Repetitive argument rhetoric

[ColdEthyl]

I need some coping strategies, and I was hoping others have dealt with this.

My husband is dBPD, and I did a classic screw up last night. I was exhausted from work (which I know to never mention because if I do, well... .I'm just trying to make him feel bad for not working) and all I wanted was just to watch some tv or read and get some sleep. What ends up happening because HE had a bad day is the hours long rantings about whatever unseemly injustice that has befell him this time. My son has Asperger's, and he was at his doctor's office that morning, and my husband noticed his socks were a bit too big, and had 2 tiny holes from where you could see.

Well that caused him huge amount of embarrassment, because he says the doctor is going to judge us a "white trash" now that she saw "the socks that went 6 inches, 8 inches, or 10 inches up his leg" (depending on which time he yelled at me about it) and the 4-14 holes (again, depending on which time he yelled at me about it)

When he gets like this... .when I'm not tired, I can negate it pretty good. However when I'm tired... .I just feel like screaming that I don't have time for this crap. What ends up happening is the bugger can tell I'm irritated, and that will just make it worse. And he will repeat the same rhetoric over and over and over and over... .until... .shoot I don't know... .runs out of gas? It's like his thoughts get stuck on a hamster wheel.

Anyone else experience this? Is there a good way to negate the situation? The staring off into space for hours until he runs out of steam is getting old.

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[mjsunshine]

I am a Managing Director for a company that requires alot of Business Travel. My schedule fluctuates in a manner that one or two weeks a month I am at different destinations. He sees my airline res and knows exactly that I am there for marketing/sales purposes. However, every once in awhile he reacts like I am doing something on the side or cheating on him. Where the hell is the time? (If I had it, I would vacation from this!)

[ColdEthyl]

I am a Managing Director for a company that requires alot of Business Travel. My schedule fluctuates in a manner that one or two weeks a month I am at different destinations. He sees my airline res and knows exactly that I am there for marketing/sales purposes. However, every once in awhile he reacts like I am doing something on the side or cheating on him. Where the hell is the time? (If I had it, I would vacation from this!)

Yep... .I work in the medical field and he thinks I'm screwing doctors in my office all day long.

[mjsunshine]

Apologize. That was not very helpful advice. I just had a crash w/ mine too. The repetitive thing I am not sure will ever stop. It goes in stages and depending on the different types of meds (if or if not taken) will be much the same. I do understand what you are meaning about the rhetoric and the "I said" then taking it back/denying  it all together.

What I have figured out (and it won't work for everyone) is to quickly switch the conversation about something he enjoys (sports, vacation, family, pets, whatever) and then that becomes the concentration instead of the confused or angry repetition of the illogical other thing.

[ColdEthyl]

oo a misdirect! good idea! That might work.

Yeah that drives me nuts too... .when he says something over and over, then turns around and acts like he never said it. I thought of recording him and replaying it... .but I'm certain that's not a very good idea It seems like he "cycles" where he won't have one of these episodes for a month or more, then I might get 1 or 2, and then nothing again. He seems to be worse in the winter.

It's hard to absolve the fact that everything I feel will always be in the back seat. Most days, I am strong and handle it just fine. Other days, I don't and I yearn for someone who can listen to me for a change. I want to go to counseling, but I'm afraid if I do that, he's going to say things about it, IE "I'm sorry I'm so horrible to deal with that you need counseling to deal with me" which is what he said when I was reading the eggshells book, before I just took it to work and read it on my lunch breaks.

Apologize. That was not very helpful advice. I just had a crash w/ mine too. The repetitive thing I am not sure will ever stop. It goes in stages and depending on the different types of meds (if or if not taken) will be much the same. I do understand what you are meaning about the rhetoric and the "I said" then taking it back/denying  it all together.

What I have figured out (and it won't work for everyone) is to quickly switch the conversation about something he enjoys (sports, vacation, family, pets, whatever) and then that becomes the concentration instead of the confused or angry repetition of the illogical other thing.

[Cat21]

I could use help with that too, coldethyl!  I, too, just didn't have the energy for the dance tonight (had my first T session today and am feeling emotionally drained), so I gave in and fought right back when he started in on me about a piece of lint in the dryer. Arrggghhhh!

I hadn't thought about a misdirect. Hmmm... How would that work?

[ColdEthyl]

I feel ya. I actually ended up having a pretty good night last night, though it started bad. I called him before leaving work, and I asked him if he wanted to out to see the sunset (nature is calming for him) and get some chinese. He was upbeat and sounded excited. When I got home, I started to change out of my work clothes, and I went to grab my jeans... .realized they weren't there and sighed.

That sighing was enough to throw him off again. He started in on me about coming home "pissed off" (I sighed out of irritation, mind you. Not anger. Not directed at him)

We ended up in about a 15 min yelling match, I even went all out telling him I'm done, I'm tired I can't keep doing this. I told him he could go stay with his son if he wanted to continue to berate me.

He started crying and apologizing, he said he has been full of anger the passed few days (He doesn't process daily life struggles at all) And he was waiting to be mad at me. He was waiting for me to do something... .anything he could pounce on. He said when I come home, he misses me all day and he just wants me to sit down with him for a little bit before I get up to run around and do all the things I need to do. He admitted that he's been a jerk, that he isn't processing his stress well, but he did feel better after getting it out.

We made an agreement that he gets the first 30 minutes of my time when I get home. I felt like this was a reasonable request, so we will see if that helps anything at all.

We still went out and enjoyed the sunset and dinner just fine, like nothing happened the past few days. When we got home, he fell asleep at 9pm. I had several hours to myself of quiet. I played video games, read, enjoyed some ice cream... .oh man it was nice. I needed that time alone. I awoke this morning feeling recharged and ready for the next round

As far as the misdirect, I didn't try to apply it yesterday, I was too frustrated to think clearly. What I'm planning on trying is next time he starts looping his complaint, after he has said all the words he wants to say, I will validate his thoughts and feelings, then just kinda bring something up. For us, our dogs would be a perfect thing. He loved sports, and I got a few things ducked away to bring up for a rainy day... .see if we can't derail that poisonous thinking.

I could use help with that too, coldethyl!  I, too, just didn't have the energy for the dance tonight (had my first T session today and am feeling emotionally drained), so I gave in and fought right back when he started in on me about a piece of lint in the dryer. Arrggghhhh!

I hadn't thought about a misdirect. Hmmm... How would that work?

[maxsterling]

Glad to hear you had a good night

Regarding the "misdirect" idea - be careful! My fiancé is often wise to attempts at changing the subject, and changing the subject makes her feel invalidated, like I don't care about her concerns.  The rage escalates, and then my only option is to listen to her scream and curse at the top of her lungs, or leave. 

There are also times when the misdirect happens on it's own, such as a friend calling or stopping by, an appointment, etc.  Her arguments had seems so absurd that I would think that after something or someone got her off track for awhile, she would just forget it.  But hours or even days later, she will say that the issue has not resolved itself yet and wants to resume the argument.  Yet, it's an issue that there really is no resolution to. 

I think what happens here is that the pwBPD has a strong emotion that's not based on reality.  And every time that emotion comes up, they have the same blame, and use the same argument.  The issue is unresolvable, because the real issue is their emotion, and only they can satisfy their emotion.  Validation works, but only until the next time that emotion happens, and then you have to validate again, and again. 

A common one I get is that the house is too disorganized.  The reality?  Her brain is too disorganized.  And no matter how organized we make the house, no matter how many shelving units I install or hooks I put in the closet, she will always feel like the house is too disorganized.  And anytime she is feeling anxious or stressed, she blames the house being disorganized as part of her problem.  Last time it happened, I challenged her to help me organize.  I reminded her that a year ago when she moved in I cleared out a drawer in the file cabinet for her.  I reminded her that she decided not to use it, declared the file cabinet too ugly, so I moved it to another room, and used the drawer for myself.  I reminded her I installed a wall of bookshelves in the office room to help get things organized.  I then asked her what I could do now to solve this issue, and she had no answer.  So, I repainted the file cabinet, moved it back into the office, and told her that if the house is to be organized, SHE NEEDS TO PARTICIPATE.  That was maybe a week or two ago, and she's mostly been quiet about it since.  I think part of the reason is that our T challenged her on this, about what we can do now to solve the problem, and what we can do in the future.  And the T challenged her to think about what she did when she lived alone regarding cleaning and organization, to which she replied that she didn't clean, and when her apartment got too messy she hired someone. 

Maybe that is the best approach.  Validate his emotion, then challenge him on what can be done right now to solve it.  My guess is he will have no answers.

[LilHurt420]

I get stuck in this cycle quite often too.  It's usually about something I've done in the past and him going over what could have happened (as opposed to what actually did happen) or it's about how he feels I'm not giving him enough credit for anything.  It's exhausting and I have never really learned how to navigate it.  At first I tried talking back, but that didn't work because he'd just get me stuck in run around and changing facts (in these moments he makes up stuff that never happened and I can't argue with him or it'll divert the conversation).  Then I tried just being quiet but that didn't work because it either just went on and on for hours or I get accused of not listening or caring.  Lately I've tried listening for a short amount of time and then cutting it off (I'm pregnant... and always exhausted).  That didn't work either because when I walk away I'm told how I don't care and I run away from everything.

I'm at a loss... .and just exhausted.

How do you normally negate these episodes?

[ColdEthyl]

It amazes me at how much he complains about, but doesn't do anything about it. You're upset your clothes aren't washed? Here's an idea... .wash them! Upset the living room needs to be tidied? Ok... .pick up a broom. That's the most infuriating. And you're right, a lot of it is either super petty, or things that cannot be changed right now and he will have no answer, because it's the feelings that are wrong. You are so right on that.

Lilhurt420, a lot of it has to do with that fact that he admits he has a problem, and he really does try. Now, my ranting over the past few days probably doesn't seem that way, but this is the first episode like this in over a month. The frequency of them has gone down over the past 2 years, but they won't ever go away.

Key points to taming the beast in my experience: Direct eye contact when he's raging, validate feelings with language like "I understand" "I see how that can be frustrating" etc

AVOID "YOU" statements. I can't stress that one enough. Do not say things in an argument with them like "You need to calm down, you could have done this," etc. It makes them feel like you are placing blame (even if they are to blame) which puts them on defense. Try to reword it like... .instead of saying "You are over reacting" say like "I can see this emotion is really strong right now. Judgment might be getting cloudy here"

Glad to hear you had a good night

Regarding the "misdirect" idea - be careful! My fiancé is often wise to attempts at changing the subject, and changing the subject makes her feel invalidated, like I don't care about her concerns.  The rage escalates, and then my only option is to listen to her scream and curse at the top of her lungs, or leave. 

There are also times when the misdirect happens on it's own, such as a friend calling or stopping by, an appointment, etc.  Her arguments had seems so absurd that I would think that after something or someone got her off track for awhile, she would just forget it.  But hours or even days later, she will say that the issue has not resolved itself yet and wants to resume the argument.  Yet, it's an issue that there really is no resolution to. 

I think what happens here is that the pwBPD has a strong emotion that's not based on reality.  And every time that emotion comes up, they have the same blame, and use the same argument.  The issue is unresolvable, because the real issue is their emotion, and only they can satisfy their emotion.  Validation works, but only until the next time that emotion happens, and then you have to validate again, and again. 

A common one I get is that the house is too disorganized.  The reality?  Her brain is too disorganized.  And no matter how organized we make the house, no matter how many shelving units I install or hooks I put in the closet, she will always feel like the house is too disorganized.  And anytime she is feeling anxious or stressed, she blames the house being disorganized as part of her problem.  Last time it happened, I challenged her to help me organize.  I reminded her that a year ago when she moved in I cleared out a drawer in the file cabinet for her.  I reminded her that she decided not to use it, declared the file cabinet too ugly, so I moved it to another room, and used the drawer for myself.  I reminded her I installed a wall of bookshelves in the office room to help get things organized.  I then asked her what I could do now to solve this issue, and she had no answer.  So, I repainted the file cabinet, moved it back into the office, and told her that if the house is to be organized, SHE NEEDS TO PARTICIPATE.  That was maybe a week or two ago, and she's mostly been quiet about it since.  I think part of the reason is that our T challenged her on this, about what we can do now to solve the problem, and what we can do in the future.  And the T challenged her to think about what she did when she lived alone regarding cleaning and organization, to which she replied that she didn't clean, and when her apartment got too messy she hired someone. 

Maybe that is the best approach.  Validate his emotion, then challenge him on what can be done right now to solve it.  My guess is he will have no answers.

[LilHurt420]

Lilhurt420, a lot of it has to do with that fact that he admits he has a problem, and he really does try.

I should add... .his ranting about not getting credit doesn't have to do with him trying.  He sometimes admits he has a problem (but refuses do get help or medication for it).  But he doesn't try to fix anything, he feels entitled to how he acts and all his feelings.  He admits the abuse he puts me through is wrong, but feels that it's validated because of how he feels in the moment.  I refuse to validate that it's ok to abuse me or anyone for that matter. The other night he ranted about how yes he knows if anyone knew about the abuse they'd think it's wrong, but he could explain to them why he does it and then they'd understand. 

His rants about not getting credit are for crazy things.  For example... .the other day it was because he had found a new song that I happened to also like (one thing we've always had in common is the type of music we listen to), then on instagram another artist I like posted a video dancing to the same song.  He was upset because when I saw the video I didn't give my husband credit for finding the song first.

[ColdEthyl]

Sounds so familiar one of the biggest things my husband and I have in common is music. I have found artists to share that he likes, and down the road he will sometimes try to bring them up to me like its brand new, and he found it. It's part of that whole rewriting of history deal... .they need the narrative to fit what they feel.

You got a foot in the door with him admitting his issues. Now, he is trying to rationalize it, because they cannot be wrong. Ever. Because if they are wrong, then they have no value, and there is no reason for you to love them or anyone to like them. This type of thinking will take time to work on. I believe most of the time, it's not a conscious thought, rather it's how their brain is hardwired to respond to negative emotion.

What does that do for you? Well you get the prize of dealing with it!

Lilhurt420, a lot of it has to do with that fact that he admits he has a problem, and he really does try.

I should add... .his ranting about not getting credit doesn't have to do with him trying.  He sometimes admits he has a problem (but refuses do get help or medication for it).  But he doesn't try to fix anything, he feels entitled to how he acts and all his feelings.  He admits the abuse he puts me through is wrong, but feels that it's validated because of how he feels in the moment.  I refuse to validate that it's ok to abuse me or anyone for that matter. The other night he ranted about how yes he knows if anyone knew about the abuse they'd think it's wrong, but he could explain to them why he does it and then they'd understand. 

His rants about not getting credit are for crazy things.  For example... .the other day it was because he had found a new song that I happened to also like (one thing we've always had in common is the type of music we listen to), then on instagram another artist I like posted a video dancing to the same song.  He was upset because when I saw the video I didn't give my husband credit for finding the song first.

[bungenstein]

When my ex was raging the same thing over and over again at me, I would try to explain my point to her, but she just couldn't or wouldn't understand, she just doesn't listen or acknowledge anything you say, and she will just carry on going on about the same thing over and over and over.

I started resorting to using a white board and drawing diagrams to try and get her to understand something.

When that failed, I would write individual words, and ask her if she understood the meaning of each word, until it made a sentence, then ask if she understood that sentence.

Nothing works.

I then realised you have to be a demented lunatic to keep on dealing with a demented lunatic.

[JohnLove]

Oh dear people. I am experiencing these very things tonight. I tried to maintain my distance from my BPDgf and I didn't return to her for the last 2 nights because of arguments in regard to behaviour toward other men. It upset me greatly to witness the complicated mess that are a total lack of boundaries and enmeshing with her landlord. There is something wrong with him. He has behaved in a bizarre manner at times. He keeps calling over her home because it is in a state of disrepair and needs maintenance. She has asked him to repair some things. He makes half assed half hearted attempts. She did or said something that somehow gave him the wrong idea and she is behind in her rent as well. I can see them becoming enmeshed and I can see him maneuvering.

I have told her she started this and she needs to finish it. I feel extremely uncomfortable and distressed about the situation. I have removed myself. I called by her home to pick up some filtered water and she was listening to very loud music with her 3 young children in bed. I don't know how they could be asleep. She had drunk almost a litre of whiskey. She was a mess and asked for a hug. I went inside and she became very abusive. I have tried to explain my feelings. I have done so many things in an attempt to convince her that her behaviour is not only severely destructive to our relationship. We are about to break up over it. She feels when she talks to her T tomorrow at a scheduled appointment he will have her hospitalized.

After she collapsed in the shower after vomiting and was passing out she flooded the bathroom, laundry and hallway from laying on the shower drain. I picked her up, dried her off, and put her to bed but not before she vomited some more.

She completely changed her tune after this, continually apologized, told me she loved me over and over. Told me she can't live without me, said she wanted to die, told me she would rather die than hurt me, called me her rock, was VERY remorseful. A side I don't often see.

ColdEthyl. What you say is just so true. It has been my experience. Just your post alone has helped me so much. Thank you.

Help guys. This is part vent but I would appreciate advice, opinions , or input please.

[ColdEthyl]

Oh yes... .all too familiar. It DOES help to talk about it, but other than misdirect I'm not sure how much we can do. I tried to talk to him about a boy who wants to visit my daughter (both 14) and he just wouldn't even listen to me. It's like... .whatever narrative they have in their head ahead of time is the the truth, even if they haven't heard a word we said. I tried a few times to say ummm no... .I definitely wasn't suggested a sleepover quit exaggerating... .Ummm no... .I didn't make a decision without you... .but he doesn't HEAR me.

I wish I had a place to start with that problem.


John, they cycle like that. Mine will do the same... .I'm the only thing that keeps him going... .I'm his rock... .He'd kill himself if something happened to me or I left... yaddayadda. Early in the relationship, it made me feel important. Now that I know what it is... .I just pat his hand and say "there there".

Oh dear people. I am experiencing these very things tonight. I tried to maintain my distance from my BPDgf and I didn't return to her for the last 2 nights because of arguments in regard to behaviour toward other men. It upset me greatly to witness the complicated mess that are a total lack of boundaries and enmeshing with her landlord. There is something wrong with him. He has behaved in a bizarre manner at times. He keeps calling over her home because it is in a state of disrepair and needs maintenance. She has asked him to repair some things. He makes half assed half hearted attempts. She did or said something that somehow gave him the wrong idea and she is behind in her rent as well. I can see them becoming enmeshed and I can see him maneuvering.

I have told her she started this and she needs to finish it. I feel extremely uncomfortable and distressed about the situation. I have removed myself. I called by her home to pick up some filtered water and she was listening to very loud music with her 3 young children in bed. I don't know how they could be asleep. She had drunk almost a litre of whiskey. She was a mess and asked for a hug. I went inside and she became very abusive. I have tried to explain my feelings. I have done so many things in an attempt to convince her that her behaviour is not only severely destructive to our relationship. We are about to break up over it. She feels when she talks to her T tomorrow at a scheduled appointment he will have her hospitalized.

After she collapsed in the shower after vomiting and was passing out she flooded the bathroom, laundry and hallway from laying on the shower drain. I picked her up, dried her off, and put her to bed but not before she vomited some more.

She completely changed her tune after this, continually apologized, told me she loved me over and over. Told me she can't live without me, said she wanted to die, told me she would rather die than hurt me, called me her rock, was VERY remorseful. A side I don't often see.

ColdEthyl. What you say is just so true. It has been my experience. Just your post alone has helped me so much. Thank you.

Help guys. This is part vent but I would appreciate advice, opinions , or input please.