Calming the storm - trust issues

[Depression = 72% of members]

I did a check-in with my therapist today (last time I saw her was a few months ago), and she described me as having a 'storm' going on inside me, and suggested that I use healthy self-soothing methods when I am feel the storm in action.

I have found that although my inner turmoil doesn't always present itself to the world, that it does leak out and effect my behavior in dysfunctional ways.  A lot of it boils down to trust issues for me.

I just started reading a book called The Courage to Trust.  It describes 3 different kind of trusts:

- Self trust

- Faith in a positive future

- Trusting others

The book gives questions to ponder, along with a general point system on determining your trust levels within each category.  Come to find out my self trust is poor, my faith in a positive future is ok, and my trusting others score listed this as the description: "You either trust people immensely, or you don't let them close enough to hurt you.

Hmmm... .

The claim being that if self trust and faith in a positive future are good, then trusting others, most likely, isn't an issue.

I can deal with my self trust issues, and find it interesting that I have faith in a positive future, but it's the trusting others issue that bothers me the most.  I don't want my stuff to effect my relationships, but I guess that's just a given.

So... .I do have some healthy self-soothing techniques that I use pretty consistently, however, there are those moments when my choice is to sooth myself dysfunctionally by reacting instead of thoughtfully responding.  My therapist said, and I know this, that it's a matter of recognizing when I'm heading towards dysfunction and just stopping myself, dead in my tracks.  Take a moment to assess the situation, and choose not to react.

That's a hard one for me sometimes.  I feel like I have made some strides in this, but still have that inner storm brewing.  It's troublesome.

Just needed to get this out there and see if anyone has some advice, or would want to share their feelings/thoughts about what you're going through and how you deal with it.

Thanks 

[Want2know]

I did a check-in with my therapist today (last time I saw her was a few months ago), and she described me as having a 'storm' going on inside me, and suggested that I use healthy self-soothing methods when I am feel the storm in action.

I have found that although my inner turmoil doesn't always present itself to the world, that it does leak out and effect my behavior in dysfunctional ways.  A lot of it boils down to trust issues for me.

I just started reading a book called The Courage to Trust.  It describes 3 different kind of trusts:

- Self trust

- Faith in a positive future

- Trusting others

The book gives questions to ponder, along with a general point system on determining your trust levels within each category.  Come to find out my self trust is poor, my faith in a positive future is ok, and my trusting others score listed this as the description: "You either trust people immensely, or you don't let them close enough to hurt you.

Hmmm... .

The claim being that if self trust and faith in a positive future are good, then trusting others, most likely, isn't an issue.

I can deal with my self trust issues, and find it interesting that I have faith in a positive future, but it's the trusting others issue that bothers me the most.  I don't want my stuff to effect my relationships, but I guess that's just a given.

So... .I do have some healthy self-soothing techniques that I use pretty consistently, however, there are those moments when my choice is to sooth myself dysfunctionally by reacting instead of thoughtfully responding.  My therapist said, and I know this, that it's a matter of recognizing when I'm heading towards dysfunction and just stopping myself, dead in my tracks.  Take a moment to assess the situation, and choose not to react.

That's a hard one for me sometimes.  I feel like I have made some strides in this, but still have that inner storm brewing.  It's troublesome.

Just needed to get this out there and see if anyone has some advice, or would want to share their feelings/thoughts about what you're going through and how you deal with it.

Thanks 

[Surnia]

Hi want2know 

I am thinking myself a lot about the "reaction" versus "thoughtfully responding".

I came along this again lately through a introduction workshop in mindful based stress reduction. The topic was the autopilot, which leads normally to fight, flight or freeze. So I started to watch myself, what am I doing, most of the time I choose flight or freeze and I was wondering about the fourth possibility. I had lately a  : face it. Which means in your words, stopping and making an assessment and choose a possibility how to deal with it.

Its about this moment: Being able to make a pause watching whats going on.

I think it needs a lot of practice in mindfulness, at least for me. And being patient with myself. Even if I am realizing "to late" this was the autopilot running its a little success in awareness.

[Want2know]

Hi Surnia!  

I am thinking myself a lot about the "reaction" versus "thoughtfully responding".

I came along this again lately through a introduction workshop in mindful based stress reduction. The topic was the autopilot, which leads normally to fight, flight or freeze.

Fight, flight or freeze.  Yup.  

I was describing a situation to her yesterday where she had me talk out my options.  I could either continuing reacting, confront the issue, or totally disregard it, coming to the conclusion that doing nothing and just sitting with the feeling, thoughtfully was probably the best option for now.

I had to go back to the Wise Mind workshop, as all of this rang a huge bell for me: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

There are several ways that mindfulness can help reduce the intensity, duration, and frequency of unhelpful habitual response patterns.

• Loosening the grip of habitual responses that cause (additional) suffering.

• Slowing the pace of thoughts/reactions.

• Reducing the intensity of unhelpful habitual responses.

• Increasing the spaciousness of present awareness.

• Noticing, enjoying and cultivating positive experiences and emotions

• Making connections that weren't there before.  

Sometimes I find that I am missing the logical piece and I tend to leap to destructive conclusions vs. something that is closer to the reality of the situation.  What I do is some form of dysfunctional self-protection, as if I assume the worst, if the worst is true, then I am prepared.  Not a good way to live life.

Many times before I react, I call friends.  This is helpful because they can help me see options that I didn't, and also it gives me time to work through my feelings.  I would like to be able to do this on my own better so that I don't continually have to rely upon others to talk me off the ledge.

Looking forward to continued reading of the book... .hopefully it will have more answers for me.

[Surnia]

Yes, the wise mind workshop, how many time I have read it  

How Do We Do This?

By paying attention to ourselves in real time.

This is for me the key sentence - and also a key question. How can I make it that mindfulness is not just a "nice weekend guest" but sitting on my shoulder most of the time, so to say... . 

[seeking balance]

My therapist said, and I know this, that it's a matter of recognizing when I'm heading towards dysfunction and just stopping myself, dead in my tracks.  Take a moment to assess the situation, and choose not to react.

That's a hard one for me sometimes.  I feel like I have made some strides in this, but still have that inner storm brewing.  It's troublesome.

Just needed to get this out there and see if anyone has some advice, or would want to share their feelings/thoughts about what you're going through and how you deal with it.

Thanks 

I agree with Mindfulness that Surnia talks about too.

Additionally, I found it helped when I accepted the fact that it is hard to do and it is going to take practice.  It's not like any of us got to this place over night, changing our behavior is going to feel uncomfortable and take some time.  DBT skills are awesome in this area too.

Think of the first time you went to yoga, how many years did it take to do level 2 poses correctly and how much focus and mindfulness does it still take.  Why are you expecting your emotional state especially as it relates to relationships be any quicker?  It is a practice - yoga and life actually 

comfortable with uncertainty - Pema Chodrin... .might be a good time for a reread. I find that "inner storm" tends to reside here.

Peace,

SB

[Want2know]

How can I make it that mindfulness is not just a "nice weekend guest" but sitting on my shoulder most of the time, so to say... . 

As SB says, it takes practice over time to have your wise mind be more than a weekend guest. 

comfortable with uncertainty - Pema Chodrin... .might be a good time for a reread. I find that "inner storm" tends to reside here.

I found a quote from the book you referenced that struck me:

"Nothing ever goes away until it has taught us what we need to know."

I guess that includes those nagging feelings that are trying to tell us something…sometimes I can’t find what it is I need to know when those feelings arise.  That’s when the storm is at it’s worst.  It’s not just a matter of being mindful, at those times.  For me, I need to go searching for answers from other objective sources, as I don’t trust my own assessment.

Which leads me back to self trust.  That does seem to be the baseline issue.  If I can learn to trust my judgment and be mindful vs. reacting, I’m guessing my inner storm would be more manageable.

[seeking balance]

Which leads me back to self trust.  That does seem to be the baseline issue.  If I can learn to trust my judgment and be mindful vs. reacting, I’m guessing my inner storm would be more manageable.

What does more manageable even mean?  Seriously... .what if this is what manageable looks like?  You have tools, you pick them up, you don't "react" in ways that are harmful, if you do you apologize - why do you think it needs to be different?  I mean, life is difficult - emotions happen... .sorry if this comes across harsh or flippant, not my intent at all... .challenging your thinking that you are not managing "good enough".

In life, I think we all have inner storms to some degree - is there something about your inner storm that is causing shame in you?

[Want2know]

If feeling inadequate equates to feeling shame, then yes, there is some level of shame that is a part of my inner storm.

As I mentioned earlier, most people who see me on a daily basis probably don’t notice the inner storm, as I keep it inside, and it's not always stormy in Want2Know-land.

I’m ok with allowing those whom I really trust to be a part of it (i.e... Talking about what is bothering me at the moment).  I don’t feel judged by them, and it is helpful to talk about it.

It’s when others might be affected by my behaviors, stemming from the storm.  As you mentioned, if this happens, you apologize and move on.  I find it hard to move on without feeling inadequate for not being able to refrain from reacting.  I know it’s only human, and everyone does it, so intellectually I understand, but something deep down says that I still haven’t learned how to control my behavior more consistently which leads to feelings of inadequacy.

BTW, my therapist said it would benefit me to be a part of some type of group therapy, as those folks tend to call you on your stuff.  I see this site as some form of group therapy and expect you to call me on my stuff, SB – I don’t see you as being harsh or flippant.   

[seeking balance]

but something deep down says that I still haven’t learned how to control my behavior more consistently which leads to feelings of inadequacy.

Do you have a specific example you are comfortable sharing?

BTW, my therapist said it would benefit me to be a part of some type of group therapy,

This is in the book The Betrayal Bond as a tool also... .learning to build trust in ourselves and others... .what kind of group are you thinking of?  Yes, this forum is sort of like that - but I do think there is a deep value to facing people to work through our stuff rather than online.

Being ok in being human - meaning not perfect - as you know, has been a focus of mine these last few years too.  I have worked really hard on my self talk, doing my morning affirmation and my gratitude list.  My internal self talk is what I think I have changed the most... .when I am not perfect, I tell myself it is ok - I make amends if I need to and I let go.  It sounds simple, but it has been a diligent, mindful work - and sometimes I mess up.

I know we don't talk about spiritual stuff as much since that board was nixed - but, I fundamentally believe my self worth, self trust is directly related to my spiritual practice (not religion)... .if you want to talk more about this, we can - if not, I totally respect everyone's spiritual journey/practice.

[Want2know]

but something deep down says that I still haven’t learned how to control my behavior more consistently which leads to feelings of inadequacy.

Do you have a specific example you are comfortable sharing?

I tend to shoot off emails when I’m in a turmoil.  I’ve said some horrible things, some belittling things, some self-destructive things, etc.  Sometimes when I’ve had a few drinks and sometimes when I’m sober.  It sounds so easy to just say to myself – do not send an email when I’m emotionally dysregulated.  Not so easy in practice.  I spend so much time back-peddling afterwards, and I feel like crap.

This is in the book The Betrayal Bond as a tool also... .learning to build trust in ourselves and others... .what kind of group are you thinking of?  Yes, this forum is sort of like that - but I do think there is a deep value to facing people to work through our stuff rather than online.

I agree face to face is better, and I’m not sure what kind of group – I didn’t explore that option with her much (I do have a follow up with her next Monday).

Being ok in being human - meaning not perfect - as you know, has been a focus of mine these last few years too.  I have worked really hard on my self talk, doing my morning affirmation and my gratitude list.  My internal self talk is what I think I have changed the most... .when I am not perfect, I tell myself it is ok - I make amends if I need to and I let go.  It sounds simple, but it has been a diligent, mindful work - and sometimes I mess up.

I also have worked on this, and feel I have made progress.  There is still a piece of it that I mess up which occurs when I have feelings for a guy (ie. like the email issue above).

I know we don't talk about spiritual stuff as much since that board was nixed - but, I fundamentally believe my self worth, self trust is directly related to my spiritual practice (not religion)... .if you want to talk more about this, we can - if not, I totally respect everyone's spiritual journey/practice.

I was talking to a close friend who mentioned that her spiritual practice is number one as far as what keeps her grounded.  Second, was herself, and third was her partner/relationship.  I am intrigued by this, and am very open to talking about it.

[seeking balance]

I tend to shoot off emails when I’m in a turmoil.  I’ve said some horrible things, some belittling things, some self-destructive things, etc.   It sounds so easy to just say to myself – do not send an email when I’m emotionally dysregulated.  Not so easy in practice.  I spend so much time back-peddling afterwards, and I feel like crap.

Impulsive Behavior as a reaction to What emotion specifically?

Identify the emotion, then work of an alternate behavior.

How versed in DBT are you?  Fundamentally, I think of it as emotional kindergarten, the skills work for anyone and everyone who react impulsively.

Sometimes when I’ve had a few drinks and sometimes when I’m sober.

So, I can be a bit more amplified when drinking - I know this, sometimes it is entertaining and sometimes I can be an ___.  When I was working on my big stuff, I took time off drinking totally - no more numbing of any kind.  Have you had a time in your life where you have stopped drinking for a significant amount of time where you simultaneously worked on core stuff? (yeah, I know a hard question)

I also have worked on this, and feel I have made progress.  There is still a piece of it that I mess up which occurs when I have feelings for a guy (ie. like the email issue above).

What feelings specifically?

Are these feelings your issue or are you not having rational needs met?  Is this guy bringing out your best self?

I was talking to a close friend who mentioned that her spiritual practice is number one as far as what keeps her grounded.  Second, was herself, and third was her partner/relationship.  I am intrigued by this, and am very open to talking about it.

Well, this is probably its own thread, but for me - I have a very active practice.  I pray, I go to mass(not every week, but I get a lot out of the ritual), I watch Super Soul Sunday, I watch Joel Osteen (yeah, really), Pema Chodrin meditation exercises, daily yoga practice  and I take everything in to feed my spirit and it helps me act, in what I believe to be, my higher self,  Not all the time, but more than not. 

I heard a saying recently that I really like - think of the ocean as God/Higher Power, etc... .now put a cup in the ocean and that is you - a cup of God.  If I am a cup of God, I  have value as I am... .I do my best. 

I also believe we are here to experience life and have a journey - all souls have a different journey - each to learn what they came to learn.  In meditation, this comes clearer - in nature, this is clearer too... .do you know how to make your higher self be clearer?  Do you make time for this?

I am not saying to do what I do at all, it doesn't work for everyone.  I do think spirituality connectedness to a higher something is fundamental to a stable self worth and trust... .My opinion that works for me.

[Want2know]

Impulsive Behavior as a reaction to What emotion specifically?

Identify the emotion, then work of an alternate behavior.

The feeling of rejection seems to be a pretty solid pattern when this happens.

Have you had a time in your life where you have stopped drinking for a significant amount of time where you simultaneously worked on core stuff? (yeah, I know a hard question)

Stopped completely - no.

What feelings specifically?

Are these feelings your issue or are you not having rational needs met?  Is this guy bringing out your best self?

Rational needs…can you give me an example of what this means?  If it's what I think it means, part of my issue is I'm not sure if my needs are rational.

It’s not just the guy I’m seeing now…it seems to happen with any guy I have more than friendly feelings towards.

I do think spirituality connectedness to a higher something is fundamental to a stable self worth and trust... .My opinion that works for me.

I agree.  When I feel tapped in, I feel stable and trust that I am exactly where I need to be.  It’s a beautiful feeling that I really do need to focus more on.  Thanks for the reminder.  

[seeking balance]

Impulsive Behavior as a reaction to What emotion specifically?

Identify the emotion, then work of an alternate behavior.

The feeling of rejection seems to be a pretty solid pattern when this happens.

What do you mean by rejection?  Abandonment?

Rational needs…can you give me an example of what this means?  If it's what I think it means, part of my issue is I'm not sure if my needs are rational.

It’s not just the guy I’m seeing now…it seems to happen with any guy I have more than friendly feelings towards.

Yeah, I figured it was a pattern - however, there is a pattern of men who don't put your needs first starting with your dad (breathe right now, hard stuff, I know... .)

We all need to feel safe and that we matter, our needs matter. 

Did you ever read Alice Miller - Drama of the Gifted Child?

Hard ___, but reality is gifted children are the ones who manage to survive while their own emotional needs may go unmet.  An example used in the book is a 2 year old wanting her own ice cream cone and the parents giving her licks of theirs.  She pitches a fit, they don't know why and get frustrated.  Are they wrong?  No, but the kid didn't get her needs met.  Where the needs rational, maybe or maybe not - they were needs none the less.  Kid learns she doesn't matter.

So, what are your needs regarding rejection?  Is it that you are a bottomless pit of need or is it that you need to feel heard, seen, matter.  Do you ask for you needs to be met?

[Want2know]

Yeah, I figured it was a pattern - however, there is a pattern of men who don't put your needs first starting with your dad (breathe right now, hard stuff, I know... .)

Yes…blargh. 

So, what are your needs regarding rejection?  Is it that you are a bottomless pit of need or is it that you need to feel heard, seen, matter.  Do you ask for you needs to be met?

I don’t expect any man to put my needs first, however, I would like to feel like they’ve been considered on some level. So, when I get this feeling of rejection, and do not feel like I've been considered, I tend to over-react.

I would like to think I’m not a bottomless pit and that I am able to communicate my basic needs.  Some of the issue may be that I do not realize I have a need for something and therefore don't communicate it until I realize the need after the fact, after the 'explosion'.

I don't think it's necessarily abandonment, but there is some of that associated with the rejection.  Rejection is the first feeling, then sometimes followed by abandonment, depending on the situation.

Thanks for sticking this one out with me, SB.  You rock! 

[A Dad]

Did you ever read Alice Miller - Drama of the Gifted Child?

Hard ___, but reality is gifted children are the ones who manage to survive while their own emotional needs may go unmet.  An example used in the book is a 2 year old wanting her own ice cream cone and the parents giving her licks of theirs.  She pitches a fit, they don't know why and get frustrated.  Are they wrong?  No, but the kid didn't get her needs met.  Where the needs rational, maybe or maybe not - they were needs none the less.  Kid learns she doesn't matter.

Hey SB,

I haven't posted much recently... busy with rebuilding my life and looking after my two kids... but I have been reading often and this made me stop and respond...

I was flicking through that book... and that chapter happened to be the one I read first... I think it has changed me forever. I love my children to death, but I was a bit of a disciplinarian... and I was ok with that because I thought between my SO and myself the kids would do ok... I read that chapter when I was facing the very real possibility of parenting my kids by myself and it really shook me! Because that is quite possibly how I would have acted with my child (at least in part because I grew up with an emotionally unavailable mother). Thanks to reading that book, I am more aware now... I pay attention to the POV of my little two year old when I choose how to respond to his demands...

So... a great book... if you have kids, and you are in this kind of messy situation with kids of your own... please read this book!

[seeking balance]

I don’t expect any man to put my needs first, however, I would like to feel like they’ve been considered on some level.

Specifically, what would this look like for you?  honestly, what action or words (not sure your love language as to what makes you feel loved) would work in this situation?

I would like to think I’m not a bottomless pit and that I am able to communicate my basic needs. 

It has taken me some serious reflection to realize what I need from a partner versus what I can get from my friends... .expecting a partner to meet all my needs is not realistic - they are human.  I literally go into SB mode to myself to analyze what I am feeling versus what I need versus do I need it from partner or someone else.

Some of the issue may be that I do not realize I have a need for something and therefore don't communicate it until I realize the need after the fact, after the 'explosion'.

This is on you to stay mindful of, which I think was where you were starting this post from... .full circle now LOL

I don't think it's necessarily abandonment, but there is some of that associated with the rejection.  Rejection is the first feeling, then sometimes followed by abandonment, depending on the situation.

Thanks for sticking this one out with me, SB.  You rock! 

Is rejection the same for you as "not enough" ?  That is my button "not enough"

[seeking balance]

So... a great book... if you have kids, and you are in this kind of messy situation with kids of your own... please read this book!

Not to hijack, but I so agree - it was a hard read for me and has lead me to look at parenting in a very different mindset.  Much more the Conscious Parent model. 

[Want2know]

Specifically, what would this look like for you?  honestly, what action or words (not sure your love language as to what makes you feel loved) would work in this situation?

I would like to be responded to in SET format. 

So, for example, if we have plans that the other person knows I’m excited about, and the plans need to be revised because of their needs, communicating their support, empathy, and then the truth would help me feel that my needs were considered.

It has taken me some serious reflection to realize what I need from a partner versus what I can get from my friends... .expecting a partner to meet all my needs is not realistic - they are human.  I literally go into SB mode to myself to analyze what I am feeling versus what I need versus do I need it from partner or someone else.

I totally get this…there are things I get from my girlfriends or other friends that I don’t expect from a partner all of the time.

Some of the issue may be that I do not realize I have a need for something and therefore don't communicate it until I realize the need after the fact, after the 'explosion'.

This is on you to stay mindful of, which I think was where you were starting this post from... .full circle now LOL

Uh, huh.  The situation that brought this on meant more to me than I realized, and I think I set myself up for disappointment.

Is rejection the same for you as "not enough" ?  That is my button "not enough"

If you mean not enough in the sense that my expectations are greater than what is achieved, then yes.  I don’t think my expectations are too high, but going back to communicating them, that may be where I am not as effective as I think I am. 

[seeking balance]

I would like to be responded to in SET format. 

So, for example, if we have plans that the other person knows I’m excited about, and the plans need to be revised because of their needs, communicating their support, empathy, and then the truth would help me feel that my needs were considered.

OK - that made me laugh out loud. literally.

So, in the real world, not everyone has the benefit of communication workshops - have you simply told him your needs using DEARMAN?  LOL

Honestly, he likely has no idea you need a little sympathy is all.

Uh, huh.  The situation that brought this on meant more to me than I realized, and I think I set myself up for disappointment.

When you felt the disappointment, is that when you reacted impulsively?

If you mean not enough in the sense that my expectations are greater than what is achieved, then yes.  I don’t think my expectations are too high, but going back to communicating them, that may be where I am not as effective as I think I am. 

not what I meant  I meant the button in you that is pushed you call rejection - I call not worthy enough for paying attention to my emotions.

Most of us do not communicate nearly as good as we think we do, mainly because everyone has a different lens they look through.  De-personalizing miscommunications is important... .do you feel like it is a personal attack when someone you are intimate with doesn't get you?

Going back to your inner storm brewing - it sounds like you are saying that when you feel unimportant to the person you are intimate with, you react in ways you wish you wouldn't because it pushes your rejection button and you are looking for tools in not reacting - is this where we started from and are we still addressing this?

[Want2know]

I would like to be responded to in SET format. 

OK - that made me laugh out loud. literally.

I thought you might get a chuckle from that one, even though I am serious that it would have helped.

When you felt the disappointment, is that when you reacted impulsively?

Initially, I did not communicate the disappointment, and instead tried to act like it didn’t bother me and be empathetic to his needs, and then it started bothering me and my mind took me places I wished it hadn’t – that’s when I reacted.

Going back to your inner storm brewing - it sounds like you are saying that when you feel unimportant to the person you are intimate with, you react in ways you wish you wouldn't because it pushes your rejection button and you are looking for tools in not reacting - is this where we started from and are we still addressing this?

Yes... you got that right, sister.  You have helped me put more detail and clarity to my issue, as well as helped me see where I need to go next, so even though we have come full circle, I have learned along the way. 

[Want2know]

What an incredibly painful week of deliberation for me on this topic.  It does seem to have a 'happy ending', which is good.  It's one of those times where I have to say that this lesson was difficult, and I hope one not soon forgotten.

Had a conversation last night regarding my last freak out with the guy I'm seeing.  He was totally forgiving, more so than I was with myself.  The beauty of it all is that I was able to work out exactly what was bothering me here with my peeps.  It helped me to be very direct and succinct when talking to him.  We both owned our stuff - he admitted he was a poor communicator, which he is, and we agreed to try and do better as things like this arise.

Main thing is that it created another level of intimacy with him, with me walking away with the feeling that it is so important, as SB pointed out, to maintain some grounded spiritual sense in order to not trigger so easily.  Lesson learned?  I guess we'll see.  At least the storm is out to sea for now.

TGIF y'all! 

[seeking balance]

At least the storm is out to sea for now.

TGIF y'all! 

TGIF Sister!