Abandonment Question

[Flora73]

Hello All,

With BPD, is the BPD's fear of abandonment just the fear of "you" abandoning or is it a amalgamation of all experiences in life where abandonment was experienced in the BPD's life.


i.e. present partner abandonment or past abandonment.

I hope that makes sense.

many thanks

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[waverider]

Its an ingrained personality trait, pwBPD's behavior in itself often causes abandonment and thus reinforces it.

They often perceive (as it is not always the truth) a long history of either being abandoned (people give up on them) or being bullied (people fighting back) as a consequence of the lack of boundaries and often abrasive nature.

Often people who are claimed to have abandoned them, or bullied them, are completely oblivious to the accusation. It is in fact often the pwBPD who has done the abandoning or bullying (ie they can project the behavior on to others)

[Crumbling]

Hi, Flora

Waverider is much more versed in this topic, and I see where my BPDh perceives situations as threatening when in fact there is no real threat.  (i.e. I complain his doesn't pick up after himself, and he hears "I hate you because you are a total slob" and assumes I'm going to leave him because he is completely intolerable.)  But I offer my situation to add insight perhaps to the idea that the past can haunt the present... .

For my BPDh, abandonment has been an ongoing issue in his life.  As a child, his dad and mom separated when he was very young (too young to remember), and he stayed with his drug-addicted mom.  Her parents helped with his rearing as much as they could.  By the time he was in his late twenties, his grandparents had passed on.  By the time he was in his late thirties, both his mom and dad had passed on.  He has no brothers or sisters.  So today he feels alone and abandoned by his whole family.

He also claims that he was bullied in school from grade 2 up to grade 9, with no one to stick up for him and fight for him, or to even show him how to fight back.

I guess the question becomes a chicken or egg scenario... .which came first?  I don't have the answer, all I know is that constant and complete reassurance is the only thing I can offer him and even then, it only sometimes means something to him.  Other times he is so wrapped up in self pity, that nothing makes a difference.

Hope this helps.

[maxsterling]

Flora -

My thoughts on this are that abandonment doesn't have to be real or based on any past event or observation.  For you and I, our feelings are based on observations - our sensory inputs.  Observation ---> Feeling ---> Reaction.  For pwBPD, I think it doesn't work that way.  For them it is Feeling ---> Observation biased towards the feeling ---> Reaction.  A feeling is a biochemical mechanism in the brain.  In their case, they feel something, look for evidence to explain why they feel some way, and react based upon that.  To some extent, I think we all have feeling-based observations, but as nons we usually recognize the irrationality of the situation and then our feelings and reactions are modified based upon our rational thought.  pwBPD can get stuck in the same distortion forever. 

In pwBPD, I think the abandonment feeling is really rooted in not having a stable sense of self. They don't have a good feeling about who they are.  They are entirely dependent upon external things to define who they are, whereas you and I have a natural feeling about who we are.  That means, the pwBPD is always having a biochemical activity that makes him/her feel uncomfortable and empty, and when the external environment changes, he or she will blame the external environment for causing this feeling.  The feeling of emptiness is already there because of their brain wiring and chemistry.  So the "abandonment" is the external validation of that biochemical signal.  That's why to us, it doesn't make sense. 

I've heard that most pwBPD have had some kind of trauma in childhood associated with losing someone.  My fiancé did.  But there are plenty of other non-BPD people who had parents divorce, abusive parents, or death of a loved one who don't develop BPD.  My fiancé had both - parents divorcing when she was young, raised by abusive mom until she was about 10, then shipped to live with her dad when her mom went to jail.  However, the "abandonment" events my fiancé claims are pervasive in her history seem to mostly be stories of simple breakups, other people enforcing boundaries, or involved her abandoning someone.  It seems like in some cases she feels abandoned by relationships that she actually ended.  For example, she chose end a friendship with a long time friend based upon this friend's behavior.  Yet, she lumps this friend into her list of friends who "abandoned her".  She justifies this feeling as the friend causing the abandonment because of the way the friend was behaving. 

So my feeling on this topic is that the abandonment fear really isn't based upon either the present partner or past partners - it's simply a feeling that they have and may not be rooted in experiences.  Past experiences reinforce the feeling, but they don't cause it. 

[waverider]

Just adding to what Max says a pwBPD can retrospectively apply their feelings. Their memories are like a memory bank of snapshots and quotes. Their feelings of today are then applied to these components to reassemble the plot line. Hence if they feel abandoned now they can reassemble the past as abandonment in order to validate the feeling of now.

When their mood swings these same memory components can be reassembled to validate whatever emotion they have now.

In short they they can use their own flexible "reality" to create their own unhealthy supporting evidence for feeling however they do. "My life is not worth living/I can do anything"

[Crumbling]

Is it ever sad the way you describe it... .like they are stuck in a cycle of self destruction. :'(

Where does self control fit in to all this?  Is it just non-existent?  Where does the power to choose go?  Where is logic and reason?  Is it a brain chemistry thing that keeps them repeating self-destructive behaviours? 

I just find it very bizarre to imagine that there could be is no cause and no real reason for the feelings, and yet they dominate the person.  I can see the connection between abandonment fears and my BPDh's past, so I assumed present scenarios trigger past feeling for him.  Feelings that belong to a child, and hence his child-like behaviours.

If it is strictly emotional turmoil because of brain chemistry, why then don't the meds fix everything?

[MaybeSo]

If you are really interested in this area, and the research on this, I would highly suggest you watch the following videos with Dr. Allan Schore of UCLA as he talks about early childhood attachment, BPD, trauma and suicidality.  

www.psychalive.org/video-playlist-dr-allan-schore/

This is where the research is going, with an emphasis on how early attachment experience can make a huge impact on the developing brain and set up a life long trajectory for borderline etc.  I also recommend Stan Tatkin’s work with couples (he studied with Alan Schore) : a psychobiological approach to couples therapy. Much of this does show up at a biological level, it’s not just psychological…that empty feeling for example has to do with the vagus nerve that runs down the middle of the body (feels like a broken heart). When babies do not securely attach as infants…bottom line, it can and does have a very big impact on your experience of the world going forward.  Secure attachment is what sets up the ability to regulate distressing emotional dictates (manage your own intense emotional states).  PWBPD don’t do that well…and this correlates to their insecure attachment style.  

[Crumbling]

Thanks for the link, will I read it? Maybeso, thank you I will!javascript:void(0);

sorry couldn't resist.

[Crumbling]

"watch" it, I mean not read it!

 

[JohnLove]

Flora -

My thoughts on this are that abandonment doesn't have to be real or based on any past event or observation.  For you and I, our feelings are based on observations - our sensory inputs.  Observation ---> Feeling ---> Reaction.  For pwBPD, I think it doesn't work that way.  For them it is Feeling ---> Observation biased towards the feeling ---> Reaction.  A feeling is a biochemical mechanism in the brain. 

If it is strictly emotional turmoil because of brain chemistry, why then don't the meds fix everything?

While maxsterling has a great understanding and pretty amazing insight of the disorder and his posts have been very helpful to me I will say that the spiritual aspect of this disorder has been completely removed. We are not just biomechanical beings. I can hear body, mind... .but where is spirit?.

As you suspect Crumbling if we were just brain "chemicals" there would probably be a wonder drink or pill that would cure everything.

Modern medicine completely denies the spiritual aspect of our existence. Every pharmaceutical is toxic to the body. Indeed they may be twisted into something that can be perceived as "helpful" but don't fool oneself into thinking they are not toxic.

A question for everybody.

Where do you think a "sense of self" comes from?. The human DNA has been fully mapped out. Biological functions are unquestionable. They can be measured with our technology. Regions of the brain have been explored in great detail. Electrical activity in the brain can be measured with incredible accuracy. Scientists have found what regions of the brain are responsible for almost all bodily functions.

A Neuroscientist can tell us what part of the brain can wiggle our pinky finger but can they tell us what "impulse" is directing the movement?. As in "who" or "what" is directing that part of the brain?. No they cannot. Good luck with that one. That is who WE are. That is SPIRIT!.

Ignore it at your own peril.

Wishing everyone the best.

[maxsterling]

JohnLove - excellent comment.  I was raised in a Christian belief system, but interestingly I don't think I truly became "spiritual" until I strayed from the structured church and contemplated life on my own.  I would say my spiritual self has helped keep me level and happy the past decade or so.  It's hard to describe, but I view life as having meaning, see beauty in everything, yet can simultaneously see despair in everything.  As I have gotten older, I have become increasingly able to see things in a spiritual sense, (despite my career in science).

I was recently talking to a friend about what is going on in my life, and spirituality, and the meaning of things.  This friend pointed out that my fiancé would feel better if she found religion. This friend is somewhat evangelical Christian, and I think was somewhat referring to my fiancé finding Jesus, but I think the point is broader - that my fiancé seems to lack a spiritual sense.  And I think that spiritual sense *is* the identity that the pwBPD lacks.  I'm not sure how to describe it, but I think maybe it's that feeling we know we are alive and that is special in itself,  and life has purpose and that purpose is good by definition.  Spirituality is a sense of ones place in the universe, and is the basis for faith.  Not necessarily faith in a gray bearded God amongst the clouds, but faith in that we are a small part of something that makes sense.   

I don't think my fiancé has that.  To her, life is just a bunch of stuff that happens, and she has no way of knowing whether it is good or bad.  She's gone the route of "if it feels good it must be good" before, only to walk down the path of personal destruction time and time again.  And she has no faith that life and people are good and not existing for the purpose of making her miserable.  Even when we talk about having children - her statements almost sound like she wants a child "for something to do", whereas I see having a child on a much more spiritual level - that I think life is a pretty awesome thing and I would want to propagate and share that awesome thing with the next generation.

[MaybeSo]

Where do you think a "sense of self" comes from?.





A sense of self comes from being loved via an attachment bond with caregivers.

How we experience attachment (love) affects both our biology and our psychology and our environment and our genetics.

neuroscientists and spitual thinkers and philosophers are beginning to agree on that. this is specifically addressed in the interview with the doctor in the link above.

[vortex of confusion]

I was recently talking to a friend about what is going on in my life, and spirituality, and the meaning of things.  This friend pointed out that my fiancé would feel better if she found religion. This friend is somewhat evangelical Christian, and I think was somewhat referring to my fiancé finding Jesus, but I think the point is broader - that my fiancé seems to lack a spiritual sense.  And I think that spiritual sense *is* the identity that the pwBPD lacks.  I'm not sure how to describe it, but I think maybe it's that feeling we know we are alive and that is special in itself,  and life has purpose and that purpose is good by definition.  Spirituality is a sense of ones place in the universe, and is the basis for faith.  Not necessarily faith in a gray bearded God amongst the clouds, but faith in that we are a small part of something that makes sense.   

I had a bunch of different thoughts after reading this. My spouse grew up in a very religious home. He even entered a monastery and was a monk for two years. He reads the office of the hours every day. He reads all sorts of stuff about religion and philosophy and spirituality. From all appearances, he has a very rich spiritual life. I don't know if he lacks a spiritual identity or if he struggles with having his spiritual identity assigned to him by his parents through out childhood. In talking to him about spiritual matters, he has admitted that he struggles with figuring out his own identity. He disagrees with a lot of the teachings of his church but at the same time he still reads about those teachings. It is like he is afraid to think for himself about religion and spiritual matters.

From my point of view, he can intellectualize those and spout them off but he has no idea how to put anything into practice in his personal life. He used to go on and on about his vocation to be married yet his actions never really aligned with all of the things that he has said. It is like he has no idea who he is and simply tries to be what everyone wants him to be. He knows that he has problems and is always trying to read stuff for improvement but it seems that his reading is more about looking for a set of rules to follow than it is about figuring out actually make any lasting changes. He can read a book and change for a little but seems to fall back into old patterns.

I also think some of his abandonment issues stem from the fact that he grew up in such a religious home. The message was "If you don't do x, y, z and a, b, c, God is going to abandon you and you are going to hell." I am just guessing but I wonder if some of the fear of abandonment stems from that existential angst between the apparently conflicting messages where, on one hand, God is loving and forgiving, while at the same time being vengeful. I studied the teachings of his church and tried to learn more about it as an attempt to get closer to him. It failed but it did show me how many rules had to be followed in order to be "good".

[JohnLove]

Where do you think a "sense of self" comes from?.





A sense of self comes from being loved via an attachment bond with caregivers.

How we experience attachment (love) affects both our biology and our psychology and our environment and our genetics.

neuroscientists and spitual thinkers and philosophers are beginning to agree on that. this is specifically addressed in the interview with the doctor in the link above.

Hello MaybeSo, I believe that's where a sense of self can begin in a very young child. What if a child does not have that?... .can they never know themselves?... .or is that the beginning of BPD?.

Attachment is not love. Attachment is attachment. Although I do agree with what you say regarding attachment except maybe that it affects our environment. Our environment just is. I do not know how that can be "affected" by our attachment except possibly our perception of it.

I am no guru... .but I have been a spiritual thinker for most of my life. I am also an electronics technician and have a very strong belief in science and logic. I do not entirely agree. Does the spiritual recluse living in the himalayan mountains not know himself?... .or when he "comes down from the mountain" does he have a very strong and unwavering sense of self?... .and could care less about what others (outside himself) think of him?.

Does self realisation and knowing oneself come from the heart, from God, from orthodox religion, or from others around you?. I could be wrong but I believe I know the answer to this.

My sense of self has been severely rattled by my relationships with pwBPD when I have relied on a attachment bond with them. I have always come back to me... .for understanding... .for forgiveness... .for my sanity. My sense of self is derived from a feeling and a "knowing" based on my core beliefs.

The link you posted is missing.