Interesting essay on cheaters...

[hellnback]

I saw this and it made me think... .What do you guys think?

www.rudd-o.com/archives/the-making-of-a-cheater

[Learning_curve74]

It seems to make sense to me... .  I know a lot of that was present in my BPD relationship. 

[MrFox]

Makes a lot of sense to me as well.  I have seen this in relationships between Nons, I imagine its more pronounced when BPD is involved since there is a greater fear of abandonment.

[DragoN]

An n=1 study?

Pretty sad for a source. But would be good for a smear campaign I suppose. Let's not forget that there exists a 50% divorce rate and that includes nons as well as cheating nons and PD's.

And the "nons" that get involved or attempt to involve themselves in a married person's relationship etc.etc.etc. Gets pretty messy.

Define "emotional" cheating? According to Bill Burr, that would make men worse than most women any day of the week.

[Octoberfest]

An n=1 study?

Pretty sad for a source. But would be good for a smear campaign I suppose. Let's not forget that there exists a 50% divorce rate and that includes nons as well as cheating nons and PD's.

And the "nons" that get involved or attempt to involve themselves in a married person's relationship etc.etc.etc. Gets pretty messy.

Define "emotional" cheating? According to Bill Burr, that would make men worse than most women any day of the week.

I am not quite sure what upset you so much about the article; BPD is not mentioned anywhere in the article.  The author also states that, "(Subsequently, I will use "she" to refer to the cheater, but you can mentally switch genders if you are into men.)" as well as, "I studied this problem extensively, because I had the misfortune of experiencing this -- the family history, traits and behaviors of the person I modeled here as a cheater are 100% faithful to what I know from her.  And it also happens that I have people in my family who have cheated too -- unsurprisingly their family history and behaviors fit the criteria for a cheater too. "

I found the article to be incredibly true concerning my BPDex.  The pattern of abandonment and rejection concerning her parents as well as the unhealthy way she deals with her emotions are spot on.  I don't think any "definition" or "criteria" for being a cheater or anything else for that matter is ever going to be 100% correct 100% of the time, but from others' responses already it does seem that the article speaks true for many people.

[DragoN]

Upsetting? No. Funny . n=1 is poor to generalize. BPD or not. The reality is worse though.

until she actually understands that it is her family of origin that poisoned her, and removes them from her life.

Under "cure for the cheater" ^^^^ You think that makes sense?


Source: Associated Press, Journal of Marital and Family Therapy

Research Date: 9.8.2013

---------- 41% 57% 54% 22% 14% 36% 35% 17% 2 years 31% 74% 68% 3%

---------- Percent of marriages where one or both spouses admit to infidelity, either physical or emotional Percent of men who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they’ve had Percentage of women who admit to committing infidelity in any relationship they’ve had Percent of married men who have strayed at least once during their married lives Percent of married women who have strayed at least once during their married lives Percentage of men and women who admit to having an affair with a co-worker Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity on business trips Percentage of men and women who admit to infidelity with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law Average length of an affair Percentage of marriages that last after an affair has been admitted to or discovered Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught Percent of children who are the product of infidelity

Then you need to define, Infidelity and Emotional Infidelity. I would like to think that is pretty obvious, but then we are running into the thought police.

Is it cheating if your BF or Husband is lusting the pretty cashier that he is hugely attracted to but never touches? They chat and flirt but doesn't go past that. Is that Emotional Infidelity? Where do you draw the line? It can get gray zone in a hurry.

Then there is marital infidelity of course. And the numbers don't look good at all whether or not BPD or any PD is involved.

[Calm Waters]

Well... .being a recovering cheater, i am BPD and NPD as a result of a neglectful suicidal massively damaged mother and narcissist father both BPD NPD and having led a double life until recently (20 years) I would say its bang on. Thanks you for sharing that.

[Blondy90]

Oh wow, regardless of the source of the information and how reliable this really spoke to me.

My ex cheated on me and it was a horrific break up. We lived together and I stupidly gave him another chance before finding him in bed with the someone on Christmas eve.

He came from a background where his mum was an alcoholic, his dad took a lot of drugs and they had a very controlling and abusive relationship. His dad consistently cheated on his mum (even with his own cousin). His mum retaliated by drugging his food and even put amphetamines in her children's tea to get them to go to school (how does that work?). His mum completely normalised drug taking and created a 'fun' environment for him and his friends to take drugs and get drunk from a young age. It was inevitable he was going to have issues (why I got involved I honestly can't tell you). He definitely had the negative mind set of 'I'm broken, I'm bad, I always screw up'.

I agree a lot of the things in the article sound a little strange and don't think it's right to talk about a 'cure' for cheating but a lot of things really described the guy that cheated on me well and it had a lot of good points that made sense to me. Thanks for sharing, very interesting.

[Skip]

What do you guys think?

My take is that is one really wounded anonymous software programmer who has read some psychology and is trying to make sense of his hurt - like all of us. And it sounds like he is making progress.

He proposition that cheating is more complicated matter than just being a "manwhore" and has roots in the family of origin is basic psychology and is precisely what we read in Bowen's Family Theory (which is discussed on this board.)  Ok.  Good.  His description of how an affair starts is one common model that is describe in many self-help books. Ok.  Good - but it's one model.

Where this falls short for me is in the authors implication that his essay contains universal truths and the usefulness of these truths.

Why do people cheat? What causes affairs? Towards a greater, more useful understanding of cheating and affairs.

Why is this useful to you?  Well, armed with the following knowledge, you will be able to reliably predict if someone is going to cheat on you, how the events in the affair will unfold, and hopefully help you stay out of relationships with these people, or nip them in the bud and then get out, or perhaps (though unlikely) help them overcome their issues.

I don't see any of this in this essay.

His description of the "pathology" is a collection of random family of origin problems that are not limited to people that have affairs and therefore are not predictive - some "cheaters have some, none, or all of these issues same can be said for non-cheaters.

And the "always-predictable script for an affair" is anything but always-predictable - some people get into it as far as paragraph one or two or three, or even six and have it go no further.  "Of course, as it happens with people who spend time together and listen to each other, passion and romance starts."   Really?  I wish    

And there are many other pathways to an affair - many.

Be careful reading bloggers.  Someone who had a bad relationship (or a gall bladder removed) is not necessarily an expert on relationships or gallbladders surgery - they know how it feels to experience gall bladder surgery is not how it is. At the same time, they have been there and they are working through thoughts and it is a place to learn if you read discriminatingly. 

Urban legends (and conspiracy theories) often start when well meaning people draft logical articles that mix reliable facts/theories and unreliable facts/theories.  We get this stuff in our email boxes every week.  I always check the authors background - and in this case, there is none.  

[Turkish]

Infidelity and cheating is rampant in my X's family. The longer we were together, the more common it became that I found out. For example, I only found out a year ago that her uncle and aunt live as married on the surface, but it is an open marriage, with no romantic ties to each other. Cousins, other uncles and aunts, a pattern. My X's father's lifelong pattern... .There is a cultural component to it with them as well. Add American Feminism and women's liberation (especially compared to her home culture) into the mix, and it makes for an entitlement Queen who thinks she deserves to do it if her man isn't meeting her needs, but is supposed to stay home and take care of the kids when she wants to go out and do her thing (diametrically opposed to how women in her home culture have it). I've had several people from the same culture approach me recently and say, "yes, that's more the norm than not." My X used to say she wouldn't date someone from her culture due to the rampant cheating. So of course she became that. Way to go for being an independent, whole person instead of following a stereotype.

I hate to say, that I might by into it and make it a pathology with me, never dating someone from that culture, unless I see that they are fairly well assimilated (and of course, this is no guarantee either).

[Iwalk-Heruns]

Personally I think most of what he said is pretty logical and I would agree. Sure it may not be conclusive and there may be other contributing factors not discussed but the ones he cited in my opinion definitely creates an unhealthy person and one capable of immoral acts without a care as to how it affects other people. Whether it be PD or lack of morals and values or both.

I thought he made it clear he was not an expert but was his opinion based on his experience and research. At least that what I got. Similar to they way we talk here.

[hellnback]

I found this essay while searching for information on the affects of cheating on the kids. What I found interesting is that the auther never mentions BPD or any other PD. It made me realize that there are traits of people who cheat. They cheat because of THEIR issues not ours.

I think what I need to understand is how and why I pick these people with these types of issues. Why am I attracted to people who cheat?

I've blamed myself for my ex wife cheating and leaving. But after I read this essay (good or not) I realized that she was going to cheat no matter what I did. She has HER issues and I cannot help.

Alot of us here search for the common elements of our SO's and search for the reasons why they did what they do. It may be more helpful to search for answers as to why we do what we do. Why do we attract these people in pain?

[Pretty Woman]

People, we need to remember... .cheating has nothing to do with us, it has to do with the person, their values and ways of dealing with things.

[Learning_curve74]

What I found interesting is that the auther never mentions BPD or any other PD. It made me realize that there are traits of people who cheat. They cheat because of THEIR issues not ours.

I think what I need to understand is how and why I pick these people with these types of issues. Why am I attracted to people who cheat?

YES! Kudos to you, hellnback, for realizing these two things. Too many people here blame themselves thinking they caused their partner to cheat, when the real issue is why we are attracted to them and/or put up with the behavior. It is very easy when we don't understand a pwBPD's behavior to fall into the trap of blaming ourselves.

I wonder how many of us have been involved multiple times with cheaters?

[Skip]

I've blamed myself for my ex wife cheating and leaving. But after I read this essay (good or not) I realized that she was going to cheat no matter what I did. She has HER issues and I cannot help.

Many people initially blames themselves for their partners affair.  And later shift to, "I had no role in it."  This, in itself may be black and white thinking associated with depression.  And depression is common to 72% of the members here.  Infidelity is certainly a driver of depression - it's a huge, deeply personal violation.

Did we make them do it?  No, that's on them.  

Where we part of the problem that motivated them to cheat?  In many cases yes, in some no.  

Are people hardwired to cheat - is their cheating inevitable?   I don't think we can say this.  If someone has a history of cheating, it is likely they will again, but there are many siblings that grew up in exactly the same environment and one had infidelity issues and one did not.

The author who the OP speaks links to speaks of cheating as a function of low self esteem and that is often related to childhood trauma.  But there are many possible reasons:    

• Low Self-Esteem



• Revenge



• Loneliness and Neglect



• Lack of Sizzle



• Lack of Sex at Home



• Lack of Intimacy at Home



• Unrealistic Expectations



• Lack of Female Social Support



• Wanting to Leave a Relationship



• Sex and/or Love Addiction

It may be more helpful to search for answers as to why we do what we do. Why do we attract these people in pain?

It may be the "loaded" relationship bond that we often talk about here.  Many couples look for their partner "to complete them" -- to provide them happiness they don't feel alone. They enter feeling some emptiness, unworthiness and insecurity, hoping their partner will fill them, validate them and complete them. As time goes on if they don't feel happy, secure, filled or complete, they began to look elsewhere. Perhaps someone else -- someone more attentive and more emotionally available, or sexier or more playful -- to fill the emptiness, validate their worth and make them happy.

Does this sound anything like your relationship bond?

[Octoberfest]

I've blamed myself for my ex wife cheating and leaving. But after I read this essay (good or not) I realized that she was going to cheat no matter what I did. She has HER issues and I cannot help.

Many people initially blames themselves for their partners affair.  And later shift to, "I had no role in it."  This, in itself may be black and white thinking associated with depression.  And depression is common to 72% of the members here.  Infidelity is certainly a driver of depression - it's a huge, deeply personal violation.

Did we make them do it?  No, that's on them.  

Where we part of the problem that motivated them to cheat?  In many cases yes, in some no.  



Are people hardwired to cheat - is their cheating inevitable?   I don't think we can say this.  If someone has a history of cheating, it is likely they will again, but there are many siblings that grew up in exactly the same environment and one had infidelity issues and one did not.

The author who the OP speaks links to speaks of cheating as a function of low self esteem and that is often related to childhood trauma.  But there are many possible reasons:    

• Low Self-Esteem



• Revenge



• Loneliness and Neglect



• Lack of Sizzle



• Lack of Sex at Home



• Lack of Intimacy at Home



• Unrealistic Expectations



• Lack of Female Social Support



• Wanting to Leave a Relationship



• Sex and/or Love Addiction

It may be more helpful to search for answers as to why we do what we do. Why do we attract these people in pain?

It may be the "loaded" relationship bond that we often talk about here.  Many couples look for their partner "to complete them" -- to provide them happiness they don't feel alone. They enter feeling some emptiness, unworthiness and insecurity, hoping their partner will fill them, validate them and complete them. As time goes on if they don't feel happy, secure, filled or complete, they began to look elsewhere. Perhaps someone else -- someone more attentive and more emotionally available, or sexier or more playful -- to fill the emptiness, validate their worth and make them happy.

Does this sound anything like your relationship bond?

To the first bolded statement- I would agree that, no, you can't look at strictly how someone was "raised" and make a definitive decision, "They WILL cheat".  I DO think however that you can look at how someone was "raised" and find that there are many warning signs, or indicators if you will, of a higher likelihood that someone will cheat.  There will ALWAYS be exceptions of course.  It is a matter of causation vs correlation- the presence of certain things in someones' upbringing DOES NOT mean they will cheat, but there is sure a correlation between people who do cheat and those specific traits/events.

To the second bolded statement- For me personally, I do not believe I had anything to do with my BPDex's decision to cheat.  I can't have; Our relationship began with her cheating on her boyfriend back in her hometown with me.  She told me they were broken up, and had broken up because she was going to college in my town and they didn't want to do long distance.  The truth? She was dating both of us for the first 6 of the 9 months of our relationship. I didn't even have a chance to mess things up, it all began as a lie. For a 1-2 month period in there she was also dating a guy in a third city as well. I was with my BPDex every single day, and we slept in the same bed/had sex 6+/7 nights a week on average even though we lived separately.  She only ever saw both these guys once or twice a month when she would go to either town to see her divorced parents, one of whom lived in each town (and the father not even being her real father, her real father having left when she was a baby.  She feels an enormous sense of abandonment from this). I provided her with as much attention and love and sex and everything else that any normal person could ever want. You speak about people seeking a partner who can fill their emptiness, or the void, that they feel within themselves- I don't believe my BPDex's can be filled.  She evidently needed 3+ guys at once in order to do it.  As I found out about each instance of cheating, it would end and another would covertly begin.  There were not more than 2-3 weeks throughout our entire relationship that she was not involved with someone else as well as myself. 

She has also been, at the age of 22, married once and engaged a few other times already.  Bouncing around relationship to relationship, town to town, guy to guy (and sometimes girls), is simply what she does.

I was by no means perfect in that relationship.  I made plenty of mistakes. I certainly have behaviors that I need to sit down and take a long hard look at.

I DID send a message that the cheating was OK by staying with her and giving her chance after chance (even though in my mind I was "saving" her from her disorder and that it would all pay off one day).  I DID NOT ever tell her cheating was ok in the first place, or cause her to start doing it.  She is on replacement #3, that I know of, there could be more, and we have been broken up for 7 months now.  I know that the first 2 replacements she was involved with overlappingly/concurrently, just like she was with me and others during our entire relationship. The problem was there before I met her, while I knew her, and after we have split.  It is her problem; one might argue, "oh well, all of the guys she gets involved with "trigger" her and THEY have a role in making her cheat," to which I will laugh them out of the room. In 22 years my BPDex claims to have been raped, sexually abused by boyfriends, physically abused by boyfriends, cheated on in every single relationship she has ever had, abandoned by her father, she has been to 3 different colleges in 3 years of schooling, she has moved across the country twice only to move back because she couldn't hold it together, has been married but that failed because, "she caught him with another woman in their bed", engaged a few other times that all failed because, "they cheated", and more. That is a HUGE list of misfortune, and I fell into the trap of believing that my BPDex has just been dealt a really tough hand her entire life, and that I could be the one to turn it all around.  I finally figured out what links my BPDex's illustrious past all together- HER.  HER alone. 

I have learned since the breakup that she has told people that I abused her as well, that I cheated on her, and that I was manipulative and controlling.  As well as that she left our college town because she needed to get treatment for cancer, and another town had better doctors. I know the truth about the first 3 items there- and I asked her brother about the last one.  Guess how many are true? You got it.  So in all likelihood, half of the stuff she told me happened to her never happened, or sure didn't happen the way she told me.

Sorry for being longwinded.  I will own up to my mistakes and my own faults.  But I refuse to take responsibility for or to own hers' anymore.  As my T told me, they are not my burdens to bear.

[Iwalk-Heruns]

I've blamed myself for my ex wife cheating and leaving. But after I read this essay (good or not) I realized that she was going to cheat no matter what I did. She has HER issues and I cannot help.

Many people initially blames themselves for their partners affair.  And later shift to, "I had no role in it."  This, in itself may be black and white thinking associated with depression.  And depression is common to 72% of the members here.  Infidelity is certainly a driver of depression - it's a huge, deeply personal violation.

Did we make them do it?  No, that's on them.  

Where we part of the problem that motivated them to cheat?  In many cases yes, in some no.  

Are people hardwired to cheat - is their cheating inevitable?   I don't think we can say this.  If someone has a history of cheating, it is likely they will again, but there are many siblings that grew up in exactly the same environment and one had infidelity issues and one did not.

The author who the OP speaks links to speaks of cheating as a function of low self esteem and that is often related to childhood trauma.  But there are many possible reasons:    

• Low Self-Esteem



• Revenge



• Loneliness and Neglect



• Lack of Sizzle



• Lack of Sex at Home



• Lack of Intimacy at Home



• Unrealistic Expectations



• Lack of Female Social Support



• Wanting to Leave a Relationship



• Sex and/or Love Addiction

It may be more helpful to search for answers as to why we do what we do. Why do we attract these people in pain?

It may be the "loaded" relationship bond that we often talk about here.  Many couples look for their partner "to complete them" -- to provide them happiness they don't feel alone. They enter feeling some emptiness, unworthiness and insecurity, hoping their partner will fill them, validate them and complete them. As time goes on if they don't feel happy, secure, filled or complete, they began to look elsewhere. Perhaps someone else -- someone more attentive and more emotionally available, or sexier or more playful -- to fill the emptiness, validate their worth and make them happy.

Does this sound anything like your relationship bond?

I completely disagree with this statement. Another persons actions should not cause us to change our values. That is just an excuse.

People may try to justify that someone caused them to cheat but like you said that is on them.

The supposed reasons people give are bs. Maybe the person that wants to cheat is not putting into the relationship what they should which causes the other to withdraw etc.

I know that nothing someone could do could cause me to cheat. I would leave the relationship if it came to that before I would cheat.

[Iwalk-Heruns]

I found this essay while searching for information on the affects of cheating on the kids. What I found interesting is that the auther never mentions BPD or any other PD. It made me realize that there are traits of people who cheat. They cheat because of THEIR issues not ours.

I think what I need to understand is how and why I pick these people with these types of issues. Why am I attracted to people who cheat?

I've blamed myself for my ex wife cheating and leaving. But after I read this essay (good or not) I realized that she was going to cheat no matter what I did. She has HER issues and I cannot help.

Alot of us here search for the common elements of our SO's and search for the reasons why they did what they do. It may be more helpful to search for answers as to why we do what we do. Why do we attract these people in pain?

I think it may be just a statistical inevitability unfortunately with the numbers being so high of people who admit to cheating and maybe not anything you are doing wrong or picking. Some people can be very deceitful.

I do think I will try and vet them better but that is still no guarantee.

I find it so hurtful and my ex was so secretive about it it has seriously affected my trust of people for future relationships. I hope I can somehow come to grips with it and overcome that.

[Skip]

I find it so hurtful and my ex was so secretive about it it has seriously affected my trust of people for future relationships. I hope I can somehow come to grips with it and overcome that.

It is a huge betrayal and violation.

[Calm Waters]

relationships are complex as are people, none of us are fully equipped to cope with the social constructs we are expected to live within