Are the cruelty and mind games intentional?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This has been a weird time for me of late.

Someone I had been friends with for probably 30 years decided that it would be great to get together with my soon-to-be-ex to share her "concerns" for me with him about my feelings and decisions.

Now they are both upset with me for being "mean" and "a dick" to her because I told her I didn't appreciate that, and felt it was a betrayal of our friendship.

HUH--so they continue to talk about me! I am in the wrong somehow, I am the one with no compassion, because I don't feel it's a mark of true friendship to repeat everything I say to her back to my soon to be ex husband. I mean, I left because he was really nasty to me.

The recent communication I received from him seemed to be a part of the old gaslighting game, where he tries to take what I know to be true and tell me i'm wrong by giving alternate "facts." I felt the brief tug I used to feel to question what I know to be true. He used to be able to make me feel quite crazy. And now I realize he wants to make me not only FEEL crazy but LOOK crazy to others by telling his spin-master version of the "facts."

I used to be so full of "grace" for this, blaming it on his faulty belief system... .of course the gaslighting bit came into full bloom once I tried to become true to my own self and trust my instincts.

Is their alternate version of the truth as told to us something done intentionally to throw us off when they know we have a weakness that way? Or is it just that they do those things to protect themselves and we respond out of our individual weakness and being too trusting? I dunno.

Thoughts?

E.

[Elpis]

This has been a weird time for me of late.

Someone I had been friends with for probably 30 years decided that it would be great to get together with my soon-to-be-ex to share her "concerns" for me with him about my feelings and decisions.

Now they are both upset with me for being "mean" and "a dick" to her because I told her I didn't appreciate that, and felt it was a betrayal of our friendship.

HUH--so they continue to talk about me! I am in the wrong somehow, I am the one with no compassion, because I don't feel it's a mark of true friendship to repeat everything I say to her back to my soon to be ex husband. I mean, I left because he was really nasty to me.

The recent communication I received from him seemed to be a part of the old gaslighting game, where he tries to take what I know to be true and tell me i'm wrong by giving alternate "facts." I felt the brief tug I used to feel to question what I know to be true. He used to be able to make me feel quite crazy. And now I realize he wants to make me not only FEEL crazy but LOOK crazy to others by telling his spin-master version of the "facts."

I used to be so full of "grace" for this, blaming it on his faulty belief system... .of course the gaslighting bit came into full bloom once I tried to become true to my own self and trust my instincts.

Is their alternate version of the truth as told to us something done intentionally to throw us off when they know we have a weakness that way? Or is it just that they do those things to protect themselves and we respond out of our individual weakness and being too trusting? I dunno.

Thoughts?

E.

[ShadowIntheNight]

This has been a weird time for me of late.

Someone I had been friends with for probably 30 years decided that it would be great to get together with my soon-to-be-ex to share her "concerns" for me with him about my feelings and decisions.

Now they are both upset with me for being "mean" and "a dick" to her because I told her I didn't appreciate that, and felt it was a betrayal of our friendship.

HUH--so they continue to talk about me! I am in the wrong somehow, I am the one with no compassion, because I don't feel it's a mark of true friendship to repeat everything I say to her back to my soon to be ex husband. I mean, I left because he was really nasty to me.

The recent communication I received from him seemed to be a part of the old gaslighting game, where he tries to take what I know to be true and tell me i'm wrong by giving alternate "facts." I felt the brief tug I used to feel to question what I know to be true. He used to be able to make me feel quite crazy. And now I realize he wants to make me not only FEEL crazy but LOOK crazy to others by telling his spin-master version of the "facts."

I used to be so full of "grace" for this, blaming it on his faulty belief system... .of course the gaslighting bit came into full bloom once I tried to become true to my own self and trust my instincts.

Is their alternate version of the truth as told to us something done intentionally to throw us off when they know we have a weakness that way? Or is it just that they do those things to protect themselves and we respond out of our individual weakness and being too trusting? I dunno.

Thoughts?

E.

My experience has been that with my uBPDexgf her actions were intentional. I think she does it as a one up position for herself and for her to maintain control. I saw her doing this to other people long before our relationship ended, and either I was stupid or too trusting, but I never got the feeling she was trying to control me during our relationship. Only after I was painted black has she done this. So for me, it was intentional, and I think the cruelty stemmed from feeling she had somehow been done wrong and the other person had to somehow pay for her pain.

[Mutt]

Hi Elpis,

where he tries to take what I know to be true and tell me i'm wrong by giving alternate "facts."

I think everyone has different perspectives with how they interpret something; mentally ill or not and spinning facts was a piece of a bigger picture. She wasn't always trying to spin facts, she would project how she feels or her actions because of how she felt, sometimes I triggered her with how I invalidated how she felt.

I think we didn't understand each other, I certainly didn't understand that she copes differently with stress and anxiety and I had picked up some terrible skills from my (FOO)

For example, if my ex is trying to disprove me I have choices and a choice is avoiding ( JADE'ing ) Justify, Attack, Defend, Explain. It helps both sides with making things less triggering and heated with interpreting things differently, misunderstandings and miscommunications.

How she perceives something is different than how I perceive it and it can relate to emotions, actions, something else that she's experiencing in her life and how I respond to her as well.

I don't think they are mind games or it's intentional and it certainly comes off as manipulation, it's how she copes. It's been two years since the split and my anger has subsided, I understand her and myself better and she's simply wired differently.

I'm more patient, understanding and accepting of her and everyone realizing that we all have different perspectives and I respect that now whereas I would try to convince her of my perspective and I'm right.

[Leaving]

This has been a weird time for me of late.

Someone I had been friends with for probably 30 years decided that it would be great to get together with my soon-to-be-ex to share her "concerns" for me with him about my feelings and decisions.

Now they are both upset with me for being "mean" and "a dick" to her because I told her I didn't appreciate that, and felt it was a betrayal of our friendship.

HUH--so they continue to talk about me! I am in the wrong somehow, I am the one with no compassion, because I don't feel it's a mark of true friendship to repeat everything I say to her back to my soon to be ex husband. I mean, I left because he was really nasty to me.

The recent communication I received from him seemed to be a part of the old gaslighting game, where he tries to take what I know to be true and tell me i'm wrong by giving alternate "facts." I felt the brief tug I used to feel to question what I know to be true. He used to be able to make me feel quite crazy. And now I realize he wants to make me not only FEEL crazy but LOOK crazy to others by telling his spin-master version of the "facts."

I used to be so full of "grace" for this, blaming it on his faulty belief system... .of course the gaslighting bit came into full bloom once I tried to become true to my own self and trust my instincts.

Is their alternate version of the truth as told to us something done intentionally to throw us off when they know we have a weakness that way? Or is it just that they do those things to protect themselves and we respond out of our individual weakness and being too trusting? I dunno.

Thoughts?

E.

E, In answer to your question about their behaviors being intentional or not, I can only tell you that what I experienced on a very regular basis was either that my husband was projecting his own self shame or hatred onto me by making up the most bizarre stories about me.  he didn't tell others these stories- in fact, he made them up as he was verbally attacking me.  I used to think to myself, ' Surely he realizes how insane his delusional lies make him look/seem?" but, I don't know if he has the emotional intelligence to realize how crazy his behavior was or even care that I knew he was acting nuts.  If he wasn't projecting, he was being passive-aggressive and subconsciously doing things to me and my dogs that were horrible and put us in harm's way or financial ruin.  He seemed to lack control in life.  His emotions controlled him all the time.  He always had excuses for everything he did ( didn't have time, too tired, worked that day) and that is what I consider to be the foundation of his character disorder.   The man truly has not a micron of good character or integrity and I never knew who he was and still don't. he was the king of the ' flip-flopper'.  One day he was a Zen guru, the next day a Jew, the next day a Quaker, the next day an athiest.  Our conversations were never grounded in sincerity or truth so I learned to listen less than half heartedly and just take anything he said with a grain of salt.  If he told me that he was working the next day and then didn't go in, he would get angry at me for commenting that I thought he was going to work.  It was complete insanity living with him.  There were times when I was sure that he intentionally did things to harm me but he always said to me, ' I never intended to do... ." and when he said that, I knew he was operating intentionally from his subconscious desire to harm me.  Is it intentional if it's subconscious?  I mean, I don't think my husband sat around like a psychopath, planning to execute his attacks on me.  Rather, his abusive behavior was more like a highly competitive game of tit for tat ' in the moment'.  He was an opportunist and used every moment he could to punish or hurt me in some way.  His tactics were predictable but I seriously doubt he planned them.

Hope that makes sense.  It's hard to make sense of crazy and I finally quit trying after 18 years. If you are free, count your blessings and focus on gaining strength and confidence and building a healthy happy new life.

[Blimblam]

My ex durring devaluation did intentionally cruel things to hurt me.  But when I focused on those acts it became difficult to see the bigger picture.  She was simply demonstrating to herself that she didn't need me and I had no value as an attachment because I had become a trigger for her abamdonment and engulfment fears.  I was no longer a refuge from those fears to her. 

[Infared]

I personally cannot at this point, make excuses for my exes cruel behaviors and actions. I can and have attempted to understand them... .but I cannot ever know what goes on in her head. All that I can do is observe her actions and describe my feelings and response regarding those actions. I can also give a guess and to what is going on with her but I have to be aware that it is just my experienced perspective as to what I think is going on with her... .I certainly cannot be sure.

I definitely observed planned, calculated cruel behavior that my ex and my replacement indulged in because I was in their presence in a public place. They were not behaving in these manners before they saw me. There was a communication between them (either verbal or visual), between the time that they registered my presence, and the time that they "went into" their preplanned performance. There is no doubt that their actions were intentional and that they were performed to cause me emotional pain. It was also obvious that they had discussed this beforehand, i.e. there was premeditation. Calculatedly so.  What they were actually thinking at the time or their motives or reasons I can only guess at.

Now, if I encountered her alone in public, her actions were markedly different.  They could range from calculated cruelty, to an attempt at some kind of contact... .there was no telling.

It was all quite difficult for me to digest, especially after living with a person who I thought cared-for and respected me. It was all quite disarming.

[going places]

My bff of 30+ years is my real estate agent handling the sale of my home.

She knows EVERYTHING about what the ex did to me, as I confided EVERYTHING to her.

So, she flips on me about a month ago... .raging via text that I was difficult and this and that

(I had a question, wanted to talk to her, she doesn't get out of bed before 11 am, I work 2nd shift so I need to talk to her before 3 pm... .which she was never available... .sends me emails/texts at 1,2,3,4 AM... .so I tried to set up a time when we could talk... .she had a meltdown)

THEN she starts cc'ing my ex on everything.

Emailing with him, chatting him up, etc... .

She is the most gullible person you will ever meet so he will manipulate her 8 ways into Sunday... .

So I moved out of the house, and it was empty for 5 days.

Apparently a pipe burst, and it ruined the ceiling and carpet.

It's supposed to close tomorrow.

Some how this is all my fault.

She and the ex now are ganging up on me.

I do not control the weather.

Even if I had been there, the pipe STILL would have froze.

It may not have ruined the ceiling and carpet, but me and the kids would have been stuck in the house, with no water and busted pipes... .and I would have had to deal with the repairs, as the ex says: I don't have any money (which is a lie).

I had to get out of that house; me and my girls... .it was suffocating us.

So my bff of 30 years and exh of 25 years are now a team.

He is a monster, and she is gullible.

Go team.

And I simply don't care.

Lord, please let this house close tomorrow, and let this night mare be over.

[Elpis]

Wow! it looks like a wide range of experiences for all of you!

I recognize the "tit for tat" that Leaving mentions as something both my long time friend and long time husband do, that reaction in the moment. For the friend, she has to be the most hurt person in the room, so even me just stating that I didn't appreciate her going behind my back (just a fact of "here is how I feel about that and why I am upset" led to "well you hurt me and you don't care!" and my h text-calling me names.

As I was recounting my most recent communication from my husband to my T I realized that they preferred the old me, the one without boundaries around how they're allowed to treat me, as I read what my h said: "what happened to the compassion you used to have for others? Is this the new you?" Ah! What I thought was kindness and compassion was enabling, and not good for either of us. (And yes.)

I'm making such a huge thinking change of my own that I still doubt myself too often, going from "Please! Walk on me!" to the newer ":)on't walk on the tulips, dude" and the process is good and bad and up and down. i'll get there. You can teach an old dog new tricks, it just maybe takes a little longer... .

One of the biggest things I have to give up is caring what others think about me, including my kids. My h has done a great job thus far of telling his perception of the story (that I was unhappy with his circumstances) when I've tried to make it clear that I was unhappy about how he TREATED me in his circumstances. So when your own child refuses to speak to you because of how he plays up his absolute victimhood and now refuses to let your grandchildren speak to you, well, lets just say it gets intensely painful.

I guess my friend and h are 2 wounded victim types who have temporarily at least banded together.

And like everyone has said,

we change and become a trigger to them,

they have to "win",

they project what they hate within themselves,

he's been done wrong and I must pay... .etc. etc.

I don't bother trying to explain myself to him at all, but that doesn't stop him from sending me text upon text upon text telling me off. I didn't get married to be told off regularly because I don't think like him, that's a lot of why i'm working toward getting UNmarried.

Basically I think what I hear is: they do what they do because they are who they are, and I have to figure out how to implement the boundaries.

Every once in a while something new hits (like this New! With Added Friends!) and I need to vent and moan... .I realize I can't know their motives, only see their actions. Which are giving me grief.

Thanks for listening and responding.

[Mutt]

Basically I think what I hear is: they do what they do because they are who they are, and I have to figure out how to implement the boundaries.

I think this is a good place to start, although I think it's more complicated than this. Personally I think it's looking at our behaviors and understanding other's as well.

I had my emotional baggage, was invalidating and controlling my spouse, these are issues I had to own for change. I didn't mean it, and it took her to reflect the mirror back on myself. The silver lining.

Behaviors and patterns I would most likely repeat in the next relationship. I don't think it matters if the partner is disordered or or non-disordered, I have my issues I carry with me wherever I go.

It takes two people in a r/s.

[Skip]

Why are you battling this?

Your husband wants to reconcile. You friend is trying to help you hold this marriage together. You children think you are going too far... .you are frustrated with all of them.

Are you stuck in the "I'm not staying and I'm not leaving mode"?

It's messy.  When we really aren't leaving and we aren't trying to resolve the problems, its like standing in a burning house.

Are you really done?  Have you made this clear - filed the papers - asked everyone to stand down and work on dissolution?  If not, you probably shouldn't be on Leaving.  It may just be polarizing things on the home front.

[raisins3142]

I don't think my uBPDexgf's mind games, etc. were intentional.  At least she did not consciously sit down and make a plan.  In the end, though, it doesn't matter for me.  It still hurts and is an unlivable situation to be in.

[apollotech]

Hello,

I will say that in my particular relationship that the cruelty and mind games were probably 50-60% purposefully generated. They were used to achieve an end result. Her manipulative cruelty was usually prefaced with an angry lead in, such as, ":)o you want the truth?" or "I haven't done anything, but... ." When her coping mechanisms were at play there was always a lot of rambling, and she couldn't stay focused. It was a flight reflex... .I will injure you so that you cannot pursue, and then I will run away.

It was definitely all for the purpose of control. Having control of people, issues, events, etc. was a huge agenda for my BPDexgf. Ultimately, all she did was confirm that she had no control over anything nor anyone, least of all herself. BPD, the anti-control agent!

[Leaving]

Hello,

I will say that in my particular relationship that the cruelty and mind games were probably 50-60% purposefully generated. They were used to achieve an end result.

Your comment about ' used to achieve an end result' says it all and I just had a light bulb moment.  Sometimes I tend to overlook the simple and clear logic  before me.  I guess after years and years of always trying to understand whether my husband's behavior was intentional, I am always second guessing my own good sense.  I would have to agree with your comment relative to my own marriage.  I would add that I believe that 90-100 percent of my husband's cruel and abusive behavior was just as intentional as his good and kind behavior- both were used to achieve a positive outcome for HIMSELF.

[jhkbuzz]

Basically I think what I hear is: they do what they do because they are who they are, and I have to figure out how to implement the boundaries.

I think this is a good place to start, although I think it's more complicated than this. Personally I think it's looking at our behaviors and understanding other's as well.

I had my emotional baggage, was invalidating and controlling my spouse, these are issues I had to own for change. I didn't mean it, and it took her to reflect the mirror back on myself. The silver lining.

Behaviors and patterns I would most likely repeat in the next relationship. I don't think it matters if the partner is disordered or or non-disordered, I have my issues I carry with me wherever I go.

It takes two people in a r/s.

I see that in myself as well.  How did you work on the "controlling" part?

[Elpis]

Again, thanks for responses.

Skip, i'm definitely on my way out. I've hired a lawyer and i'm gathering paperwork. But you're right, I need to just keep on moving. You're right, this in-between is probably polarizing things. My bad. I need to hurry up and finish gathering paperwork and get it turned in. I know I've been afraid of the reactions to come when I do, and that's one of my biggest faults--avoiding. Which comes from fear.

Mutt, I am also working on my own issues. Yes, I know I am not perfect. Yes, I have heard on many occasions that it takes 2 and do know this to be very true. Without my most excellent enabling I wouldn't be where I am today. One of my hugest issues is that I allow others to have too much influence over me--thus the long marriage in a harsh circumstance. Therapy is an awesome thing, I am an imperfect thing. My big faults originate with my need to be liked and to be helpful, but I've helped both my husband and my friend in all the wrong ways, and now that I've quit all hell is breaking loose. My avoidance comes from not wanting to face and feel the pain.

Sorry, guys, to vent. I was just hit rather hard by all the emotions of the nonsense of what was going on around me, and feeling sorry for myself. It happens. I'll try to keep it off the board. I had thought this was a safe place to vent, but once I read the answers I realized I was asking the wrong question--it was about them, not me. Their actions, not mine.

I don't think my uBPDexgf's mind games, etc. were intentional.  At least she did not consciously sit down and make a plan.  In the end, though, it doesn't matter for me.  It still hurts and is an unlivable situation to be in.

This makes total sense--thank you. It's not as if the motive behind the actions matter, it won't make my life less painful! I think I thought it might.

Once you've spent 6 decades avoiding pain, it's a bit of a shock to jump into the deep end of the pain pool!

[Mutt]

I'm not perfect either. I think it's important when we realize when we polarize things. I've started communicating and co-parenting with her because in a way I think it was something I was trying to avoid because of the difficulty. It creates tension with my kids. I use the tools I learned here, I validate the valid and not the invalid. It's accepting that I can be invalidating with her and to not take things personal and make the best effort that I can. I think how we communicate is important. I've told family and friends that I don't want to talk about my ex anymore because I'm enabling a drama triangle. It's between my ex and I and it may not be a popular choice with them, it's an experience that I live and not them so if they ask "We're doing good, kids are great". She's a part of my life, I accept her for whom she is.

I think I was making things more difficult than what they were and I forgive myself for not trying earlier, maybe I wasn't ready. What's important I think is identifying that and when it's time to make a choice. I spent an awful lot of time avoiding it and to a degree I had residual anger, that anger lifted when I decided to bridge the gap for my family. It was like a weight was lifted off my shoulder because I made a choice - a choice that feels right for me and my family.

My avoidance comes from not wanting to face and feel the pain.

How long has it been since you talked to your H and him wanting reconciliation?

[Trog]

If someone repeats back to you your own thoughts and feelings, requests and shares sensitive info, makes you fell special with attention and quick giving sex - all BPD traits... .That's grooming. Just cos we're not kids and perhaps don't expect to be taken advantage of by our peers, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. BPD/NPD, they want a certain outcome and want to control events, if that is not intentional I don't understand what is. It's not punishable by law and many of us (me included) are just naive and guilty of being naive.

I have said before, for years i walked around shaking my head thinking and saying 'why would she do that, that's cruel/mean/evil... .No one do that on purpose... .Would they?

Yes! They would. Welcome to BPD/NPD the ends justify the means. We are in this pickle precisely because they play on our naivity. They didn't GIVE us naivity. In my case, I got this from an isolated childhood with some set core beliefs that need redressing.

Some people are awful. They don't play by our rules. We understand this of psychopaths/sociopaths- how many hop skip jumps is it to BPD/NPD? They are born from the same core trauma.

Yes, keeping you confused, moving the goalposts, up being down, gaslighting, cruelty, all - on - purpose.

[Elpis]

Mutt,

Since my h is still up for calling me names and telling me what a bad person I am when I don't do things his way, while i'm still trying to work through the complex ptsd issues around those very things, I've kept the communication with him to a minimum. I don't answer back when he's name-calling and telling me off and seemingly trying to make me feel guilty, cuz that's why I left. (well, that's a rather simplistic way to put it. he stirred in my childhood traumas and I had no boundaries or the sense it takes to know I shouldn't allow that. So i'm still--it's only been a year--trying to work to heal the childhood trauma along with the stuff he added to it.)

When he has been treating me with respect I will answer him, whether it's text or phone. So I think that's the whole "validate the valid and don't validate the invalid." There's still enough incoming negativity for me to need to be cautious.

My grown children have problems about things especially after they've spent time with him. He likes pulling them into the mix and trying to get them on his side. I don't want sides. I don't talk about my marriage with them.

That's when my "friend" turned on me--when she decided it was a good idea to go talk to him but tell me she didn't. I think he's good at being convincing, and she is more like him in personality than me. I can't help that, so I told her how it hurt me and that's it for me. No more.

I do have a good group of friends who are the type to pray for both parties while still being able to support me through what I'm going through. I needed to be away from the abuse to get some real clarity about my life and marriage and have the space to be able to stop being afraid and start healing. That took some time. I'm still trying to unwrap the whole fear thing since we're talking decades of my accepting this behavior as the norm and as okay because they (my mother then my husband) said they loved me.

We need people, we need support. Psychologists will tell you that right up front. I spent so many years isolated by my fears in my marriage, and that way lies mental UNhealth. I can't just keep everything between myself and my therapist, I need outside perspective. My therapist is actually the one who suggested I develop a support system. I still too easily accept the abusiveness of others.

I don't have family to talk to anyway other than my kids, I had a sister but she's dead. so I've had to build a support system myself. I'm realizing how deep the crack is that i'm trying to heal of my own faulty beliefs--yes, I  have them too, not just him. I've known this for years now. That crack does make it a bit difficult for me to see straight at times. 

I would love to simply be Zen and never have negative feelings about people hurting me. That would be awesome. However, that isn't the truth of where I am as I heal. I'm feeling fairly invalidated right now, that it's wrong for me to feel wounded. I'm sure that's not your intention since I know this site is meant to be a place of healing. And that I have to be willing to challenge my feelings and put them up against the truth. It's hard work, all this healing and dealing. Sometimes I will get sucked in by my old stuff before I get back on the path. I'm human.

Trog,

I think a lot of my being "naïve" was simply an unwillingness to look at the truth of things, to recognize what I knew in my gut was abusive, and then choose to keep myself safe from. I know it was my own faulty beliefs that got me in that spot, my entire lifetime of believing that my feelings didn't matter, so I didn't believe how I felt and take care of myself. Thus the complex PTSD i'm dealing with.

I asked the wrong question--I can't know the motives of another person, only God can. My job is to take care of me and grow me and heal me, and obsessing about why someone who says they love me would hurt me so much only sidetracks my own growth.

Skip and/or Mutt,

Perhaps an article on "polarizing" would be useful, it's a great concept that could use some explaining. i'll admit I don't totally understand. Clearly you guys have some thoughts on it.

[apollotech]

Hello,

I will say that in my particular relationship that the cruelty and mind games were probably 50-60% purposefully generated. They were used to achieve an end result.

Your comment about ' used to achieve an end result' says it all and I just had a light bulb moment.  Sometimes I tend to overlook the simple and clear logic  before me.  I guess after years and years of always trying to understand whether my husband's behavior was intentional, I am always second guessing my own good sense.  I would have to agree with your comment relative to my own marriage.  I would add that I believe that 90-100 percent of my husband's cruel and abusive behavior was just as intentional as his good and kind behavior- both were used to achieve a positive outcome for HIMSELF.

Leaving,

I am thankful that you gleaned something from my post. I am very sorry that you are caught up in the BPD chaos. I cannot even imagine being married to a pwBPD. The old truism, "Trust your gut feeling.", is definitely applicable when dealing with a pwBPD. Now, if I had just taken my own medicine in my own relationship, but NO, my gut was telling me to bail out before we even physically met. I completely ignored it and went down in flames. Peace to you!