Update on exBPD - Could Use Some Advice

[Lamaiel]

My exBPD contacted me today for the first time in several weeks today.  Our initial breakup after a 6 month r/s happened suddenly, out of the blue, with no chance at any sort of reconciliation.  No compromise, no negotiation... . the typical behavior seen in a BPD.  Before the break up, we had spent the last 21 days straight together in some capacity.  It was amazing.

This was her reason for breaking up with me initially:

The most aggravating thing for me was her reason for the relationship ending:  I wasn't taking the r/s seriously. She has been insistent about this during the breakup and the one time we met up afterwards.  Her reality was so much different than mine. I was caring for her when she was sick, reading her favorite books to get to know her better, doing research on her other health issues, using my connections to help her find a new job, meeting her parents, and was starting to plan a vacation and a trip to meet my extended family.  A 30 year old man cried in front of her when she broke up with me... . no one has seen me cry since childhood.  I told her she was the most important person in my life!   And still she says "I was a convenience to you", and that I have "commitment issues"... She also blamed the bad winter weather, that we never did anything, that I was too much of "salesperson" in front of her parents.  All of these excuses were nonsensical, untrue, and completely confusing

We started speaking today, and again got on the topic about why she ended it.  Today she switched her reasoning about why she broke up with me.  Now she said "Well you were clearly committed to me, I can see that now" (even though that was her previous reason for the break up), and now used completely different excuses like "you blew off my concerns every time I brought them up (never)", "you were selective about the complaints I voiced to you (no)", and "you listened to my personal complaints, but you pretended not to listen when I voiced concerns about us (BS)", and "something wasn't there" (since when? we spent every day together).  Basically, when I presented irrefutable evidence a particular reason was not reality, she just switched the reason to something else.

I also called her out on the replacement she said didn't exist, and of course she completely ignored that line of questioning.

I guess my question is:  What is the reason behind this behavior from a BPD perspective?  What defense mechanism is she invoking when she creates all these excuses?  Can anyone else relate to this?  Do I need to chalk this up as simply not being able to relate to someone with a serious mental illness?  Trying to make the illogical logical?

[seeking balance]

I guess my question is:  What is the reason behind this behavior from a BPD perspective?  What defense mechanism is she invoking when she creates all these excuses?  Can anyone else relate to this?  Do I need to chalk this up as simply not being able to relate to someone with a serious mental illness?  Trying to make the illogical logical?

I think the best way to learn about BPD as a disorder is to apply the facts to it as opposed to being spoon fed experiences.  Let's take each of your questions and work through them - hopefully others will join in.

Your Question 1 - What is the reason behind this behavior from a BPD perspective? 

Look at this article - https://bpdfamily.com/tools/articles3.htm

The DSM IV - used this criteria (different criteria for DSM V (more of a spectrum), you can use that list in the article if you prefer).

* Intense fears of abandonment

* A pattern of unstable relationships

* Unstable self-image

* Impulsive and self-destructive behaviors

* Suicidal behavior or self-injury

* Wide mood swings

* Chronic feelings of emptiness

* Inappropriate anger

* Periods of paranoia and loss of contact with reality

So, where might you put that behavior on this list and why?

[Mutt]

Today she switched her reasoning about why she broke up with me.  Now she said "Well you were clearly committed to me, I can see that now" (even though that was her previous reason for the break up), and now used completely different excuses like "you blew off my concerns every time I brought them up (never)", "you were selective about the complaints I voiced to you (no)", and "you listened to my personal complaints, but you pretended not to listen when I voiced concerns about us (BS)", and "something wasn't there" (since when? we spent every day together).  Basically, when I presented irrefutable evidence a particular reason was not reality, she just switched the reason to something else.

If you re-read what you posted Lamaiel about your ex, that I quoted, can you see any similarities in this article and apply it your first question?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0

Projection is a defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.  Projection is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them, often in an accusing way,  to someone else.

Can you see where it falls into the DMS IV criteria that seeking balance posted?

What would trigger her to turn things around?

[Lamaiel]

Hey nice to hear from you two.  I'm going to enjoy the first 70 degree day we've had in months, sit on my porch, and enjoy this Oberon beer while I answer this question.

SB, I'm quite familiar with the DSM criteria and see your point with applying the facts to the criteria.  In terms of general behavior, she meets 1,2,3,4,5 (cutting), 6,and 8.  7 and 9 could apply, but I'm taking a conservative approach if you will.  Now that was easy.

How do I apply these criteria to this particular situation?  Much more difficult for me!

I think perhaps abandonment, as she is using defense mechanisms to rationalize breaking up with a guy who may abandon her if he gets too close.

Unstable relationships?  Well she has those, but don't see that applies here

Self-image - should we bring 2010 into this conversation?

Self harm - no

Impulsive behaviors - no

Mood swings - perhaps indirectly; I know the emotional lability is related to devaluation and a sense of abandonment

Feels of emptiness- she needs a new attachment to regain a sense of self?

Anger - no

Paranoia - no

As you can see I need some help here

[fromheeltoheal]

Do I need to chalk this up as simply not being able to relate to someone with a serious mental illness?  Trying to make the illogical logical?  Yep.

Learning about the disorder and how it applies to our exes, and also realizing that other disorders like NPD can and often are present as well, comorbid as it's called, and seeing if the DSM criteria fits can be very beneficial in our understanding of what happened, and more becomes clear with time as we learn, detach, process and remember things in a new light. 

And in addition to all of that, it has been very helpful to me to see my ex as a young child emotionally.  Young children have rapid mood swings, they aren't expected to be responsible or make sense, have rational conversations, be accountable, or always tell the truth, and we cut them slack for it because they're young.  It's difficult to see our exes that way, they certainly don't look like it and can parrot adult pretty well, plus we thought we were dating an adult and wanted to be, but that shift has made a lot make sense to me.

And of course, after a while of figuring all of that out, the focus necessarily shifts to us, and why, in the face of ample evidence to the contrary, did we stay around anyway?  Chasing our hopes and dreams and wanting it to work, sure, blindsided by someone with a mental illness who pulled a bait and switch on us, sure, but is there something deeper?  Did something about her touch something about us that sparked an unhealthy addiction?  Fertile field for growth there.  Take care of you!

[irishmarmot]

Hi, I was in an intense 4 month r/s and now i am almost 3 months out NC and can now see feel so much better.  The behavior that you are trying to make logical sense of is just part of her illness.   The reasons are pretty much speculation on your part and she probably doesnt really know herself.  Take some time for yourself and keep posting here.  I have found it very helpful.

[Lamaiel]

Projection is a psychological defense mechanism.  When anyone (not just people with BPD) is dealing with emotions they cannot handle, sometimes it is a relief to "project" those feelings onto someone else

Projection is a defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.  Projection is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them, often in an accusing way,  to someone else

Commonly the projection is an exaggeration of something that has a basis in reality. For example, the borderline may accuse you of "hating" them when you just feel irritated. Sometimes the projection may come entirely from their imagination: for example, they accuse you of flirting when you were just asking for directions to the shoe department. ~ Randi Kreger

Mutt, I understand the concept of projection, but still have difficulty applying it to my situation and perhaps detecting it when it occurs.  It's scary to me how subtle it can be and even more frightening that they believe these projections without a doubt.  Lets go through these:

"you blew off my concerns every time I brought them up"  - She rarely brought up concerns.  I asked her to give me more detail about this and she had none.  Any concerns she had I feel like I addressed, beyond that I can't think of any  Did she blow off my concerns?  Well she never cared what my concerns were in general.

"you listened to my personal complaints, but you pretended not to listen when I voiced concerns about us" - she rarely communicated concerns, and she wont tell me what they are!

"something wasn't there" - We rarely fought, the only thing that wasn't there was her during her emotional lability, the silent treatments, etc. 

It seems when she cant rationalize a question or behavior I call her out on, she ignores it.  (example: How can you say how much you care about me and have a new replacement 2 weeks later)

Can you see where it falls into the DMS IV criteria that seeking balance posted?

What would trigger her to turn things around

?

Unstable self image?  She is completely ashamed by her behavior, (the sudden breakup, the new replacement) and the projection is the defensive mechanism to rationalize that behavior?  Rationalize why she left me suddenly for my replacement?

Your last question I do not understand Mutt

[seeking balance]

Hey nice to hear from you two.  I'm going to enjoy the first 70 degree day we've had in months, sit on my porch, and enjoy this Oberon beer while I answer this question.

SB, I'm quite familiar with the DSM criteria and see your point with applying the facts to the criteria.  In terms of general behavior, she meets 1,2,3,4,5 (cutting), 6,and 8.  7 and 9 could apply, but I'm taking a conservative approach if you will.  Now that was easy.

How do I apply these criteria to this particular situation?  Much more difficult for me!

I think perhaps abandonment, as she is using defense mechanisms to rationalize breaking up with a guy who may abandon her if he gets too close.

Unstable relationships?  Well she has those, but don't see that applies here

Self-image - should we bring 2010 into this conversation?

Self harm - no

Impulsive behaviors - no

Mood swings - perhaps indirectly; I know the emotional lability is related to devaluation and a sense of abandonment

Feels of emptiness- she needs a new attachment to regain a sense of self?

Anger - no

Paranoia - no

As you can see I need some help here

So, your question as I understand it from a BPD perspective:

Why did she breakup with you telling you that it was because you were not serious enough, yet now she says she can tell you were serious... .

Is this the question?

[winston72]

Hey Lamaiel, you have some great responses here and references to some terrific resources.  I experienced some very similar communication patterns in my relationship, and they were really difficult to sort out.  Projection can be quite confusing.  Perhaps I can offer what I "hear" her saying:

"I blew off your concerns whenever you brought them up."

"I listened to your complaints, but I did not really listen when you voiced concerns about us."

"Something was not there for me with you."

As SB highlighted in her last post, perhaps the key insight here is to take what she says at face value without needing to "solve" it or fit it into a logical sequence of thought.  Her words to your were contradictory... . you were not serious/you are serious.  Can you have a stable relationship with someone who thinks like this? 

[Mutt]

And of course, after a while of figuring all of that out, the focus necessarily shifts to us, and why, in the face of ample evidence to the contrary, did we stay around anyway?  Chasing our hopes and dreams and wanting it to work, sure, blindsided by someone with a mental illness who pulled a bait and switch on us, sure, but is there something deeper?  Did something about her touch something about us that sparked an unhealthy addiction?  Fertile field for growth there.  Take care of you!

Spot on. Crazy making behavior on my part. I kept doing the exact same thing, expecting different results, and hoping that things would eventually work out.

Mutt, I understand the concept of projection, but still have difficulty applying it to my situation and perhaps detecting it when it occurs.  It's scary to me how subtle it can be and even more frightening that they believe these projections without a doubt.

Yes I agree. It took me a long time to see it with my ex. Once that I started picking up on it, it gets easier over time. I will give you example with my ex.

S2 when he is with me on my time, will often say that he does not want to go and see mom. If I take out of the apartment, to take him to daycare, or out, sometimes he says "me no go see mom". My D8 has said that he cries for me often, when the kids are with mom.

I had told my ex, that S2 is saying that he doesn't want to go back home, I sense that he that you are not paying attention to him.

My ex's response "he does the exact same thing with me"

It hit me the day afterwards, but I know what the truth is, the source is coming from what I see, and my daughter has said that he cries for me, S2 also says that he misses me when he's with me.

She was projecting. What feelings triggered her to say that? She probably felt shame, guilt from my statement. I pick it up quickly on phone conversations, and when I talk to her in person now, but it took time.

even more frightening that they believe these projections without a doubt.

If it's operating unconsciously, and if I was the one projecting, how would I believe something without a doubt that I was not aware of?

Projection is a defense mechanism, operating unconsciously,

Your last question I do not understand Mutt

Her projection was triggered by something. She's feeling anxiety and stress. Probably from a loss of an attachment / fear of abandonment. Something triggered that fear of abandonment. I'm not a professional, this is my interpretation from what I am reading.

[Lamaiel]

So, your question as I understand it from a BPD perspective:

Why did she breakup with you telling you that it was because you were not serious enough, yet now she says she can tell you were serious... .

Is this the question?

Yes indeed.  The initial reason for the breakup was "I don't think you were taking the relationship seriously", "You have commitment issues", and "I thought I was a convenience for you".  Everything revolved around this... . we spent 2 hours going over there.

I presented very logical facts to her to counteract this, and now the response was "Lamaiel, it wasn't that you weren't committed, you clearly were".  Then she stated her new reasons for the breakup, again not based in my reality.

[Lamaiel]

I also want to quickly interject and mentioned the appreciation I have for all the support and advice you folks are providing me and others here.  It is selfless and generous, the antithesis of what most of deal with in regards to our exBPDs.  I want to eventually be a contributing resource to this community; I can only hope I can offer up as much as you guys do on a daily basis.

[seeking balance]

So, your question as I understand it from a BPD perspective:

Why did she breakup with you telling you that it was because you were not serious enough, yet now she says she can tell you were serious... .

Is this the question?

Yes indeed.  The initial reason for the breakup was "I don't think you were taking the relationship seriously", "You have commitment issues", and "I thought I was a convenience for you".  Everything revolved around this... . we spent 2 hours going over there.

I presented very logical facts to her to counteract this, and now the response was "Lamaiel, it wasn't that you weren't committed, you clearly were".  Then she stated her new reasons for the breakup, again not based in my reality.

I am going to tell you something that my T said to me:  ":)o you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

As Winston stated, Her words and actions were contradictory - does it even matter if there is a BPD label or not to put on it?  At the end of the day, this is not someone that sounds like you would want to have a relationship with, does it?

I can understand your frustration, I have gone in circles trying to be rational with someone who is not capable of being rational in an emotional situation... . BPD or not... . that going in circles is crazy making in its own right, don't you think - insanity, doing the same things over and over expecting different results; we do get the power to stop and let go.

Regarding BPD bahavior - Mutt gave you a really good explanation.  If you want to take it to the next level - pick up the book "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me"  will give you even more of an explanation.

[Mutt]

I presented very logical facts to her to counteract this, and now the response was "Lamaiel, it wasn't that you weren't committed, you clearly were".  Then she stated her new reasons for the breakup, again not based in my reality.

You're like me. I'm a person that reasons with logic and I used to do that with my ex. I've had many, many disagreements and fights with her, because I had to be right, what you are saying makes no logical sense.

I set the bar too high, and I'm expecting too much out of her.

She doesn't think like me, she thinks differently. I had to accept that.

[myself]

She doesn't think like me, she thinks differently. I had to accept that.

Doesn't think, act, need, feel, or live the same, for so many of us.

again not based in my reality.

If you're confident of who you are and where you've been, stick with it.

She changes her story. May not be able to keep track of her stories.

Projects the confusion and avoids accountability.

When we see ourselves, not them, in the mirror, we're doing better.

[Lamaiel]

Regarding BPD bahavior - Mutt gave you a really good explanation.  If you want to take it to the next level - pick up the book "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me"  will give you even more of an explanation.

You underestimate me SB! It's already been read 

As Winston stated, Her words and actions were contradictory - does it even matter if there is a BPD label or not to put on it?  At the end of the day, this is not someone that sounds like you would want to have a relationship with, does it?

From the 5 boyfriends she has had in the last year and a half, to the sudden raging, to the idealization and devaluation, to the incredible emotional lability, to the relationship being all about her, to the lack of empathy, to the child sexual abuse and the subsequent denial and invalidation by the her parents, to the lack of being able to take any criticism, to finally the sudden break-up and immediate replacement.  It is all there for me to  say BPD.

That being said, why do I need a defined medical diagnosis to validate that she was not right for me?  She had incredible personality and behavioral flaws, regardless if you want to attribute it to BPD. She treated me like garbage, she was incredibly selfish, never apologized once in the r/s or took personal responsibility for her behaviors, and undeniably destroyed almost every boundary I had.  I was abused.

[fromheeltoheal]

That being said, why do I need a defined medical diagnosis to validate that she was not right for me?  You don't, although it can help make sense of the crazy and help you feel you're not alone.  And then putting all of the behaviors in the "unacceptable" category can validate our decision to stay away and is part of detaching.

[Lamaiel]

And of course, after a while of figuring all of that out, the focus necessarily shifts to us, and why, in the face of ample evidence to the contrary, did we stay around anyway?  Chasing our hopes and dreams and wanting it to work, sure, blindsided by someone with a mental illness who pulled a bait and switch on us, sure, but is there something deeper?  Did something about her touch something about us that sparked an unhealthy addiction?  Fertile field for growth there.  Take care of you!

This may be the most incredible part of the r/s for me: the subtle erosion of who I was as a person, the erosion of my values, my boundaries... . I couldn't understand until I stepped away from the r/s.  I no longer laughed, shot from the hip, I no longer made jokes, i walked on those eggshells... . I felt a shadow of myself at times.

I went into the r/s with what I believe were healthy boundaries, and those boundaries held strong through the idealization.  But once she devalued me (I remember that stunning screaming from the back of a taxi cab when I know she turned), the boundaries crumbled like nothing I've ever seen.

I sensed something was wrong even though it was my first relationship.  Many of my actions were moves made specifically to merely save the r/s, not strengthen it.  I let her take control, I let those boundaries fall apart, I accepted that everything in the r/s was my fault, I never sought confrontation or conflict with her, I never argued or complained, and I never asked for ANYTHING in the r/s.  I did anything I could to make the r/s work, to make sure it didn't end, and she ran me over.

I need to look at myself and ask why.  Why am I not a healthy person?  A healthy individual would run away from this type of r/s and avoid it like the plague.  Why did I stay?

[fromheeltoheal]

I need to look at myself and ask why.  Why am I not a healthy person?  A healthy individual would run away from this type of r/s and avoid it like the plague.  Why did I stay?  Great questions, and the answers can be the gift of the relationship.  Cut yourself some slack too: one school of thought is that certain types of people are susceptible to borderlines, we've got a target on our back.  For me, I was lonely, naive and open hearted going in, those aren't traits of a mental illness or an unhealthy person, just one who needs to grow up and get more of a clue, but not anything unfixable, and I've entered a major growth spurt since I left her, better late than never.

[Trent]

Before the break up, we had spent the last 21 days straight together in some capacity.  It was amazing.

... .

I guess my question is:  What is the reason behind this behavior from a BPD perspective?  What defense mechanism is she invoking when she creates all these excuses?  Can anyone else relate to this? 

I've had similar experiences though my recycles with my uBPDexgf.  Once the idealization phase was over, we would be together for a while (sometimes months, sometimes weeks), then out of the blue something would trigger her and she would be creating conflict and push me out the door.  However, she only threw me out once (actually, I was already leaving at that time), but the other times she made it impossible for me to stay (but didn't throw me out), so once I finally got fed up and left she could, in her mind, remain the victim who was abandoned once again (continually recreating her childhood trauma?)

The only rationale that made sense to me was the idea of oscillation between the fear of abandonment and the fear of engulfment.  From my perspective, everything was going great.  She, however, was feeling suffocated, but couldn't express this except through destructive actions which led to the deterioration of the relationship.  Once I caught on to her cycles, I would often ask her if she needed me to give her some space, she would desperately cry "No don't leave!" but then, sometimes the very next day, proceed to destroy the relationship yet again.  Frustrating is an understatement

[Lamaiel]

I would actually like to ask one more question, a bit separate from the topic at hand.  I figured it more appropriate to add to this thread instead of starting another. I would enjoy your insight into this:

My exBPD dated someone seriously for 5 years, from age 18-23.  Apparently the relationship was stable, they had a couple break ups during the 5 years but nothing significant.  She suddenly broke up with him after these 5 years; apparently he became a jerk and became distant to her (who knows if that is the truth).  

She immediately dated a new guy for 3 months, broke up with him, immediately dated another guy for a month, dumped him, immediately dated me for 6 months, and then suddenly dumped me to starting dating another guy who she is with currently.

This long term r/s of 5 years seemingly does not jive with BPD behaviors, at least until the end.  We know BPD usually manifests in young adulthood.  Is it possible her BPD was triggered near the end of the 5 year r/s?  Her unstable relationships since then obviously scream BPD, but what about the long term relationship?  It stands out.

Thoughts?