The push/pull

[ColdEthyl]

I know about I hate you... .don't leave me. But I also experience things like... .

I want these gifts... .stop buying me gifts.

Call me when you are about to leave... .stop calling me so much.

I like chicken legs cooked well done... .I hate chicken legs.

I want to go to work... .I don't want to work.

The other thing I find loosely connected is sex has been weird. Some of you know... .I have been dealing with some ED or "ED" issues (not sure if it's real or not) Several this month, he has tried to initiate things as I'm falling asleep. No matter how much I try to tell him no... .he keeps trying until either I pretend to be asleep... .or I cave in. This is after months of not getting anywhere.

Are all of these push/pull things because he seriously doesn't know what he wants/likes, or does what he wants/likes change based on his mood? In reference to the sex question, is he trying to overcompensate for the issues we have been having? How can I say 'no' in a way he can understand?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[takingandsending]

Hi cold one. 

I think the initiating sex when you are sleepy thing is a big safety issue. At least the very few, and I mean, years rolling by few times, that my wife has initiated sex, it is generally when she knows that I am asleep and really not likely to respond. It is all about safety. That's often why she introduces "Topics of Great Import"   as I am nodding off to sleep. She knows that it's safe, she can maintain control, I am likely to invalidate her by not responding, which is a way of maintaining her identity as the victim and martyr. The way to get him to stop is to respond enthusiastically and let him know how badly you want to make love at that moment. He will run for the hills, I bet. 

[tjay933]

The way to get him to stop is to respond enthusiastically and let him know how badly you want to make love at that moment. He will run for the hills, I bet.  grin

or you'll have something else to write about-lack of sleep. 

[Notwendy]

My H has another explanation for pursuing me when I am the least interested.

He says that it makes him feel wanted if I could override fatigue or other reason because I just want him that badly. His explanation is that if he was some attractive movie star, I would wake up, so if he can get me to wake up that I would find him as desirable.

I'm glad he admitted this, but to me it just seemed creepy. The result is that I faced the dilemma of taking care of my need for sleep- and having him rage at me and then I wouldn't sleep. Or giving in, so that I could get to sleep. Neither had anything to do with my finding him attractive or not.

Another one that is similar to you ColdEthyl, is that he complains that I "never" initiate sex and then, when I do, he turns me down.

[ColdEthyl]

Thank you for the replies everyone!

Takingandsending... .that makes so much sense. I actually had done that once. At first I said I was sleepy, I gotta work, it's really late... .then in my head I steeled myself for it. I said to myself that I wanted him to try more, so take the opportunity. So, I tried. To make a long story short, it never happened. He did... .in fact... .back off like a roach that just got a light shone on it. I wasn't sure how to feel about that... .but what you said fits.

@Notwendy I recall us comparing notes before... .the similarities are scary. What you said also makes sense. The 'attractive movie star' portion brings up another conversation that makes me want to pull my hair out. I personally don't find most of the men attractive in Hollywood that most females do. The first few years we were together... .he thought I was lying. Now, I point out certain guys I think are hot because HE doesn't have a problem doing it. The other night... .he mumbled something about who was I going to sleep dreaming about. I asked him what he said... .and he was like "Oh Nothing."

That's been a new thing. He will say something a little under his breath... .and I catch most of it. But when I ask him what he said, he says he didn't say anything.

He's also been jealous about a video game we play. On it your character can choose to have a 'relationship' with another character. His had several relationships, then when I started playing and had one for my character he stopped his. He's never outright said anything but he will make snarky comments, and won't play with the character mine is in a r/s with. He said to the TV "dude, you used to be cool but now you are F--ing my wife" It's like he actually feels threatened by the equivalent of a cartoon character. O.o

**Edit: I should clarify... .this video game isn't like... .second life or WoW or Sims with interactions with other live players. This is Mass Effect for anyone who games. It's a space game.

[takingandsending]

I hope there's a medal or trophy somewhere that rewards all the craziness we deal with in our lives  , and I only hope it doesn't state ":)ied clinging to the foolish belief that [fill in partner's name here] would change". The fact that I am still waiting for my medal seems to make it more likely it will state exactly what I don't want it to.   

[ColdEthyl]

I hope there's a medal or trophy somewhere that rewards all the craziness we deal with in our lives  , and I only hope it doesn't state ":)ied clinging to the foolish belief that [fill in partner's name here] would change". The fact that I am still waiting for my medal seems to make it more likely it will state exactly what I don't want it to.   

haha! I know now he won't change... .but darn it all if I could, I'd glue that sweet, charming, awesome face I used to see more often permanently on!

[Notwendy]

ColdEthyl,

When my H gets upset about another man, it has made no sense to me since it seemed to not be in proportion to the threat. It's not as if he doesn't notice. I can see him pay attention when a Victoria's Secret commercial is playing on the TV, but it isn't a big deal to me. He's a straight male and he has eyes! and an almost naked supermodel is on TV. Now, if he was obsessed, or addicted, that would be a different thing.

Likewise, if I were obsessed with a movie star or rock star, that would be an issue, and IMHO a strange thing to do. There are actors who I think are talented and attractive- and who play interesting movie roles that are usually worth seeing. I'm not attracted to them like a teenage crush,or attracted to them like I want to have a r/s with them. I know that their movie persona is an act, not who they really are and I will likely not run into anyone of them. Yet my H has made a point of saying " If I were this actor you'd want me more".

I think his statements are more based on his internal feelings than reality. It's actually very sad. Before I understood what was going on with my H, I took all his accusations and insults to heart. The push/pull made me feel unatractive. I'm not even sure I know what being "attracted" to someone in a healthy way would feel as opposed to the codependency I was raised with.

[ColdEthyl]

Likewise, if I were obsessed with a movie star or rock star, that would be an issue, and IMHO a strange thing to do. There are actors who I think are talented and attractive- and who play interesting movie roles that are usually worth seeing. I'm not attracted to them like a teenage crush,or attracted to them like I want to have a r/s with them.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I guess it's just the insecurities... .but he will tell me she's got nice this... .or I had a total crush on X when I was 15, which doesn't phase me but if I say the same... .like he kept badgering me to tell him... .blah!

It's BPDland. I can't make sense of it

[Grey Kitty]

This is exactly what I am talking about. I guess it's just the insecurities... .but he will tell me she's got nice this... .or I had a total crush on X when I was 15, which doesn't phase me but if I say the same... .like he kept badgering me to tell him... .blah!

It's BPDland. I can't make sense of it

If you stop pretending that he thinks like you do, it will go a lot better for you!

Yes, he can say that, and you can take it at face value and not get upset.

No, it isn't the same when turned around. (Anybody noticed the difference between 1000 threats by a pwBPD to leave/divorce, vs. the fireworks the first time you mention the possibility?)

In other words, no, it isn't safe to tell him that you think an actor is hot, or that you once had a crush on a guy. If there are any others you've never mentioned, keep them that way!

[ColdEthyl]

You know GK, I did that for awhile then he accused me of lying about it! It's a lose/lose. 

[Grey Kitty]

You know GK, I did that for awhile then he accused me of lying about it! It's a lose/lose. 

If he doesn't bring it up, you not bringing it up is a win/win! But that isn't what you are describing.

Given the history, the next time he asks about it I'd seriously consider saying "Nothing good will come of me answering that question."

And if he accuses you of lying when you aren't... .boundary enforcement time. Don't subject yourself to grilling and false accusations.

[Notwendy]

You're right GK. I know that now.

It's not that I am lusting over every movie star all day long, but each time the topic has come up, that one might be attractive, the reaction is far out of proportion to the comment. Sometimes it isn't even about me, but saying something like that candidate looks good on television- during an election, with the idea that a candidate that presents himself well and looks good on camera is likely to be seen favorably by voters will prompt my H to discuss how that candidate isn't good looking- as if he could change my mind.

My H discovered some old crushes I had in school- and went balistic. It's normal to have a teen crush. By the time he went on shaming me about them, I felt like the town slut even if nothing major happened.

However, if a hot actress is on TV, or a Victoria's Secret commercial is on, I know he's looking. and sometimes he says "wow"... like every other straight male watching the TV... it isn't personal. There is a reason they choose those models- because they look good in what they want to sell.

There's no explaining it, just better to not say it.

[ColdEthyl]

I'm learning... .ever so slowly. Thanks for the advice It's hard to act differently than you think you should naturally. I have already started doing things on my own without waiting for his help, consent, or when he decides to bail. Standing up for myself in the barrages is next. I suspect he will buck and fight a lot more in the beginning. I just have to make sure my toolbox is all full and ready to go

[Grey Kitty]

Standing up for myself in the barrages is next. I suspect he will buck and fight a lot more in the beginning. I just have to make sure my toolbox is all full and ready to go

You don't stand up to a barrage. You walk out on it. Seriously. The only tools you need are the ones that will remove yourself from a harmful discussion/argument/confrontation/accusation/being berated/verbal abuse/whatever you call it that is going to leave you feeling like CRAP because you can't avoid taking some of it to heart... .

And the wonderful thing about nailing THIS boundary... .is that this is what he's gonna do during his extinction bursts when you enforce other boundaries. So having it ready will serve you very well.

Do you need a refresher on it? I know you've been around for a while and read lots of the tools here.

[Jack_50]

It's hard to act differently than you think you should naturally.

If I may, this is one of our core problems. 

We react in a natural way to the events around us, because that's how we have learned to react through experience.

Thing is, with a BPD or otherwise emotionally unstable person, the events around us are created deliberately for a reason, and do NOT represent reality as it is; they represent the (desperate) interpretation of said person.

Once you manage to train yourself to see all his/her actions in that context, it becomes a lot easier to step out and stay out of his/her frame. 

And become your sane self again.


It's an interesting skill to learn; as well as learning to control your natural reactions in all situations.



Jack


Oh Life, why does thy throw such challenges my way... .

[ColdEthyl]

Standing up for myself in the barrages is next. I suspect he will buck and fight a lot more in the beginning. I just have to make sure my toolbox is all full and ready to go

You don't stand up to a barrage. You walk out on it. Seriously. The only tools you need are the ones that will remove yourself from a harmful discussion/argument/confrontation/accusation/being berated/verbal abuse/whatever you call it that is going to leave you feeling like CRAP because you can't avoid taking some of it to heart... .

And the wonderful thing about nailing THIS boundary... .is that this is what he's gonna do during his extinction bursts when you enforce other boundaries. So having it ready will serve you very well.

Do you need a refresher on it? I know you've been around for a while and read lots of the tools here.

I know and I wouldn't having a problem doing that... .but one of my main problems with leaving is I have 2 children from a previous marriage that I can't pick up in the middle of the night and leave with. He usually dysregulates late at night, and is quiet enough to not let the kids hear him. He would be terribly embarrassed if they had heard.

I don't feel right leaving the house with him in that state with the kids there. I'm not willing to take that sort of risk. I have tried leaving the room... .he just follows me. Perhaps I could try just sitting outside... .

@Jack_50 I know you are right... .just like GK said I can't try to put my thought process on him... .it doesn't work. It has been helpful so far in other applications of my life such as dealing with co-workers. Some of them can be quite difficult, and using the same language I use with my H works pretty well

[takingandsending]

ColdEthyl,

The "No good will come of answering this question" is one that I use when I realize I am being backed into JADE with my wife. Every person is different. My wife doesn't care for this response, but she knows that I am not going to go any further into where she is trying to enroll me when I state it. It's not win-win, but it's not really lose-really lose that comes with the escalation when I JADE.

Sometimes, I will be on the verge of defending something when I realize she is trying to enroll me in her personal reality, and I state stuff like, "No. I am not going to do this. Nothing  good will come from defending myself" or "This isn't helping you or me, and I don't want to upset you further." These are true statements, so I don't have to sell them. They are frustrating, but I have created enough of a boundary and practice of disengaging that she gives up the pursuit after a few more tries. I think that taking a walk and saying, "I will be back in 15 minutes. I am going to clear my head." could work in your case. You can walk around the block or just stay close to the house if you are worried for your children's sake. Also, how old are your kids? Can you tell them that you sometimes need to do this and why you need to do it so that if they do wake while you are out, they won't be alarmed?

[tjay933]

Also, how old are your kids? Can you tell them that you sometimes need to do this and why you need to do it so that if they do wake while you are out, they won't be alarmed?

very good point. in your BPDs mind you may be abandoning them depending on how he chooses to take your going for a walk and may verbalize this unconsciously to the kids if they notice and ask him at all. the last thing you would want imo is for the kids to start thinking you even might not come back.

[ColdEthyl]

Yes my kids are 14 and 10, and they are both aware of his BPD. I have spoken to them about the condition and it's effects that way if they ever do hear... .which thus far they have once in 5 years... .they won't be upset or afraid... .at least not as much as if they didn't know.

I did not think of saying anything to them in case I needed to leave. That could work. I'd hate to drag them into this... .but in essence that's what I have done by marrying him. I though about it some more, and I am going to try something like "I need a break. I am going to sit in the car and listen to music to collect my thoughts, and I will be back in 15 minutes" and see how that goes. He might be mad enough to yell at me to never come back... .but keep himself in the house.

[tjay933]

I like the sounds of that plan. the good news is that even if he followed you out, you could just raise the volume on the radio and close your eyes.

good plan.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't feel right leaving the house with him in that state with the kids there. I'm not willing to take that sort of risk. I have tried leaving the room... .he just follows me. Perhaps I could try just sitting outside... .

He's got you trapped and he knows it.

As long as he's quiet enough not to wake up the kids, you will listen to him berating you.

It works for him.

It obviously isn't working well for you.

If you want a different situation, don't look to him to make the changes for you.

[ColdEthyl]

I don't feel right leaving the house with him in that state with the kids there. I'm not willing to take that sort of risk. I have tried leaving the room... .he just follows me. Perhaps I could try just sitting outside... .

He's got you trapped and he knows it.

As long as he's quiet enough not to wake up the kids, you will listen to him berating you.

It works for him.

It obviously isn't working well for you.

If you want a different situation, don't look to him to make the changes for you.

*nods* damn it. Sly little suckers. I will try sitting in the car and see how that goes. I didn't know if there was some way to cut off/reduce the rantings, but I guess the only way to do that is not be present for it.

[Grey Kitty]

*nods* damn it. Sly little suckers. I will try sitting in the car and see how that goes. I didn't know if there was some way to cut off/reduce the rantings, but I guess the only way to do that is not be present for it.

Here's a thought experiment for you.

Choice A: Drive off in the car to get away from him. (Leaving him in charge of the kids who are sleeping or at least supposed to be.)

Choice B: Wake up and bundle up your kids, get in the car, and drive off to get away from him.

If you *HAD* to choose one of those, which would be better for your kids?

[tjay933]

since they are sly little suckers make sure you have a set of keys where he won't find them once you decide to go to the car so that he can't block you from that option.

[ColdEthyl]

since they are sly little suckers make sure you have a set of keys where he won't find them once you decide to go to the car so that he can't block you from that option.

*points* yep. He's thrown my keys before... .well pretended to... .when he didn't want me to leave. Good call.

GK I'll try Option 1 if just sitting in the car doesn't work. I can drive down the street and be close the house if anything happens. I'd like to think he wouldn't do anything... .but when he gets that far into rage he does break things, and that's what makes me nervous. Option 2 would be if option 1 goes back I guess. I'm trying my hardest not to involve them in his crap.

[tjay933]

I've also heard they will stand between you and the door to keep you from leaving. be prepared for that too. is there a bathroom window just in case-you could say you need to go to the bathroom and jump out the window?

[ColdEthyl]

I've also heard they will stand between you and the door to keep you from leaving. be prepared for that too. is there a bathroom window just in case-you could say you need to go to the bathroom and jump out the window?

He will. My bathroom window is too small to get through. I could just say I'm going to the bathroom and head straight out rofl

[tjay933]

the important thing-imo- is to have a plan for any contingency. or maybe a few plans in case he thinks ahead for next time?

[Grey Kitty]

I've also heard they will stand between you and the door to keep you from leaving. be prepared for that too. is there a bathroom window just in case-you could say you need to go to the bathroom and jump out the window?

There is another solution. Blocking your access to leave meets the legal definition of domestic violence. Make sure you have your cell phone in hand... .put in 911 and inform him that it is not legal for him to do this, and you will call the police right now if he doesn't let you pass safely.

Say it and mean it. This is a dangerous escalation toward physical violence; do not let it happen unchecked.

Just make sure you don't say it when you don't mean it, and aren't ready to crunch a few dozen cartons of eggshells by involving the police. Saying it and backing down is a really bad precedent to set.


I *really* hope things don't get to this level... .still be prepared for difficult extinction bursts, with actions to protect yourself throughout the escalation process figured out in advance. Find the "Safety First" link about making a safety plan. And make one. You will feel better having it ready, and I sincerely hope you never need to execute any parts of it.