Calculated manipulation and deviousness?

[Witchway]

Mine would call me by his ex's name (numerous occasions). He explained initially that it was a slip of the tounge and it was something he did? I gave him the benefit of the doubt... .On the third occasion I explained to him how much it upset me. But anyway... .that was my problem, so deal with it. According to him if I was upset it just showed I was insecure and jealous... .apparently.

After the 6th time (bearing in mind he never called anyone or anything else by the wrong name) I called him by my ex-husbands name, which he did not like. I told him 'whoops, it must be catching, and anyway it doesn't mean anything and if you feeling anything you're showing your insecurities, it's just a name, blah, blah blah.'  I did this again the next day. Funnily enough he never called me by his ex's name again.

[Infared]

My experience would be that my expwBPD ran off  with new supply and left me in our home feeding her cats and putting up our Xmas tree by myself... .completely clueless and shell shocked after living with her for 5 years and having great relations with her Mom and Dad.

She (They) then acted out in public (like 7th-graders) in a way to emotionally hurt me whenever they had the opprtunity (who pre-plans this kind of stuff?)... .and they were BOTH clearly getting some kind of sick enjoyment out of it. She would say things to me like "you better not hurt my cats!"... .which just broke my heart even more as I loved the little guys and shed tears when she took them... .I would never have hurt a hair on their little heads.

My experience is that my pwBPD was self-centered, cruel and abusive in a way that I have NEVER experienced before. ... .and one thing I will not do is sit here and make excuses for her like some of the people here who are obviously still suffering from the F.O.G. or a serious case of low self-esteem. (which I DO understand and have compassion for)... .

Wiff the coffee kids... .these people are BRUTAL!  

[Infared]

Mine would call me by his ex's name (numerous occasions). He explained initially that it was a slip of the tounge and it was something he did? I gave him the benefit of the doubt... .On the third occasion I explained to him how much it upset me. But anyway... .that was my problem, so deal with it. According to him if I was upset it just showed I was insecure and jealous... .apparently.

After the 6th time (bearing in mind he never called anyone or anything else by the wrong name) I called him by my ex-husbands name, which he did not like. I told him 'whoops, it must be catching, and anyway it doesn't mean anything and if you feeling anything you're showing your insecurities, it's just a name, blah, blah blah.'  I did this again the next day. Funnily enough he never called me by his ex's name again.

HIGH FIVE! 

[Popcorn71]

Mine would call me by his ex's name (numerous occasions). He explained initially that it was a slip of the tounge and it was something he did? I gave him the benefit of the doubt... .On the third occasion I explained to him how much it upset me. But anyway... .that was my problem, so deal with it. According to him if I was upset it just showed I was insecure and jealous... .apparently.

After the 6th time (bearing in mind he never called anyone or anything else by the wrong name) I called him by my ex-husbands name, which he did not like. I told him 'whoops, it must be catching, and anyway it doesn't mean anything and if you feeling anything you're showing your insecurities, it's just a name, blah, blah blah.'  I did this again the next day. Funnily enough he never called me by his ex's name again.

WOW mine did this too!  This was strange because I actually had the same first name as his ex wife so he called me by my first and middle name and 'accidentally' got the middle name wrong.  I did genuinely make the mistake of calling him my ex husband's name once and thinking back, that was when he stopped this stupid game.

[Conundrum]

these people are BRUTAL! 

Perhaps it's more precise to claim that abusive people are brutal. The statistical probability exists that many who remain undiagnosed will not meet the diagnostic criteria, yet still act brutally abusive? Therefore which "people" are they? Are the traits themselves indicia of abuse? By definition those traits seem to be almost morally nihilistic. Yet, as a spectrum disorder is it solely black and white? I think precise definitions are important when we make claims that dehumanize a class of people. History has taught us that when we objectify people (by dehumanizing them), any conduct becomes permissible. To a great extent, many will feel that they were entirely objectified in these relationships and therefore were reduced to objects. Should we employ the exact same mechanics?   

[goldylamont]

They are cold, devious, calculating, and act plain evil once you find out the secrets.

This is where I guess we just have different experiences. My ex did plenty of terrible things to me as well, but I wouldn't characterize her as cold, devious, nor calculating. If anything, she was overly emotional, impulsive, at times irrational, and struggled to think about the long term effects of her actions.

it's true that i think different people have different experiences. the things my ex did that were devious/calculating were very hard to uncover, but they were there. she was secretly recording our arguments on her phone, and the only way i found this out was by feeling some weird instinct during an argument, because i kept taking the higher road and diffusing the argument, walking away and giving her space. she kept following me from room to room and instigating more and more... then i noticed the phone. turned out she had been doing this for weeks. no way you can tell me this wasn't planned and calculated, and the worst thing isn't just that she wasn't secretly recording me--but as i suspected she was instigating arguments and then prodding me over and over and over to try and get me to react negatively so she could have... .evidence? sure, i know i know she was scared and acted out of fear/victimization. i understand her motives may have been rooted in insecurities or abandonment, but still literally making someone argue with you and getting even more pissed off at them *because* they remain calm, fair and try to walk away is simply messed up.

she also would accuse me in passive aggressive ways that i was physically domineering or scary to her. i don't know how many times she manipulated arguments, was emotionally abusive to me having her say, and then when i'd want to say something back or give my point of view she'd start shaking and crying, telling me to 'just leave, just leave, i can't take it'--like she was scared of me. damn. and i fell for it hook line and sinker. i'd suck it up and leave her alone god knows i didn't want to frighten her, so i'd leave without being able to say anything and this hurt terribly. i was walking around thinking i was carrying myself in an aggressive manner. so, Rise when i found out that she was FAKING this stance with fake crocodile tears; and was basically LAUGHING at me by how stupid i was to fall for her ploy--well, i think that's pretty evil in my eyes. making a man feel like he is being abusive and scary in his own home and then laughing behind his back because you 'won' the argument, pretty sick.

All in all, Rise, just understand that some of us did have to deal with these things. In order for you to understand where we are coming from, you'd have to remember some of the worst arguments you had with your ex--then imagine them laughing at you and thoroughly enjoying it. And i was with her for years and never could figure out how manipulative she was until after 4 years and after we broke up. Those of us that have had these realizations have another level of understanding and forgiveness to achieve. It starts out very bitter but honestly I can say I know I can reach the same level of detachment and forgiveness as anyone else, but it's important for those that were never manipulated to understand that those of us who were aren't simply crazy, overly-suspect people. many of us *know* from first hand experience. it's good to question ourselves and our suspicions but it's undeniable in many cases how devious pwBPD can be.

[drummerboy]

Great post conundrum. There seems to be a lot of gratuitous BPD bashing on these boards sometimes and I'm as guilty of it as anyone else. It's worth remembering that many of our ex's are undiagnosed. We've just read the list of the traits and given our own laymans diagnosis.

I can only speak from my experience. My ex was obviously a deeply troubled individual whom I strongly suspect suffers from BPD according to the list of traits. But if we are willing to label our ex's as BPD we must also accept that they are suffering from a mental illness and IMO a kind soul would not vilify someone with such a debilitating illness but rather pity them and ultimately forgive them. My ex was a good person who suffered terribly. I cannot have her constantly crisis filled existence in my life and the way she ended our relationship was not the action of any sort of person I want in my life. In time I have come to consider her not a bad or malicious person but rather a person who because of her illness suffers in a way that us nons will never have an understanding of. Hanging onto the anger is part of the grieving process but anger only hurts you. Eventually you find your peace by letting the anger go, the anger towards your ex and the anger we sometimes feel towards ourselves. I am convinced it is the only way forward.

these people are BRUTAL! 

Perhaps it's more precise to claim that abusive people are brutal. The statistical probability exists that many who remain undiagnosed will not meet the diagnostic criteria, yet still act brutally abusive? Therefore which "people" are they? Are the traits themselves indicia of abuse? By definition those traits seem to be almost morally nihilistic. Yet, as a spectrum disorder is it solely black and white? I think precise definitions are important when we make claims that dehumanize a class of people. History has taught us that when we objectify people (by dehumanizing them), any conduct becomes permissible. To a great extent, many will feel that they were entirely objectified in these relationships and therefore were reduced to objects. Should we employ the exact same mechanics?   

[Compassion14]

Infared, in the very short time I have been here your voice has sung out to me also. You capture and convey the very essence of the conversation and convey what is hovering in our hearts and minds... .what can be tricky to see as clearly as you state it. Thanks for sharing it as you see it.

Compassion14

[Take2]

As much as anger can hold some back... .realize also that feeling pity for someone who has done things to literally destroy others lives in retaliation for delusions... .well feeling pity has held me stuck for a very very long time... .As my world has experienced some pretty severe actions on the part of my ex.

yes I ache for whatever he went thru as a child and whatever causes him to be this way.

But I need to ache for ME more.  For whatever it was that caused ME to become the poster child for accepting abuse.  Me.  A once strong,  confident,  happy woman.

I own my issues.  And I NEED my anger to get away from someone who thinks that he needs to teach me a lesson for delusional thoughts... .

Great post conundrum. There seems to be a lot of gratuitous BPD bashing on these boards sometimes and I'm as guilty of it as anyone else. It's worth remembering that many of our ex's are undiagnosed. We've just read the list of the traits and given our own laymans diagnosis.

I can only speak from my experience. My ex was obviously a deeply troubled individual whom I strongly suspect suffers from BPD according to the list of traits. But if we are willing to label our ex's as BPD we must also accept that they are suffering from a mental illness and IMO a kind soul would not vilify someone with such a debilitating illness but rather pity them and ultimately forgive them. My ex was a good person who suffered terribly. I cannot have her constantly crisis filled existence in my life and the way she ended our relationship was not the action of any sort of person I want in my life. In time I have come to consider her not a bad or malicious person but rather a person who because of her illness suffers in a way that us nons will never have an understanding of. Hanging onto the anger is part of the grieving process but anger only hurts you. Eventually you find your peace by letting the anger go, the anger towards your ex and the anger we sometimes feel towards ourselves. I am convinced it is the only way forward.

these people are BRUTAL! 

Perhaps it's more precise to claim that abusive people are brutal. The statistical probability exists that many who remain undiagnosed will not meet the diagnostic criteria, yet still act brutally abusive? Therefore which "people" are they? Are the traits themselves indicia of abuse? By definition those traits seem to be almost morally nihilistic. Yet, as a spectrum disorder is it solely black and white? I think precise definitions are important when we make claims that dehumanize a class of people. History has taught us that when we objectify people (by dehumanizing them), any conduct becomes permissible. To a great extent, many will feel that they were entirely objectified in these relationships and therefore were reduced to objects. Should we employ the exact same mechanics?   

[Infared]

Infared, in the very short time I have been here your voice has sung out to me also. You capture and convey the very essence of the conversation and convey what is hovering in our hearts and minds... .what can be tricky to see as clearly as you state it. Thanks for sharing it as you see it.

Compassion14

Compassion, thanks for your note... .I am far enough away from the trauma... .and I think that the whole experience is something that none of us will forget. I come here because I still have pain associated with the abandonment and it helps me heal when I talk about it... .but I have also realized that all that pain and negativity, a place where I thought that there was nothing positive at all, but there is something... .Because I went through that, I can immediately identify with someone who is fresh in the horror and that all that negativity that I endured is now this great gift of understanding that I can share with someone who is suffering and confused like I was. Many of us cannot even talk to our friends or relatives any more because they just can,t understand or comprehend what the experience was like for us and how we need to recover from it and heal in our own time... .I believe that I have been given a gift of being useful to others by simply sharing my story, and listening to others and lending support when I can. I thought that nothing good could ever come from the emotional pain that I endured. I am grateful to come here and grateful for your note.

[PinkieV]

My DH's uBPDew wrote him a letter stating she always thought they'd get back together. She knew I'd see it and figured I'd flip out - exactly what she'd do in my place. It was totally calculated to cause hurt and distrust. Some day I'll tell her how much I laughed about it!

[Rise]

i don't know how many times she manipulated arguments, was emotionally abusive to me having her say, and then when i'd want to say something back or give my point of view she'd start shaking and crying, telling me to 'just leave, just leave, i can't take it'... .

... .All in all, Rise, just understand that some of us did have to deal with these things. In order for you to understand where we are coming from, you'd have to remember some of the worst arguments you had with your ex--then imagine them laughing at you and thoroughly enjoying it. And i was with her for years and never could figure out how manipulative she was until after 4 years and after we broke up. Those of us that have had these realizations have another level of understanding and forgiveness to achieve.

... .it's important for those that were never manipulated to understand that those of us who were aren't simply crazy, overly-suspect people. many of us *know* from first hand experience. it's good to question ourselves and our suspicions but it's undeniable in many cases how devious pwBPD can be.

goldylamont,

I may understand what you've been through better than you think. Your comment about your ex instigating an argument and then breaking down and "not being able to take it"... .been there. I know how hard that can be. Mine wasn't recording our arguments (as far as I know), but on several occasions she became physically abusive with me in an attempt to manipulate me into hitting her back, so she could use it against me . In my relationship with my ex I've been lied to, raged at, gas-lighted, cheated on, used, and stolen from. I simply don't have the time or character limit to list the things I went through with my ex. I will not sit here and claim that I've had it as bad as some people. I was never made to fear for my life or safety, or had false allegations made against me (although the threat was made), but I promise you, I came out of the relationship with my share of emotional scars. I just find it interesting that because I don't take the same stance as everyone else that you would assume I haven't had similar experiences, or that I don't understand.

I think I may have to clear up some misconceptions about what I've said. First, no where did I say pwBPD can't be manipulative. I've experienced it first hand. I've also likewise never said that pwBPD never do something to intentionally hurt someone. That would be absolute rubbish, because they do. I didn't make any excuses for anyone's behavior, and not once in my life have I ever said how any of us have been treated is acceptable. And I've never, nor ever would, call anyone on here crazy over their opinions or feelings. When I state that my ex isn't very good at plotting and scheming, it's the truth. That's my experience. And just because I've had a different experience doesn't invalidate what other people have gone through.

Other than that, I simply stated there were other ways to interpret freedom33's situation with the information he provided us (Which quite frankly, is a factual statement) and put forward two possible other explanations as to his ex's actions. It's up to freedom to decide what the correct interpretation is (which I fully admitted may not be what I put forward). If others would think that is an attack on their experiences... .well that's just not my intention.

I had so much more to write about the healing process, and anger, and keeping ourselves open, but I've been struggling with a migraine all day, so I'm going to have to call it here. I do appreciate your opinions goldy, and I'm glad that we both agree on challenging ourselves and our viewpoints. I think we can both agree if we don't, we risk getting stuck and not being able to move forward with our own personal growth.

[goldylamont]

Rise, you are correct. it was presumptuous of me to assume that your opinions came from inexperience dealing with certain aspects of BPD. my apologies for having done so. i really am sorry that i said things that way. where this comes from is from past experience here where sometimes i was made to feel as if my opinions weren't valid somehow in regards to intentions and manipulation. this was a while ago yet i still recognize it as a small trigger for me.

it's a tricky situation to discuss. because it is true that we can demonize our exes when dealing with our own emotions. yet there are times i've found my viewpoints perhaps seen as 'demonizing' where i am simply looking for deeper understanding. all of these are things we have to discuss with discretion and self reflection. and rereading your posts i don't think you meant to discredit other viewpoints, rather to simply offer alternate views.

i'd be interested to know your thoughts on healing/anger and the like when you are feeling better. i hope your migraine passes soon, be well!

[freedom33]

Thanks for all your comments. Here is an update on the potential scheming saga. My lodger told me that there is a possibility that the gift set didn't come with a hand lotion. Although there was space in the set for a hand lotion it may not have come with it as it was a custom made set... .She will contact her friend who bought it on-line to check the receipt and confirm what items ishe bought for her exactly. So there are also chances that this whole thing could have been a coincidence,  a mind blowing coincidence. When that probability emerged a couple of days ago I started feeling sorry for the possibility of blaming her unfairly - although to be fair my lodger presented her missing hand lotion item to me as a done deal.

The lesson I am learning these couple of days is that following the route of blaming my ex as a way of detaching doesn't get me very far. In fact just holding those two possibilities together in mind and the associated uncertainty and not obsessing about it is such a liberation and is moving me closer to detachment.

Either way this whole thing turns out this, it has also made me think of how unimportant, in the grand scheme of things, all of this is. I mean life is short, all of us are suffering in one way or another and are trying to get by in this wolrd, do I really have time for all this extra pain, do I want to spend more time in a black hole of anxiety, anger, depression and negative thinking and ruminating about what happened with x, y and z? I mean there is a a whole world out there! Things to do, people to meet, places to see and my life to live. I really want to get out of this auto-pilot anger/victim mode, pick up the pieces and get on with my life. Yes, she did things to hurt me, I didn't deserve all this pain I endured and it has been enough for me. I can also see that it in some ways it was beyond her powers not to do so. I mean she can't help herself. I know that deep down she really wanted to have a relationship with me, yet she knows she is unable to and that is enough suffering for her too. I feel a sense of compassion for both of us today and it helps me to accept it all a little bit more and move a few more steps in the right direction.

So I am grateful for this experience regardless of the actual outcome.

[Infared]

You say patatoe I say potato... .

Hey! Why am I getting stuck with the incorrect spelling? You take the Dan Quayle version, I want potato.

LOL! ... .OK... I as potatoe... .

[Infared]

these people are BRUTAL! 

Perhaps it's more precise to claim that abusive people are brutal. The statistical probability exists that many who remain undiagnosed will not meet the diagnostic criteria, yet still act brutally abusive? Therefore which "people" are they? Are the traits themselves indicia of abuse? By definition those traits seem to be almost morally nihilistic. Yet, as a spectrum disorder is it solely black and white? I think precise definitions are important when we make claims that dehumanize a class of people. History has taught us that when we objectify people (by dehumanizing them), any conduct becomes permissible. To a great extent, many will feel that they were entirely objectified in these relationships and therefore were reduced to objects. Should we employ the exact same mechanics?   

Good point... .I will try to keep it in the "I".mMy experience was brutal, but  many experiences related here are similar.

[Rise]

The lesson I am learning these couple of days is that following the route of blaming my ex as a way of detaching doesn't get me very far. In fact just holding those two possibilities together in mind and the associated uncertainty and not obsessing about it is such a liberation and is moving me closer to detachment.

Either way this whole thing turns out this, it has also made me think of how unimportant, in the grand scheme of things, all of this is. I mean life is short, all of us are suffering in one way or another and are trying to get by in this wolrd, do I really have time for all this extra pain, do I want to spend more time in a black hole of anxiety, anger, depression and negative thinking and ruminating about what happened with x, y and z? I mean there is a a whole world out there! Things to do, people to meet, places to see and my life to live. I really want to get out of this auto-pilot anger/victim mode, pick up the pieces and get on with my life. Yes, she did things to hurt me, I didn't deserve all this pain I endured and it has been enough for me. I can also see that it in some ways it was beyond her powers not to do so. I mean she can't help herself. I know that deep down she really wanted to have a relationship with me, yet she knows she is unable to and that is enough suffering for her too. I feel a sense of compassion for both of us today and it helps me to accept it all a little bit more and move a few more steps in the right direction.

Bravo Freedom. Bravo. Be proud. Reading this put a smile on my face.