Update, Another Change

[Turkish]

It's been two nights since The Conversation, where her boyfriend (whom she says is not a boyfriend, or rather "I don't know what I have with him!" called her phone sitting next to me and I caught it.

No more journal entries, though she hasn't hid it. I came home last night in time to put my S3 to sleep. I could tell she was frustrated, and lashed out about me never matching his pajama tops and bottoms, because he was complaining about wanting them matching. He hardly ever does this with me, or I just shut it down firmly, but nicely. I take him in to sing to him and say his prayers.

She gets on the phone in the spare room with the door closed, talking and soon laughing. Probably with the dude. She came out later in a very good mood. Asked me for a favor all nice about taking the kids the next day since she wanted to go running in the morning. I said no problem. Then she said, it's not a problem if I do it! (equivocation... .I always was bugged by this). She said she was being careful with the kids because she had a cold sore. I scoffed and said, "herpes!" She said she knew I'd say that (to myself: then why did you mention it?). I said not the STD, but from kissing. She said she isn't "doing that" with him. I said what about the text message I saw back in August? She said back then, yes. That women sometimes get them during their times of the month. I said it's a virus and likely took that long to germinate. But whatever. She was still in such a good mood from her conversation that it wasn't really a fight or even an argument. I almost wish it were, because the exchange just felt weird to me. Two different people in the space of an hour. But I guess I am used to it.

I then thought that she is getting what she needs from him which I shut down slowly over the past year. I know that cheating, while sometimes triggered by the other partner's behavior, ultimately has nothing to do with the "victim." But I can't help but blame myself, still, for not focusing on her more, "watering the garden" as my T put it. I know I am guilty of that, but we know how BPDs need FAR more reinforcement in that regard due to their abandonment fears. In a healthy relationship with an ordered person, I probably wouldn't have withdrawn at all. I don't know. What was I thinking that this would turn out any other way? But then I think that we have two small children, and it is wrong to go out every week dancing or whatever, pawning them off on her mom, when her mom watches them anyway while we are at work. It's just not right and not mature. Maybe I just couldn't handle all of the responsibility: physical and financial for all four of us, my mom sometimes, and also her family by proxy (the both of us together), ME and HER. Perhaps, she's right in that I lacked character, and "in that, you failed."

And I think that she justifies it in her mind due to her thoughts of: "a woman is much more hurt by emotional cheating; whereas, a man is much more hurt by physical cheating." She has completely and utterly reversed this (still pretty sure they haven't slept together, but irrelevant... .they will after she leaves anyway, and it's still massive betrayal). Besides?: I am not a stereotype out of Cosmo; I am a whole person. Maybe it's that due to my intrinsic qualities, I am more feminine on the inside when it comes to my emotions, due to being raised by a single mother who never hung around men, but rather other single mothers, a lot with just girls to hang out with. That is despite me large, bench pressing near 300lbs, being weapon and somewhat hand to hand combat trained; other "manly" activities I do on the outside. I always thought that she was the "man" more: petite and pretty, but aggressive in attitude. Like she has an extra testosterone organ which gets triggered to release the hormone at the slightest emotional jolt.

I think my point is that I really don't know what is reality anymore. I don't want to spend the holiday with her and her family, and will probably get a lot of pressure to do so. She will probably say, "what are you going to do, sit around at home and drink?" No. I'll find something else... .I don't care if I'm alone. The kids have to start getting used to it.

Thanks. I just had to get that out.

Broken Turkish

[Ironmanrises]

Turkish,

The fact that you have to be around her still, is what is causing you to not know what reality is anymore. And that is totally understandable given the situation. Obviously, you really do not have a choice at the moment as you have kids with her. I feel for you man. I think once she gets out of your house and some physical distance between you and her(as much as there can be given that you have children with her) will start to thin out that fog that you are in. Towards the end of round 2, as I physically saw my exUBPDgf turn to the other side, I didn't know what reality was anymore either. I do not know how else to describe it. Hang in there friend.

[Waifed]

Ironfalls is right.  You are still deeply entrenched in the fog and it will not improve until she is removed from the house.  You have to get her out.  Every day she is there is another day that you are being damaged a little deeper.  You will feel instant relief once she leaves until everything hits you.  You will then begin the grieving process.  Once out of the fog you will realize that you gave it your all and she provided very little in the relationship.  It is a very unhealthy situation with her in the house with you.  You have got to get her gone!  I know your children are your world but what are they without you?  You have to take care of yourself starting right now.  They need you now and forever.  Work on yourself so that you can continue to be the great father that you obviously are.  You sound like a very kind man.  It is something that almost all woman desire in a  man.  Unfortunately, it is also something that kept you in a toxic relationship so long.  You have so very much to give to your children and a nice deserving woman somewhere down the road.  YOU HAVE TO START PUTTING YOURSELF FIRST.  SHE IS STILL EMOTIONALLY ABUSING YOU.  GET HER OUT NOW!  SHE SURVIVED BEFORE YOU MET HER AND SHE WILL CONTINUE TO SURVIVE WITHOUT YOU.  SHE IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ANYMORE EVEN THOUGH YOU SHARE CHILDREN.  I would guess that she will be willing to give up the majority of the time with the children once she moves out.  :)ocument all of it and eventually you can legally have the majority of the time with your children.

I feel for you and from an outsider looking in it is obvious that she is still tearing you apart piece by piece.  You have to get her out now.

[Turkish]

First, thanks Iron Man, you are a gem. Hang in there, too, my friend.

Ironfalls is right.  You are still deeply entrenched in the fog and it will not improve until she is removed from the house.  You have to get her out.  Every day she is there is another day that you are being damaged a little deeper.  You will feel instant relief once she leaves until everything hits you.  You will then begin the grieving process.  Once out of the fog you will realize that you gave it your all and she provided very little in the relationship.  It is a very unhealthy situation with her in the house with you.  You have got to get her gone!  I know your children are your world but what are they without you?  You have to take care of yourself starting right now.  They need you now and forever.  Work on yourself so that you can continue to be the great father that you obviously are.  You sound like a very kind man.  It is something that almost all woman desire in a  man.  Unfortunately, it is also something that kept you in a toxic relationship so long.  You have so very much to give to your children and a nice deserving woman somewhere down the road.  YOU HAVE TO START PUTTING YOURSELF FIRST.  SHE IS STILL EMOTIONALLY ABUSING YOU.  

I told her this the other night. Multiple times. And "him," too.

GET HER OUT NOW!  SHE SURVIVED BEFORE YOU MET HER AND SHE WILL CONTINUE TO SURVIVE WITHOUT YOU.  SHE IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ANYMORE EVEN THOUGH YOU SHARE CHILDREN.  I would guess that she will be willing to give up the majority of the time with the children once she moves out.  :)ocument all of it and eventually you can legally have the majority of the time with your children.

I feel for you and from an outsider looking in it is obvious that she is still tearing you apart piece by piece.  You have to get her out now.

Thanks, Waifed. I am documenting everything now, and will keep spreadsheets on the custody, down to the hour that I have with them. I will also keep my daily journal. She will survive... .alternating between Hermit and dysfunctional relationships which she ultimately destroys. I just am pissed and jealous... .not of them with her, but that she might be stupid enough to bring such guys into our kids' lives. But this is not uncommon... .I realize. D1 will do ok, S3 won't since he has the first child syndrome as well as being emotional like his mother. Where is the freaking end? I need to read up on the FOG, I guess... .

[Waifed]

You are not at the beginning yet.  The end is further away every day that she is still in your home.  I would consider speaking with your attorney about making it mandatory that she is not allowed to have another male in her house / or overnight while the kids are with her unless they have been dating for "x" number of months.  You have ALL of the power right now even though it doesn't feel that way.  Use it to your advantage to make this happen. You can make the offer go both ways since I am sure that you wouldn't do this anyway.  Their are some websites about the "FOG".  You will know when you begin to come out of it.  You will think much more clearly and wonder why and how you could have put up with the abuse that you did.  

Turkish, also keep in mind that her seeing some young guy is not a reflection on you.  She is a mentally ill person.  The cheating has been the hardest thing for me to overcome.  It is an ego crusher.  I know now that my ex was going to shack up with other guys no matter what I did.  I still struggle with it in phases.  I get so pissed at the betrayal.  She is the looser in all of this though as is your wife.  Unfortunately, even if they know it they don't have the mental capacity to make it better.  You will be happy and full of self esteem again.  The process to get there will begin the day she is gone.

[Turkish]

You are not at the beginning yet.  The end is further away every day that she is still in your home.  I would consider speaking with your attorney about making it mandatory that she is not allowed to have another male in her house / or overnight while the kids are with her unless they have been dating for "x" number of months.  You have ALL of the power right now even though it doesn't feel that way.  Use it to your advantage to make this happen. You can make the offer go both ways since I am sure that you wouldn't do this anyway.  Their are some websites about the "FOG".  You will know when you begin to come out of it.  You will think much more clearly and wonder why and how you could have put up with the abuse that you did.  

She didn't want to sign a custody agreement, so hiring the attorney is in limbo. I'm ready to jump in it though, even though the CS will cost hundreds more /mo than what we verbally agreed upon. The attorney said the same thing about the guy, but that while we could write it, we couldn't force her to sign it. And that it wasn't quite legally binding anyway in our state (for some reason). The A said, "make it a year, because you know she won't be able to have a r/s that long." Knowing my X, though, she is so paranoid and non-trusting, that she won't have a guy over when the kids are there. She has been, and is really slick about living the double or triple life. Keeping it away from her family, too. I already alerted two trusted siblings about what was going on. I'll "bring down" her family upon her is she messes up in that regard with another guy, and they will stand by it. More drama, she should love it.

Turkish, also keep in mind that her seeing some young guy is not a reflection on you.  She is a mentally ill person.  The cheating has been the hardest thing for me to overcome.  It is an ego crusher.  I know now that my ex was going to shack up with other guys no matter what I did.  I still struggle with it in phases.  I get so pissed at the betrayal.  She is the looser in all of this though as is your wife.  Unfortunately, even if they know it they don't have the mental capacity to make it better.  You will be happy and full of self esteem again.  The process to get there will begin the day she is gone.

I know, man, I know. But I still see it as a reflection on what I wasn't providing her. But it's the whole filling a bucket with holes in the bottom thing. I was tired of trying, so I pulled back, and she went out. They were losers before, and will be losers, still, you are right.

[Waifed]

You are not at the beginning yet.  The end is further away every day that she is still in your home.  I would consider speaking with your attorney about making it mandatory that she is not allowed to have another male in her house / or overnight while the kids are with her unless they have been dating for "x" number of months.  You have ALL of the power right now even though it doesn't feel that way.  Use it to your advantage to make this happen. You can make the offer go both ways since I am sure that you wouldn't do this anyway.  Their are some websites about the "FOG".  You will know when you begin to come out of it.  You will think much more clearly and wonder why and how you could have put up with the abuse that you did.  

She didn't want to sign a custody agreement, so hiring the attorney is in limbo. I'm ready to jump in it though, even though the CS will cost hundreds more /mo than what we verbally agreed upon. The attorney said the same thing about the guy, but that while we could write it, we couldn't force her to sign it. And that it wasn't quite legally binding anyway in our state (for some reason). The A said, "make it a year, because you know she won't be able to have a r/s that long." Knowing my X, though, she is so paranoid and non-trusting, that she won't have a guy over when the kids are there. She has been, and is really slick about living the double or triple life. Keeping it away from her family, too. I already alerted two trusted siblings about what was going on. I'll "bring down" her family upon her is she messes up in that regard with another guy, and they will stand by it. More drama, she should love it.

Turkish, also keep in mind that her seeing some young guy is not a reflection on you.  She is a mentally ill person.  The cheating has been the hardest thing for me to overcome.  It is an ego crusher.  I know now that my ex was going to shack up with other guys no matter what I did.  I still struggle with it in phases.  I get so pissed at the betrayal.  She is the looser in all of this though as is your wife.  Unfortunately, even if they know it they don't have the mental capacity to make it better.  You will be happy and full of self esteem again.  The process to get there will begin the day she is gone.

I know, man, I know. But I still see it as a reflection on what I wasn't providing her. But it's the whole filling a bucket with holes in the bottom thing. I was tired of trying, so I pulled back, and she went out. They were losers before, and will be losers, still, you are right.

I know what you mean about he double life.  It makes you (me) want to puke that you allowed that kind of stuff to go on.  My ex was also a waif and although everyone is different i tend to think that a lot of waifs are comorbid with covert narcissism.  I never knew of this and read about it.  I still didn't believe it fit my ex until I read an article about someone who had lived with a covert N.  It was crazy the similarities compared to my relationship. The one thing about narcissistic people is they don't want to be exposed.  They are very secretive and live their lives in compartments so that they can control their lies and their lives as they progress through the various types of relationships (friends, partners, family, etc.).  I am reasonably sure my ex called the police because I began to expose some of her craziness to her friends/cheating buddy.  They don't like losing the control and fear their reputation being exposed.  I am not saying to use this to your advantage if she does have narcissistic traits but mentioning that you might expose her on this or that may give you the opportunity to trade one for the other.  Of course trying to get back at a  narcissistic person is not always a wise thing to do.

[GaGrl]

Ironfalls is right.  You are still deeply entrenched in the fog and it will not improve until she is removed from the house.  You have to get her out.  Every day she is there is another day that you are being damaged a little deeper.  You will feel instant relief once she leaves until everything hits you.  You will then begin the grieving process.  Once out of the fog you will realize that you gave it your all and she provided very little in the relationship.  It is a very unhealthy situation with her in the house with you.  You have got to get her gone!  I know your children are your world but what are they without you?  You have to take care of yourself starting right now.  They need you now and forever.  Work on yourself so that you can continue to be the great father that you obviously are.  You sound like a very kind man.  It is something that almost all woman desire in a  man.  Unfortunately, it is also something that kept you in a toxic relationship so long.  You have so very much to give to your children and a nice deserving woman somewhere down the road.  YOU HAVE TO START PUTTING YOURSELF FIRST.  SHE IS STILL EMOTIONALLY ABUSING YOU.  GET HER OUT NOW!  SHE SURVIVED BEFORE YOU MET HER AND SHE WILL CONTINUE TO SURVIVE WITHOUT YOU.  SHE IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ANYMORE EVEN THOUGH YOU SHARE CHILDREN.  I would guess that she will be willing to give up the majority of the time with the children once she moves out.  :)ocument all of it and eventually you can legally have the majority of the time with your children.

I feel for you and from an outsider looking in it is obvious that she is still tearing you apart piece by piece.  You have to get her out now.

This really hit home, as my DH and I had a conversation last night at dinner during which he told me a few more things about what his ex (The Dark Princess) did during the years he continued to hang in there with him.  DH's comment was that, at her worst, it was the children that got him through it, and he was grateful that he had them (as opposed to wishing they had never had children so he could just walk away).  It was just hurtful things, like arranging a big skating rink birthday party for their son, then going out the night before and partying, resulting in being too hungover to even go to S's party.  Or disappearing to party with whichever current boyfirend she had at the time, and just not coming home in the morning, knowing that DH was signed up for a 10K (his passion), so DH couldn't participate.  That kind of crap.  It just wears you down.  I think DH really suffered physcially (high blood pressure, etc.) by staying as long as he did.  By the time they divorced, the children were adults and all were doing the happy dance to have it happen.

[Turkish]

This really hit home, as my DH and I had a conversation last night at dinner during which he told me a few more things about what his ex (The Dark Princess)

I like that. Even though slight and petite, I prefer to call her The Dark Queen.

My S3 told me he had a dream last night that I, TDQ and our D1 were dancing. Poor kid. He says he's usually afraid to dream. This is the first time I got any specifics about what he is dreaming.

[goldylamont]

here's the deal Turkish, you know i have love for you b/c you have to live with this woman and your situation is worse than mine was b/c you have children. and i'm sure you haven't been perfect but you really, truly seem to be handling this much better than many people would be. this is indicative of your character--screw what that woman has to say about your character, as if she has ever experienced what it is to possess such a quality.

i started getting worked up reading through your post, here's my thoughts for what they are worth. and apologies ahead of time as i don't know the whole situation but perhaps this could bring some awareness. as always, stay strong my friend!

She gets on the phone in the spare room with the door closed, talking and soon laughing. Probably with the dude. She came out later in a very good mood.

She was genuinely in a good mood. It was meant for you to hear the conversation and to hear her laughing. She probably would have been happy even if you weren't around, but having you there so she could gloat made her all the happier. Be very careful when your ex is "nice" but you feel like crap << trust your instincts and not her 'niceness'. She's drunk on power.

She said she was being careful with the kids because she had a cold sore. I scoffed and said, "herpes!" She said she knew I'd say that (to myself: then why did you mention it?). I said not the STD, but from kissing. She said she isn't "doing that" with him... .That women sometimes get them during their times of the month.

BULL@#$%! I think you know this. There is bending of the truth, then there are just blatant lies. You have to stop projecting your own normal-ness and integrity onto her. Imagine if a friend told you this story about his ex. You'd call BS, right?

She was still in such a good mood from her conversation that it wasn't really a fight or even an argument. I almost wish it were, because the exchange just felt weird to me.

Why did it feel weird to you? Can you separate things out and think about why? Was it because she was just laughing with her new bf, and being nice, and asking you for a favor, and telling you about her STD, and lying about it and other things, and and and?

In this situation what was real was how you felt. Not what was said, or the 'niceness' in her saying it but how it made you feel. That whole 'nice' conversation had you feeling weird because it was weird--at least if it was an argument you would have known what her intentions were.

But I can't help but blame myself, still, for not focusing on her more, "watering the garden" as my T put it.

You're feeling guilty about a lie. That you didn't do good enough. You know that before my r/s even ended, I used to keep a task list of the good and/or romantic things I would do--like cooking dinner for her, doing sweet things like giving little gifts or (trying to) arrange for time for us to vacation? This was b/c I couldn't figure out why whatever I did was being devalued so much and it's so easy, so so easy to fall for the crap she's selling you about you somehow being inadequate. Sure, yeah right. Let me tell you, one of these statements is true: either you're inadequate and she's deserving of more love and attention, or, she's crazy.

nobody's perfect in a r/s, i know i haven't been in any of mine, but you'll find that you simply have to let go of some of this introspection you're doing because it's based on (her) lies. don't make her lies your reality. don't.

Perhaps, she's right in that I lacked character, and "in that, you failed."

AAAAAAAAH! Turkish!    you've got to know this isn't true.

was it that you didn't "water the garden" enough? or was it that you became depressed and withdrawn from months/years of slow and subtle deception?

was she really a garden? well, sometimes i'm sure she was very nice and appealing, and showed true compassion. but, you know, on the macro not the micro, was she more a garden needing water or a black hole sucking in light from any star close by?   << the truth is probably somewhere in-between. right now though i don't think you can say she's bearing any sweet fruits for you.

And I think that she justifies it in her mind due to her thoughts of: "a woman is much more hurt by emotional cheating; whereas, a man is much more hurt by physical cheating."

Again, bs. Physical cheating *is* emotionally damaging! duh. Men get hurt and women get hurt when they are disrespected or betrayed. That's just human. This woman is trying to justify her behavior, probably less to you and more to herself.

I think my point is that I really don't know what is reality anymore. I don't want to spend the holiday with her and her family, and will probably get a lot of pressure to do so.

Don't do it Turkish. Take the holidays for yourself. Make a promise to do this for yourself. You will be doing not just yourself a favor but also the children if you can take some time and recharge your batteries. If you can, do it in a non-confrontational way, but remain firm. My advice is to learn to be healthy-selfish, because you are living with someone who is unhealthy-and-selfish.

[Lady31]

goldylamont - Perfect post!  Great stuff!

Turkish - your character is FAR from lacking and YOU DID NOT FAIL.

Let this woman have all these little boys that match her character and maturity.  Man, that is going to be a beautiful life right there let me tell you.  (Sarcasm)

This woman is so full of crap I am having a hard time putting this in PG form.  SERIOUSLY!  PAAAAUUUUUUKKKKKEEE.

You are a kind, decent man with much resolve.  The woman has no substance.  You think if only you had done this or that... .?  What kind of love is that?  What is she really offering you?  As long as you do everything the way she needs you to do it (REGARDLESS of her actions or inaction) then you are lovable.  HUH?

I am so sick of seeing these selfish, self absorbed, low life, no character, ME ME ME ME ME ME ALL ABOUT ME, WEAK people that SUCK THE LIFE OUT OF GOOD PEOPLE and then turn around on their high horse and blame it on the other person.  I would love to scream at these people:

GROW UP AND GET OVER YOURSELF.  Stop crying like a little 2 year old kid because (whinny, complaining, bratty) "I'm not happy" - "I don't like this" - "This isn't what I want"... .blah blah blah.

They need a good dose of life to smack them in the face and then square on their behinds.

Don't you dare let this woman twist your mind Turkish. 

"Oh, Turkish, you weren't doing everything the way I wanted you too so I had to go out and cheat (and right in your face consistently), blame it on you, throw our marriage away, and the kids?  Well, they just have to deal with the fall out because I wasn't happy."

Go suck your thumb lady.  And Turkish - let her.

[Changingman]

Everything's been said Turkish,

After a ride with these people you can ONLY feel this way, anxious controlled, unconsciously wronged, suspicious, scared, shame and hurt.

This is an enemy dressed as a friend, that is the scariest part of this.

Get her out the house legally NOW. The kids will be alright, you will see to that after you stop her poison infecting you.

She is enjoying the excuisite pain she is causing you, very S&M. If she only has a small window of opportunity to do this she will up the pain till an explosion as she leaves.

Take control, she is crazy and trying to steer the relationship still, this is so dangerous for everyone. If she has to sort her life out she will be busy.

Good luck

[Turkish]

here's the deal Turkish, you know i have love for you b/c you have to live with this woman and your situation is worse than mine was b/c you have children. and i'm sure you haven't been perfect but you really, truly seem to be handling this much better than many people would be. this is indicative of your character--screw what that woman has to say about your character, as if she has ever experienced what it is to possess such a quality.

i started getting worked up reading through your post, here's my thoughts for what they are worth. and apologies ahead of time as i don't know the whole situation but perhaps this could bring some awareness. as always, stay strong my friend!

She gets on the phone in the spare room with the door closed, talking and soon laughing. Probably with the dude. She came out later in a very good mood.

She was genuinely in a good mood. It was meant for you to hear the conversation and to hear her laughing. She probably would have been happy even if you weren't around, but having you there so she could gloat made her all the happier. Be very careful when your ex is "nice" but you feel like crap << trust your instincts and not her 'niceness'. She's drunk on power.

She said she was being careful with the kids because she had a cold sore. I scoffed and said, "herpes!" She said she knew I'd say that (to myself: then why did you mention it?). I said not the STD, but from kissing. She said she isn't "doing that" with him... .That women sometimes get them during their times of the month.

BULL@#$%! I think you know this. There is bending of the truth, then there are just blatant lies. You have to stop projecting your own normal-ness and integrity onto her. Imagine if a friend told you this story about his ex. You'd call BS, right?

Yes, and I have found myself making excuses for her to my friends. Some are polite, some outright call the BS, whether wrong or right (here I am, making excuses when I write this... .what's wrong with me?)

But I can't help but blame myself, still, for not focusing on her more, "watering the garden" as my T put it.

You're feeling guilty about a lie. That you didn't do good enough.

Thank you. I needed to hear that. Objectively, taken in the context of the moment, things she said are true... .out of context. So they are not "truth."

You know that before my r/s even ended, I used to keep a task list of the good and/or romantic things I would do--like cooking dinner for her, doing sweet things like giving little gifts or (trying to) arrange for time for us to vacation? This was b/c I couldn't figure out why whatever I did was being devalued so much and it's so easy, so so easy to fall for the crap she's selling you about you somehow being inadequate. Sure, yeah right. Let me tell you, one of these statements is true: either you're inadequate and she's deserving of more love and attention, or, she's crazy.

nobody's perfect in a r/s, i know i haven't been in any of mine, but you'll find that you simply have to let go of some of this introspection you're doing because it's based on (her) lies. don't make her lies your reality. don't.

I did more of the cooking. I've bought her drinking water (since I shop and cook more) for the past 5 years because she got mad at me back then for forgetting to pick up water, even though I drink it out of the tap, as humankind did for thousands of years with no ill effect. She has no idea that I did little things like that. I was thinking about her comment the other night about painting the house. I had to literally text and call her to meet me at the paint store so she could pick put a color. This is the woman who can't decide what colors to wear and asks me, a guy, what my opinion is (she even asked me last night about her outfit for a conference). She said that, but I wanted to include her in the decision, like a COUPLE, with respect. Wth that she doesn't see it that way. I'm not going to engage in telling her either, because she will twist it.

Perhaps, she's right in that I lacked character, and "in that, you failed."

AAAAAAAAH! Turkish!    you've got to know this isn't true.

was it that you didn't "water the garden" enough? or was it that you became depressed and withdrawn from months/years of slow and subtle deception?

Hit the nail on the head, my friend. She told me something like this two months ago. "Are you even in love with me?" I paused... .this was before I found out about the affair, I think, but she was crying (manipulating). "You can't even answer!" 'Well, I said, do you ask your child if he loves you as you are beating the crap out of him? How do you think he will respond, even if he does?' But she correctly surmised it. My answer was "no" and she certainly wasn't with me. Some people think I am still "in love" with her. I don't know what it is, but I think you all here have a good idea, since all or most of us have or had the same feelings... .the FOG mixed with love or whatever.

was she really a garden? well, sometimes i'm sure she was very nice and appealing, and showed true compassion. but, you know, on the macro not the micro, was she more a garden needing water or a black hole sucking in light from any star close by?   << the truth is probably somewhere in-between. right now though i don't think you can say she's bearing any sweet fruits for you.

Right now, nothing. I was writing more of my life story last night and she said she got through the first two pages (up to 10 now). I told her I didn't want her reading it because she would share it with "him." She said that they really didn't talk about me much, but that she said that I was a nothing short of a great father (she's said this to all of her friends, even if she's slammed me as a lover... .by their treatment of me, I think this is true... .it's splitting me between two roles). Then I thought, "screw it, she can read it, what do I have to hide?" She said, "reading what little I did makes me respect you more what you went through. You're the father (a tool to be used) of my children!" I replied, "even Hitler was a father... .well, not really, but Ghengis Khan, Napoleon (sure he has bastid kids somewhere). Being a father doesn't mean anything." She looked at me quizzically. I said, "Oops, there's my sense of humor you don't like." She said, "Yeah, I never really got it... ." but I could tell she was hurt because I slammed her and myself. One thing in all of this is that I do know she respects me as a father, and she probably always will... .I fill her need to have a decent man in their life.

And I think that she justifies it in her mind due to her thoughts of: "a woman is much more hurt by emotional cheating; whereas, a man is much more hurt by physical cheating."

Again, bs. Physical cheating *is* emotionally damaging! duh. Men get hurt and women get hurt when they are disrespected or betrayed. That's just human. This woman is trying to justify her behavior, probably less to you and more to herself.

Yes. And I will have this conversation with her, saying just about this same thing. Like the other night when I threw out the continuing use, abuse and betrayal.

I think my point is that I really don't know what is reality anymore. I don't want to spend the holiday with her and her family, and will probably get a lot of pressure to do so.

Don't do it Turkish. Take the holidays for yourself. Make a promise to do this for yourself. You will be doing not just yourself a favor but also the children if you can take some time and recharge your batteries. If you can, do it in a non-confrontational way, but remain firm. My advice is to learn to be healthy-selfish, because you are living with someone who is unhealthy-and-selfish.

It will only be a day. And I won't be sitting at home drinking (that would be bad), but I'll find some time to go see a movie, shooting range, bike ride, whatever. Or just drive into the hills and sit with God and nature, then going home later when she brings the kids back. The last one sounds the best. But I'm ready for her to use the "OG" on me.

[Turkish]

Thanks, Changingman. And Lady, I laughed as I read your post. That's great stuff... .especially coming from a Lady. A real one!

I guess I need to deal with the half truths she'll tell her friends for support, though she did come clean to some about the cheating... .just her reasons for it.

I know the truth. My friends ALL know the truth (and the BPD), as does my mom, who's been a good support even if I haven't talked to her much about it. And her family knows "something" is up and that this is not normal. They grew up with and raised her after all. They experienced her rages, and have seen them now and then when I was around, as well as her depressive episodes. I used to liken it to 10 people in a room having a good time. In walks X... .and everyone is brought down. Not all of the time, but enough, as you all know. Not. Normal.

I picked up the kids last night at their grandmother's house. My X was still there since she stopped on the way to her exercise class to see the kids. I see the look of pain on her mother's face (we are somewhat separated by a language barrier, so talking is short phrases) about all of this... .like she was waiting for either a fight, or she knew I was uncomfortable because her daughter was still there. I am thankful that I have at least their passive support and validation, luckier than some of you here. Thank you all.