Opinion wanted please...

[Finallyfree123]

When I took my uBPDexbf back for the 3rd time he was willing to do whatever it took. He knew my biggest condition for us to be back together was for him to see a therapist to work out the 46 years of abuse he endured, first as a child and then in his 19 year marriage. At the time I thought he may have BPD but didn't know what I know now. (Thanks to bpdfamily)

I went with him on his first appt. and the Dr. said she would see him 1x then me 1x then us as a couple. He started seeing her and she let him know that she needed to see him on an individual basis a lot longer than she initially thought. I saw that coming. But for our relationship time was of the essence, so I called her to see if she could see him and I once in a while to give us some tools so we could hold on until she could see us on a regular basis. We played phone tag for a week. It was during that week when my ex was at his absolute worst, the anger, the splitting and the transferring and projecting were out of control and of course he ended it again.

The next day the Dr.reached me. I told her I first called to get an appt. but things had changed and I couldn't take the abuse anymore.

Basically this is what she said to me: She told me flat out to cut my losses and that some people are only capable of managing superficial work relationships and nothing more. She told me to move on and find a T that would help me get through it... .

Her words struck a cord. She hardly knew me and she was HIS Dr. !

When I have doubts about things I think about what she said and snap back into reality.  Her credentials show she works with people with BPD and does dbt. I wonder if she saw this?

I can't help but think she was protecting me because of what she saw in him.

I thought about sending her a thank you e-mail to let her know her brief conversation with me made a difference in my life and in my decision to go NC and thus may have saved me from being recycled again and from enduring anymore abuse.

What are your opinions on me sending the e-mail?

[re-covering]

Thank you for posting this.  It just made me realize how lucky I am.

[GlennT]

imo T's who flat out tell you like it is are worth more than their weight in gold. I would certainly send the email and keep her on board in your life.

[harlemgurl]

Brandrew.

I would definitely say send that email.

There's nothing wrong with extending gratitude. For the Dr. to warn you/give you a heads up is quite telling from only meeting with your ex once. When I came here on my hands and knees drowning in tears I had no idea what BPD was and when I learned how grave this disorder was I was even more devastated. Be thankful that a professional cared enough to tell you the TRUTH about cutting your losses. I always knew that something was "off" about my BPDexbf; but I was quite ignorant about personality disorders let alone BPD.


HG

[2010]

What are your opinions on me sending the e-mail?

No, it only keeps the door open for triangulation (read definition). I wouldn't think it's necessary to send one to confirm what you already know. With no contact, everyone takes responsibility for their own actions. That way there is no longer a triangle. Your privacy is guaranteed, your partner's privacy is guaranteed and the privacy of his therapy is guaranteed.  You do not owe the therapist an acknowledgement of her agreement with you.  Asking her for one is just keeping the communication open *about him* and not insisting on firm boundaries that might allow for your emotional strings to be further pulled.

to see a therapist to work out the 46 years of abuse he endured, first as a child and then in his 19 year marriage. But for our relationship time was of the essence... .

If you acknowledge that your ex-partner is Borderline, the time constraints on overcoming his distorted perceptions will only cause more distorted perceptions.  The idea that he has been abused, first in childhood and then in a 19 year marriage, will only transfer on to you as the current abuser.  You may think otherwise as his rescuer, but if you do not let go of the outcome on this and live your own life, you risk that your care and concern turns into a helicoptering and ing control- which makes you look exactly like the persecutor that lives within his psyche.

He's in good hands. Any note you send to the therapist only looks like a violation of boundaries concerning his privacy and therapy.  If she has worked with BPD and DBT, she will probably ask that you step away as written in "surviving a break-up" #9

9) Belief that you need to stay to help them.

You might want to stay to help your partner. Possibly to disclose to them that they have borderline personality disorder and help them get into therapy. Maybe you want to help in other ways while still maintaining a “friendship”.

The fact is, you are no longer in a position to be the caretaker and support person for your BPD partner - no matter how well intentioned.

Understand that you have become the trigger for your BPD partner's bad feelings and bad behavior. Sure, you do not deliberately cause these feelings, but your presence is now triggering them. This is a complex defense mechanism that is often seen with borderline personality disorder when a relationship sours. It's roots emanate from the deep central wounds of the disorder. You can't begin to answer to this.

You also need to question your own motives and your expectations for wanting to help. Is this kindness or a type “well intentioned” manipulation on your part - an attempt to change them to better serve the relationship as opposed to addressing the lifelong wounds from which they suffer?

More importantly, what does this suggest about your own survival instincts - you're injured, in ways you may not fully even grasp, and it's important to attend to your own wounds before you are capable of helping anyone else.

You are damaged. Right now, your primary responsibility really needs to be to yourself - your own emotional survival.

If they try to lean on you, it's a greater kindness that you step away. Difficult, no doubt, but more responsible.

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm

Good luck!

[diotima]

You lucked out--as bad as it feels. It would feel WAY worse if you stayed!

Diotima

[diotima]

Interesting question raised about triangulation (read definition) and I do not have the answer. I would like to pursue further the reasons why a "thank you" is not appropriate. I can see that not sending anything is fine because the T is going to know that brandrew has exited whether or not a message is sent and T may or may not know whether what she said facilitated that, although probably she would (?). Even so, if someone does something like that it seems perfectly human to express gratitude. And I wonder whether those who help us feel something from us when he let them know. I am puzzled and don't know yet which side of the fence I come down on. Part of it is the T's side of things and part of it is Brandrew's reasons.

Comments?

Diotima

[whatarideout]

He's in good hands. Any note you send to the therapist only looks like a violation of boundaries concerning his privacy and therapy.  If she has worked with BPD and DBT, she will probably ask that you step away as written in "surviving a break-up" #9

i disagree. a simple "thank you" will bring her no harm. this in no way appears to be a violation of boundaries.

she is merely addressing her gratitude.

[MaybeSo]

The T can receive unsolicited emails, letters, and communications from a third pArty and it doesn't have to be a problem. A therapist can passivly receive information from anyone... In the sense that they can't fully control such a thing,.they just cant solicit it and can never share any info back unless they have written consent by the client to do so. The therapist will likely not ackowledge the note, but im sure would be glad to know her opinion was helpful. If the note divulged info about her client technically she should share it with her client to remain ethical and to not triangulate. If the info is not 'about' the client, I don't think she has any ethical reason to discuss it or share it with the client. A short 'thank you for your candid opinion' is not about her client, it's a thank you from the author for professional advice that was helpful. I don't see an ethical delima or triangulation (read definition). I suppose the need to Send a thank you note could mask a desire to remain connected to the relationship in some way, but a thank you note won't in itself harm anything as long as it doesn't go any further.  It is certainly not required that we send a thank you note to our T, especially to one that continues to work with an ex... .but I think if it is short and to the point and does not drag in a bunch of stuff about her client, then its probably fine.

[2010]

I would like to pursue further the reasons why a "thank you" is not appropriate.

A thank you is not necessary. Brandrew is not a victim and the therapist is not a rescuer. There isn't any need to place the therapist in a one-up position. Sending a thank you note further involves both Brandrew and the therapist, distracting from the third person who *is* the actual client. This thank you may appear to be between two people but it's about three- and that's where the communication gets blurred.  It's a note about a third person- not a thank you between two.  The message sent from the therapist needs no response.

Therapists have to deal with this all the time and it is a distraction. <<The third party is a distraction.>> The message can also become polarized if the client hears about it and it may make therapy more difficult, keying right into the disorder.

Imagine if you were in therapy and you found out your former partner was sending the therapist a thank you card after the therapist told him/her to "flat out to cut losses... .move on and find a T that would help you get through it. " Would you be emotionally hurt about that? Would you think the therapist sided with your ex-partner and thought that you were defective? Would you think that maybe you were being victimized by both parties, the therapist and the ex?  How will you change your beliefs about triangulation (read definition)? If BPD is a disorder about not taking responsibility for the SELF, then how does it feel to have two people talking about you behind your back when you are an ADULT and trying to change your distorted belief system?

All of these possibilities of sidetracking therapy are exactly what the therapist doesn't want. What the therapist wants is to stabilize the persecution complex of BPD and uncover the primary causes from childhood. Dealing with the modern day re-interpretation really distracts the therapy of a Borderline taking responsibility for oneself.  Firm boundaries must be in place. Privacy must be in place. All parties involved need to let go of the outcome and of being seen as a rescuer. All parties involved need to let go of the outcome and of being seen as a victim and all parties involved need to let go of being seen as the persecutor. Let go of the outcome. Let go. Let it happen. Let it happen without doing anything. Let it go. It is the first step to positive change. It is within everyone's ability to change if people let go of how they are seen in triangulation (read definition).

If a thank you is needed, it should warrant a reason. The only reason a thank you should be sent to *someone elses* therapist is *after* Brandrew finds *her own therapist* and is able to detach from the outcome of the ex-partner's therapy and live her own life without being involved in his.  

[diotima]

OK, having read the responses so far, my take on it (still on the fence mind you!) is that the T is presumably an adult, especially after what she said to Brandrew. That said: Brandrew *might* be wanting something more than thank you (we would need this info). But even so: the T (presumably) is not going to say anything about it, is aware of all these complexities, and we are all human--and the T was trying to help everyone disengage. Only B knows the answer to whether there is some commitment to the outcome (again we are all human). Maybe this is being made into a bigger thing than it is? I dunno. But the T would figure out what was going on and I think would graciously accept the thank you and move on. I guess I am on that side of the fence. These things are so delicate. I think in the long run it doesn't matter whether Brandrew sends a thank you or not. It sounds like the T knows what she is doing, bless her heart.

Diotima

[ItsAboutTime]

This thank you may appear to be between two people but it's about three- and that's where the communication gets blurred.  It's a note about a third person- not a thank you between two.  The message sent from the therapist needs no response.

I agree with '2010'. There's no need to be treading around 'delicacies'. Just be grateful, forget about him and move on.

[beyondbelief]

This T knows far better than to ever divulge telling you to run nor is she likely to ever mention receiving an email.   So there would be no triangulation (read definition).

I would send a simple one liner.

"Thank you for your help".

Help could mean anything so you would not be admitting anything.

[whatarideout]

Therapists have to deal with this all the time and it is a distraction. <<The third party is a distraction.>> The message can also become polarized if the client hears about it and it may make therapy more difficult, keying right into the disorder.

if therapists don't want a "distraction", then they shouldn't reach out to "the third party"  and advise them to "cut their losses and that some people are only capable of managing superficial working relationships."

the therapist has 100% ownership if therapy were to "sidetrack". she went behind the "actual clients" back and advised the person he is in a relationship with to break it off.

i don't see firm boundaries in place when that happens

[MindfulJavaJoe]

I cannot say whether what your therapist said in connection with your relationship was good advice or not.

I have two Therapist who met with my wife before we separated. I have continued to see them and my wife is out of therapy. It has been a help to me for them to have met my wife through couples therapy as I do no have to do any explaining. They have see her both good and bad first hand.

Both have said since to me that it was inevitable that my marriage was going to break down. My uBPDw is not in therapy and they would not now see her as a client (conflict of interest)

In the time that I have spent here I realise that I might have been able to change enough to hold things together a little longer. I did not even learn about BPD until afterwards.

Would thing have been different if I had used the communication tools here? I will now never know.

Trust and respect have gone. I feel huge sympathy for her and her ongoing struggle. I now see how unhealthy our relationship was for me. I am still coming to terms with how I allowed this to happen, what happened to my self respect and my boundaries.

A relationship is not necessarily doomed if one partner has BPD. There are many members on the staying board who find ways to make their relationship work and in many cases these pwBPD are undiagnosed and not in therapy.

You may fine the following helpful:

US: "Relationship Recycling" - What is it?

Leaving and grieving/Being "friends" after a break-up

US: Contact with our BPD after the breakup

Workshop - TOOLS: No Contact - Ending a BPD realtionship

I have asked myself why did I chose so badly ( clearly I have a lot to learn about myself!):

to be taken with a pinch of salt... .

"Red Flags"/How to choose emotionally healthier partners

[MaybeSo]

Therapists have to deal with this all the time and it is a distraction. <<The third party is a distraction.>> The message can also become polarized if the client hears about it and it may make therapy more difficult, keying right into the disorder.

The T is not a victim here,  either.  

In deed, it's the T's responsibility as the professional who is trained in ethics to consider and navigate all of these concerns including how to handle dual relationships, how to best move from couples therapy to 1-1 w/ one remaining member of a couple, what to share and what not to share with partner's,   as well as the risk involved in giving direct advise to the exiting partner of a client you plan to continue to work with, etc.  

It is not the client's job, nor the average consumer's area of expertise, to consider all these ethical issues of triangulation (read definition) and to guide their behavior in a way that protects the professional; rather, that is the therapist's job, to keep her client(s) safe.  

This professional apparently, for some reason gave this poster a very direct opinion re: staying or cutting her losses in this relationship.  The minute she did that... .she opened herself up, as the therapist... .to the possibility that that opinion might be shared with her client in some way, and it of course could ruin her therapuetic alliance with her client if he hears that she proferred that opinon.  Who knows, in this case, maybe the T actually discussed her opinion WITH her remaining client before giving this advice to BB. He may already know the T's opinon about this.   We don't know all the ins and outs.  

Bottom line, all of this is really on the therapist, not the client(s)... .it's the professionals job to determine what to say, who to say it to, and how to keep her relationships 'clean' and untriangulated.  This is not the client's job, it's the professional's job... .and it's her area of expertise, not the consumer's.

I will assume in this case, this therapist knew what she was doing and felt she could profer her opinion and still maintain a therapuetic relationship with her client.  

If she misjudged the situation,  and this goes bad in some way that negatively affects the therapuetic alliance with her client,  the responsibility for that lies with the therapist... .not with her cleint(s).

[OTH]

I think the message 2010 is trying to give brandrew is a good one (irregardless of the therapist situation). 2010 is trying to show brandrew a healthier mindset. Rather than I would have been stuck as a victim with my BPD if this therapist didn't rescue me... .2010 suggests a different outlook. The therapist is right! This man is sick. I don't need him in my life. I need to detach and move on because I am in charge of my own life. I am strong enough to do the right thing on my own. I will leave, heal my wounds, and move on. I will put this sad chapter of my life behind me and start today! Can you give a quick thanks and start thinking this way anyways... .I don't know. I see what 2010 is getting at. It shows brandrew is still emotionally involved in the relationship. Leave the sick man to his therapist and silently wish him the best as you  point your ship in a new direction! 

[Finallyfree123]

I can say that the conversation I had with his T will never get back to him. She is an upstanding physician with impressive credentials and experience. She is a professional.

I did have some contact with my uBPDexbf after I spoke with her and I never uttered a word and never will. I feel strongly like the Dr. in that it was a private, protected conversation. I have been 3 weeks NC since I last spoke with him by my doing of blocking him from being able to contact me.

Really all I wanted to do was thank her. It's funny, normally I wouldn't think twice about thanking someone for anything. I am the type who reports great service not just the bad. But this whole BPD experience changes who we are and I find myself second guessing my actions. Even if I would not in any other situation.

[MaybeSo]

I think all of this thread brought up good points and things to consider... .including the issue of triangulation (read definition) and examining our own possible motives, etc.,  It's all good stuff.  

And, sometimes a 'thank you' really is just a 'thank you'... .sometimes a cigar really is... .just a cigar.  

 

[ItsAboutTime]

I think all of this thread brought up good points and things to consider... .including the issue of triangulation (read definition) and examining our own possible motives, etc.,  It's all good stuff.  

And, sometimes a 'thank you' really is just a 'thank you'... .sometimes a cigar really is... .just a cigar.  

 

That's what Bill Clinton told Monica too. (blush)

[2010]

And, sometimes a 'thank you' really is just a 'thank you'... .

Certainly, but we aren’t dealing with etiquette here. We are dealing with attachment and control.

BPD is about persecution and allowing others to control.  Borderline is an attachment disorder because of their failure to separate and individuate as an adult, so they seek out people who control them with insecure, shallow attachment. The attachment is shallow because both people have one foot out of the door, yet return over and over again to seek control due to their childhood schemas.

In Brandrew's case the therapist has placed a firm boundary; that she detach.   That way the Borderline can now attach to the therapist. The therapist’s job is to act as the early reenactment of the primary object (the parent figure) for the Borderline.

Since detachment is very difficult (especially for most partners, who feel responsible for the success of the Borderlines therapy,) the breaking of no contact is likely to occur and therapy privacy blurred.  That may also be due to the Borderlines sense of valuation as an object and the partner’s withdrawal.  At that time, the Borderline may reward the withdrawing object (partner) with tales of therapy in order to keep them around.  (This may or may not be known to the therapist in sessions as Borderlines are very secretive in their movements toward or away from people.)

During those times, the truth will be stretched (distorted perceptions) and the anger and emotions will arise and the Borderline will use triangulation (read definition) of the therapist in discussions with the partner.  At those times, a partner may have had enough and confront the Borderline with the therapist’s initial boundary, even if it is said in anger:

*I spoke to your therapist and she told me to run so I wrote her a thank you note *

You can see where this is headed.  

(Since Borderline is a persecution complex, the less interaction you have with the therapist, the better the outcome for the therapy and the less possibility for misunderstanding and triangulation (read definition).)  

[SOOOdone]

I am a therapist.

I can receive a thank you note. I may even reply with acknowledgment that I got it WITHOUT blowing confidentiality.

It is up to the THERAPIST to worry about confidentiality and all that and set the boundaries and make them clear. A layperson has no legal obligation in this case and free speech is a right.

So you can write a thank you note and I am sure it will be appreciated and may make you feel better too. My 2 cents.

[Love153040]

Really all I wanted to do was thank her.

I personally believe that all you want to do is express your gratitude.  I do not think that this therapist or any other therapist would be offended in any way by a short and business-like thank you note.

Then you went on to say... .

It's funny, normally I wouldn't think twice about thanking someone for anything. I am the type who reports great service not just the bad.

My grandmother had a saying that I often refer to when I am feeling uncertain about doing something... ."if you aren't sure if you should do something, then you probably shouldn't."

That being said, while I was posting this someone who IS a therapist posted that that he/she would appreciate knowing they had helped someone. I now really think this could go either way.

[2010]

I am a therapist. I can receive a thank you note.

This is not in dispute.

I may even reply with acknowledgment that I got it WITHOUT blowing confidentiality.

This is in dispute. Confidentiality may not be guaranteed by *the other party.*

It is up to the THERAPIST to worry about confidentiality and all that and set the boundaries and make them clear.

This is correct. It appears as though this therapist has stated a firm boundary. She/he has suggested that an additional therapist should be retained so as not to blur boundaries. The boundary needs no further testing or interaction.

A layperson has no legal obligation in this case and free speech is a right.

This is not in dispute.

So you can write a thank you note and I am sure it will be appreciated and may make you feel better too. My 2 cents.

Feelings and emotions concerning rescuing are a part of a complex process that fulfills needs. These needs are schemas that have to be addressed in a therapeutic environment for people to feel better, not with thank you notes, whether giving or receiving.  As I stated before, the best thank you note is one that is sent *after* individual therapy gives some insight as to the driving force of the interaction (otherwise known as a relationship.) The feelings behind sending a note and feeling better about it are temporary solutions to a difficult schema of control. In the overall scheme of things- sending a note may appear to be benign, but it is suggestive of an alliance, which betrays the therapeutic process with a Borderline adult.

[SOOOdone]

Sigh.

You can't protect the BPD from the world either.

There was a relationship between the person wishing to send a note and the therapist. What about the conversation the therapist had telling her to leave? Should she have not done that? Didn't take break the presumed alliance with the BPD? She doesn't have to answer the note.

the question is if she should send a thank you note and it's a free country and yes she is legally allowed to. Ethically she is also not held to the same fire as a therapist. If they had never had couple's counseling before it would be a different story.

2011 your points are valid and difficult to ignore, but the therapist put themselves in a tough situation to begin with. This is precisely why I never do couples AND individual with the same people. If I see a couple I don't see them individually. If I see an individual I don't have couples therapy.

[OTH]

Once again we are talking about the therapist and not brandrew. This is her thread. The T isn't important except to her BPD. What is healthiest for brandrew? It is clearly to detach and move on. How best to develop this mindset? Step out of the victim role.

[SOOOdone]

I agree