85% good

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

As I detached from the relationship the hardest thing for me to deal with was the feeling that for the most part things if not great were good or at the least ok. Especially in the later years of our marriage there were fewer anger outbursts and verbal assaults. So I asked myself what were my expectations, perfection? A friend of mine recently was talking about her marriage and told me it was 85% good and she was happy with that. Well, I'd have said my marriage to xBPDh was at least 85% so why wasn't I happy with that. I think the difference lies not only in that 15% but also the difference in the 85%. Normal relationships have ups and downs but the 15% I was dealing with involved the threat of physical abuse, the use of intimate knowledge to harm and destroy, and the cutting down of my personal psyche. That shouldn't happen in a relationship, that during a down or difficult time that one partner seeks to do harm to the other partner on an ongoing and cyclical manner. And with eyes open I see this pattern of abuse now where I didn't previously. The cycle of mostly good times and then a short period of emotional tearing down or creating anxiety inducing events. Like most abused partners I believed he couldn't help himself but that I could help him get through whatever the current crisis was. Like most abused partners I though the "good" man was who he really was and that by standing by him he could get rid of the "bad" man that occasionally came out. Like most abused partners I believed him when he said I deserved better and he was going to try and become the man I deserved. That was the 15%. But that 15% changed the 85%. I seldom revealed any of my personal thoughts to him for fear they would be used against me. I learned to anticipate triggers and changed myself to appease and prevent outbursts. It was not safe to lose my temper or say anything negative to him. And the 85% that I thought was good was fictional. He was lying and deceiving and I saw only what he created for me to see. So that is what I see is the difference in a healthy relationship vs a dysfunctional relationship. So I guess the question I am left with is by the very nature of BPD is it possible to have a non abusive relationship with a partner who remains untreated and suffers from this psychological disorder.

[Cumulus]

As I detached from the relationship the hardest thing for me to deal with was the feeling that for the most part things if not great were good or at the least ok. Especially in the later years of our marriage there were fewer anger outbursts and verbal assaults. So I asked myself what were my expectations, perfection? A friend of mine recently was talking about her marriage and told me it was 85% good and she was happy with that. Well, I'd have said my marriage to xBPDh was at least 85% so why wasn't I happy with that. I think the difference lies not only in that 15% but also the difference in the 85%. Normal relationships have ups and downs but the 15% I was dealing with involved the threat of physical abuse, the use of intimate knowledge to harm and destroy, and the cutting down of my personal psyche. That shouldn't happen in a relationship, that during a down or difficult time that one partner seeks to do harm to the other partner on an ongoing and cyclical manner. And with eyes open I see this pattern of abuse now where I didn't previously. The cycle of mostly good times and then a short period of emotional tearing down or creating anxiety inducing events. Like most abused partners I believed he couldn't help himself but that I could help him get through whatever the current crisis was. Like most abused partners I though the "good" man was who he really was and that by standing by him he could get rid of the "bad" man that occasionally came out. Like most abused partners I believed him when he said I deserved better and he was going to try and become the man I deserved. That was the 15%. But that 15% changed the 85%. I seldom revealed any of my personal thoughts to him for fear they would be used against me. I learned to anticipate triggers and changed myself to appease and prevent outbursts. It was not safe to lose my temper or say anything negative to him. And the 85% that I thought was good was fictional. He was lying and deceiving and I saw only what he created for me to see. So that is what I see is the difference in a healthy relationship vs a dysfunctional relationship. So I guess the question I am left with is by the very nature of BPD is it possible to have a non abusive relationship with a partner who remains untreated and suffers from this psychological disorder.

[Learning_curve74]

This is a good topic, Cumulus, thanks for bringing it up.

From the article: Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

Healthy relationships are characterized by respect, sharing and trust. They are based on the belief that both partners are equal, that the power and control in the relationship are equally shared.

Some of the characteristics of a healthy relationship are:

Respect - listening to one another, valuing each other's opinions, and listening in a non-judgmental manner. Respect also involves attempting to understand and affirm the other's emotions.

Trust and support - supporting each other's goals in life, and respecting each other's right to his/her own feelings, opinions, friends, activities and interest. It is valuing one's partner as an individual.

Honesty and accountability - communicating openly and truthfully, admitting mistakes or being wrong, acknowledging past use of violence, and accepting responsibility for one's self.

Shared responsibility - making family/relationship decisions together, mutually agreeing on a distribution of work which is fair to both partners. If parents, the couple shares parental responsibilities and acts as positive, non-violent role models for the children.

Economic partnership - in marriage or cohabitation, making financial decisions together, and making sure both partners benefit from financial arrangements.

Negotiation and fairness - being willing to compromise, accepting change, and seeking mutually satisfying solutions to conflict.

Non-threatening behavior - talking and acting in a way that promotes both partners' feelings of safety in the relationship. Both should feel comfortable and safe in expressing him/herself and in engaging in activities.

I can only speak for myself, but out of those seven characteristics listed above, I can say that I and my pwBPD have three of them in our relationship and are about halfway on another three of them. So I do struggle with realizing that our relationship is not an entirely healthy one. Just for background info, we don't live together, and she is not in therapy except for seeing a psychiatrist which is mostly just for her Rx.

She did try to hurt me physically a few times early on, but my pwBPD is a waif and most of the abuse was emotional, i.e. basically lying, push/pull, and infidelity.

When you say 85%, Cumulus, what does that mean? Are you saying your xBPDh was fine 85% of the time? Or just that if you were to put a number on it, he graded out at 85%?

[Tausk]

Yes, you are hitting on a big part of it for me as well.  My standards for "good" became so distorted.  If I wasn't having to hit the deck and avoid shrapnel... . it was pretty good.

But good for most people involves an adult relationship.   But, my ex was never going to be more than a 3 year old emotionally.  I was never going to be able to share and expect empathy.  I was never going to be able to hope that she would take responsibility for her actions, even the cultivating of other men as back up.  I wasn't ever going to be able to expect that she'd remember me if she left all of a sudden.   And sadly, I realized that I couldn't even expect her to grieve for me if I died first.

It was semi-adult (me) and mercurial child (her).  There was delight, and joy, and wonderment, just like when I entertained my niece.  But not adult/adult interaction. 

And the bad... . abuse, violence, devaluation, abandonment, rage, destruction, cheating... .

And I had to ask why did it seem familiar, why did not feel I deserved more, and why was I willing to live in such despair.

[Cimbaruns]

Tausk

I can totally relate... . trying to live in an adult r/s with someone with the emotions of a child is quite difficult.  And yes

Why didn't I feel that I deserved better. And why live in such despair most all of the time?

Those are the questions(of many) that I need to find answers to as I work on myself.

Cumulus

I'm not sure it is possible to live with someone with this sort of psychological disorder in a truly functional way... yes normal r/s have ups and downs but being out of it now brings an incredible amount of clarity to just how disordered it really was.

I could agree that it was 85% good and the rest totally anxiety filled and crazy for me.

[Cumulus]

Hi, lc74, the 85% was just a number I used because my friend first expressed it to me. It represents the idea that when we lived together I felt the relationship was going along ok most of the time. This became a big issue after we separated as I dealt with the thought, is this marriage really that bad? Most of the time we get along well and we have a long history of shared life together. Shouldn't I go back and make this work? It really pulled at me that I thought I should. It was close to two years after the separation and divorce that I finally came to realize that our marriage followed the very typical abusive relationship pattern. It was a   moment. I am strong and capable, not bad in the smarts department, how could I have been an abused woman? Well because I looked at this 85% and decided that was enough. I see this mentioned throughout this board from time to time when people say they are going back, the BPD partner is repentant and they remember the idealized and for me, deceptive 85%. There are a lot of reasons for staying in a relationship, I stayed many years and although I have some regrets now, at the time I felt I was doing the right thing, and I was for that time.

Tausk and cimbaruns, I agree, the standards for good were distorted. If there was no yelling, no put downs, no created angst, no embittering conversations , that was good. We were walking parallel roads in life, along side each other but different paths and ultimately different goals. That I didn't see. And I didn't see that the 85% that I thought was good was most likely when he was creating outside diversions, other women, gambling, life style changes etc.

I did in many ways become his parent, feeling the need to guide and explain. A partner relationship can not grow under those circumstances. Intimacy began to feel incestuous.

[Cumulus]

Oh a PS, LC 74. Thank you for posting re characteristics of a healthy relationship. I have been in a new relationship now for about eight months. It is healthy and I checked in with that post several times. Having no previous healthy relationship to compare to I have found this article very helpful in helping me assess.

[Tausk]

Intimacy began to feel incestuous.

I like that.  I'm probably going to steal it.  Apologies ahead of time.

In addition for me, intimacy also began to feel pedophilic.    Especially with the sex.   For her, it was a need and it was a validation that I wouldn't leave.  And it was an offering from her that did not mean the same as a sharing bond for me.

Yes, it was like caring for a young daughter with emotional issues.  It's how mothers with special needs kids get wrapped into the lives of the children and losing themselves.  Only, for them, they are actually with kids and the mother.

[Learning_curve74]

Tausk and cimbaruns, I agree, the standards for good were distorted. If there was no yelling, no put downs, no created angst, no embittering conversations , that was good. We were walking parallel roads in life, along side each other but different paths and ultimately different goals. That I didn't see. And I didn't see that the 85% that I thought was good was most likely when he was creating outside diversions, other women, gambling, life style changes etc.

I did in many ways become his parent, feeling the need to guide and explain. A partner relationship can not grow under those circumstances. Intimacy began to feel incestuous.

Thanks for posting this Cumulus. It does bring up more questions for me, very importantly the parts about walking parallel roads but being on different paths with different goals. I'm so unsure of this between me and my pwBPD. I also question the good times that seem calm as to whether she is cheating or lining up guys behind my back. I know that I can't ever be sure after the original betrayals, so it's something I feel like I'm constantly assessing.

I wonder that when you said the 85% was fictional, then that actually means you came to the conclusion that your BPD relationship was much less than 85% "good" then, right? Was there a particular moment of enlightenment for you?

[fromheeltoheal]

Interesting Cumulus.  I never put percentages on it, since for me it's subjective and the bad outweighed the good by a huge margin, which was enough for me; I guess that would mean the bad was greater than 50%

So I guess the question I am left with is by the very nature of BPD is it possible to have a non abusive relationship with a partner who remains untreated and suffers from this psychological disorder.

No, it's not.  In a thread yesterday someone quoted their therapist who said: the reality of a borderline is to have power over their partner, not a partnership of autonomous personal powers, and the aim is to dominate and control with abuse as necessary.  That reality destroys any chance of intimacy and trust, and is so deeply embedded in the personality disorder that a borderline is neither aware of it or capable of changing it.  Being on the receiving end of that sucks, as we know; congratulations to us on our escape.

[myself]

I have no doubt she loved me. Also have no doubt she abused me, because of how she felt about control/being out of control. The days I could have said we were above 85%, that was only my perspective. From hers, having heard her describe how she felt, it was much less. She was always anxious inside, always ready to run. When you're seeing your r/s as such a small percentage, it's no wonder pwBPD look for someone else, thinking something better may be out there. Instead of raising the percentage, it gets erased. Once I knew how low the actual numbers were, that the trust was gone and too much damage done, I've been working on my own better options without her.

[Cumulus]

Hi heeltoheal, I agree, my feeling is that it is not possible to have a non abusive relationship with a pwBPD. I respect those who have remained in the relationship with their borderline partner for whatever reason and work to set up boundaries and create the best possible life for themselves and their families. As difficult as it was to separate, how much more difficult to stay. I feel a freedom at this time in my life that has not been present since my teens.

Hi again LC. I am one of those totally committed people, if I say I'll do it, it will get done. If I say I do, it's for a lifetime. I soon knew my partner was not an easy man, he was difficult. He was obstinate, rude to me and often threatening. I appeased him, think Edith Bunker. I hid things from him that might upset him, grocery bills, trouble the kids got into at school etc.  It is like water eroding rock, the rock changes but if you were with it every day you wouldn't notice. That happened to me, I eroded and at the end when I saw where I was and had the time to remember where I started I no longer recognized myself. But I didn't notice the loss of self when I was married. Appeasing came easily after several years and I was able for the most part to keep him calm. I didn't realize at what cost to myself. I lost my ability to feel, to cry or to be angry. The stepford wives come to mind.   So, I thought I was holding him together because he was mostly calm. It was after we separated that I realized he was able to be calm at home because he was acting out away from home. He precipitated many crisis but the last one involved our adult children, that was the straw. I think it was also because I was at a point of brokenness. Up to that time I couldn't admit to myself that I was unable to deal with something. Whatever it was I could handle it and look after it. After the last crisis he looked at me and said, but aren't we going to get through this together? I had just run out of energy, it was either separate and save myself or he would have pulled me past all chance of ever regaining myself.

So, the long answer is the 85% I thought good, was a myth but I didn't know that until I got out.

I understand about the betrayals. I like that word instead of affair or cheating. I did have an investigation done. It helped me. It helped me to finally see that even through the good times there was lie after lie. It was all just shifting sand.

[clairedair]

And with eyes open I see this pattern of abuse now where I didn't previously.

In some ways, I found seeing this pattern more difficult for a time than being in the fog and dealing with the pain and drama.  It has made me questions my entire adult life as we were together from late teens.  About 15 months on from our final break-up, I am still finding out that some 'truths' of my life are not true at all though I am much better able to deal with these revelations as my view of my exH and who he was has changed.  T

I told someone the other day that I have been struggling all these months not because I was grieving his absence (he had come and gone several times and I was used to life on my own);  I was however grieving the man I thought he was and also mourning the relationship I thought we had.

Having my eyes opened has been incredibly painful but it does mean that I am now seeing life and its possibilities in a new and better way.  No more shifting sand and eroding rock!

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi heeltoheal, I agree, my feeling is that it is not possible to have a non abusive relationship with a pwBPD. I respect those who have remained in the relationship with their borderline partner for whatever reason and work to set up boundaries and create the best possible life for themselves and their families. As difficult as it was to separate, how much more difficult to stay. I feel a freedom at this time in my life that has not been present since my teens.

I respect them too.  For me it wouldn't matter how strong my boundaries were, and they were getting stronger with time, it would still be a continuous fight against control and domination with no resolution to anything ever.  Could I protect myself from the onslaught?  Sure, but life doesn't need to be that difficult, distant and cold.

[ucmeicu2]

So I guess the question I am left with is by the very nature of BPD is it possible to have a non abusive relationship with a partner who remains untreated and suffers from this psychological disorder.

No, it's not.  In a thread yesterday someone quoted their therapist who said: the reality of a borderline is to have power over their partner, not a partnership of autonomous personal powers, and the aim is to dominate and control with abuse as necessary.  That reality destroys any chance of intimacy and trust, and is so deeply embedded in the personality disorder that a borderline is neither aware of it or capable of changing it.  Being on the receiving end of that sucks, as we know; congratulations to us on our escape.

i wonder what the credentials and specialty are of that T?

i've been told/read that unless a T is one who specializes in treatment of BPD, staying current on cutting edge info, to basically take what they say with a grain of salt.  there is still so much stigma attached to BPD and unfortunately a lot of it is perpetuated by uneducated therapists, counselors, etc.

icu2

[fromheeltoheal]

So I guess the question I am left with is by the very nature of BPD is it possible to have a non abusive relationship with a partner who remains untreated and suffers from this psychological disorder.

No, it's not.  In a thread yesterday someone quoted their therapist who said: the reality of a borderline is to have power over their partner, not a partnership of autonomous personal powers, and the aim is to dominate and control with abuse as necessary.  That reality destroys any chance of intimacy and trust, and is so deeply embedded in the personality disorder that a borderline is neither aware of it or capable of changing it.  Being on the receiving end of that sucks, as we know; congratulations to us on our escape.

i wonder what the credentials and specialty are of that T?

i've been told/read that unless a T is one who specializes in treatment of BPD, staying current on cutting edge info, to basically take what they say with a grain of salt.  there is still so much stigma attached to BPD and unfortunately a lot of it is perpetuated by uneducated therapists, counselors, etc.

icu2

Dunno ucme.  Here's the thread; I got a lot of value out of it and it rang true for me: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=220288.msg12398248#msg12398248