Honest analysis of ourselves?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Do you all think it's even intrinsically possible to give an honest analysis of ourselves? Back when I first discovered these boards I was literally obsessed with finding all the negatives I may or may not have done in my ex-relationship. I found with the projection and blaming combined with the exaggerations laced with a bit of truth that it was kind of impossible. So I eventually got over it all by kind of shrugging my shoulders and saying "she's just nuts". I found it easier to get over it by actively "trying" to hate her because of the lies and manipulation at the end. Acceptance didn't even work all that well, which I think is supposed to be the last stage of grieving?

But anyway, I think it's pretty well known in psychology (not an expert) that it's highly difficult if not impossible to give honest evaluations of ourselves and our actions. So is the idea of "separating our stuff from their stuff" or analyzing our own faults even possible to begin with? If we listen to the borderline, it seems the negative evaluations of ourselves can swing to an unhealthy extreme even if we're trying to be honest with ourselves. As schwing can attest to with my constant whinings about what I thought I did wrong. 

This popped into my head because I'm currently working with a guy that almost CERTAINLY has obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. I (used to?) think that I have higher than average traits of obsessive-compulsive PD and narcicistic PD. I still treat others really well, so I don't possess the traits of these PDs that typically harm others. Despite this, I still have noticed strong traits.

Then I met this dude I worked with. I will put it this way -- there's almost no way he doesn't have OCPD or something really similar. And I've read about the disorder; it's very typical (perhaps even necessary for a diagnosis?) to expect others to sort of form to your idea/mold of perfectionism. And he's been training me -- fun stuff, . But, interacting with him makes it completely obvious I don't have OCPD anywhere near a clinical level, but because I saw some traits here and there I found this "flaw" in me. One thing that I never do is expect "others" to meet my perfectionist standards because I acknowledge myself that they are ridiculous sometimes. So yeah, I probably don't have OCPD at a clinical level.

So that led to my questions above. Can we even honestly analyze ourselves without it being distorted to some extent? Expecially those of you fresh out of BPD relationship, it seems like some care should be used when figuring out "your role" in everything as they can seriously screw with your head.

Thoughts?

[FloatOn]

Do you all think it's even intrinsically possible to give an honest analysis of ourselves? Back when I first discovered these boards I was literally obsessed with finding all the negatives I may or may not have done in my ex-relationship. I found with the projection and blaming combined with the exaggerations laced with a bit of truth that it was kind of impossible. So I eventually got over it all by kind of shrugging my shoulders and saying "she's just nuts". I found it easier to get over it by actively "trying" to hate her because of the lies and manipulation at the end. Acceptance didn't even work all that well, which I think is supposed to be the last stage of grieving?

But anyway, I think it's pretty well known in psychology (not an expert) that it's highly difficult if not impossible to give honest evaluations of ourselves and our actions. So is the idea of "separating our stuff from their stuff" or analyzing our own faults even possible to begin with? If we listen to the borderline, it seems the negative evaluations of ourselves can swing to an unhealthy extreme even if we're trying to be honest with ourselves. As schwing can attest to with my constant whinings about what I thought I did wrong. 

This popped into my head because I'm currently working with a guy that almost CERTAINLY has obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. I (used to?) think that I have higher than average traits of obsessive-compulsive PD and narcicistic PD. I still treat others really well, so I don't possess the traits of these PDs that typically harm others. Despite this, I still have noticed strong traits.

Then I met this dude I worked with. I will put it this way -- there's almost no way he doesn't have OCPD or something really similar. And I've read about the disorder; it's very typical (perhaps even necessary for a diagnosis?) to expect others to sort of form to your idea/mold of perfectionism. And he's been training me -- fun stuff, . But, interacting with him makes it completely obvious I don't have OCPD anywhere near a clinical level, but because I saw some traits here and there I found this "flaw" in me. One thing that I never do is expect "others" to meet my perfectionist standards because I acknowledge myself that they are ridiculous sometimes. So yeah, I probably don't have OCPD at a clinical level.

So that led to my questions above. Can we even honestly analyze ourselves without it being distorted to some extent? Expecially those of you fresh out of BPD relationship, it seems like some care should be used when figuring out "your role" in everything as they can seriously screw with your head.

Thoughts?

[averagemike]

At the end of the day, one thing I absolutely know, is that never have I ever done anyhing to deserve the mindf&*^ of abuse which I recieved. Period.

[schwing]

Do you all think it's even intrinsically possible to give an honest analysis of ourselves?

It is possible for an "honest" analysis of oneself.  But it doesn't make it easy.  And so long as mortals are not omniscient, our own self-awareness can only be limited.  And I am reminded of the ancient Greek aphorism "gnothi seauton" or "know thyself; thine own self thou must know."

But anyway, I think it's pretty well known in psychology (not an expert) that it's highly difficult if not impossible to give honest evaluations of ourselves and our actions. So is the idea of "separating our stuff from their stuff" or analyzing our own faults even possible to begin with?

It is difficult, but not impossible to lift the veil of self-denial.  Otherwise recovery of any sort would be "impossible."  Again, doesn't mean it's easy.  Doesn't hurt to get help, professional or otherwise.

This popped into my head because I'm currently working with a guy that almost CERTAINLY has obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. I (used to?) think that I have higher than average traits of obsessive-compulsive PD and narcicistic PD. I still treat others really well, so I don't possess the traits of these PDs that typically harm others. Despite this, I still have noticed strong traits.

Then I met this dude I worked with. I will put it this way -- there's almost no way he doesn't have OCPD or something really similar. And I've read about the disorder; it's very typical (perhaps even necessary for a diagnosis?) to expect others to sort of form to your idea/mold of perfectionism. And he's been training me -- fun stuff, . But, interacting with him makes it completely obvious I don't have OCPD anywhere near a clinical level, but because I saw some traits here and there I found this "flaw" in me. One thing that I never do is expect "others" to meet my perfectionist standards because I acknowledge myself that they are ridiculous sometimes. So yeah, I probably don't have OCPD at a clinical level.

It helps put your own issues in perspective when you see similar issues so intensely in someone else, doesn't it?  And as I see it, so what?  If you have OCPD or if your trainer has it, so what?  If this tendency helps you in your professional life, then it might be an advantage.  However it may prove to be a hindrance in interpersonal relationships.  If it is enough of an issue, then you might want to work on changing some behaviors?  It's your choice.

I figure most people don't care too much about their own issues until it really stands in the way of their own happiness.  And that might be a personal goal or interpersonal relationships, or whatever that becomes the "lightbulb" moment.  And then you decide what you want to do about it.  Your choice might be, I'm going to do nothing about it and just keep plugging away at it and hope to get lucky.  And you might get lucky.  Or you might find yourself in a situation that lights a bigger light bulb for you and then you go... .hmmmmm.

But I think it would be a sad conclusion if you think that just because it's so impossible to honestly analysis yourself, that it isn't even worth the effort.  Not that I think that's your conclusion, but just saying.

Best wishes, Schwing

[2010]

Looking back on the stages (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) - I can see exactly where you are right now- and it's Bargaining.

Bargaining usually comes right before you fall into the black hole of depression- and it's an attempt to stay on the surface with your anger. Anger is a really good thing when it keeps you away from denial (and going back for more abuse)- but too much of it doesn't solve anything from the past and it just cements a future that's bitter.

Moving beyond the anger, one comes to see in bargaining, that there are patterns in life. Self fulfilling ones- that need to be investigated. These aren't patterns of other people's behavior- they are patterns of your own.

Investigating them can lead you into an introspective, rock bottom despair about who we are- as self criticisms in the mind's thoughts are as damaging as the vocal criticisms of others. But at that bottom- you'll have the work of sorting out whose voices belong to whom- and what needs to be let go, discarded and what needs to be kept.

It's never easy to have the rest of the World going on outside of you while you've got yourself laid out on the tarp in pieces- trying hard to determine what you need to work properly to jump back into life. Some people become disappointed when no one else is there to help- but it's a job that can only be done in your own head.

Eventually what comes about is acceptance of yourself, limitations and all. And when you are aware of your own limitations, it doesn't hurt as much when other people point them out to you.

The World is a beautiful place- but it's carbon based. The second law of thermodynamics is entropy, the break down of systems. We are all becoming something new every day, whether we like it or not. In the words of Andy Partridge, "Life's like a firework, you're only lit once, so you must stand and radiate correctly." If your energy is being absorbed in a certain area- try to figure out why. That's the best that you can do for yourself and for others, but it must be done to live an authentic life.

[RedRightHand]

I don't know if honest appraisals are possible under these circumstances. I was dumped by my Ex BPD GF and thought there was something wrong with me. I had myself assessed multiple times and all the experts said no Axis 1, no Axis 2, no codependency. The end result was "bad luck" got me involved with the BPD.

[finally]

Looking back on the stages (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) - I can see exactly where you are right now- and it's Bargaining.

Bargaining usually comes right before you fall into the black hole of depression- and it's an attempt to stay on the surface with your anger. Anger is a really good thing when it keeps you away from denial (and going back for more abuse)- but too much of it doesn't solve anything from the past and it just cements a future that's bitter.

Moving beyond the anger, one comes to see in bargaining, that there are patterns in life. Self fulfilling ones- that need to be investigated. These aren't patterns of other people's behavior- they are patterns of your own.

Investigating them can lead you into an introspective, rock bottom despair about who we are- as self criticisms in the mind's thoughts are as damaging as the vocal criticisms of others. But at that bottom- you'll have the work of sorting out whose voices belong to whom- and what needs to be let go, discarded and what needs to be kept.

It's never easy to have the rest of the World going on outside of you while you've got yourself laid out on the tarp in pieces- trying hard to determine what you need to work properly to jump back into life. Some people become disappointed when no one else is there to help- but it's a job that can only be done in your own head.

Eventually what comes about is acceptance of yourself, limitations and all. And when you are aware of your own limitations, it doesn't hurt as much when other people point them out to you.

The World is a beautiful place- but it's carbon based. The second law of thermodynamics is entropy, the break down of systems. We are all becoming something new every day, whether we like it or not. In the words of Andy Partridge, "Life's like a firework, you're only lit once, so you must stand and radiate correctly." If your energy is being absorbed in a certain area- try to figure out why. That's the best that you can do for yourself and for others, but it must be done to live an authentic life.

thanks this helps... .your so right!

[mrgreensky]

I don't know if honest appraisals are possible under these circumstances. I was dumped by my Ex BPD GF and thought there was something wrong with me. I had myself assessed multiple times and all the experts said no Axis 1, no Axis 2, no codependency. The end result was "bad luck" got me involved with the BPD.

Red Right Hand,

You wrote this and I readily identify with it... .I want to know if my actions caused my relationship with my ex to finish or was it the BPD and the projection she returned to me? 

Can I ask what Axis 1, no Axis 2, no codependency are please?  I'm a brit and we, by and large, dont do therapy etc, etc (stiff upper lip and all that old chap!) so just want to know to self heal if you will... .

Finally,

I have wrestled with this continuously... .and I can see myself at the bargaining/depression stage.  I just couldn't articulate what I was feeling - so thank you

Cheers

MGS

[RedRightHand]

Axis 1 diagnosis are mental illnesses... .examples would be depression or schizophrenia.

Axis 2 diagnosis are personality disorders (and mental retardation)... .examples would be borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder.

codependency is not an official diagnosis in the DSM IV, but is a commonly accepted "personality type" that enables toxic people such as BPDs or alcoholics. They are rescuer types or fixers.

Many resources such as books or websites claim that BPDs only get involved with codependents or NPDs so I was questioning myself and had myself checked out by multiple professionals... .No axis1, no axis2 and no codependency. So what got me into that mess? Bad luck. I believe my actions did NOT cause the end of the relationship... .it was the BPD. I do not absolve myself of all responsibility as I still find myself 50% responsible for the mess... .I was trying to have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy female. Did I know in the beginning? Absolutely not. She had me 100% fooled by 100% hiding the illness from me. By the time I sensed something wasn't quite right, I was hooked and keeping my obligation. She also used fear and guilt to keep me hooked. I tried to do the right thing but it was a pretty quick downward slide until the end.

I also move through the stages of grief and it is natural to grieve a loss. I still struggle with some after effects of being in a toxic relationship with a BPD.

[turtlesoup]

Only up until very recently, and after the anger, I would dismiss the whole thing as "well, she's mental", I was doing that mostly because all this self analysis was becoming very boring and as 2010 says, the rest of the world was going on without me and no one was helping me. The complete ahiliation of my world was going on around me and this wasn't news to anyone and many people had already been where I stood.

As days pass I am getting to a stage whereby I know, and I do, analyse what it was about me that was so completely attracted to someone who, I have to be honest, I knew... .KNEW... .she wasn't really with it. But she made me feel (or so it seemed) whole in a way no one else ever could. The instant crazy chemistry we shared was so powerful, I was so completely magnetically drawn to her we were in a way two messed up people drawn toward one another, both our dysfunctions attracting in this cataclysm of lust and desire. However, it was only this chemistry, as ive said before... .i dont like her, her ideas or beliefs there was something almost primal about this attraction and i believe it was a negative energy. If that's true, then I have to look at what it is about me that stuck my head in the sand (and sure she is nuts! but im nuts for dating her) and just accept so much abuse.

This whole thing takes time and there is no short cut but trying to see your part in it while you are still angry was not possible for me at all.Far easier to default to "she's nuts"... .this may well be the case... .but I still went there and that's whats important for me to understand now. The pain this relationship caused me was so intense that I have no choice but to look. This isn't something that makes me sad though, i quite enjoy understanding myself better and addressing that hole inside myself that I need to fill for myself and not go after these relationships where this mad ass attraction pulls me.

[FloatOn]

Do you all think it's even intrinsically possible to give an honest analysis of ourselves?

It is possible for an "honest" analysis of oneself.  But it doesn't make it easy.  And so long as mortals are not omniscient, our own self-awareness can only be limited.  And I am reminded of the ancient Greek aphorism "gnothi seauton" or "know thyself; thine own self thou must know."

Thanks schwing. I was thinking more of the studies that ask a sample population to "rate themselves" in terms of abilities, characteristics, etc. I think virtually everyone is wildly off on these analyses. Like if they ask you to rate your intelligence relative to the population, I think average people tend to way overrate themselves, and I believe those at the very high end tend to underrate themselves (I could be off on the latter, but that's what I recall). That type of thing. So I was extrapolating that to the stuff we all here went through and thinking that perhaps it's futile to analyze ourselves in the aftermath. Taking me as an example, all my friends and my own ex's family was saying it was "all her" and I just took it as they were trying to make me feel better and I continued blaming myself. Probably for a lot of little stuff that is completely normal in a relationship that normal couples get through, but also for stuff that she pushed me towards with her behavior -- the stories I related to you.

So I was just throwing this out there as a warning that with all the swirling emotions involved that people on here are dealing with (and I dealt with for a very long time) you may not be able to honestly look at your own behaviors. My own perception of myself was vastly distorted from what I believed myself to be and what others thought I was. I only got that back fairly recently, and well after the breakup.

But to go along with what you said, perhaps those studies were kind of impromptu analyses... .i.e. the researchers just said "rate yourself" and they threw out an opinion. Perhaps with deeper thought we can give reasonable analyses to ourselves and our behavior.

It helps put your own issues in perspective when you see similar issues so intensely in someone else, doesn't it?  And as I see it, so what?  If you have OCPD or if your trainer has it, so what?  If this tendency helps you in your professional life, then it might be an advantage.  However it may prove to be a hindrance in interpersonal relationships.  If it is enough of an issue, then you might want to work on changing some behaviors?  It's your choice.

I don't think my OCPD traits effect my relationships all that much. At worst I think I may annoy people close to me every once in a blue moon when I obsess over something trivial, but my OCPD really only kicks in over big stuff and then it may even be beneficial. I would like to get some type of evaluation from a professional eventually though, because I remember when I was younger it really messed with me so I can't be sure I've completely dealt with it.

[FloatOn]

Looking back on the stages (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) - I can see exactly where you are right now- and it's Bargaining.

I hope not! I think I went through each stage like 20 times when I was trying to make sense of it all. Sometimes I wonder how the hell people who have never heard of BPD or found these boards deal with accepting things as they are.

Bargaining usually comes right before you fall into the black hole of depression- and it's an attempt to stay on the surface with your anger. Anger is a really good thing when it keeps you away from denial (and going back for more abuse)- but too much of it doesn't solve anything from the past and it just cements a future that's bitter.

Well, here's my current take on it. I think if you really get screwed over from someone with BPD that perhaps the healthiest or correct road is a combination of "acceptance" with "anger". At least that's how I concluded the process of grieving, rationalizing, whatever. It's completely normal to be angry at someone if you do everything you can for them, are with them for years, and they basically spit on you at the end. Even say years down the road, with the emotional attachment severed, I think healthy people perhaps look back at how they were treated and realize that person was a piece of crap if they aren't trying to sugarcoat things. Sure you can accept mental illness as well and realize they probably can't help it, but that doesn't change the behavior. Look at serial killers who are psychotic -- you may realize they "can't help it" but that doesn't change the fact that by pretty much any reasonable definition they aren't the greatest of people. And I'm sure families of people effected by actions of psychopaths probably always have a hint of contempt and anger towards those people even when they accept the situation for what it is. Like those effected by BPD, perhaps to really keep them away we have to realize they just aren't good people (barring treatment).

I made a thread way back when stating that realizing she was mentally ill made it HARDER for me to let go completely. Because I sympathized with her, saw how fantastic she was with me for the most part when she was on her meds and not dysregulated, so there was that hope that she could find it in herself to get better. It wasn't until I acknowledged that she hated me for no rational reason whatsoever and that mentally ill or not, she treated me like garbage, where I let the anger seep in. I actually pushed away the anger for the longest time. For whatever reason, the only time I could say "eff her, I want nothing to do with her" was when I was angry with how I was treated. I don't FEEL angry anymore, but my opinion of her just isn't very high and that's what for the most part allowed me to stop thinking about the trivial stuff that didn't even matter anymore.

[TheHost]

I was no angel in the relationship and had my share of issues, but the stuff he did, that was just unbearable.

[othello]

Interesting thread.

For me, I am at this point... .

They did things to us - as a result of how they have learnt to be, as a result of their illness... .   its what they know to do... .  its not evil, its just them.

We do things back to them - sometimes to defend ourselves, sometimes to retaliate against their attacks etc. To them, I am sure they would see us as unbearable too.

In the end, there were things about me which made me attracted to them, there were things about them which made it so amazing that I didnt take heed of the warning signs, until I had let myself get pulled into things, then I had as much part in perpetuating it as she did. 

I sympathise completely with your post FloatOn... I am there too... .  I know how you are feeling. And I understand what everyone else has expressed.

I think it is about moving forward, knowing ourselves better, and seeing things for the first time as what it was - plain and simple. We were in love with someone who was sick with an illness, a disability, whatever, that made them see the world in a different way to how we see it.

[nonbpdnyc]

At the end of the day, one thing I absolutely know, is that never have I ever done anyhing to deserve the mindf&*^ of abuse which I recieved. Period.

averagemike, your quote should be made a sticky post. Thanks for that, couldn't have put it better myself... .

[finally]

Interesting thread.

For me, I am at this point... .

They did things to us - as a result of how they have learnt to be, as a result of their illness... .   its what they know to do... .  its not evil, its just them.

We do things back to them - sometimes to defend ourselves, sometimes to retaliate against their attacks etc. To them, I am sure they would see us as unbearable too.

In the end, there were things about me which made me attracted to them, there were things about them which made it so amazing that I didnt take heed of the warning signs, until I had let myself get pulled into things, then I had as much part in perpetuating it as she did. 

I sympathise completely with your post FloatOn... I am there too... .  I know how you are feeling. And I understand what everyone else has expressed.

I think it is about moving forward, knowing ourselves better, and seeing things for the first time as what it was - plain and simple. We were in love with someone who was sick with an illness, a disability, whatever, that made them see the world in a different way to how we see it.

Beautifuly said! 

[EscapeArtist]

For me the "they are sick/broken people" thing is what makes it harder for me too because my Superman complex starts doing caerwheels in my mind.

But at the end of the day, its the scorpion and the frog, and that's that.  I'm not going to get stung and sink anymore.

[turtle]

The hardest part of all of the self analysis for me was what I thought I had become when the whole thing was over.  I remember looking in the mirror and thinking "I have no clue who you are anymore!"

Crazyx lied with great ease -- yet he was CONSTANTLY accusing me of lying -- and lying about the most ridiculous things.  However, in the end, I was lying too. And I did it because the cost of telling the truth was just too great.  Lying kept the peace.  Telling the truth envoked more chaos, raging and physical abuse. So... .I became a liar.

I never thought I could physically harm another person -- and in the end, I had to harm him because HE was harming me.  If I hadn't fought back, I might not be alive today.  The images of my escape from him (and what I had to do to make that happen) are still with me (although much hazier now.)  So... .in my mind (even though it was self defense,) I became "violent."  

Once during one of his oh so frequent and scary rages, I remember thinking "what is that horrible noise?  It sounds like a caged animal!"  Then I realized... .it was ME and I was, for the first (and not last) time raging back.  I had become a rager!

Crazyx was a horrific drunk, yet constantly accused ME of being a drunk.  When all was said and done, I wasn't an alcoholic, but I was probably well on my way.  I numbed the pain of dealing with him and all of his bs with booze. And I did it on almost a daily basis. So... .I became someone with a drinking problem.

Crazyx was someone who was extremely paranoid.  Convinced people were out to get him.  After being physically harmed by him so many times, and dealing with the YEARS of stalking, I too, became paranoid, and mistrustful of others.

The list goes on... . 

Suffice it to say, when all was said and done, I didn't like who I had become.  I never imagined I was capable of some of these things, yet there they were - - in ME!

It would be very easy for me to have blamed him for these things, and for a long time... .I did.  I don't blame him anymore.  He is a miserable creature who will NEVER be comfortable in his own skin - and that is HIS problem, not mine...  And THAT is him, NOT me. For awhile, after he finally left, that WAS me, but not anymore.  I like me. I like who I am and these experiences do NOT define me - they happened to me, but they are not who I am. I did many things wrong in trying to deal with him - some out of ignorance and some because I was just sick of his crap.  But... .I also did a lot of things right.

At the end of the day, the biggest mistake I made was to stay with him after that VERY FIRST RAGE.  I love the saying: "When someone shows you their true colors, believe them the FIRST time."  Not believing his true colors was MY fault and mine alone.  And I have paid dearly for that.  Even so... .that is not my life anymore (thank God) and I have moved on.

There are other people in my life that are wonderful and there have been some not so wonderful ones too.  My goal, in moving forward, is to know the difference and then act accordingly.  If someone behaves so horribly, I believe that the first time and even if I don't want to, or don't feel like it... .I make the choices necessary to remove myself from their poison.  

Turtle

 

[lifeistough75]

I felt this is a very important thread and wanted to bump it up. I totally agree with what Othello, and finally have written. That was definitely my case. Some partners tolerate what happens to them, but I retaliated, and was not going to take it sitting down, and that made for a very intense, highly unstable, and extremely steep roller coaster rides.

But in my opinion, the importance of this thread is that we must take responsibility for our roles in these relationships. Many of us have our own deep seeded issues, and many were pulled in for some reason or another. The sooner we realize why we over looked so many things, why we attached when we knew something was just not right, the sooner we will get over emptiness, and confusion.