Is gas-lighting subconscious or deliberate?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Towards the end of the relationship I could see a 'gas light' episode a mile off. Or situations where she'd attempt to set me up for certain failure. Loose/loose kind of stuff!

Is this something planned & premeditated?

Or do they do it subconsciously & their irritation/anger/upset or whatever, is a result of their genuine surprise when it kicks off?

[Moonie75]

Towards the end of the relationship I could see a 'gas light' episode a mile off. Or situations where she'd attempt to set me up for certain failure. Loose/loose kind of stuff!

Is this something planned & premeditated?

Or do they do it subconsciously & their irritation/anger/upset or whatever, is a result of their genuine surprise when it kicks off?

[Allmessedup]

In my newbie opinion I believe it is subconscious.

For my ex gas lighting would most often cone in the form of her saying something I never said.   It made me think I was entirely crazy.

However I think that the disorder made her think that is exactly what I said.  It was what she HEARD as a result of her past trauma.

And the times she denied saying things I know full well she said I suspect were either a result of diassociation on her part or a reaction to not being able to see any fault in her own behavior... Again the disorder.

I do not think it was premeditated.  She really did want me to be her white knight(ress).

But that could also never be allowed no matter what I did or didn't do.  The disorder won't allow it

[Tincup]

Moonie-I could also see them a mile away, and hated them.  I did get a chance when we were talking about getting back together during the last recycle to ask her specific questions about gas-lighting and other stuff that bothered me.  She honestly didn't seem to have any memory of it.  Another thing that fascinated me was all the times that she broke up with me she honestly said she didn't want to.  She would just get so mad that she not only could not control herself, but had no recollection of what she had actually said.  Almost like a blackout.  Not sure if I actually believe her, but it could explain how she remembers things (rages) completely differently than I did.  It is like someone takes over her body.

[myself]

It starts in the disorder, then becomes intentional as a cover up.

By making it worse they somehow feel they're not accountable    .

It's like living through filibusters of pain, blame, and shame.

[Skip]

Moonie, what do you mean by gas light episode?  Can you give a few examples of this type of episode  / plotting in your relationship?

The term originates from a moving where one partner has a clever and well planned out series of events that he executes in a effort to have a women doubt her own sanity.

Did your ex have any carefully planned multifaceted plots designed to make you question your sanity or something like this?

[DiamondSW]

My ex gas-lit on purpose. 

I remember endless arguments about having children (the moment she turned 30) and me saying i'd like them one day but couldn't afford them now.  She twisted this to i'd never wanted them and she was wasting her time with me.  I began to wonder whether she ever listened to me or just lived on a different planet -nothing sensible ever 'sunk' in to her mind, certainly nothing financial or involving responsibility...

[Skip]

For my ex gas lighting would most often cone in the form of her saying something I never said.   It made me think I was entirely

And the times she denied saying things I know full well she said I suspect were either a result of diassociation on her part or a reaction to not being able to see any fault in her own behavior... Again the disorder.

When two people are caught up in a cycle of conflict there tends to be a lot of triggering.  This is not a BPD thing - we all do it.  

For example, lets say there is a reoccurring conflict about my partners drinking with her saying she drinks moderately and me constantly trying to get her to stop. Lets say this has been going on for months.  One day I pick her up and she gets in the car with a glass of clear fluid.  I then say "is that alcohol" and she replies "none of your f- business".

Two weeks later we discuss the event.  Her recollection is that I said "your drinking again  I'm sick of it".  My recollection is "you were drinking last weekend and tried to hide it.  

In reality it was a glass of water.

Gottman theorized a 4 stage process where he describes how couples in conflict have a progressive deterioration in their ability to speak and listen to each other.  Both people are responsible.  88% of the marriages that get to stage 4 break up.

I believe this principle is called the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

[Moonie75]

Moonie, what do you mean by gas light episode?  Can you give a few examples of this type of episode  / plotting in your relationship?

The term originates from a moving where one partner has a clever and well planned out series of events that he executes in a effort to have a women doubt her own sanity.

Did your ex have any carefully planned multifaceted plots designed to make you question your sanity or something like this?

One example is... . We were sat at the dinner table one evening after finishing our dinner. She mentioned that she hadn't had time to clean out the rabbits hutch that day & change its bedding. She then asked me if I would do it while she cleared the dinner table? I agreed and went outside to sort the childrens rabbit. I returned indoors 10 or 15 minutes later to find the table cleared & my ex watching tv. I washed my hands & sat down to watch tv with her. All seemed well until I became aware that she was not happy about something.

I asked her what was the matter? She exploded into a fury that, after she had cooked a dinner for us all, I wasn't even grateful enough to clear the table for her! She went into a long sermon about how I wasn't pulling my weight etc.

It made no difference that id been cleaning the rabbit hutch out because she'd had to ask me to do it! I would've cleared the table without a single mention, but didn't know about the rabbit hutch till she asked me to sort it.

I believe that she stopped me from doing something she knew I would do automatically, by asking me to do something I didn't know needed doing. That way I hadn't done the table clearing & could be punished. And cleaning the rabbit out didn't count because I had to be asked!

If I'd refused to sort the rabbit & insisted on clearing the table. I'd have still been in trouble for not sorting the childrens rabbit!

Loose /loose is how I see that situation. Set up to fail whichever way? She went nuts about this & I found myself disorientated, questioning whether I was at fault.

[Skip]

From your description it sounds like she felt you weren't pulling your weight in the relationship. She was worn out a falling behind. Because things were so far behind she had to cook and cleanup after.  Your cleaning of the cage was too little to late.  

You weren't hearing her.  She wasn't hearing you.

Classic Gottman.  Early stages of communication breaking down.

The later stages include a stage of contempt. Onvee a relationship gets to this stage thing are pretty bleak.

This deterioration of communication is not a BPD thing.  It happens in all types of relationship - it can be really damaging in codependent relationships that reach the stage where the codependent partner cares far more about holding the relationship together than the other party and accepts the contempt...

A lot of us stayed in and tried to hold things together far too long.  Bad boundaries.

What was her interpretation of the events?

[Moonie75]

What was her interpretation of the events?

Regarding the rabbit/clearing table situation, her interpretation of events was... . That she had told me about the rabbit hutch during the afternoon, and that I had deliberately waited till right after dinner to do it so I could get out of clearing the table. She said that she had had to ask me for the second time to sort the rabbit, while we sat at the table, and did not expect me to then use it as an excuse to leave clearing the table to her!

I absolutely with 100% certainty know, that she asked me for the first time about the rabbit, at the table. And, that she clearly offered to clear the table while I sorted the rabbit, so both tasks were getting done at the same time & we could get sat down together sooner. I can still remember her saying as I type now!

[Moonie75]

This was the first argument we had and was probably three or four months into the relationship. I've always remembered it as the event which closed the relationships 'honeymoon' phase. It wasn't the total end of idealization, but certainly took the icing off the top & it slowly deteriorated from this point on.

We had a kind of thing where in my place I cooked for us, and in her place she cooked for us. I had always cleared the table after eating at her place. There was no reason I'm aware of to believe I wouldn't have done it this night too!

I believe it was more than a breakdown of communication.

Do you Skip?

[nolisan]

Wow Moonie - how do you spell "crazy making".

I had one example of deliberate gaslighting or maybe it is just better termed manipulation.

She had a sudden idea that "our solution for happiness" was for me to sell my house and buy hers. Hers was small and claustrophobic (for me) - mine was twice the size. She used every angle imaginable (mine had bad feng shui, bad air quality, bad resale, bad location, bad everything) I was starting to believe her and was seriously considering her idea.

Then I had a dream on night - I had bought her house, sold mine and moved in. Then she ran away back to her husband.

Well I balked at buying her house ... . then she moved back in with her hubi and abandoned her house. Thank god.

[Moonie75]

It happens in all types of relationship - it can be really damaging in codependent relationships that reach the stage where the codependent partner cares far more about holding the relationship together than the other party and accepts the contempt...

A lot of us stayed in and tried to hold things together far too long.  Bad boundaries.

I can definitely relate to this.

I did realize that I cared about holding the relationship together far more then my ex. And yes, i did accept the contempt that came my way. It was very reluctantly that I accepted it, but i did none the less! I should have walked away a lot sooner than I did, years sooner!

[mother in law]

Skip is this more like gas lighting?  Ex dil hits husband and gd witnesses this.  That night ex dil texts husband to say that I had hit her father too.

Now to put it in context her father lives in another country does not speak the same language is inches shorter Than me is deaf so doesn't enter conversations and I have only met him a handful of times always in mixed company so the chance and reason to hit him is zero.

When challenged on it she said she didn't say it but I had hit her. Also not true.

I was initially hurt but then decided to see some humor in it!

[Pearl55]

Yes Moonie gas lighting is deliberate. It has proven to me and don't forget they enjoy doing it. They are very sick!

[DiamondSW]

I agree with Pearl.

It IS deliberate... . and they know what they're doing.

My BPD exgf told me twice near the end of our relationship that rather than catch the train an hr home at midnight, I could stay with her for the night and just walk back to her room.  So I did, wasn't a hard decision and gave me more money (no train fare) to spend on us both that evening.  Simple life and being sensible.

But 2 days later she told me that i'd been 'disrespectful' to stay and force myself in her 'space' and she'd totally forgotten that she offered me to stay.  She also forgot the fact that we had 2 really nice evenings together and I slept on an airbed and couldn't have been more respectful.  I gave her a hug in the morning and she told me she loved me and 'wanted to be like this forever'... .  

To say I was confused, exasperated and fed up would be an understatement -she honestly believed i'd forced myself upon her and was sexually giving her indecent 'non christian' thoughts -all my fault.

What a horrible way to behave -I felt like an abuser the way she treated me.  (btw, it was her cousin and mum, NOT me)

[StillAlive]

Hello,

I do not know if anything I have to add is relevant but I hope to help.

In therapy I was told that those with borderline personality disorder are very fragile individuals. Those afflicted with this disorder will attempt to protect themselves from dealing with reality. This is accomplished, at least as I was told, by projecting hurtful thoughts and feelings onto their non-BPD partner. The result is that, at a conscious level, the BPDer is fully convinced their own projections are absolutely true. Their projections will continue to change as their their emotions erratically flip around with time. This is why anyone diagnosed as being BPD are able to go through life guilt free for the abuse they inflict on other people. This behavior rises from a distortion in how they think. We do not have these thought distortions which is why a normal person by comparison would have to make deliberate conscious decisions to gaslight. This is why that, of the 157 disorders in the DSM, BPD is the most notorious for making their abused partners feel manipulated. Those with BPD do believe that they're telling the truth and not twisting history around.

Please keep in mind that I'm not speaking from a position of authority... .

I cannot possibly hope to understand what went through the minds of some of these people who gaslight and I do not want to somehow minimize or contest the different experiences shared.

[GlitterBug]

My relationship with my life long best friend has broken down as a result of her BPD.

She has cut me out and painted me black and I fully believe this is the end if out friendship.

I've been reading through to try and find answers to some of my questions.

Looking back now I can see that she would try and 'gas light' quite often; she would ask for something unreasonable or being overly demanding; she would be relentless in her request (almost like a child that's says 'why' repeatedly)- eventually the situation became wearing and I would say something like 'well I'm not doing it right now' (I wouldn't shout but I would be firm) and that's it! The rage starts by telling me I'm being argument I've and shouting and being unreasonable.

I try in vain to explain I wasn't being unreasonable but her continuing to go on is tiring- I can no longer get a word in as she's screaming over me and telling me she not listening to me and I have no valid point to make and that I wanted the argument.

She blocked me and has told me she doesn't want me in her life and that I've made her mental health worse, that I'm spiteful and evil, unable to take accountability and I will be alone forever.

She claims I said awful things to her and lost my temper even though I wasn't able to say a word over her shouting.

I knew she had been having a tough time for a while and I'd fine my best to make sure she was ok- but I can't help but feel that her anger boiled up and it was a time bomb waiting to go off.

She's done similar things before where she has gas lot, we've gone NC for weeks or months and I'm always the one to instigate reconciliation and she tells me she's sorry and I didn't deserve it; this time seems different though- this time she seems thoroughly convinced I'm an awful person who set out to hurt her.

Although it's hard to lose my life long best friend, I really don't feel I'll ever get over the things she's said and how cruel she has been.

It's comforting to know that the 'gas-lit' behaviour is recognised because I thought I was going crazy thinking maybe I did start this argument or maybe I did say something terrible but now I know it can be BP- still, it doesn't make moving on any easier.