The Subtlety of Gaslightning

[Depression = 72% of members]

Today I had another lightbulb moment. I read something in the internet about gaslightning. I was looking back on my relationship with my uBPDex and I saw how the fog disappears. There was a lot of gaslightning, but it was so subtle, she came up with it so slowly, it was nearly impossible for me to see it.

In the beginning of our relationship she told me about her life and said once in a while "You don't listen to me." I could repeat everything she said and it was OK. After a while she started to talk nonsense to check, if I'm still listening. Phrases like "I was at my mothers house and she started to cry, because the blue frog jumped over the rainbow." I said "What?" And she answered, that I never listen to her. I said, that I'm listening all the time and repeated the nonsense. And she said: "Just now you are listening, but yesterday I used the same nonsense phrase and you didn't recognize it." That was still in the idealisation phase and I hung on every word she said. I was so in love and I couldn't believe, that I was distracted the day before. But I also couldn't believe, that she was lying to me. I started to mistrust my own memory. It was so subtle, I never thought about it, but it was so effective. I thought I lose my mind.

I think this subtle kind of gaslightning is more dangerous than the silent treatment. The silent treatment is also subtle and hurting, but you still feel the pain. Gaslightning makes you crazy without feeling any pain.

[Maternus]

Today I had another lightbulb moment. I read something in the internet about gaslightning. I was looking back on my relationship with my uBPDex and I saw how the fog disappears. There was a lot of gaslightning, but it was so subtle, she came up with it so slowly, it was nearly impossible for me to see it.

In the beginning of our relationship she told me about her life and said once in a while "You don't listen to me." I could repeat everything she said and it was OK. After a while she started to talk nonsense to check, if I'm still listening. Phrases like "I was at my mothers house and she started to cry, because the blue frog jumped over the rainbow." I said "What?" And she answered, that I never listen to her. I said, that I'm listening all the time and repeated the nonsense. And she said: "Just now you are listening, but yesterday I used the same nonsense phrase and you didn't recognize it." That was still in the idealisation phase and I hung on every word she said. I was so in love and I couldn't believe, that I was distracted the day before. But I also couldn't believe, that she was lying to me. I started to mistrust my own memory. It was so subtle, I never thought about it, but it was so effective. I thought I lose my mind.

I think this subtle kind of gaslightning is more dangerous than the silent treatment. The silent treatment is also subtle and hurting, but you still feel the pain. Gaslightning makes you crazy without feeling any pain.

[Blimblam]

My experience with gas lighting was a bit different.  It was closely linked with push pull behavior.   

What you are describing sounds like she was begining to have self doubts so she began to test your attachment.  My exs gas lighting came after that phase.  I do remember that phase and it is when my ex became really insecure because she felt abandoned by me.  During this time she began seeking back up attachments and lying about it that is when the gaslighting ocured. 

It sounds like the initial abamdonment fear had already been triggered and she began to resent you for it.

[Technique]

My experience with gas lighting was a bit different.  It was closely linked with push pull behavior.  What you are describing sounds like she was begining to have self doubts so she began to test your attachment.  My exs gas lighting came after that phase.  I do remember that phase and it is when my ex became really insecure because she felt abandoned by me.  During this time she began seeking back up attachments and lying about it that is when the gaslighting ocured. 

Exactly the same here...

[Blimblam]

I wanted to mention that the push pull behavior is linked to the fear of engulfment and fear of abandonment.  From my experience the behavior you describe comes because those fears have been innitially triggered and and my ex was looking for a way to unload these overwhelming emotions she couldn't handle.  So she did this through projective identification.  Which begins as an internal process within herself where she begins to feel persecutes by me for triggering these fears in her and she overcomes this by looking for reasons to validate that it is indeed me that is at fault so she can compartmentalize this pain into the idea of me that she can them become critical of.  It is a complex ego defense mechenism.

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification

[HappyNihilist]

But I also couldn't believe, that she was lying to me. I started to mistrust my own memory. It was so subtle, I never thought about it, but it was so effective. I thought I lose my mind.

You're right, Maternus. This is exactly what gaslighting is -- making someone doubt their own memory, perception, sanity, reality.

And yes, it is very subtle - especially in the beginning of the relationship. It's one way the disordered person sets a precedent for the "non" to look to the disordered person for the definition of reality.

It is devastating and painful. When we can no longer trust our own perceptions, what do we have?

[SlyQQ]

Once you start letting them re write history u open the door to a world of pain they often soften u up by sleep deprivation or some other stress factors so you are less likely to question them is best to wait till something you are 100% sure of then use this to debunk the rest or their future attempts 

[raisins3142]

Mine gaslighted relatively subtly by:

1. constantly shifting stories about past/present so that she was lying but not in a super obvious way, just always leaving me confused, when I called her on it, she had some excuse/got defensive

2. getting defensive, turning things around on me, and then acquiescing later only somewhat... .it was more important to impulsively defend herself than to understand where I was coming from or what or why I felt something or thought something

3. making it seem that my angry response to her behavior was just as bad as the original thing she did, so she did something that hurt me, I would get emotional, and that proved it was half my fault somehow, when she was the one that precipitated things

4. rewriting common behaviors or twisting... .for instance, she was overly private with her phone, and never offhandedly mentioned who she was texting etc... .she defended herself by saying that her two (crazy) friends do the same thing to her... .but she isn't dating them and also if they are good friends and they never offhandedly mention a conversation they are in in someone's presence then that is bizarre... .it is very common for friends to get a text and say "oh that is so and so texting, they want me to stop by tomorrow for lunch"... .she got 1,000 texts in my presence and I never asked who was texting but she never once volunteered any info... .she thought that that type of weird behavior is normal... .and it just isn't... .maybe she had no normal people she was close to... .but I don't buy it

[jedimaster]

I wish I had known what gaslighting was years ago.  At least with my uBPDw there is no "allowing" her to rewrite history.  She simply doesn't accept any other reality than her own, even in the face of physical evidence.  I can't describe the feeling of relief when I discovered that I could indeed trust my own perception of reality, and hers was the problem.

She even went to far as to try to convince me that I had early-onset Alzheimer's disease.  Any time I disagreed with her version of reality, it was my "EOAD" acting up again, causing me to misremember things!  

The ironic thing is that in an attempt to pacify her, I agreed to go see my family doctor, who said she didn't see any memory issues, but if there were it could be stress.  Which led me into therapy to help with the stress, which led me to discover that she was the one with personality issues!  Thanks to her diagnosing me with "EOAD," I finally found out where the true problem lies.  

[going places]

Today I had another lightbulb moment. I read something in the internet about gaslightning. I was looking back on my relationship with my uBPDex and I saw how the fog disappears. There was a lot of gaslightning, but it was so subtle, she came up with it so slowly, it was nearly impossible for me to see it.

In the beginning of our relationship she told me about her life and said once in a while "You don't listen to me." I could repeat everything she said and it was OK. After a while she started to talk nonsense to check, if I'm still listening. Phrases like "I was at my mothers house and she started to cry, because the blue frog jumped over the rainbow." I said "What?" And she answered, that I never listen to her. I said, that I'm listening all the time and repeated the nonsense. And she said: "Just now you are listening, but yesterday I used the same nonsense phrase and you didn't recognize it." That was still in the idealisation phase and I hung on every word she said. I was so in love and I couldn't believe, that I was distracted the day before. But I also couldn't believe, that she was lying to me. I started to mistrust my own memory. It was so subtle, I never thought about it, but it was so effective. I thought I lose my mind.

I think this subtle kind of gaslightning is more dangerous than the silent treatment. The silent treatment is also subtle and hurting, but you still feel the pain. Gaslightning makes you crazy without feeling any pain.

I was on the receiving end of this same gaslighting AND the silent treatment.

He would get me to a point where I would be 90% convinced that he was right and I was wrong (even if it was in print... .and any body who can read could clearly see that he was full of it and I was right) then when I tried to explain, ONE MORE TIME that it's "right here in print, see"... .then he would shut down. Dead silence.

Sometimes for D-A-Y-S.

At first, I would welcome the silence... .then the pouting, sulking, death stares OR the purposefully looking away (with the intention of hurting my feelings)... .I couldn't hack it. So I would do whatever it took to make him 'happy' so this would stop.

He took me to the edge of destruction.

He and a 'Biblical Counselor' had me convinced everything was my fault, and if I told anyone, or brought it up to the ex, or if *I* even thought about it? That I was an unforgiving person... .and God does not forgive, unforgiving people.

This went on for a year... .until I cracked and confided in my doctor.

It almost killed me.

Gaslighting and Silent Treatment are evil. Period.

[FigureIt]

Once you start letting them re write history u open the door

to a world of pain they often soften u up by sleep

deprivation or some other stress factors  so you are less likely

to question them is best to wait till something you are 100% sure of then

use this to debunk the rest or their future attempts

When you know they are gaslighting how do you question it?

Ex. yesterday when I got home after work I snowblowed the driveway since my uBPDbf had worked a long day.  When he came home he didn't say a word about it not even a "Thanx."  So, this morning I after getting up and showering I said "Good morning, Love You, You're welcome for the driveway."  His response was "I said Thank you... ."  NOW, I KNOW FOR A FACT he did not!  Very calmly, relaxed and non-aggitated, I just said, "Oh well you didn't say it out loud or to me."  And then I went on and finished my morning routine.

[Maternus]

She even went to far as to try to convince me that I had early-onset Alzheimer's disease.  Any time I disagreed with her version of reality, it was my "EOAD" acting up again, causing me to misremember things!

Mine did something similar, but she 'diagnosed' me with ADD. They really know how to unsettle you.

[Targeted]

ADD! . I have to laugh, my ex said the same thing, she tied it to her insecurity with other women, she said that I check out every woman that walks by and I cannot stay focused on her therefore my short attention span means I have ADD. she even turned her cheating around on me with her theory that because I drink a few beers I am a severe alcoholic and alcoholics are significantly prone to cheating!    I never cheated but guess who did? It is amazing though how her constant Gaslighting made me feel that I had to defend myself for being all of these things that IM not.

[raisins3142]

I told my uBPDexgf a story once about how my dad (before I was even born) was reticent for my mom to go to college because he was not educated and thought she might meet someone and leave him.

After I did not like my uBPDexgf flirting with other men in front of me, guess who was a misogynist, viewed ALL women (not just her) negatively, and was just like my dad in that story (bringing it up)?  You guessed it.

Makes me mad.  It's like she did not even know me at all.

[mywifecrazy]

Once you start letting them re write history u open the door

to a world of pain they often soften u up by sleep

deprivation or some other stress factors  so you are less likely

to question them is best to wait till something you are 100% sure of then

use this to debunk the rest or their future attempts

When you know they are gaslighting how do you question it?

Ex. yesterday when I got home after work I snowblowed the driveway since my uBPDbf had worked a long day.  When he came home he didn't say a word about it not even a "Thanx."  So, this morning I after getting up and showering I said "Good morning, Love You, You're welcome for the driveway."  His response was "I said Thank you... ."  NOW, I KNOW FOR A FACT he did not!  Very calmly, relaxed and non-aggitated, I just said, "Oh well you didn't say it out loud or to me."  And then I went on and finished my morning routine.

I'm sorry but that's funny. Sometimes you just have to laugh. I applaud you for keeping your cool!

MWC... "

[Boss302]

Today I had another lightbulb moment. I read something in the internet about gaslightning. I was looking back on my relationship with my uBPDex and I saw how the fog disappears. There was a lot of gaslightning, but it was so subtle, she came up with it so slowly, it was nearly impossible for me to see it.

In the beginning of our relationship she told me about her life and said once in a while "You don't listen to me." I could repeat everything she said and it was OK. After a while she started to talk nonsense to check, if I'm still listening. Phrases like "I was at my mothers house and she started to cry, because the blue frog jumped over the rainbow." I said "What?" And she answered, that I never listen to her. I said, that I'm listening all the time and repeated the nonsense. And she said: "Just now you are listening, but yesterday I used the same nonsense phrase and you didn't recognize it." That was still in the idealisation phase and I hung on every word she said. I was so in love and I couldn't believe, that I was distracted the day before. But I also couldn't believe, that she was lying to me. I started to mistrust my own memory. It was so subtle, I never thought about it, but it was so effective. I thought I lose my mind.

I think this subtle kind of gaslightning is more dangerous than the silent treatment. The silent treatment is also subtle and hurting, but you still feel the pain. Gaslightning makes you crazy without feeling any pain.

Well, it's gaslighting and the oh-so-wondrous BPD trait that no matter what you do FOR them, it's never, ever enough. You could recite her words back verbatim and she'd still say you don't listen.

Why? Because her emotions are so changeable and chaotic that what makes her happy one minute won't the next.

You have to truly come to believe that you did your best to do right by her in all things. Once you do that, gaslighting won't work.

I've come to the realization that us "nons' get in these relationships for a reason. BPDs tend very emotionally perceptive and can usually read people quite well. When my uBPDx met me, I bet her "potential co-dependent and future caretaker" alarms were sounding quite clearly. So... .she made ME feel secure at first, and then spent 17 years depriving me of it. You try so desperately to hold on to what made you feel good at first, until at some point you've switched to a virtual wet nurse.

[Boss302]

She even went to far as to try to convince me that I had early-onset Alzheimer's disease.  Any time I disagreed with her version of reality, it was my "EOAD" acting up again, causing me to misremember things!

Mine did something similar, but she 'diagnosed' me with ADD. They really know how to unsettle you.

Mine blamed me leaving her partially on not taking anti-depressants anymore. Her argument to everyone (court included) was "he's off his meds." My depression was situational (illness and death of my father), so I didn't need them per se once I began to heal up from his loss.

Funny thing, once I did stop taking them, I saw things a LOT more clearly, and realized how bad my situation had gotten. The unfortunate side effect of anti-depressants is that they allow you to "cope" with awful circumstances, when what you should be doing is changing them.

[Elpis]

I remember the day i walked into my therapist's office and said "I feel like I'm being gaslighted!" was the day she suggested i read the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells." I can't even remember the exact reason i felt that way, but i knew that somehow i was being made to feel crazy and distrustful of my own perceptions.

She also told me, "when you feel crazy that means there's a lie in there somewhere." So i started learning to look for what i knew wasn't true in what he was saying. That plus reading the book started me on the road to learning about what i was dealing with.

It seemed like all things ramped up when i started trying to find my old self again and stand up for that person, it brought on the fear of abandonment. And it seemed just like this, now that i look back at it!

I wanted to mention that the push pull behavior is linked to the fear of engulfment and fear of abandonment.  From my experience the behavior you describe comes because those fears have been innitially triggered and and my ex was looking for a way to unload these overwhelming emotions she couldn't handle.  So she did this through projective identification.  Which begins as an internal process within herself where she begins to feel persecutes by me for triggering these fears in her and she overcomes this by looking for reasons to validate that it is indeed me that is at fault so she can compartmentalize this pain into the idea of me that she can them become critical of.  It is a complex ego defense mechenism.

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification

i identify with so many things that have been brought up here--Raisins said that thing about being made to feel like your response was just as bad as whatever started the fight--oh my goodness, that is so true for my r/s too.

and never being able to actually do "Enough." Blecch.

[SlyQQ]

 

 Once you start letting them re write history u open the door to a world of pain they often soften u up by sleep deprivation or some other stress factors so you are less likely to question them is best to wait till something you are 100% sure of then use this to debunk the rest or their future attempts  

When you know they are gaslighting how do you question it?

Ex. yesterday when I got home after work I snowblowed the driveway since my uBPDbf had worked a long day. When he came home he didn't say a word about it not even a "Thanx." So, this morning I after getting up and showering I said "Good morning, Love You, You're welcome for the driveway." His response was "I said Thank you... ." NOW, I KNOW FOR A FACT he did not! Very calmly, relaxed and non-aggitated, I just said, "Oh well you didn't say it out loud or to me." And then I went on and finished my morning routine. 

Next time he tries to gaslight you , you can calmly respond you have been wrong berfore ( everyone is wrong about something sometime even BPDs ) then wave off his responses even with a it doesnt matter ( the thing is you have made your point )

[Gonzalo]

Mine used my pre-existing (and well-managed before I ran into her) depression and anxiety as a weapon, together with my hesitation to talk because of explosive arguments. At first this started with her 'helpfully' trying to blame her issues on me, and escalated to her insisting I go to therapy with her. This came to a head when I was taking anxiety meds, and she would say something unreasonable, then when I would talk back she'd say 'did you take your medicine today'? That was really the straw that broke the camel's back, I told her that she would NOT use my medication against me (and she backpedaled about how she was just concerned), and then I started really paying attention to the crazymaking and calling her out on it. I think that pushed her into more push pull and testing, which led to the high stress final few weeks before her last breakup with me.

And even after the breakup, she kept wanting me to take the blame, to say that I was unreasonable and terrible at communicating.

Funny thing, once I did stop taking them, I saw things a LOT more clearly, and realized how bad my situation had gotten. The unfortunate side effect of anti-depressants is that they allow you to "cope" with awful circumstances, when what you should be doing is changing them.

I wasn't on antidepressants, but the techniques I learned for keeping depression and anxiety at bay worked perfectly at keeping real concerns about the relationship at bay. Because I loved her and put the relationship inside my 'air defense zone', I would mentally shoot down a lot of legitimate concerns the same way I would thoughts like 'oh, you're not good enough'. Interestingly, her directly attacking some of those techniques, like explaining problems as temporary and external instead of permanent and bound to us, actually made me more aware that the problems were real. I don't think she realized that she was helping me to see that I needed to leave the relationship by doing that, she just wanted me to take the blame.

[FigureIt]

Once you start letting them re write history u open the door

to a world of pain they often soften u up by sleep

deprivation or some other stress factors  so you are less likely

to question them is best to wait till something you are 100% sure of then

use this to debunk the rest or their future attempts

When you know they are gaslighting how do you question it?

Ex. yesterday when I got home after work I snowblowed the driveway since my uBPDbf had worked a long day.  When he came home he didn't say a word about it not even a "Thanx."  So, this morning I after getting up and showering I said "Good morning, Love You, You're welcome for the driveway."  His response was "I said Thank you... ."  NOW, I KNOW FOR A FACT he did not!  Very calmly, relaxed and non-aggitated, I just said, "Oh well you didn't say it out loud or to me."  And then I went on and finished my morning routine.

I'm sorry but that's funny. Sometimes you just have to laugh. I applaud you for keeping your cool!

MWC... "

It is comical!  Before I found this website and figured it out, I really thought sometimes I was going crazy.  Because he would swear something was said or happened.

[Zon]

Mine gaslighted relatively subtly by:

1. constantly shifting stories about past/present so that she was lying but not in a super obvious way, just always leaving me confused, when I called her on it, she had some excuse/got defensive

Mine is really good at that.  She even applies it within MC.  When the counselor asked me how I felt about something she was talking about, I had to say I was confused since she had jumped back and forth within time on a particular issue type.  I even said at the end of the session that it felt like her past hurts were pulled into the present.

2. getting defensive, turning things around on me, and then acquiescing later only somewhat... .it was more important to impulsively defend herself than to understand where I was coming from or what or why I felt something or thought something

Ditto.  Mine will bring out her "Laundry List" of past hurts and wallop me with them.  The list only grows.

One thing my wife does is to claim she did not say something even if just a mistake of a word.  She gets very defensive.  I was questioning my memory, which is not the greatest in the first place, until my daughter started telling Mommy that she heard what I heard. 

3. making it seem that my angry response to her behavior was just as bad as the original thing she did, so she did something that hurt me, I would get emotional, and that proved it was half my fault somehow, when she was the one that precipitated things

I gave up getting angry in her presence long ago.  I am working on a better outlet.  I swear at the walls outside her reach.  At least, I get no backtalk.   

4. rewriting common behaviors or twisting... .for instance, she was overly private with her phone, and never offhandedly mentioned who she was texting etc... .she defended herself by saying that her two (crazy) friends do the same thing to her... .but she isn't dating them and also if they are good friends and they never offhandedly mention a conversation they are in in someone's presence then that is bizarre... .it is very common for friends to get a text and say "oh that is so and so texting, they want me to stop by tomorrow for lunch"... .she got 1,000 texts in my presence and I never asked who was texting but she never once volunteered any info... .she thought that that type of weird behavior is normal... .and it just isn't... .maybe she had no normal people she was close to... .but I don't buy it

Not mine that I know of.

[Blimblam]

While gas lighting can certainly occur.  I just want to point out that gas lighting is a facet of a larger pattern, for me understaning that pattern is when I really began to heal.  Focusing on the gaslighting aspect was important to realize that my ex was the source of the crazy making.  To begin to establish a boundary within myself between me and her abusive behaviors. The danger lies in the scape goating of the ex because as we want to give back the negative energy into the compartmentalized idea of our ex the is a real danger of avoiding our own issues and the dynamic as a whole by projecting all of that back into the idea of our ex because this pain is overwhelming.