We both lied.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

We lied to ourselves that they weren't crazy and just misunderstood, even though it was obvious. We lied to ourselves about our own issues that would cause us to get in to this. We clung to something perfect. When unconditional love, acknowledges and accepts flaws, not just tolerates or denies them in resentment. We too didn't know unconditional love, just unconditional sacrifice. Unconditional love first comes from giving the same to yourself. In the end, it was both of our neediness and both of our denial of reality that caused much of this. Abuse is still abuse though, no one should make excuses for that. I can't believe I was in a relationship essentially with myself the whole time. Since she never gave me much understanding, mostly just adore.

[BuildingFromScratch]

We lied to ourselves that they weren't crazy and just misunderstood, even though it was obvious. We lied to ourselves about our own issues that would cause us to get in to this. We clung to something perfect. When unconditional love, acknowledges and accepts flaws, not just tolerates or denies them in resentment. We too didn't know unconditional love, just unconditional sacrifice. Unconditional love first comes from giving the same to yourself. In the end, it was both of our neediness and both of our denial of reality that caused much of this. Abuse is still abuse though, no one should make excuses for that. I can't believe I was in a relationship essentially with myself the whole time. Since she never gave me much understanding, mostly just adore.

[necchi]

I feel the same... .Imagine if we were alone in it ,how much love we can offer to ourselves! But it is so hard to catalyze towards us .what are we missing?

[Findingmysong723]

We lied to ourselves that they weren't crazy and just misunderstood, even though it was obvious. We lied to ourselves about our own issues that would cause us to get in to this. We clung to something perfect. When unconditional love, acknowledges and accepts flaws, not just tolerates or denies them in resentment. We too didn't know unconditional love, just unconditional sacrifice. Unconditional love first comes from giving the same to yourself. In the end, it was both of our neediness and both of our denial of reality that caused much of this. Abuse is still abuse though, no one should make excuses for that. I can't believe I was in a relationship essentially with myself the whole time. Since she never gave me much understanding, mostly just adore.

I agree, sadly! I saw signs but let them go, made excuses for him because he was a recovering alcoholic, thought he would get better but when he didn't get better should of walked away... .but he walked away from me first! However, I was going "crazy" by the end  of the relationship,  I remember walking into the bedroom and saying to myself " I can't take this anymore," but I still didn't have the strength to leave! After that day I didn't feel the "in love" feeling anymore for him,  it was gone for good. I think I would of left, but not sure how I would of handled it, but I'm happy someone let the "bleeding stop" by him breaking up with me! However, I chose not to pretend to be "friends" again after the breakup this time, which I believe was when I finally stood up for myself, which feels good!

[BuildingFromScratch]

I also think it's important to focus on yourself as much as possible. Your mistakes, your anger, your lessons. Focusing on what you think you had or what they should have done is of limited use, but we all go through that phase, I'm finally over it for the most part. I'm sure I will have moments of weakness still.

[angel1234]

All I can say is when there is BPD and an addiction, there's no more crazy you could possibly imagine on both sides. even without BPD, with just addiction, the entire family/relationships become sicl. It affects everyone involved with the addict.

[Ironmanrises]

I knew about her BPD after she left me in round 1 and still accepted her back in for round 2 fully knowing that. Fully knowing she was going to leave again. Why I did that? The answer still alludes me. I know I loved the person that she portrayed to me in the years of friendship before the relationship started, until the Janus-faced entity appeared in the form of Medusa. Why I still stuck around after that? Low self esteem? My feelings were already heavily invested. There was no lying in terms of that. I was fully aware even down to the month she was going to undergo that f¥ck awful transformation that still rocks me to my core, to this day 5 months NC later. Doesn't matter at this point, damage has been done. The scars run deep, my friends.

[ScotisGone74]

I could only add that the addictions come in many forms... .I believe my exBPD was a sex addict.   it definately makes everything else more complicated.   But to reflect, in a way I suppose I became an enabler without even knowing it, getting caught up in the idea I loved her.  Lots of lines get blurred with that.  

[Mutt]

We lied to ourselves that they weren't crazy and just misunderstood, even though it was obvious. We lied to ourselves about our own issues that would cause us to get in to this. We clung to something perfect. When unconditional love, acknowledges and accepts flaws, not just tolerates or denies them in resentment. We too didn't know unconditional love, just unconditional sacrifice. Unconditional love first comes from giving the same to yourself. In the end, it was both of our neediness and both of our denial of reality that caused much of this. Abuse is still abuse though, no one should make excuses for that. I can't believe I was in a relationship essentially with myself the whole time. Since she never gave me much understanding, mostly just adore.

I would say that I overlooked many things and knew that there was something wrong but could not put my finger on it. I'm not a professional, how am I supposed to know? Should I be hard on myself? No.

I decided to take what belonged to me. What go me there in the first place. Work on myself and make myself a better man. There is exponential growth there if you choose it.

[BuildingFromScratch]

I would say that I overlooked many things and knew that there was something wrong but could not put my finger on it. I'm not a professional, how am I supposed to know? Should I be hard on myself? No.

I decided to take what belonged to me. What go me there in the first place. Work on myself and make myself a better man. There is exponential growth there if you choose it.

Yeah, definitely don't be hard on yourself. Sometimes we just gotta learn our lessons the hard way or many times, as humans we forget our lessons easily. I think I can finally stand on my own two feet emotionally, for the first time in my life, once I'm healed from this. All I gotta say is I'm glad the crazy woman is gone and I can live a simple life again, even if I am pretty messed up in the head from all this. With her, I felt like every problem was some unsolvable puzzle. Now I can solve my puzzles 100x more easily.

[heartandwhole]

Unconditional love first comes from giving the same to yourself.

Wise words, Superior.  I fell into a vortex of trying to be unconditionally loving to pwBPD, and not just him, others too.  One day I realized I had forgotten to include myself in that equation.

[Changingman]

I don't believe alcoholism is a disease anymore. I think alcohol is used for fun socially right up to self medication for the broken and mentally sick.

Alcoholism is a symptom not the cause.

I thought it was about the alcohol and drugs that made her messed up in thinking and feeling and acting out.

This is part of the false mask mine wears, love of sex the same, made up like a transvestite the same, multiple emotional/sexual/non relationships the same.

They should declassify alcoholism as a disease.

This helped fool us into thinking they were good people under the effect of it. They're not, the alcohol is the innocent party, it is like water... .you can drink in it or drown in it.

Alcohol has no feelings, motivation, desire.

People have feelings, motivation, desires.

Alcohol isn't bad, people are bad.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

BPD doesn't hurt us, people with BPD hurt us.

They know what they do and often enjoy it.

Sadists.

[Ironmanrises]

I don't believe alcoholism is a disease anymore. I think alcohol is used for fun socially right up to self medication for the broken and mentally sick.

Alcoholism is a symptom not the cause.

I thought it was about the alcohol and drugs that made her messed up in thinking and feeling and acting out.

This is part of the false mask mine wears, love of sex the same, made up like a transvestite the same, multiple emotional/sexual/non relationships the same.

They should declassify alcoholism as a disease.

This helped fool us into thinking they were good people under the effect of it. They're not, the alcohol is the innocent party, it is like water... .you can drink in it or drown in it.

Alcohol has no feelings, motivation, desire.

People have feelings, motivation, desires.

Alcohol isn't bad, people are bad.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

BPD doesn't hurt us, people with BPD hurt us.

They know what they do and often enjoy it.

Sadists.

Sadists to themselves since the pwBPD hates themselves but outwardly expresses that hate onto us, perhaps?

[ScotisGone74]

I would agree with the majority what Changingman had to say.  Although my exBPD was never what I would call an alcoholic or drug addict, even though she did drink and take prescription drugs often, I believe that with a little time and a couple of more sickening relationships like the one she put me through she will eventually get there.  

They do the drugs and drink to help mask their true feelings of inner worthlessness, keep them feeling good, keep on that false face.  

They know what they do and they enjoy it-yes they do and it is sickening-but when the current fairy tale starts going downhill they would give their eye tooth to have us still on the hook around the corner, you can bank on that.  

[Findingmysong723]

I don't believe alcoholism is a disease anymore. I think alcohol is used for fun socially right up to self medication for the broken and mentally sick.

Alcoholism is a symptom not the cause.

I agree, nobody drinks excessively because they just like the taste, there is something behind it! My Ex told me he drank because it helped him feel better about himself. He had friends that drank like him and did drugs like him when he was a teenager and in his 20's. My Ex and I both went to see a concert and he told me that he enjoyed being there sober. He had been to that theatre in the past with friends, but they used to get drunk etc before the show and didn't really get to enjoy the music.  My Ex was in recovery when I met him, but he had relapsed 6 moths before, I know !  However, I thought he had fallen far and had no where to go but up. I liked that he knew that he had a problem and he would do something about it.

His Father is a recovering alcoholic or an alcoholic who doesn't drink excessively as he did when my Ex boyfriend was young. I remember at the end of our breakup the 2nd and final time, he told me basically that "I'm an addict," what do you expect kind of about his behavior. He was working the program when I met him, but after we had been together a few months he stopped. He told me he felt like he had been doing it for too long and it didn't help. I also think that he is not religious so that sometimes he couldn't relate to the religious aspect of it or something.

My Ex was also seeing a shrink or therapist, not sure which kind, he would say "shrink." I was happy he was talking to a therapist and trying to get his life back together, but he didn't go on a regular basis. He stopped going when we were dating, but only when things would hit the fan. He told me he had gone back to his "shrink," when we broke up the first time, to handle our relationship changing. I wouldn't of cared if he didn't go to AA if he just went to a therapist/shrink on a regular basis, because I feel that he needs to deal with the feelings he has that makes him want to drink so much.

Whether all his actions were of a dry drunk or someone with BPD, he is not a healthy person, there was too much emotional up and downs that weren't healthy! I think he is the most emotionally hurt person I have ever known or at least cared so much about and tried to love! I mean he relapsed, by drinking excessively and taking drugs, whether or not he meant to kill himself or get someone's attention, this is someone in a lot of pain. He told we close to the end or our relationship that he tried to kill himself, not sure if the relapse was that time and he had cut himself. I think he he dealt with his paint inwardly and with me I saw the pain outwardly but taking it out on me.

Then there is his Father, who was physically abusive to his Mom when he was young, he saw all this. My Ex has become a bully, he was emotionally abusive and verbally abusive at times to me! I'll probably never say it to him, but that is one thing that I'd like to say to him, tell him that he has become what he hated his Father for. I still remember him saying to me once "what I did is bad, but what does it say about someone who takes it?"  He be blames the victim. I also remember him telling me how lucky I was not to be with an "abusive boyfriend" because I was someone who couldn't stand up for myself. Wait wait, but I did have an abusive boyfriend... . I wonder if he blamed his Mom for allowing his Father do that to her? Although he probably hated his Father for what he did, but I'm sure he was angry at his Mom for not getting herself, him and his brothers out of that situation sooner!

I guess what did I expect from someone who has that kind of baggage in his life? I got a chaotic relationship because that's what's normal to him and what he brought with him! However, I do believe people who are willing to do the work can have healthy and happy relationships whether they have a bad childhood or not!

Went on a little tangent but hey, this is the place to do it.

[Waifed]

I definitely ignored way too many red flags. It was difficult when you have a partner who acts like you hung the moon and never had eyes for anyone but me in public, clinging to me like a newlywed from day 1. She was also as affectionate behind closed doors. Three years of intoxicating affection offset her silent treatments and control attempts. Sad thing is I would probably still be with her if I hadn't caught her cheating. I never realized that cheating could be a such blessing

[ucmeicu2]

Whether all his actions were of a dry drunk or someone with BPD, he is not a healthy person, there was too much emotional up and downs that weren't healthy!

<cut>

I guess what did I expect from someone who has that kind of baggage in his life? I got a chaotic relationship because that's what's normal to him and what he brought with him! However, I do believe people who are willing to do the work can have healthy and happy relationships whether they have a bad childhood or not!

Went on a little tangent but hey, this is the place to do it.

hey, tangent away, Fingmysong!  i for one enjoyed the read and your question:  indeed, what could we expect from someone with such baggage?  duh, i feel foolish now... .but when someone makes you feel like you hung the moon (love that phrase) maybe it's easy to start feeling like you can accomplish great things, including getting our pwBPD on this side of normal.  when you look at it that way, maybe it doesn't sound so co-dependent after all.

i was wondering if you'd expound a bit on what you said?  very interested in the similarities you seem to have found in dry drunk and BPD.  do they look the same?  i'd love to hear more about that.  thnx!

[Findingmysong723]

Whether all his actions were of a dry drunk or someone with BPD, he is not a healthy person, there was too much emotional up and downs that weren't healthy!

<cut>

I guess what did I expect from someone who has that kind of baggage in his life? I got a chaotic relationship because that's what's normal to him and what he brought with him! However, I do believe people who are willing to do the work can have healthy and happy relationships whether they have a bad childhood or not!

Went on a little tangent but hey, this is the place to do it.

hey, tangent away, Fingmysong!  i for one enjoyed the read and your question:  indeed, what could we expect from someone with such baggage?  duh, i feel foolish now... .but when someone makes you feel like you hung the moon (love that phrase) maybe it's easy to start feeling like you can accomplish great things, including getting our pwBPD on this side of normal.  when you look at it that way, maybe it doesn't sound so co-dependent after all.

i was wondering if you'd expound a bit on what you said?  very interested in the similarities you seem to have found in dry drunk and BPD.  do they look the same?  i'd love to hear more about that.  thnx!

ucmeicu2,

Don't feel foolish, you're not alone here with seeing the flags and continuing to stay in the relationship. For me it wasn't so much the idealization, I mean of course that was nice, but being put on a pedestal is actually uncomfortable for me and I doubt the sincerity of it. I remember when we first started dating, he told me how much he missed me, after a day apart or something like that and I told him "really, we just saw each other the other day." I think he said "oh I know, but I missed you." So, I did point out his behavior (in a nice way) and saw it was a little much very early on but I guess I got sorta sucked in. However, I would of loved not to be put on a pedestal, what I truly wanted and would of loved would of been a slow and steady secure relationship! I didn't want a damn pedestal!

The best times I had with him, was when I felt comfortable with the relationship (well of course before he would pull the rug out from under me) which was when we were just making dinner together or hanging out with the "kids" aka cats, when I would take a shower after an Adoption day and then put on comfy clothes and lay together on the couch and watch TV. It was the simple things, being together in every day life to support each other, be each others' best friends with the fun stuff and the everyday stuff! I wanted intimacy not intensity, I think you can have intensity when you are intimate but intimacy is what  lasts if you work on it and you want in the long run! Don't get me wrong, compliments etc are nice but that wasn't what kept me there. It was the time that I felt we were becoming a "team" were the most intimate times for me and that's what makes me sad. Seriously, a guy can say how much he likes me but until I feel comfortable in the relationship and know he means it, it means nothing! Words are very important to me, I don't want someone to tell me something they don't mean!

For me, I think when my Ex opened up about his recovery and how he wanted to get his life together, I really believed him! I saw someone that fell down and was working hard to get himself up! I met two of his friends, a couple who were really nice and had their lives together and I thought wow he is picking good friend now etc. I know it helped hat I don't drink and I was very supportive of him, but of course I forget to support myself! I knew that his coping skills would be bad, but I thought he would get better the longer I was with him and he was sober. He is hopefully going to be 3 years sober in a few months.


However, when he stopped going to AA or therapy, I should of known that this was going to fall apart. To answer your question about a dry drunk, these are the characteristics.

The Signs/Symptoms Of The Syndrome

A recovering alcoholic needs to be aware of the typical signs of Dry Drunk Syndrome in order to prevent falling into relapse. You need to undertake timely and appropriate action if you observe the following signs:

•   Feelings of superiority – When a recovering alcoholic fails to achieve sober realism, he or she exaggerates his sense of self-importance. This skewed mindset may be manifested either as strength or weakness in character.

•   Intolerance – An alcoholic is prone to make inappropriate evaluations and tend to become exceedingly judgmental in his or her actuations and interaction with other people. This can sometimes develop into anger management problems, which greatly complicate the recovery process.

•   Misplaced value judgment - The need for instant gratification of one’s personal desires becomes the overriding concern of an alcoholic. A recovering alcoholic loses his or her sense of priority to a point that even a passing fancy is given due course over that of the more essential concerns.

•   Unpremeditated acts – Failure to control the need for instant gratification will trigger impulsive acts and feelings. This impulsiveness will ultimately force a person to ignore the implications of his or her actions and decisions.

•   Vacillation – A person who tends to become impulsive will also be indecisive. Indecisiveness occurs when an alcoholic fails to weigh the implications of his or her action or decision. He or she vacillates when faced with several courses of action and ends up not taking action at all.

Other behaviors that can be part of this syndrome are as follows:

•   Abrupt shifts from depression to euphoria

•   Inability to express feelings and emotions naturally

•   Lack of introspection

•   Evidence of distortion and distraction

•   Avoid emotional connection or attachment

•   Unrealistic appreciation of self-worth

•   Detachment from reality

[Changingman]

I don't believe alcoholism is a disease anymore. I think alcohol is used for fun socially right up to self medication for the broken and mentally sick.

Alcoholism is a symptom not the cause.

I thought it was about the alcohol and drugs that made her messed up in thinking and feeling and acting out.

This is part of the false mask mine wears, love of sex the same, made up like a transvestite the same, multiple emotional/sexual/non relationships the same.

They should declassify alcoholism as a disease.

This helped fool us into thinking they were good people under the effect of it. They're not, the alcohol is the innocent party, it is like water... .you can drink in it or drown in it.

Alcohol has no feelings, motivation, desire.

People have feelings, motivation, desires.

Alcohol isn't bad, people are bad.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

BPD doesn't hurt us, people with BPD hurt us.

They know what they do and often enjoy it.

Sadists.

Sadists to themselves since the pwBPD hates themselves but outwardly expresses that hate onto us, perhaps?

No ironman,

Sadists.

Pleasure from hurting the innocent. They are living in hell and want to drag you in and change places with you.

No Ironman

They ARE sadists.

I experienced it, shocked me to the core.

They are SO hurt, so what?

Deal with it.

They are in hell!

Good

[Changingman]

As for we both lied ?

No

One lied

And

One hoped