Naive to believe it was all honesty?

[pavilion]

Am I being naïve to think that my ex was always honest with me? I was with him 2.5 years and there was only one time when I felt there was a discrepancy between what he had once told me and what came out subsequently. I had no contact with any links to him because he isn't in contact with any friends or family and would cringe at the idea of me meeting any of his past acquaintances. When I met him he had become friends with another girl on the dating site but once he met me that faded and he invested all his time and efforts into me. I'm trying to make sense of the last few years but maybe that is futile.

[Blimblam]

If he is in fact BPD you can bet your bottom dollar he lied to you.  They have to lie.  My ex would lie to her dad about the most insignificant things. Cluster B's lie it is what they do.  The thing is everyone lies a bit now and then, maybe mostly to ourselves.  When it comes to a cluster B though it is pathological.

[mywifecrazy]

I agree with Blimblam. My uBPDxw is a Waif BPD. I was blind and in the FOG for 20 yrs as she was a Chameleon. The truth is now coming out on a daily basis as Her family and I have talked and it's incredible the amount of lies she has told and still does tell. Lies about little things too that there is no logical reason to lie about. It is SCARY the things she lies about. She is PATHOLOGICAL, It's who she is, she can't control herself. It really is SAD to see how her life is being destroyed by the lies she tells.

I like you never realized about her lying. I'm not saying you're in the same position but beware, if he is TRUELY BPD your head will SPIN when the truth is revealed. I hope for your sake it's not as bad.

MWC... .

[pavilion]

I guess I may never find out as he does not use social media and, short of contacting his ex, there is no way to know.

[refusetosuccumb]

I believed, for a long time, that my ex was truthful with me.  Whenever he'd done something "wrong" he'd cop to it.  Then I discovered that he would only cop to just enough to make me believe he was being truthful but that was just the tip of the iceburg.

My son was his dad yesterday.  My ex invited a woman over for supper with them (he only has our kids one to two days a week while I work, but that's another vent... .).  I asked ex about her this morning and he claims she's just a friend.  But according to my son (who is 11 and why would he lie about it) she was more than just a friend.

For the record, I do my damndest not to talk to my ex.  He texted me asking me to bring over some paperwork, and he keeps asking for me back.  So I took the chance of asking about her, hoping it will be the end of him begging me to take him back.  Shame on me, .

Liar liar pants on fire.  Even if it's the disorder, it's really hard for us nons to wrap our heads around it.

[Mr Hollande]

My ex often used to accuse me of lying. From having read so many accounts here I'm beginning to understand that that may very well have been her projecting her own lies on me. I'm ready to accept that just about everything she told me were lies. I will never really know and that realisation is enough for me.

[Alex86]

The whole mirroring thing is a LIE! All the others are insignificant!

[fromheeltoheal]

Yeah, my ex lied constantly too, but why?  As I learned about the disorder and processed what had happened from a more detached place, it became clear that her opinion of herself and her fear of abandonment drove it all.  She admitted to me that she didn't care about herself and had no idea who she was when she was alone, and felt great shame over that because she concluded that was because she was defective, yet being abandoned was the worst thing that could happen.  If you were wired that way, how could you possibly tell the truth?  So she got very, very good at lying, which had the bonus effect of confusing the hell out of people, I for one started questioning myself almost constantly, and that worked to control people so we wouldn't leave.

So the web of lies had a purpose, but wanna see gross?  Even the best liars screw up, the web is too difficult to manage when you're spending a lot of time together, and when I caught her in a lie her whole world crumbled, the house of cards collapsed, and she melted into a puddle of shame that was disgusting and painful to watch.  So easy to fix, he says from outside the disorder, just be open, honest and real with me.  Nope, not happening.  Sad, but it is what it is.

[BlondeRunner]

Lies about little things too that there is no logical reason to lie about. It is SCARY the things she lies about.

Exactly, MWC! My dBPDexbf told tonnes of little lies that there were no point in telling! Even things he knew he wouldn't be able to continue! It was nuts! Example: "Last night I booked a holiday for us to Greece in August"... .What did he think would happen when we didn't go? That i'd forget? "I don't have any money because I've been paying off an engagement ring for the last four months". He had to come clean that wasn't true when I wouldn't stop laughing about it because it was so ridiculous!

My family have been so incensed by his behaviour they suggested I contact his estranged family and exes to get the full picture. I said "No thanks" -it wouldn't do any good and frankly, I think I only scratched the surface of his lies and deceit. Goodness know what was really lurking behind there. I don't wanna know!

[camuse]

I stupidly take people at face value so assumed she was being honest (!) and never really caught her out until after we split, when I discovered a totally bizarre thing - she had described her previous house to me many times, about how she had done it up and put certain type of windows and radiators in it. I had to drop some stuff off there, and thought I had the wrong house - it could not possibly have been the one she described. But it was the right house - she had lied about it for no reason I can possibly fathom. It was then it dawned on me that I had probably been lied to thousands of times without realising

[Infared]

The whole mirroring thing is a LIE! All the others are insignificant!

Amen, brother.

[topknot]

And, refuseto, remember,  they are ALL "friends"... .one time I stopped by, and there was a car in front of his house. He was not there.  Cleaning lady looked scared. He told me he had to be downtown late with clients. Um hm. Ex-girlfriend's car in front. Everybody is a friend... they forget to add the "with benefits" part.

[pavilion]

I feel I need to know. I want to find out if he has lied and if this friend was "with benefits" hence her lack of interest in remaining friends once he met me.

[elessar]

This is an excellent thread. I stumbled upon BPD when I was researching why does my ex live in an alternate reality. They lie to preserve their alternate reality. They live a different reality with each group of people - friends, family, significant others, coworkers. My ex would be a rebel in the family, religious in front of close friends, party-goer with her coworkers, and a combination of all the above and more with me. It was only when I talk to her friends did it hit us (them and me) how much she lies. About 18 months back when she told me she loved me but was out on a date the following week, I told her friend who told me that since we have been broken up for years I should let her move on. I was like... .she slept with me 2 weeks back! She has never gone more than 2-3 weeks without talking to me! She always declares her love and desire to be with me. It shocked the people who heard the story. They knew about me, but they thought its been long over. Same with her family and coworkers. They believe the side about her she shows to them. And when her lies collide, and they ultimately do, she gets triggered.

They lie because they do not know what they want. Just like children change their mind and identity, so do they because they are emotional children. Today she wants children, tomorrow she doesn't. Today she wants marriage more than anything, tomorrow she says she doesn't think she can ever get married. And their own back-and-forth stresses them out and causes them to lash out at us because 50% of the times we would not be what they want.

My ex knows she lies. She has even joked about it multiple times about how easy it is for her to lie. She even says how she "wears a mask and then its showtime". She also cries about how she has to lie to survive and wishes she didn't. She leaves me because her parents would disown her for being with me, and being with me causes her to lie to everyone around her. She believes if she marries a daddy-approved guy, she wouldn't have to lie anymore. But she will and she has to. They lie for self-defense and self-preservation. They don't do it to hurt us, they do it to save themselves. One of her biggest rages towards me has always been when I talk about her to our mutual friends. Maybe that's why I haven't met any of her friends who aren't mutual friends. Because when their two worlds collide, they know their lies will be exposed. What she appears to one group is different from what she appears to another group.

Makes me wonder if her declaration of love over the last 10 years was honest, or I was just another reality for her. She has been with no one but me, although she has gone out on dates in the last 18 months. Right now she is about to get married to someone else (few hrs after declaring her love and desire to marry me). So really, it is hard to believe anything with them... .

[Pieter2]

Pavillion

Trust me on this one. DON'T find out. It is not worth it. What difference will it make? It will not give you closure. Closure will only come in the form of understanding the disorder and then understanding how insignificant your relationship really was in the greater scheme of things. Cheating or not. Doesn't matter. Let me give you some facts.

1. A BPD partner WILL cheat if presented with the possibility when you're not there.

2. They WILL blame you for it and not care in the slightest. They WILL lie to you!

3. They will regret it later and by going NC and not finding out is the ONLY way you can win.

Cheating says nothing about YOU, it says something about THEM!

Lastly, they don't have friends with benefits like other people. When they do, it is an attempt for them to get with or to control that person. They truly try and hook people by sleeping with them. And then, when the friend doesn't bite due to the whole understanding of friends with benefits, it destroys them. The whole "benefits" thing is not how they see it. They honestly try and hook another target. So sad when it doesn't work. Therefore I don't see it as cheating anyway, cause they don't do it with the intention of cheating - They do it with a real intention of leaving one relationship for another and feel utterly useless every time it doesn't work... .Again.

[camuse]

"I'm a very relaxing person to be around" was one of the first things she told me. I never met a less relaxing person to be around! That first evening she kept starting sentences without finishing them, repeatedly, it was weird and not relaxing at all. I felt something was a bit off, like she wasnt really there in the room. I pointed it out and she said she was tired and never did it again. The whole relationship was just so completely strange, in hindsight.

[Mr Hollande]

Pavillion

Trust me on this one. DON'T find out. It is not worth it. What difference will it make? It will not give you closure. Closure will only come in the form of understanding the disorder and then understanding how insignificant your relationship really was in the greater scheme of things. Cheating or not. Doesn't matter. Let me give you some facts.

1. A BPD partner WILL cheat if presented with the possibility when you're not there.

2. They WILL blame you for it and not care in the slightest. They WILL lie to you!

3. They will regret it later and by going NC and not finding out is the ONLY way you can win.

Cheating says nothing about YOU, it says something about THEM!

Lastly, they don't have friends with benefits like other people. When they do, it is an attempt for them to get with or to control that person. They truly try and hook people by sleeping with them. And then, when the friend doesn't bite due to the whole understanding of friends with benefits, it destroys them. The whole "benefits" thing is not how they see it. They honestly try and hook another target. So sad when it doesn't work. Therefore I don't see it as cheating anyway, cause they don't do it with the intention of cheating - They do it with a real intention of leaving one relationship for another and feel utterly useless every time it doesn't work... .Again.

All wise words!

[BlondeRunner]

Pavillion

Trust me on this one. DON'T find out. It is not worth it. What difference will it make? It will not give you closure. Closure will only come in the form of understanding the disorder and then understanding how insignificant your relationship really was in the greater scheme of things.

Agreed, Pieter. Don't go down this road. Pavilion. I have no desire at all to find out what was really going on with my ex behind the smokescreen. Goodness, I can't even begin to imagine the can of worms I might open and it makes absolutely no difference to the current situation.

They truly try and hook people by sleeping with them.

Pieter, if I hadn't dated my dBPDexbf I would have thought you were crazy thinking people actually do this... .but alas! I HAVE dated a pwBPD 

I mentioned this is another thread regarding red flags and I still cannot believe my ex felt it was ok to explain the reasoning behind his behaviour! Basically from the second we met he tried every trick in the book to sleep with me. It was insane. I was not having any of it, it's not my style and this drove him nuts. Later I asked him why he had been so darn persisent (annoyingly so actually), he said "Well girls get attached to people they have sex with and I knew I had to establish that emotional connection with you to get you to come back". The jaw drops... .

[Infared]

I agree with Pavillion an Mr. Hollande.

Don't find out... .the deeper you dig the more of a mess you will find that your relationship actually was... .and it will just be extremely painful to you. No one else.  It will not matter at all to the the pwBPD. Not at all. You have been used up and spit out. Everything from beginning to end was a selfish manipulation, but don't feel bad... .they are experts at manipulating and picking "us" (it is not random).

I will never forget what was to me, one day, just immediate coldness and it stayed that way. The switch had been thrown.

Look at the bigger picture, love YOU and just see that the whole thing was a giant mistake.  What I had to do is look at the things in me that brought me there. That is the only way to reach any higher plateau. People with BPD do not elevate, they lower and abuse.

... .but we went there and stayed there and that is "our" issue.

[amigo]

I used to believe everything my BPDex said, while I was with him. I believed in giving him the benefit of the doubt. Plus some of the things he said were so troubling or outrageous, I thought there is no way he would make that up. For example, why would he tell me that two women have restraining orders against him? I was impressed by how forthcoming and open he was... .I was definitely very naive.

After the breakup, I found out some inconsistencies. I don't check on him on social media and I have very few interactions with people who know him. But two things stood out where it became very obvious that he lies. I ran into a friend of his, who told me that he claimed to her the reason we broke up was because I "desperately wanted a child" and he is not ready for that. A full blown lie. He is the one who kept asking me to have a baby with him.

Then I had a chance to speak to his ex wife. He claims he married her so she could get the greencard. He also insists that they are still married. I had a chance to talk to her one day and her version is: She didn't need the greencard, they were young and in love, and she insisted on marriage before sex. So he married her. She also says they have been divorced for years. "oh honey he signed the papers a long time ago. There is no way I could still be married to this guy". And she does have a restraining order against him. I guess that part is true.

After everything that happened, I chose to believe those two women over him, even thought I don't know them all that well. I have no reason to believe that they would lie to me. And anything he says to me now I take with a grain of salt. In fact suddlenly all I can see are lies in the past and the present. I will never fully believe anything he says ever again.

[Caramel]

I don't think my ex ever lied either Pavilion. He never lied, cheated or self- harmed. But always accused me of lying and cheating. That's why I also wonder sometimes if he was a BPD. Maybe he did not have the disorder but only had some traits.

My therapist suggested in one of the early sessions that my ex might have BPD but when I asked her later on that he didn't meet all the criteria she said that, number one it takes time  for all the symptoms to show, and number two I should let go of his diagnosis and try to figure out why I was attracted  and stayed in an abusive relationship. I think she was right.

What's for sure is that the relationship was crazy making enough to make  me question my own sanity and destructive enough to make me need to become a member of this board to get over it's aftermath.

I understand that you are curious to find out if he lied too but please don't. It's only going to hurt you more if he has and you've already got enough on your plate to deal with.

Take care of yourself. You don't need to hurt more than you already have.

[Infared]

I used to believe everything my BPDex said, while I was with him. I believed in giving him the benefit of the doubt. Plus some of the things he said were so troubling or outrageous, I thought there is no way he would make that up. For example, why would he tell me that two women have restraining orders against him? I was impressed by how forthcoming and open he was... .I was definitely very naive.

After the breakup, I found out some inconsistencies. I don't check on him on social media and I have very few interactions with people who know him. But two things stood out where it became very obvious that he lies. I ran into a friend of his, who told me that he claimed to her the reason we broke up was because I "desperately wanted a child" and he is not ready for that. A full blown lie. He is the one who kept asking me to have a baby with him.

Then I had a chance to speak to his ex wife. He claims he married her so she could get the greencard. He also insists that they are still married. I had a chance to talk to her one day and her version is: She didn't need the greencard, they were young and in love, and she insisted on marriage before sex. So he married her. She also says they have been divorced for years. "oh honey he signed the papers a long time ago. There is no way I could still be married to this guy". And she does have a restraining order against him. I guess that part is true.

After everything that happened, I chose to believe those two women over him, even thought I don't know them all that well. I have no reason to believe that they would lie to me. And anything he says to me now I take with a grain of salt. In fact suddlenly all I can see are lies in the past and the present. I will never fully believe anything he says ever again.

That is one of the reasons that keeps me in TOTAL NC. ... .if I see this person walking up to me somewhere... .I am so disgusted with the lies that "I know about" (God knows how many more there most definitely are), that I do not even want to hear one sentence. I was soo trusting and honest and faithful to this person... .and now I know that "hi" is somehow a lie. I just turn and walk away. Not easy... .but if I don't I am not loving me. Period.

[amigo]

I am envious about your ability for total NC. I am not there yet. Then again my ex doesn't bombard me with contact.

I found it funny that you feel that even a "hi" can be a lie. I was thinking how his last initiation of contact by text "how are you" is a lie too. After all, he pretends to want to know how I am, when really what he should write is "are you still there to give me narcissistic supply?". He doesn't give a s-it how I am.

[Infared]

I am envious about your ability for total NC. I am not there yet. Then again my ex doesn't bombard me with contact.

I found it funny that you feel that even a "hi" can be a lie. I was thinking how his last initiation of contact by text "how are you" is a lie too. After all, he pretends to want to know how I am, when really what he should write is "are you still there to give me narcissistic supply?". He doesn't give a s-it how I am.

amigo... it has taken me years. I was in so much pain I almost ended up like Robin Williams.  I just started laughing because I realized the last time my ex tried to say "hi" (yeah right)... .it WAS a lie. ... .she must have seen me in the checkout line at the supermarket (me clueless), she ran out of the store with a cartload of groceries and knew my car and where it was and ran all the way out past it and laid in wait to ambush me... .and when I came out she tried to act like she was accidentally running into me... .so it WAS A LIE!  LOL!... .

My immediate reaction was to lower my head in disgust (I was still clueless), speed up and do a giant arc around her.  (I figured it out after, my peripheral vision saw someone standing still and then start to move at me, duh... she had a cart full of groceries and was headed toward the store, AND after I dissed her, she gasped a big sigh and collapsed on her cart playing victim and when I totally ignored her giant drama she scurried off to her car 3 isles away. (BTW she is married to the guy she cheated on me with so she disrespected us both in one smooth, selfish move! YAY!)... .now she told me "all I needed to know" without me talking to her... she is still immature (45yrs-0ld), still manipulative, still selfish, and still a liar... .she was not accidentally running into me at all... .it was all a LIE!... .so "hi" WAS a "Lie".

Yes it upset me... .I am typing about it here, so that shows me that... .but I also am sharing with you that we can get better, take care of ourselves and avoid their sick selfish drama... even though underneath part of me still yearns for her... .I don't know why?

[amigo]

Yes, so crazy, that despite all this insanity, there is part of us that still craves them. I have read your story about the supermarket ambush before. Textbook behavior isn't it? And unbelievable strenght on your part to keep walking away.

Interesting you should bring up poor Robin Williams. I had not entertained any suicidal thoughts since I was a teenager, but after the BPD breakup, I had fantasies of using a belt that the BPD ex gave me as a very special gift (really the only personal gift he ever got me, on a trip together) and make a noose (sp?) out of it and end it all. I mean full blown teenage fantasies of "I will kill myself with your gift". I felt as if his insanity had infected me.

Sorry we are straying from the original thread. Like I said before, for me, definitely extreme naivite to believe he was honest. I was not a naive person to begin with, but now I am just weary and jaded.

[myself]

Looking back, it's easier to see how much of how she presented herself was fabrication. She admitted she lied about very important things, as well as minor. With me and others in her life. Who knows what else went on. She said she told me things she thought I wanted to hear (which was also somehow my fault, like the reasons for her other lies). She wasn't really who she said she was, at the beginning of our r/s, and she isn't who she says she is now, after it. We've all done it to some degree, but pwBPD seem to lie to themselves constantly. If you're that dishonest with yourself, how honest are you with anybody else? I wasn't naive, but it took awhile to see the truth.

[elessar]

She said she told me things she thought I wanted to hear (which was also somehow my fault, like the reasons for her other lies). She wasn't really who she said she was, at the beginning of our r/s, and she isn't who she says she is now, after it. We've all done it to some degree, but pwBPD seem to lie to themselves constantly.

So true buddy. Mine told me the exact same thing - that she became the person she thought I would like. I pleaded with her that "I never asked you to". So many BPDs have faced some sort of abuse or invalidation as children. Mine grew in a controlling and abusive family, where the only way she can get love and acceptance was by being what her parents wanted her to be. So when she came back into my life, she started dressing, talking, thinking, eating, drinking the way I was. We call it mirroring, but maybe they think they have to be that way so we will love them and not leave them. Eventually they realize they are not that person and leave us because they think "I changed myself for you, because I knew I couldn't be with you the way I was". That is exactly what she told me many times over the years. All my words of "I don't care who you are, as long as you are you" never mattered, because she honestly doesn't know who she is. She is either someone her parents would like, or someone I would like. Maybe now she is like her new guy would like. Maybe thats the reason behind all their lies, and maybe thats why they mirror everyone... .to get that approval and love which crave, which they never got unconditionally as a child.

[Infared]

Yes, so crazy, that despite all this insanity, there is part of us that still craves them. I have read your story about the supermarket ambush before. Textbook behavior isn't it? And unbelievable strenght on your part to keep walking away.

Interesting you should bring up poor Robin Williams. I had not entertained any suicidal thoughts since I was a teenager, but after the BPD breakup, I had fantasies of using a belt that the BPD ex gave me as a very special gift (really the only personal gift he ever got me, on a trip together) and make a noose (sp?) out of it and end it all. I mean full blown teenage fantasies of "I will kill myself with your gift". I felt as if his insanity had infected me.

Sorry we are straying from the original thread. Like I said before, for me, definitely extreme naivite to believe he was honest. I was not a naive person to begin with, but now I am just weary and jaded.

Yes, Amigo... .they are sick and stay sick. Its a disease that tells you that you do not have a disease... but I believe most of it is just such conscious manipulating.  Like the supermarket thing... .(I am assuming)... her husband is sitting at home. Clueless about the giant effort she went thru to "run in" to me. ... .and guess what... .if she makes it an accidental run-in... then its "just an accident"" right?

So she does not have to take ANY responsibility for making contact and then the WHOLE encounter is on my emotional dime! She is totally aware of this as she plays her little game.  She doesn't have to apologize, admit any of her lies, etc. ... because... its an "accident".  She can just work her angle... whatever self-centered approach she has for the whole event... .totally thought about beforehand and calculated... .Hell... she could have seen me on the road and followed me to the store for all I know!   Then... .I bet my nines on this... .she went home... and told this story to get his radar and fear up... and oh... she could play victim AGAIN.

(all sad... hurt victim)... "honey... .I passed "blank" in the supermarket this evening and he was rude to me and ignored me!".

I guarantee you that went down. No doubt!  So sick.

About the other part: I had soo much pain... .I did not want to live anymore... .it was GodAwful!... .came in waves... . I got a T and a self help group, people I could call that understood. They saved my life... .I truly believe it. Substance abuse is in my story, too... .but I didn't do that... .I decided that I wanted to live and there are so many places we can get help.  That is why I find the Michael Jackson, Robin William stories soo soo sad... .WE CAN GET HELP.  These days we are surrounded by it... we just have to want to reach out.

BPD brings a person like me to that place. I have to say... enough is enough... then I can start getting better. You can too!  I am not ever going to say it is easy... .but we can... and coming here and being honest is a great place to process your feelings... .to others that have been thru this and at the very least you know that you are not alone in what happened.

[Vatz]

I honestly don't want to think about some of her lies.

There's this one thing, that had me thinking. Now that I'm thinking about it though, I'm pretty sure there was a whole lot of cheating. I'm pretty sure I caught her having phone sex with some guy while I was visiting her. I say more like 100% certain,  because we're sitting together, watching something. She gets a call, leaves the room. When I check after 15 mins of waiting, I find her under her covers in her bedroom, face all red. Two things went on in my head, I felt awful, and extremely aroused. Yup, weird. The worst part is, I'm open to a lot of stuff. I'd have probably been okay if I was there and participated. But it was actually really painful because... .

-This wasn't just some stranger she'd never talk to often or even meet. Also it was on the phone, so that's not so bad. But there was a connection, and it was an emotional affair that had probably been going on for some time. That alone is painful.

-She was hiding it and lying through her teeth when I knew precisely what she did. All she would have had to do (assuming this *wasn't* an emotional affair) was smile and call me over. I'd have taken care of business with her, even if she was "performing" for someone on the phone. My blood was already boiling and in the heat of the moment, I'm ready to go.  It's how I'm wired. I did a lot of work to figure out why I was *really* hurt by the whole thing. It wasn't that she did it, it's that I was totally excluded. There are things I'll never be okay with, but this under the right circumstances would have been perfectly fine. But it wasn't the right circumstances, it was all the wrong ones.

-It was on *OUR* time together. She walked off and forgot about me. I felt terribly rejected. I felt like she was outright snubbing me for someone else, may as well have told me to go home because her other boyfriend was coming over, it's *THAT* level of pain. It's basically where she twisted the knife, and why it's unforgivable. Being rejected by the very person who claims to love you hurts much more than just some stranger.

So what does this have to do with lying? She lied about having done what she did, and probably lied about other instances. Eventually she came clean that it wasn't even just that one guy she was having an LDR with, there was another as well. There's a good chance that the entire time we were together, she was also with someone else. I suppose I couldn't trust her further than I could throw her.

Lesson learned, but now I'm not sure I can trust another again. Also, after all these experiences I'm realizing that there was so much I'd have been open to if she just approached me right and actually respected my boundaries, as in the things I wouldn't have been okay with. If I wasn't okay with things she considered insignificant I was close-minded. She lacked any sort of patience.