New territory

[KateCat]

Ah . . . so you had a brother when all this stuff with your dad was going down. I look back at the period, following my mother's early death, when my father seemed to be drinking himself to death. The three of us siblings were in the 18-24 years old range, and man did each one of us handle it differently. I pretty much took off; my sister did the caretaker role; and my brother yelled at him, a lot. I'm now pretty much sure there was no "right way," but I know having an astute therapist to process all this with is a terrific thing.

My father finally quit drinking and smoking all in one fell swoop, years later, when he decided his health was beginning to suffer! (I'm not sure he ever noticed the effect any of this had on his kids, either. After all, he was drunk... )

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[allibaba]

Ah . . . so you had a brother when all this stuff with your dad was going down.

My brother is an even more extreme case of a history of trying to 'save people in my life with half @ssed attempts'.  He just talks about doing good things for people and doesn't do any of them and spends all of his time keeping his time busy so that he doesn't have to look at himself.  We are exactly the same in our issues... .difference is that I can see them clearly and he can't... .and he had a heart attack at 39 yrs old.

And he was in IRAQ while all of this went down with my dad (he once told my poor mother that he'd rather be in IRAQ dodging bombs than spend Thanksgiving dinner with her... .as a BPD she didn't take too kindly to that) but I'm still laughing because I'm a little twisted. 

[Seashells]

I realized yesterday what is probably obvious to everyone else ---

just like the pwBPD using the non as their outlet so that they don't have to look in the mirror - the non often uses the general chaos around the BPD relationship... .trying to fix the BPD (codependent tendencies) as a distraction not to look in the mirror.  (Cartoon lightbulb appears above Alli's head)

And by working the lessons and truly separating his stuff from my stuff - I start to see my own inability to be comfortable in my own skin and I have to ask myself WHY.  And I realized yesterday that by doing some horribly hard work in my BPD relationship then I am allowing myself a shot at being comfortable in my own skin (maybe not immediately but through some further really hard and painful work on myself).

WHOA

I'm not sure it's always obvious to everyone else when we're doing it, but I surely can relate to it.  I had to face up to what I was avoiding myself as well.  And am still working on being aware of it.   It's a good feeling (and empowering) when we to start to see these things and start tackling them.  When I saw this in myself, it also made me finally, finally, finally truly comprehend the idea of how we make choices to be where we are, and the idea of not viewing ourselves as victims.  I could read those words but couldn't wrap my head around them completely until I reached this point.

It also repeatedly amazes me how much we all have in common.

Despite the fact that I did a lot to try to help my dad, I still feel primarily responsible for what 'happened to him' because I was the one closet to him emotionally (even though in my mind I know it can't possibly be my fault that he is an alcoholic and he made decisions to drink). 

I think that if I had better boundaries with him and hadn't been completely wrapped up in my husband - things might not have gotten so far.  Probably true but something that I clearly need to let go of.

I have a history of trying to 'save people in my life with half @ssed attempts'.  Through this situation with my husband I am learning to stand up for RIGHT in a kind way and not be afraid to lose the thing that I love the most.  That way maybe I can lose my demons of not doing things properly in my history... . and obviously its a good chance to really use therapy to make myself better and have a good shot at being a good model for my son.

And again WHOA... .no wonder I was hiding in the chaos of my BPD relationship.

I can relate to this too.  Perhaps it will help to let to if you can realize at that point you weren't really equipped to do any better at that time through no fault of your own.  And so it may not have made an effective difference earlier even if you had. (our own Radical Acceptance?)

I guess we have to learn to forgive ourselves and accept our own imperfections, especially the ones caused by not knowing any better.  I don't think any of us (or very few) have treated ourselves with as much compassion as the disordered person in our lives, as well as others we care about.

It seems to me you already are a good role model for your son, and after this you may learn to just be a healthier one.   

I hope the progress has continued.  Wish you strength in staying the course.

[Seashells]

Perhaps it will help to let to = Perhaps it will help you to let go if you can... .


Keep us posted when you can Alli- 

[allibaba]

When I saw this in myself, it also made me finally, finally, finally truly comprehend the idea of how we make choices to be where we are, and the idea of not viewing ourselves as victims.  I could read those words but couldn't wrap my head around them completely until I reached this point.

It also repeatedly amazes me how much we all have in common.

This is really neat stuff and I am so grateful to have found a community of people struggling just like me

Perhaps it will help to let to if you can realize at that point you weren't really equipped to do any better at that time through no fault of your own.  And so it may not have made an effective difference earlier even if you had. (our own Radical Acceptance?)

I guess we have to learn to forgive ourselves and accept our own imperfections, especially the ones caused by not knowing any better.  I don't think any of us (or very few) have treated ourselves with as much compassion as the disordered person in our lives, as well as others we care about.

I think that this is completely spot on and its so hard not to go back and say if only, if only, when the price was so high.  Yes our own radical acceptance is necessary here.

Thank you for this!

[waverider]

We often attempt to compensate for our own perceived shortfalls by saving others instead of ourselves. As we can't completely control others, so we also fail to save them, and hence increase our own sense of failure.

It is a cycle that is hard to break. It is a self protective form of projection.

[allibaba]

We often attempt to compensate for our own perceived shortfalls by saving others instead of ourselves. As we can't completely control others, so we also fail to save them, and hence increase our own sense of failure.

It is a cycle that is hard to break. It is a self protective form of projection.

That's really interesting.

On a positive front, I have had 6 straight totally sane days at home... .which has been a nice change.  Another nice change is that I am not trembling at the thought of another round of inevitable BPD insanity (for once).

[allibaba]

Complete sanity in my house for more than a week now.  Dogs are calm, balanced and happy.  Our son is having a normal well balanced life with both parents totally participating.  Even through some stressors (preparing for a large training exercise for an activity that he participates in that is life or death - (rescue operation which involves law enforcement))... .

Could all of that nuts behavior have just been one massive extinction burst?  So strange.

[momtara]

I think that's wonderful.  It's too bad it takes so long before we can get the confidence to set our foot down.  Please keep updating!

I think most people here would be cynical that it will continue to be exactly like this for very long.  No one can change a lifetime of behavior in a few weeks, no matter what they stand to lose.  Yet, it's a good sign and I think if the counseling continues, you may get to a point where it's like this most of the time, and maybe eventually all the time.  Just keep your boundaries clear.

I am so happy for you!

[allibaba]

I think most people here

 INCLUDING ME

would be cynical that it will continue to be exactly like this for very long.  No one can change a lifetime of behavior in a few weeks, no matter what they stand to lose.  

My educated guess is that early/ mid next week he'll get squirrely again.  After the excitement of his big exercise wears off.  Then again he's got work for a few weeks... .so who knows.  Man I miss the days when I thought if I held strong on boundaries that it would FIX HIM.  I am grateful for the break though.  That 3 weeks was EXHAUSTING!

Yet, it's a good sign and I think if the counseling continues, you may get to a point where it's like this most of the time, and maybe eventually all the time.  Just keep your boundaries clear.

I am so happy for you!

Maybe!  I appreciate the encouragement though!  

[allibaba]

By the way, two good things have developed recently.  

1.  I am no longer responsible for my husband's breakfast and lunch (just dinner) nor do I have sole food responsibility - I used to get so much flack regarding there not being enough food in the house etc etc etc.  I made it quite clear that he's welcome to visit the supermarket should he feel that there are deficiencies in the way that the house is stocked!

I have come a long way from waking up at 4 am to prepare breakfast and pack lunch for my husband when I didn't have to be at work until 9:30... .(all the while being verbally abused)  This new situation has been ongoing for a couple of months and boy is it a relief.  I don't mind being in charge of dinner.

2.  I was actually able to explain to my husband last week that I need space sometimes - without him going off the rails.  (I spend almost every waking moment on the go either to and from work, at work, errands, or spending quality time with my husband - sometimes I just want an hour to myself - and long term I need that).  Less dysregulations in our house lead to less 'me' time and I need more healthy 'me' time.  He agreed (begrudgingly) and yesterday I went out and got my hair done and went to the store while he stayed home and watched our little boy    And he grumbled a little but overall they both enjoyed the (momma free) time.

[momtara]

4 am!  Egad!  You know, that reminds me of all the things I used to do to keep my husband from getting triggered.  Including giving him massages almost every time he asked, even when I was exhausted.  Once you get into such a pattern, it's hard to break out.  GOOD FOR YOU!

My husband had trouble accepting a lot of responsibility for things, too.  He would put it on me, and then it was my problem if I did it wrong... .and yes, he said that it had to be this way because of health issues.

I think there are probably other dysfunctional things going on you haven't changed yet, but they will change in time.

I heard that "marriage is a compromise" so many times that I wondered if I was just not compromising enough.  But it has to go both ways.  And not result in verbal abuse when you try it!

[allibaba]

4 am!  Egad! 

I know!  I know!  I used to be really nuts... .like I'd sign into my husband's fantasy football team during the week to rearrange the players so that if he went off his rocker on the weekend then he wouldn't lose his match-up.  SO SO SO TWISTED... .I mean who really cares if he loses his fantasy football match-up

I think there are probably other dysfunctional things going on you haven't changed yet, but they will change in time.

Yup.  But Rome wasn't build in a day... .

[connect]

Good work Alli!

I think the old style you who desperately tried to avoid his triggers is seeing that the new style you still has to deal with his triggers sometimes. This helps to show us that we didnt have the power to stop the triggers by eggshell walking and trying to pre-empt their stuff anyway. The difference is that the new you gets more sleep, is happier and more easily able to deal with the triggers without going off the rails yourself. And of course long term the r/s is better as you feel better and he takes more reponsibility for himself.

I have been trying to wean myself off tying myself in knots to avoid triggering my SO. Being aware I am being eggshelly helps and I have started to introduce things I need to do into our time together. Slow process but you are an inspiration!

[allibaba]

Good work Alli!

I think the old style you who desperately tried to avoid his triggers is seeing that the new style you still has to deal with his triggers sometimes. This helps to show us that we didnt have the power to stop the triggers by eggshell walking and trying to pre-empt their stuff anyway. The difference is that the new you gets more sleep, is happier and more easily able to deal with the triggers without going off the rails yourself. And of course long term the r/s is better as you feel better and he takes more reponsibility for himself.

I have been trying to wean myself off tying myself in knots to avoid triggering my SO. Being aware I am being eggshelly helps and I have started to introduce things I need to do into our time together. Slow process but you are an inspiration!

Spot on there connect!

So just a quick update... .

Things have been ok.  No verbal abuse.  No physical abuse.  No throwing things.  He's really really really down.  He's trying to put his negativity onto me... .but I am just allowing it to roll off me like water off a duck's back and have been saying things to put responsibility back onto him.

This morning unfortunately he started in on me in a verbally abusive way "you go to your stupid @ss f easy p @ss job."  I simply responded ":)on't speak to me that way" and walked into another room shutting the door (quietly, no slamming, no locking)... .so like any sane person, he smashed the door down.  I said "you don't act like that in this house. Ever.  Its unacceptable and left for work."

He called me on the way to work.  He said "everything is messed up.  We need to talk."  I said fine.  He said "not over the phone, in person"  I said "great. over the weekend."

I have a feeling that its going to be another one of those "you're not doing enough for me" conversations.  To which my reply is going to be "I'm doing everything that I can for our family.  If its not good enough.  Please leave." 

One thing that worries me is that over the last week - he's making little comments.  I believe that they are the first suicidal comments (though no normal person would interpret them like that). 

I have spoken to his dad and we have agreed that if the comments continue, I am going to have him forcefully committed (I have already spoken to the doctor on how to do this).

I really have a hard time believing that its come to this.

I will not sit idle and let my husband contemplate killing himself though.   :'(

[allibaba]

I've now read up on the suicide protocol/ suicide prevention workshop. 

Man this stuff is heavy.

Good thing that I have been taking really good care of myself of late.  No drinking/ minimal sugar/ no skipping meals/ lots of water/  walks in the woods with the dogs.  Play time with my little boy.  Going to events w friends about 1 or 2x a month... .

[AnitaL]

Yeah, the suicide stuff is crushing.     But you've dealt with so much already and have done so amazingly well.  It sounds like you are using all the resources at your disposal plus your healthy outlook to help you through it. 

I just want to say I wish you well, and keep up the good work! 

[KateCat]

I want to say that you're doing great and that "a decisive crisis" type event was/is inevitably coming for your husband one way or another (kind of like that moment of religious conversion where a person is expected to "break" and then be reborn anew). But . . . you know, a man breaking down the door to get to his wife. Yikes!

What would be a truly decisive event for you at this point? I'm just worried that if what that is for you is being directly physically attacked again, then that is exactly what may be coming when his frustration builds and other things have not "worked" for him.

It's not really a good gut feeling that I get regarding your safety. I'm sorry.  :'(

[zaqsert]

Hey Alli,

Although I haven't been participating much around here recently, just wanted to chime in.  I'm one of the many here who are very impressed with how much you've grown and improved, for yourself, your son, and even your husband.  Keep it up, you're doing awesome!

How has your weekend been going?  It sounded like you might have quite a conversation ahead of you.

[allibaba]

How has your weekend been going?  It sounded like you might have quite a conversation ahead of you.

Would you believe that my / our weekend was absolutely amazing.  One of the best of my (10 yr) relationship with my husband.  Our 'big' discussion on Saturday was actually really healthy.  My husband said that he is watching me get better (developing my personal and professional life) and that its terrifying to him because he is so stuck in a rut.  Poor baby is worried that I am going to leave him in the dust.  I got the opportunity to reiterate to him that I HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE COMMITTED TO HIM.

He poured his heart out (over the course of about a half an hour before I had to leave for something at a friend's house) and shared his pain and why he acts the way that he does in certain situations.  He was able to acknowledge that he is mentally ill and that he knows that his thinking is twisted but that he deserves to have his feelings HEARD.  I agreed and I was able to reaffirm to him that I AM LISTENING but that I won't stick around for abusive or unhealthy interactions and that I walk away because I LOVE HIM and that behavior isn't healthy for either of us.  I told him that I am getting better for US AS A FAMILY.  He explained that right now he doesn't want to go to a stranger (professional) and talk about what is going on in his head when he can't talk about it with his wife, his brother, or his father.  I was able to explain that all of us would listen but his discussions about how he feels are often very aggressive and difficult to be on the receiving end.  He told me that that was good feedback and something that he can work on.  I did not push my own agenda on getting him professional help.  That could wait for another day.

I interacted with my husband this weekend, together, open and honest, kind and loving.  I told him NO regularly and was able to communicate why I needed to do things a different way sometimes and then other times I did things his way because they made more sense.  I actually saw a lot of compromise on his part which is somewhat new territory for us.

I helped him get through something difficult (calling the construction boss and telling him that he had made a mistake saying yes to the temporary work offer) and was able to explain that I support him and tell him that I support the decisions that he makes as long as they conform to the morals and values of our family and that basically I don't give a rat's @ss what anyone outside of our family thinks as long as we stick to our agreed standards of our family.  Oddly that was a huge relief for him (totally obvious to me... .I think that relates to how he perceives what people think of him... .and I told him that I support him not other's perceptions of him). 

We were also clearly able to allocate some responsibilities across the two of us as a couple... .so there no minimal gray area regarding certain things in our house (for example what he eats) and that I won't tiptoe around trying to guess what he wants for dinner etc... .if he is in a picky mood he can go somewhere else but that I'm not responsible for figuring out what satisfies his moods.

Overall it felt really good.  This model is so simple but its so NOT EASY.  I went to my second therapy session this morning and she reiterated that all empirical evidence suggests that this is how to manage dealing with someone with BPD as long as you can take care of yourself doing it.  She said that she is amazed by the journey that I am on at the moment (he he that was good validation) and that it would have been so much easier to just leave him, but that she respects the fact that I love him enough to fight for him (and for me).

What would be a truly decisive event for you at this point? I'm just worried that if what that is for you is being directly physically attacked again, then that is exactly what may be coming when his frustration builds and other things have not "worked" for him.

It's not really a good gut feeling that I get regarding your safety. I'm sorry.  :'(

This is totally understandable KateCat... .and unfortunately I am intimately familiar with what 'violence towards me' feels like coming from my husband.  This did not 'feel like' violence towards me.  It 'felt like' the pure and utter pain and frustration that a small child must feel when they can't communicate what is going on with them.  The whole thing lasted less than 10 minutes there was no dyregulation following it.

To answer your question:  any act of violence towards me, the dogs, or our son results in him being kicked out.  That includes grabbing me (even if there is no after sign).  He is quite clear on this point which is why he took out his frustration on the door 

[KateCat]

Truly new territory for both you and your husband. (But that makes it unpredictable too, no?) Does your therapist have DV experience and the ability to assess risk, do you think? Does the therapist know that he broke down the door? I worry that you write that this did not "feel like violence toward you." And think a professional might have a different view of this.

[allibaba]

Truly new territory for both you and your husband. (But that makes it unpredictable too, no?) Does your therapist have DV experience and the ability to assess risk, do you think? Does the therapist know that he broke down the door? I worry that you write that this did not "feel like violence toward you." And think a professional might have a different view of this.

I'm willing to accept the risk of the new way of doing things.  The old way was pretty damn unpredictable too.  In fact it was far worse.

Yes, she has DV experience and yes she knows that he broke the door.  The door wasn't locked.  It wasn't about 'coming after me' it about him not liking the fact that I told him NO.  He didn't even bother to follow me.  He broke the door and then turned around and told me that he would break every door in the house.  I said GO AHEAD but you will not continue to live in this house if you behave like that.  At which point he walked away.  I was already in the car by the time he broke the door... .I actually came back into the house to tell him that his behavior was totally unacceptable.   

[momtara]

Sounds like he was afraid of being abandoned.  Sounds like he was expressing himself and showing typical BPD fears.  Which is NICE.  He admits it.  He tells you his feelings instead of acting.  I think that is wonderful.  Keep doing what you're doing.  it's a lot of work, but it sounds like you guys will be one of the ones who succeed - largely because of your tenacity and love, and his ability to finally open up a bit or face losing you.

[KateCat]

Yes, she has DV experience and yes she knows that he broke the door.

You have just made me very happy.  Thank you.

[living in the past]

 hi allibaba i ran across your post and started reading them,i don"t have much to comment on them except that i wish you well and your family too,it touches me that you took the time to comment on my posts(with all you are going through) and it has been a real blessing to me thanks again, i understand the alcoholism thing with your father, i have been in al-anon for many years,but its hard to talk about BPD there, but i try to use the principles i learned there to help me deal(help) with my BPD friend but the hurt is a different one,but i feel i will be allright, and partly i can thank you.

[Grey Kitty]

  Great weekend, great progress. I'm delighted to hear it!

He poured his heart out

Q: Did he share some of the horrible feelings about himself that are so common with BPD? With my wife, it was progress when she started to share more of those feelings instead of blindly reacting to them.

[T] said that she is amazed by the journey that I am on at the moment

She ain't the only one! This is one of those times where I am looking on in amazement. I really don't know that I would be able to do what you've done if I was in that bad a situation!

If you keep this perspective up, you will thrive, no matter what. And you will improve your H's odds 500% or more too! (His results are still up to him, but you know that already )

[zaqsert]

Very glad to hear your weekend went so well! 

[allibaba]

but it sounds like you guys will be one of the ones who succeed - largely because of your tenacity and love, and his ability to finally open up a bit or face losing you.

Thanks Momtara,  I think it was KateCat that mentioned in another of my posts that those who are able to stay "face their worst fears" and I believe that that is what I am doing.  I really don't know the outcome right now.  Some days, I feel like my husband and I can take this on and nothing can stop us.  Other days I just want to bury my head in the sand.  I do know that regardless I have to keep the boundaries strong.  Its the only shot for us - and I know that in my heart now.  

Q: Did he share some of the horrible feelings about himself that are so common with BPD? With my wife, it was progress when she started to share more of those feelings instead of blindly reacting to them.

He did.  And its not the first time.  This is the 'normal' model of how things play out after a round of strong boundaries/ extinction burst.  Its a good feeling and a good break.  I generally don't expect it to last but I try to stay in the moment and enjoy the peace.

If you keep this perspective up, you will thrive, no matter what. And you will improve your H's odds 500% or more too! (His results are still up to him, but you know that already )

I really feel this in my soul.  I am starting to thrive as a person again... .and its such a relief.

I should mention that my husband did not drag me down (in our relationship)... .he found me broken... . he has added so many positive perspectives on my life... .the morals, the values that he holds dear/ that I hold dear, I learned with him.  We started dating when I was in my early 20's.  I was just a kid.  I'm glad that we had a few years to get to know eachother before the mental illness really set it.  It gave us the opportunity to forge the bond that is keeping us together through this difficult time.  

And a quick PS I am really taking care of myself physically and man does it feel good.

[momtara]

great!

when DID the mental illness set in.  was it when you had a kid?  i think that's common.

i

[allibaba]

I think that his mental illness was triggered after a serious of quite nasty attacks by his ex-wife in 2005-2007 (she's a diagnosed delusional narcissist who has now been married 4x in 5 years).  She had married a multi-millionaire and had unlimited resources at her disposal for 1 yr before the new guy realized what was going on (that she is completely insane).  :)uring that year, my husband and I underwent a siege.  Three legal cases (including two criminal), break-ins to our house, blood left on our front door step, listening devices under the living room table, my husband's former employer had evidence that would clear his name and as soon as we found out that the evidence existed his ex-wife immediately showed up at the location where it was stored and tried to destroy it (later found out that she had listening devices in our home).  It was a really twisted time and if I hadn't lived it - I wouldn't believe it.  It was horrible.  We didn't feel safe, we could never relax.  We were stalked and harassed.  

Fortunately he hadn't done any thing wrong and she's not a very intelligent woman so ultimately (with the help of an exceptional lawyer) we were able to disprove everything... .but it cost my husband his sanity in addition to more than a $100,000 in legal fees.  His ex-wife had teamed up with another seriously mental ill woman during their crusade against us and the other woman was ultimately convicted of fraud and imprisoned for 5 yrs for her role in things.  That was some vindication but it didn't bring my poor husband back.  He had serious anxiety + PTSD.  To make it worse he saw some really, really incompetent mental health professional during that time who told him that nothing was wrong with him.  Just a regular guy going through a stressful time and he'd either get better or be permanently broken (which is why he now refuses to get help).

What we went through glued us together in a lot of ways... .we really trust each other, I had to be a legal witness for him and I stood by him when a lot of people didn't.  We spent a couple of years in our old country, cleaning up the wreckage, paying off bills and trying to get back to a normal life and then moved to Canada to start fresh (old country was a small island so he couldn't go anywhere without being haunted by 'what happened'.  Up here his mental illness developed and I was alone as he became more abusive (previously he was quite high functioning).

The arrival of our son has actually brought us together because we have similar morals and values around him and how to raise him (if you set aside the bad BPD behavior)... .and it was having our son that made me finally say 'nah - the old way isn't going to work anymore'.  

Our life was like a running soap opera for a few years.  We moved to the country - to a more simple life - and that's when the soap opera started in our own home.  He didn't start the dramas with his ex-wife but at some point in the process he began to perpetuate them and he certainly perpetuated the drama for years to come in our home.  

We are two educated, moral, intelligent, social professionals who got caught in a 'worst nightmare scenario'.  I survived my burying my head in the sand and pretending like everything wasn't happening and my husband developed mental illness (in addition to rheumatoid arthritis and diabetes in a short period of time).