New territory

[allibaba]

Good day all,

I am in such a bizarre spot at the moment.  I know some of you read my posts over the last few weeks where it finally culminated in me telling my husband (uBPD) that he needs to get help or get out of the house.

He now claims that he has been seeing a professional for 6 months (unlikely to be true) and continues to refer to the advice that THEY have given him (though he interchanges HE and SHE in referencing this mysterious person).  I obviously offered to make a visit to the person so that they could understand what he has to deal with but he got very angry and said that if I sought therapy on my own that he wouldn't bother to share his with me.

It all basically boils down to the fact that he says that he has 'special needs' and over the years I have promised to support him (by trying to make sure that the right food is in the house, by making sure that the house is clean, by taking on more of the dog responsibilities etc) but because I have promised to support his needs and fail in meeting his expectations then I AM SUBJECTING HIM TO VERBAL AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE.  He keeps referencing these conversations that he has with various family members who tell him that I am not a good cook, I am not a good mother, I am not a good housekeeper but "THEY" all tell him that he needs to have the patience of a Saint to deal with me and "THEY" have told him that he married a professional woman who primarily cares about her job and that he needs to just deal with it.  THEY also tell him that I am an emotional child and that HE NEEDS TO CONTROL his own house by directing everything.

I do work a professional job but I work 9:30 to 4:45 and the occasional work at home at night + keeping an eye on my messages to deal with emergencies (we do business all over the world and I get correspondence at all hours of the day)... .I don't check messages after about 9pm or before about 5 am.

Now I haven't spoken to these family members but I know for a fact that they don't believe the things that he says and he seems to be projecting onto them in a twisted effort to get me on board.

He did say this morning that he feels totally unloved and uncared for by me.  It all started because he woke up and was alone and apparently had an anxiety attack because I wasn't there and the dogs weren't there to support him through it.  He says that I am a cold and callous person.  I'm not (sometimes I get accused of being too lovely dovey cutesy) I have had to put on a shield of toughness to get through the verbal and emotional abuse that erupts.  He wants my love ALL the time.  He wants me to show affection all of time.  

I think that we are finally at the root of our real problem which is that I cannot meet his expectations and I will no longer tolerate the abuse that he used to try to control me.  

He expects me to remember everything that he says and flips out when things don't happen the way that he wants.  He keeps saying that he is gravely ill and he requires my 'passing grade attention' to get better.  He does have some health issues, but this morning he told me that he is reaching from his grave for my help and I don't give it to him.

How in the world are you supposed to deal with someone who claims that he is getting help... .but references seemingly delusional conversations to try to control me.  I am becoming less convinced that there is hope here.  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[allibaba]

PS I could be posting on either the staying board or the undecided board at this point.  I am so at a loss especially with him saying that he is getting intensive treatment.  This is just so so so odd.

[123Phoebe]

PS I could be posting on either the staying board or the undecided board at this point.  I am so at a loss especially with him saying that he is getting intensive treatment.  This is just so so so odd.

Allibaba, please try to keep sight of your own reality, hold onto it dearly.  Your reality, not his

[sadeyes]

No advice... .just hi!

I have the same problems with 'meeting his expectations'

At first I couldn't meet them as they were impossible. Now I can't and won't try to do the impossible.

I know you said your husb is from another country. Do you think the native beliefs change his expections for you? While mine is not from a different country, he is from a part of the country that I think determines some of his thoughts/beliefs.

[waverider]

Just to clarify here. You believe without a doubt that he is making this up?

Given the dysregulations he has been through in the last 6 months when he has just hurled whatever criticism he can at you and said that everyone else thinks you are in the wrong, and you have suggested he gets help, do you think it even remotely possible he could have held this important fact back if it was true?

It would have been his first "go to" defense. Even I couldn't have held that back, it would take an enormous amount of regulation to do so.

What he says makes no difference.

It comes down to what has happened, what continues to happen. How it makes you feel and whether anything real is being done to change that. In short you need results not updates on what he is, or is going to do. The problem with using attending therapy as a boundary is that it can be countered with tokenisms

Desperation brings out enormous amounts of empty words and BS.

You have been though the talking stage now you need to base your life on changes that have been made.

"If things haven't changed the product will be exactly the same no matter the packaging they are delivered in"

[allibaba]

Just to clarify here. You believe without a doubt that he is making this up?

Yes, given the fact that until a few days ago he claimed that he would NEVER go seek any sort of treatment... .yes I do believe that he is making this up.  Also, it costs money to get treatment and contacts and I don't think that he has the initiative to go find someone.  The person that he was seeing that I identified confirmed that he is not going there and that he badly needs professional help including time with a psychiatrist.

It comes down to what has happened, what continues to happen. How it makes you feel and whether anything real is being done to change that. In short you need results not updates on what he is, or is going to do. The problem with using attending therapy as a boundary is that it can be countered with tokenisms

Desperation brings out enormous amounts of empty words and BS.

You have been though the talking stage now you need to base your life on changes that have been made.

"If things haven't changed the product will be exactly the same no matter the packaging they are delivered in"

I guess that somewhere in this process I lost my acceptance of being abused.  I lost my acceptance of everyone in our family being abused.  

The good news is that I see a fundamental change in him.  He knows that he can't control me anymore.  This morning he pretended like he was going to hit the dog, I walked in front of him calmly and said "you don't want to do that."  He said "I do.  Get out of my way."  I said "Trust me husband.  You will not do that and if you do you will experience serious consequences."  There was no drama - he walked away.

The good news is that we really are at the root of our problem now.  

HE DOESN'T FEEL LOVED, RESPECTED OR CARED FOR IN OUR HOUSE.  RIGHT OR WRONG THAT IS HIS REALITY AND THAT IS HOW HE FEELS.

We had a simple situation this morning where I borrowed a knife from him to open a feed bag.  He had gotten the knife from his truck.  I didn't know where in his truck it came from so I brought it back to him.  He blew a gasket saying that I need to return it to where I got it from.  I made the mistake of telling him that I got it from him.  He exploded into, its always excuses with you.  He was yelling.  Our big dog was trying to scale a 6' fence to escape the insanity.  Our son was already in the car.  Grabbed big dog and took him back to daycare.

I got a call from him later telling me how horrible it feels for me to throw one of his huge triggers (me putting stuff back) in his face.  He said that I have absolutely no humility and that I should have been groveling when I realized the horrible mistake that I had made.  He said that I am stomping on his triggers when he is struggling so badly and that I am making the big dog weak by taking him out of a situation that is disturbing him (not teaching him - the dog - to self sooth).  I said listen 'the dog is sensitive.  you have abused him in the past.  This is how I feel I can best protect him.'  He said DON'T THROW IT IN MY FACE WHAT HE HAS GONE THROUGH.  I WAS THERE WITH HIM.  REMEMBER.  WHAT IS THE POINT OF REMINDING ME OF THIS.

New boundary (get out or get help has been circumvented and there is no way to enforce it).

I need a boundary around the temper tantrums/ language.  I am done with them.  The temper tantrums are now almost 100% verbal and at least today there was no abuse in them.  All yelling about how the situation makes him FEEL (he's been to therapy before with his ex-wife.  He knows how to phrase things if he needs to).

PS I have an appt for DBT/ biofeedback on Monday and an appt with the lawyer on Tuesday to draw up a separation agreement.  I still believe that that is where this is going.

[allibaba]

My husband just called again.

He said that he has realized that he cannot control his behavior in the mornings and that he will keep this cycle up without some major change to environment.  

He says that he doesn't know where he is going to go but that he rationally cannot continue to put our family through this - me, the dogs, our son.  He said that he will not have our Saturday morning be like this.  He is also done with his own behavior.  He will not put us through another day.

He said that he feels so incredibly disconnected and lonely.  That the last 3 weeks have been pure hell in the prison of his own head.  That the only person to blame is himself.

I reiterated that I love him and that I am completely and 100% dedicated to him but that I agree that this situation cannot continue as it is.  I told him that I'll keep fighting the good fight with him but that I will not continue how we are living.  I emphasized that if he can come up with a solution (whether it be going home, going on a trip, renting an apt) I will support him in doing it.

This is actually what I have been looking for.  I removed all his ability to blame everyone else and have effective stopped allowing abuse.  Now he is looking at himself in the mirror and all he sees is him. 

Its incredibly incredibly scary, but this is the right journey and the right path and I pray that he finds his way.  I did not get the impression that he was suicidal at all.

[Grey Kitty]

Hold fast to your reality indeed.

He says many things. If they are how he is feeling, then they are almost certainly true at the time he says them.

If they are about how your actions cause his feelings, what you did, what he did, or anything else... .he has a much worse track record.

You are on the right track--validate him, and remember there is no need to believe his reality about this stuff.

I hope he finds treatment; As you observed, you cannot force this. I hope your guidance will help. You know the tools well, and when you can use them.

Many hugs to you.

GK

[waverider]

You are doing well and it is a hard slog.

Just keep in mind that once the yelling starts you need to disengage.

[eyvindr]

Good lord, alli --   -- I don't know what to say. I could have written these posts almost verbatim -- so many similarities here to my experience with my ex -- especially this part:

... .he says that he has 'special needs' and over the years I have promised to support him (by trying to make sure that the right food is in the house, by making sure that the house is clean, by taking on more of the dog responsibilities etc) but because I have promised to support his needs and fail in meeting his expectations then I AM SUBJECTING HIM TO VERBAL AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE.  He keeps referencing these conversations that he has with various family members who tell him that I am not a good cook, I am not a good mother, I am not a good housekeeper but "THEY" all tell him that he needs to have the patience of a Saint to deal with me... .

In my case, it wasn't family members (my ex has very strained relationships with her parents, even though they're around all the time helping care for her and her daughter), but "hundreds of people," "all my friends" -- in short, the usual suspects.

But you're handling this extremely well.   I really admire you for it. You're setting a good example for all of us here.

Hang in there,

e.

[momtara]

Good, let him move out and get help.  You will feel such relief.  It was smart to put the burden on him to find a solution - and you did give him alternatives.

[allibaba]

Allibaba, please try to keep sight of your own reality, hold onto it dearly.  Your reality, not his

My reality is very clear to me the last few days.  Thank you everyone for continuing to support me.  

On Friday he packed up his things and left.    and came back 3 hrs later.  He was crying and he said, "I don't know where to go.  The only place that I want to me is at home with my family.  I am so scared."

I told him that if he was staying for the night then I was going to a party and he could keep our son and make sure that he is ok but that I would be back before midnight.  :)riving out of the driveway... .I thought... .man oh man am I going to pay for this one tomorrow.  Well I didn't.  He asked how the party was.  I said it was great.  I really appreciated the time out of the house.

We had another talk about things.  I told him that I can't control his behavior but I can decide what behavior is and is and is not acceptable in our house.  I actually told him "I will be damned if 30 years from now.  I look back with regret that I did not protect our son.  It is not going to happen.  He will not get stuck in this dysfunction cycle."  I reiterated that I love him more than anything but that we will not have tantrums/ melodrama/ swearing in front of our son.  The adults in our house will set a good example for our son (family members, guests, etc).  If we (the adults) cannot do that, we will remove ourselves or be removed.   I was basically telling him that house rules apply to all of us not just him.  If my behavior sucks, same rules apply (now I don't have much of a temper so my behavior very rarely sucks... .but when it does, I also have to take a time out).

I told him that I am not in charge of his recovery.  If he wants to be a part of this house - he better figure himself out.  

Holy moly I feel empowered.  Its not unusual for me to speak my truth when he's off his rocker... .but its totally new for me to speak my truth consistently - no matter where he is at.

He's still here... .but I feel another turning point within myself and it feels so so so good.

[allibaba]

He's still here... .but I feel another turning point within myself and it feels so so so good.

I just realized what the difference is... .For the first time in many, many years... .my primary focus/ goal is no longer to SAVE my husband or my relationship.  My primary goal is to take care of myself and my environment.

WHOA

[connect]

Hey Alli 

I also want to say that I think you are doing really well here.

The thing that complicates your situation is the difficulties around food and the reactions he gets when he eats certain foodstuffs. I have read somewhere that when people have a mild allergy to a certan food that it can make them "crave" the food - something to do with the adrenaline the body produces dealing with the allergy side of it I think... .I know your H is not helping himself with the food side of things.

I am so pleased he had that moment of clarity and saw the situation in it's true light. That's good news. He seems to be fighting a horrible battle with himself and it's lonely in there so he's dragging (or trying to drag) you in as company.

It's so frustarting to read - I just want to say to your H "stop eating food that disagrees with you" and "book some dbt" he will feel so much better. I really hope he can sustain his insight.

Hugs to you 

[Seashells]

He's still here... .but I feel another turning point within myself and it feels so so so good.

I just realized what the difference is... .For the first time in many, many years... .my primary focus/ goal is no longer to SAVE my husband or my relationship.  My primary goal is to take care of myself and my environment.

WHOA

Simply awesome.  I have been following along.  I'm glad for you.  Gave me goose bumps. It surely seems things are getting to a better place.

[KateCat]

Good going, Allibaba!

I can't help but think, in light of your husband's football-playing past, that a lot of the stories coming out of the NFL recently regarding traumatic brain injury sufferers sound as though they're experiencing similar challenges. And they are some pretty manly men . . .

www.msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/mark-duper-miami-dolphins-latest-to-reveal-cte-symptoms-concussions-brain-damage-110913

Added: Would he find it way too threatening to see a clinical psychologist to find out how much of his suffering is related to purely physical problems and how much is more complex in nature?

[momtara]

Good, keep us updated!  Hard to know if his tears are geniuine or manipulation, but he does face losing everything.  So did my husband.  That was why he finally got help.  He made several false starts.  Stick with it.  Make sure it's a therapist who insists on getting him to take responsibility for things he has done.

[Grey Kitty]

He's still here... .but I feel another turning point within myself and it feels so so so good.

I just realized what the difference is... .For the first time in many, many years... .my primary focus/ goal is no longer to SAVE my husband or my relationship.  My primary goal is to take care of myself and my environment.

WHOA

You got it, girl! I'd also say that you know how important it is and aren't going to let it go either.

I ran into this elsewhere, but it sounds very close to where you are right now:

The people in the relationship are more important than the relationship.

[allibaba]

Good morning everyone.

I went to my first therapy session with someone else this morning (does DBT and biofeedback).  The guy I had seen for my husband seemed to really focus on my husband and his issues rather than me and where I am at. 

It was just the intro session, but I am fairly confident that I blew her mind.  Whoops... .

My goals for upcoming therapy are as follows:

Come to terms with the 2 most painful things in my life

*  what happened with my dad and my role in it,

*  going through the major legal case with my husband *as in together, not against* and the emotional effects that it had on me,

And personally getting to the point where I can open up on a less intellectual more emotional level with those close to me.  My coping mechanism has been to analyze/ attack things.

The psychologist suggested (rather unusual) that in future sessions, she will identify DBT skills workbooks for me and that since my husband is in a place where he knows there is a major issue (with himself) and he's bull headed about fixing himself without professional intervention - she said that I can at least give him the workbooks and explain that this is what I am working on.  Someone also suggested that we try reading the 'High Conflict Couple' together.

KateCat, I'll look into the head injury stuff.  My hubby also used to do martial arts and boxing... .he's convinced that he has brain damage that is physical.  Maybe he is right.

I think the poor guy has about 12 different things going on (including food allergies and a chemical imbalance).   Can't imagine being in his shoes.

Grey Kitty, You are correct.  While I accept the fact that I don't have control over the destiny of my relationship I'll keep trying... .because it is important to me and that's just know I am.

[allibaba]

Good going, Allibaba!

I can't help but think, in light of your husband's football-playing past, that a lot of the stories coming out of the NFL recently regarding traumatic brain injury sufferers sound as though they're experiencing similar challenges. And they are some pretty manly men . . .

www.msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/mark-duper-miami-dolphins-latest-to-reveal-cte-symptoms-concussions-brain-damage-110913

WOW.  I just read that article. ... .the depression and panic attacks... .it does sound a lot like what my husband goes through.  Like I said, he's convinced that he has physical brain damage.

[momtara]

I think you are doing your best, and doing some very good things.  In the end, you will have no regrets this way.  You are trying more than most people would.

Just make sure the dogs and kid are ok!

[waverider]

Most importantly you are staying centered and this is important for healthy evolution. You are reforming the direction of your future.

[AnitaL]

Hi Allibaba,

I just wanted to chime in and say that I am so impressed and inspired by reading all that you have done and continue to do in your situation with your husband.  You are an incredibly strong and loving person.  Thank you so much for sharing your struggles and successes. 

AnitaL

[Seashells]

Most importantly you are staying centered and this is important for healthy evolution. You are reforming the direction of your future.

Im pretty sure if I had BPD, or otherwise, I'd be wishing you were around and on my side.   Your insight is so very spot on and comforting, dare I say validating?  .   

I'm quite grateful for the time you spend here.

[allibaba]

Most importantly you are staying centered and this is important for healthy evolution. You are reforming the direction of your future.

I realized yesterday what is probably obvious to everyone else ---

just like the pwBPD using the non as their outlet so that they don't have to look in the mirror - the non often uses the general chaos around the BPD relationship... .trying to fix the BPD (codependent tendencies) as a distraction not to look in the mirror.  (Cartoon lightbulb appears above Alli's head)

And by working the lessons and truly separating his stuff from my stuff - I start to see my own inability to be comfortable in my own skin and I have to ask myself WHY.  And I realized yesterday that by doing some horribly hard work in my BPD relationship then I am allowing myself a shot at being comfortable in my own skin (maybe not immediately but through some further really hard and painful work on myself).

WHOA

And thank you all for the positive and validating comments EVERYONE and I actually got a little teary eyed.  (Seashells, Anita, Momtara, Waverider, KateCat, Grey Kitty, eyvindr, 123Phoebe, connect)  that is kind and thank you - I see every one of you providing such thoughtful guidance and direction and challenging me when I need it).  

I spoke to the therapist yesterday and she asked me 1. how I had survived what I have been through (pure stubbornness) and 2.  what is driving the need for change now -- answer -- having my son and not wanting to continue the cycle of dysfunction and having bpdfamily in my court (one gave me the desire to change, the other has given me the guidance for change).  

We have had 4 very sane (almost normal) days in the house Sat - Tues.  I am excited that the therapist said that I should bring home some DBT skills workbooks for my husband.  

I had this same idea back in March and Grey Kitty told me that it would like be perceived as invalidating (good call at the time), but I have now gone through a necessary process of working on myself and speaking my truth at home and he clearly sees his mental illness staring at him in the face and wants to get better but does not want to go through the stress of adding another medical professional to his life.  My husband is an exceptional human being and though he's very broken, he's very strong. I wouldn't put it past him to do work on himself as long as I continue to enforce the 'new house rules'.  Which really aren't rules at all but are rather boundaries.

[connect]

Hi there Alli,

Glad all is calm in your house  

This spoke to me:

just like the pwBPD using the non as their outlet so that they don't have to look in the mirror - the non often uses the general chaos around the BPD relationship... .trying to fix the BPD (codependent tendencies) as a distraction not to look in the mirror.  (Cartoon lightbulb appears above Alli's head)

I have also had the same thoughts about myself! Sometimes I think if I spent even 20% of the energy I spend trying to figure out my uBPDbf , on figuring out myself I would be all the better for it. In fact my bf has said as much to me a few months back! I think though that working out why we choose to stay can be the first step in looking at ourselves.

Glad your dbt is good. I now have cbt and that's pretty good too :-)

Your "house rules" remind me of a TV programme called "Three Day Nanny" where she goes into a house full of unruly children and sorts it all out in three days. She also has house rules and she says to the household (as you have) that they are for EVERYONE in the house, the kids, the adults and her. Nice idea - no-one is targetted.  

[Grey Kitty]

Allibaba, you are impressing me.

When I said that would be invalidating (back in March) you had some things to learn that you have absolutely nailed by now. One of those lessons is that you don't do something invalidating when it is easy to avoid. So many invalidating statements or actions are completely unnecessary.

This time is so different. For one, you are doing them yourself. For two, your H realizes (at least some of the time) that he really does need help and really does need to do things differently. And lastly, you have the communication skills to pass a difficult message along with the minimum level of invalidation.

I'm also blown away that you are handling your H's major dysregulation, and at the same time, digging deeper into your own issues.

Keep it up!

 GK

[allibaba]

Hi there Grey Kitty,

You got me started on this journey and I so appreciate it.

I always knew that it would be stressful once my husband finished his seasonal job (about a month ago).  Instead of racing to fix things (get him busy) I just let things happen as they were supposed to.  I suppose I have been attempting not to control the outcome in a hope that we could finally see our issues for what they are.  I therefore expected the dysregulation.

Crazy scary process, but I am hopeful for the future.  By continuing to enable him and trying to avoid conflict at all costs - I now know that we'll just end up in a vicious cycle.  So I am letting go of my control and seeing how things play out (while carrying my toolkit with me to protect me in the process).

[KateCat]

If this isn't too odd a thing to say, I envy any therapists you will be working with.   What a pleasure to have such a client. (Almost like that old Fantasy Island episode where a defense attorney is able to live out his dream of having a client who is truly innocent.)

Also thinking you may expect to have some healing sessions regarding any feelings that you failed in attempts to help either one of your parents with their on-going problems . . . .  It may not be super duper difficult for a counselor to identify some core issues for you, and for you to begin to move beyond them.

[allibaba]

Hi KateCat you're funny,

My main end game here is to try to heal some of the huge pain I feel in my heart for what happened to my dad (wonderful, intelligent man, the guy who sheltered me from my BPD mom, and also an alcoholic)... .I was in my early 20's when his drinking got really bad (he was divorced and alone and I was one of his only contacts). I think that I am in my BPD relationship because of the abusive dynamic in my house and my role of always trying to 'save' the situation (a codependent who walked on eggshells).  Well I don't believe in life that we are given more than we can handle and maybe my BPD relationship is my opportunity to overcome my issues.

I was in a different country when my dad's drinking got heavy.  At the time I idolized him as a person.  We talked frequently but I never bothered to find out where he was at.  It was very superficial.  I was too enabling and codependent to even notice what was going on with him.  He had people in the same apt complex stealing money from him and using his phone to call their relatives in other countries.  He was short on money and ended up declaring bankruptcy (only learned about it after the fact).  He was living in pure filth.  The kind of filth that would blow your mind.  He was driving... .he could have killed himself.  I had been there 6 month earlier and he had been sober for 6 months and then he went back to drinking and everything blew apart.

Long story short - I convinced him at quite a late stage that he needed help (detox) but even then I was too selfish to get on a plane and take him there (partially because I was busy enabling my BPD husband, partially because I was too focused on my work), he listened to me though and tried to quit on his own, he was alone in his own apt started having hallucinations - called the police (who fortunately realized something was wrong and called an ambulance).  He had done some serious brain damage by that point and doctors told me that he needed to go into hospice to die peacefully.  My brother and I just didn't believe it.  Through research and persistence we found out that he had a treatable condition which the doctors had glazed over - we got him into a brain rehabilitation and after 6 months of treatment he was able to live on his own (sober) for probably 3 yrs.  Over the last 2 years, he has gotten alzheimer's and he lives in a happy fantasy world in a locked unit.  I talk to him a couple of times a week and visit once every 6 months (finally really taking time to be part of his life - good but feels like too little too late).

Despite the fact that I did a lot to try to help my dad, I still feel primarily responsible for what 'happened to him' because I was the one closet to him emotionally (even though in my mind I know it can't possibly be my fault that he is an alcoholic and he made decisions to drink). 

I think that if I had better boundaries with him and hadn't been completely wrapped up in my husband - things might not have gotten so far.  Probably true but something that I clearly need to let go of.

I have a history of trying to 'save people in my life with half @ssed attempts'.  Through this situation with my husband I am learning to stand up for RIGHT in a kind way and not be afraid to lose the thing that I love the most.  That way maybe I can lose my demons of not doing things properly in my history... . and obviously its a good chance to really use therapy to make myself better and have a good shot at being a good model for my son.

I don't think that the therapist quite knew what to make of me.  In the visit to the therapist we only talked about my husband's current situation and our recent journey.  She was like 'well having your background in advance I was going to recommend STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS but that's kind of stage 1 and this whole bpdfamily site has you well past that stage'.   

Going through this with my husband is a real true growing process for me... .and separating my stuff from his stuff is finally allowing me to see 'my stuff'.  And again WHOA... .no wonder I was hiding in the chaos of my BPD relationship.