceptual field and focus on action. 

My thought is that because there was extreme danger associated with intimate, cozy experiences for the BPD person in my life, her field is most often narrowed such that she is most of the time attempting to identify danger instead of learning from new experiences.  It is like she is involved in a perpetual easter egg hunt, never noticing the flowers... .   only, the eggs are rotten.  Coupled with excessive alcohol use, this has resulted in her coming into her 40s with few instances and examples with which to form predictions, and very little of that more raw experience that can lead one to a conclusion that extrapolating only takes us so far.  A further confounding factor is that her dysfunction attracts people who are there to further abuse her, and she perceives people as abusive when they are not, so she provides further validation for her hypothesis that people who love you are mean and want to hurt you, as her mom did. 

By contrast, I have not had a lot of trauma and have been pretty open to learning from new experiences, albeit through my filters.  I also have the great experience of living in a place where I have lifelong friends, who constantly surprise me.  So while I project often (and am right now in relating my experience to yours), if I met you and your ex I would be open enough to recognize, "Hang on, this is nothing like my situation!", or whatever.  Stories are projection; most of what we do here is relate our projections, because we are using the vocabulary and imagery we have developed from past experiences to convey a first hand experience.  This is distinct from actually experiencing.

Getting to know the BPD person in my life has been fascinating to me, partly because I had not had any kind of experience in a close environment with someone with BPD, and she constantly confounds my extrapolations.  As time has gone on, I have become less open to her and learn less.  I have become more like her, partly as I am more afraid and down than I was before having her and her children and ex in my life.  I am dealing with pain more often, and I retract in response, leaving less of me available to perceive the fresh, newness of life.  So I project more. 

We all project.  I find that love and romance is an area where people project to an extreme degree.  Partly, I think this is due to a combination of factors.  First, we have relatively few experiences with love compared to experiences with other daily phenomena, like fire.  Second, love is very important to survival when you are an infant, so serious disruptions to love at this stage can result in creating big filters that make us afraid that love will hurt in that way again, so we are more busy projecting our past experience on the next date than on receiving new information.  One of the things I love about my husband is that he seems to be able to project and be present at the same time better than most people.  He seems to have an opinion of me, but also be able to continually modify it, to see the new me, and respond to it sometimes before I have noticed the change.  But in scary areas for him, he projects from his past and I feel like he is missing me.  For me, having a love that involves more presence and less projection is very important.  I think a lot of the "inner work" I do is trying to perceive when I am clinging to a projection out of fear, rather than being in the moment, and trying to do things that make me feel at peace so I can be present.  For example, right now, my SDs are saying really mean things about and to their dad, my beloved husband.  This reminds me of the way they acted 2 years ago, during an intense custody battle.  It is very painful.  But also, I tend to contract and want it all to go away because I am afraid I will feel the despair and pain I felt at that time, and be a person I did not like being.  But that is what happened then, and now is now.  There is nothing to fear that I know anything about yet.  The future has yet to happen. 

[Maryiscontrary]

I appreciate your thoughts on this.

I find that the more I stay present and regulate my own responses, the more I find how pervasive projection is, even of some of my healthier friends. I become interested when my ex had his breakdown, and convinced his family that I was the crazy one and that he did not need help. Blatantly false projection, where the consequences are leading to dire endings.

My brother, when he snapped, accused me of patently false things. I mean zero accuracy. Lies about it, then projects me as the bad guy when I call him on it.

I say this because as a scientist, these findings tell me that many people live in a fantasy world.

This is one reason why people scare me.

[ennie]

I think the part I wanted to convey that your last comment leaves out is that we can also be open in the moment and be receiving and learning.  Our projections can become rich and varied and more accurate, but we can also learn to allow our selves to know that guessing what will happen next is a mental state that does not always feel great, and that being present feels way safer and better.

Lots of life experiences can be the source of this wisdom, from religious faith, to meditation, to the great outdoors, to pet ownership, to parenthood.   Most people have some of this wisdom.  So while we are all projecting a lot, we are also listening and learning a lot. 

This is why I am NOT scared of people.  Partly, I have faith in my own capacity to perceive whether or not people are receiving me, and I have some tools to help them receive me better, which range from ways of helping people to be present, to communication tools, to managing my own expressions.   I do not always use them, because I am often not scared and focused on something important to me and not noticing the person.  But when threatened, I am always curious and pretty good at helping that person to really connect.  Not as much in areas where I have a little more trauma. 

So part of what makes people scary or not scary is your tool bag for triggering openness, which does not have a chance to develop with someone who is BPD and is less likely to drift away from that rigid, fear state.  It is like doing an experiment on a clock, and trying to determine if yelling or whispering is more effective communication by checking to see if the clock ticks faster when you yell or whisper.  Clocks give little feedback. 

But most people are very responsive, and how I feel and act does impact whether they are afraid or not afraid.  People who are not scared are way less scary, because they are available to perceive me accurately, so my intentions are more likely to be received.

[seeking balance]

As mentioned, I think projection has various degrees and desired outcomes.   I think it is the desired outcome that is fascinating actually.

pwBPD project mainly to not feel intense shame/pain.

others project in an effort to connect at a deeper level.  Instead of simply saying, "I felt this, did you" they say something like, "you must have felt like this".  Being aware now, I am more sensitive to projection so having this distinction helps me not over-react when it does happen.

Overall, we all get to have our own reality.  I remember our MC telling the story of 2 people on opposite corners see a car accident and tell completely opposite stories - which is correct?  they both are because of their perspective.  Understanding another persons perspective can go a long way in determining how much we let their reality effect ours.

interesting topic maryiscontrary.

cross-posted

[Maryiscontrary]

Well, I can set the usefulness of projections, when it's extrapolated from reality. You can make more accurate inferences. but fantasy world projections are at the very best loosely based on reality. I mean based on ~ that flat never happened.

That is what I mean by projection. The mal adaptive type.

[ennie]

Well, I can set the usefulness of projections, when it's extrapolated from reality. You can make more accurate inferences. but fantasy world projections are at the very best loosely based on reality. I mean based on  that flat never happened.

That is what I mean by projection. The mal adaptive type.

I think all projection is useful in different contexts, and all projection is maladaptive to a degree as it removes one from experiencing the present fully.  We are highly geared toward manipulating our environment compared to other creatures, and there are aspects of this that are terribly convenient, and aspects that remove us from what makes us happy.  I think it is tempting to distinguish "bad" and "good" projections... .   I am just not sure that there is an actual line that can be drawn that distinguishes the two. 

[Surnia]

Interesting topic.

I am very bad in spotting possible projections. I was a very good screen, to stay with the picture.   Recently there is a little change in this. My exH was projecting a lot, so I have learned more about it.

My first reaction is mostly asking myself: Gosh, is it true? Did I this? Am I so ... .   ?

Lately I am more confident to say, no, this is not true for me. Than the next trap is to JADE.

It takes often some time for me to think about possible projection. Doing so is a great relief. It has nothing to do with me!

Sometimes I try to step out of my to defensive reaction by asking back things like: Interesting. Can you tell me more? What brought you to this conclusion?

[Maryiscontrary]

Guys, thank you so much for these very well thought out responses.

I was having an in depth conversation with senior board member here. I have come to the conclusion that I do have an over developed emotional empathy mechanism, and a kinda shady cognitive empathy mechanism that kinda works, but seem to short out intermittently.

I am very, very sensitive to story telling. I can see a mask or projection from a million miles away.

Because this really overloads my system, just like fluorescent lights or strong chemical fragrances do... . like air fresheners,  etc.

Now, my FOO took joy in gaslighting and telling me my perceptions in these social areas were all wrong, when in fact, they were so dead on accurate ittriggered shame galore in them. So I was trained to ignore these gifts, even though the perceptions were always there. This caused me damage to no end, and these people must be eliminated.

So this seemingly arrogant attitude I have that I think that most people do not know what they hell they are talking about, is not narcissistic. When somebody is sincere and not acting shady, I so, so very, very much respect that.

I mean, though it is likely staged, watching Judge Judy gives a gloriously humorous example. The so called litigants must be the dumbest, or the best actors, that the producers can get. Th ey come into her court, and start slinging the dumbest BS, and predictably, Judy basically says "what, you think im an idiot?". I mean it is so obvious that these people are two bit con artists, trying to pull the cheapest, most unconvincing stunt in the world... .   well of course you have to swiftly do a clean and quick beheading to eliminate this. I am done with humoring other people's fantasies.

When someone is sincere, I just want to hug them to death, and tell them how much I appreciate that, because it is so rare.

[Maryiscontrary]

Don't watch this if you are easily offended, ... .   but this nails it exactly. Sometimes art says it so much better than mere text description. Prolly a lot of you have already seen this.

My therapist and I determined that I have to adopt this "stance".



www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-7f7vVCqvI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Let me analyze this. The antagonist tries to gaslight the protagonist after pulling into his garage with a dead body. The protagonist states very valid judgement statement, yet the antagonist continues to minimize. As you see, there is no room for SET here. These are not good people, and the protagonist insists on iron clad boundaries, rather impolitely.

[ennie]

That is great!  What a riot.  If I remember the plot, these guys really are not so bad, just extremely fidgety in the trigger finger.  Oops!  But unaware of the scale of the problem they have created... .  

Which does sort of relate back to BPD folk (though a BPD person would not have complimented the coffee, but would have said, "You are blaming ME for this? It is YOUR garage!  I do not even HAVE a gargage, thanks to you!  I am over your whining and blaming!  I am done.  YOU clean up the dead guy!  I have had it!" (exit BPD person). 

But here is how I see it relating... .   the BPD person has a different scale than I do.  For the guys who killed the guy in the garage, this is a bad but somewhat normal situation.  For the guy who owns the garage and for his wife who will arrive home soon, this is a horrible, severe nightmare.  Part of the reason they are belittling the situation is because it FEELS LITTLE TO THEM.  This is something I think is relevant in understanding BPD projection... .   their frame of reference is actually DIFFERENT.  In the case of the BPD mom of my SDs, she was severely abused as a kid.  So it really is not so bad to yell and scream and manipulate, and it really hurts when DH or I is not okay with that and sets a boundary.  She really does not get it on some level.  Partly, she has very little capacity to observe herself, but what she sees she is comparing to some horrible standard of behavior she witnessed at 2-5 years old.  "I am a GOOD PERSON," she keeps saying. 

What the guy in the clip did was stick with his own perceptions.  All the way through.  He did not adopt the experience of others.  He just powerfully owned his experiences. 

[Diligence]

Dear Maryiscontrary,

I have some thoughts about projection.

I am learning from my counselor's modeling how to repeat back to a person I am talking with what I think I hear him or her saying.  It is a great way to check whether or not I am hearing what the person wants me to hear. 

(Here is evidence that I need to heal from my own dysfunction:  it has been easier for me to interpret what I think I want to hear a person saying than to hear what he or she is actually saying.)

With the help of my counselor's modeling, I am also learning to "hear" when people are not listening to me.  In conversation, when someone misconstrues what I have said, I can attempt a correction.  If they persist in misconstruing my words, I deduce that they are not really listening to me. 

That someone might be projecting their baggage onto me is a big possibility when he or she persists in dialogue that does not acknowledge who I say I am!   

Warm regards!

[Maryiscontrary]

Thank both of you for your comments.

Knowing this movie very well, both of the antagonists are ASPD or Narcissist sorts. In my opinion, there is no other way to handle these kind of people. And there are huge, huge amounts of them.

... .  

This is reflective listening. I remember trying this exact technique with my ex and he would go unhinged and not even respond and go into attack mode. It works very well for halfway normal people, as does SET. I have found this really has improved relations with certain types of people.

[Maryiscontrary]

Oh, and travolta, if you remember does pull that BPD in the next scene, getting all offended because he got yelled at.