MC was interesting..ultimately good...

[formflier]

So... .first of all... .I was deliberate in taking time to be in best shape I could today.  Walk last night... .made sure and avoiding things that could be stressful... .good nights sleep... .good breakfast... .

I showed up to MC well rested... .well fed... .non triggered... .but resolute.

Luckily... .the MC's other appointment canceled... .we went for over 2 hours... .

First 30 minutes or so... .I let my wife take lead in the how it's going department... what she wanted to talk about... .

And... .it was a low grade rant about she worked and I NEVER cleaned... .wouldn't do what she said... .she had to do it all.  I tried to validate and did not contradict... .interrupt... any of that.  Used the term "looking at it from her point of view"... .

She tossed out lots of devaluing jabs... .with the never... .always... told me my feelings.  I was calm... .but only "opposed" my wife by requesting to be the one that got to share my feelings... .that I would love to hear my wife's feelings... .and that I had no interest in listening to "opinions" from anyone else about what I might be feeling... .or my motivations for doing this. 

That died out pretty quick (I suspect it was tactic to trigger me... maybe)

Well... .my wife is all over the place... .we were problem solving... .and solved the cleaning issue several times.  But before my wife would agree it would be solved... .she would add one other "little" thing... .

I demonstrated max flexibility... .but made it clear I would negotiate a solution... .but would not do what I was "told"... we were equals... .

Well... at the 30 minute point... .about... .the MC says directly to my wife... ."ff wife... .I don't believe we are talking about what you really care about... .are we?"  Wife doesn't respond verbally but is all over the place with physical signs that the mark has been found.

I made it clear that i had one issue I needed to air out before session was over... .and then we went back to wife... .but she wouldn't come out with it.

Well... it comes to me and I lay it out there. 

Phone rang at my house... .I picked it up and heard my wife and her aunt going to town about me.  The aunt was advising my wife to do things that are in direct contradiction to what our mental health team (MC, Ts, and my mental health guys at the VA for my issues) say we should be doing to get healthier. 

My request was that my wife ensure family and others stay out of our... .and my mental health treatment decisions and leave that to the professionals.

I... luckily... got all of that out without being interrupted... .and I stayed calm and even.

Well... .she exclaimed that she had been violated... .her privacy and all of this... .

I asked if perhaps my privacy had been violated... .

She made the connection... .she didn't like it... .but the connection hit... .

MC did good job of calming wife... .trying to redirect... .wife kept saying she was done talking and wanted to leave... .but then would keep talking.

So... MC spent time reminding wife of progress made... .coaching on some decision making

Wife then says she is going to take kids and go to another state (sort of threatening)

I offered compromise... .wife went in to the I don't matter thing... .she will do what she wants...

I stayed calm... MC worked it for a while... .

The basic question being worked was how is it that FF wife gets to decide what to do all by herself with "our" kids... .she kept saying "hers".

We ended up talking about taking separate weeks... .but nothing is finalized.

So... .nothing really was decided... .or solved... .but I was able to clearly communicate my request to my wife about keeping family out.

Wife acknowledges privacy is needed... .and was violated... .on both sides.

Wife was calmed and "ok"  by time two hours was up.

I feel best about my ability to deal with all of that... .and remain neutral... .

That I responded only to things that I care about deeply... .and did not respond to trigger attempts.

Wife clearly gets that the "old dance" is over... .

I can see her chewing on this... .(she didn't say this outloud... .just my interpretation)

So... we'll see where it goes from here.

Ride home was ok.  We shopped some together... .car broke down and had to be towed... life went on.

FF

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Nice to hear... .keep us posted if it stays that positive for the "long haul"... .

[vortex of confusion]

 

[MaroonLiquid]

Nice!   

[Skip]

I made it clear that i had one issue I needed to air out before session was over... .and then we went back to wife... .but she wouldn't come out with it.

Well... it comes to me and I lay it out there. 

Phone rang at my house... .I picked it up and heard my wife and her aunt going to town about me.  The aunt was advising my wife to do things that are in direct contradiction to what our mental health team (MC, Ts, and my mental health guys at the VA for my issues) say we should be doing to get healthier. 

My request was that my wife ensure family and others stay out of our... .and my mental health treatment decisions and leave that to the professionals.

Good assertiveness.

I know you were concerned about her alienating the kids and the email incident (and the relationship boundaries with the former work friend)... .how did that part of the discussion go?

[formflier]

 

Will do... I expect lots of ups and downs over next few days as she processes today's events.

On way home she seemed to relax some... .car broke down... .we handled it.

I stopped by church and helped her take down VBS stuff

Now... .she just stomped off to other room and is talking to someone on phone... .just barely loud enough so I can hear it is a rant about how I haven't cleaned "anything"... .my wife ... ."did it all"  etc etc.

Oh... and now she is explaining to whoever she is  talking to what I am "upset" about... .reorganizing the van or something... . I have zero idea what she is talking about.

Anyone have any idea how to get around the "always"... .I just heard  "He didn't do one damn thing... "

Oh... ."I'm trying to manipulate the counselor into believing his wife is crazy... ."

Oh... she says she is not going to go back to this lady again... .because it "gets us nowhere"...

Oh... ."I've never washed one blessed piece of her clothing... ."



FF

[formflier]

Good assertiveness.

I know you were concerned about her alienating the kids and the email incident (and the relationship boundaries with the former work friend)... .how did that part of the discussion go?

Didn't get into the kids part... .she was bouncing all over the place... .

She claimed she only sent the email to her aunt.  I a copy from my d18s email account. 

Right now... .I have no plans to get into who did what where... .I'm going to let it lay... .and try to have good fathers day weekend.

She is having big rant on phone right now...

FF

[KateCat]

Do you think this is your wife's go-to form of self-soothing? Can she actually stop sharing her delusional fears about you with kids, family, church associates, your employers, your employees?

[KateCat]

I guess I'm wondering whether it's almost an unnecessary torment for both you and your wife to continue to engage in this type of marriage counseling session.

That maybe going straight to the kids, one by one, and helping each one process things they've heard about you over the years (and some of them have been truly strange, I think, like the fact that you "have another family in the barn" or something). Not to accuse their mom of anything, but to reassure them that you aren't going anywhere and that they are your only focus.

I guess I don't see how you can prevent your wife from continuing to do this energetic accusation thing, as it seems to be deeply engrained and chronic. If she can offload this stress to others outside the immediate family, people like her aunt, maybe that's "as good as it gets."

And maybe lots and lots of outsiders have heard lots and lots of things about formflier over the years. And maybe most of them have taken it with a big grain of salt.

Does your wife have any women friends, I wonder? Women friends sometimes have a great capacity to listen to a whole lot of stuff. 

[Skip]

I guess I'm wondering whether it's almost an unnecessary torment for both you and your wife to continue to engage in this type of marriage counseling session.

FF,

The marriage situation sounds dire. It really sounds like two of you are fully immersed in the drama and battling tit for tat.

I wasn't in the session, but I'm struggling to pull from what you have written that was "ultimately good".  How are you measuring good?

What percentage of you time with her is good, quiet/ok, tolerable/tense, bad.  Where are you two connected or at a point of peace with each other? Over the dog?  Kids?   House?

Have you read Stop Caretaking the Borderline by Margalis Fjelstad (professional member here)?  The title is somewhat misleading in that she talks a lot about how we can be drawn into substituting caretaking for supporting and loving - and how we become condescending and over reaching - and how we struggle to find happiness. It will make any of us rethink about what supporting and helping means.  And to know a lose - lose situation when we enter it.

Just tossing ideas out on how to change the prevailing winds.

Skip

[formflier]

 

Haven't read that one yet... .

The "good" part was that there were several things on my part that I was able to clearly communicate... .and from her reaction... .she understands.

Don't have a lot of time to post... .

More later.

FF

[formflier]

Do you think this is your wife's go-to form of self-soothing? Can she actually stop sharing her delusional fears about you with kids, family, church associates, your employers, your employees?

That is an interesting way of looking at it... .let me think about this... .

FF

[KateCat]

Is it also possible that she suspects that everywhere you go and in everything you do, everyone wants a piece of you? That she needs to cut off as many "avenues" for you as she can?

That might not be so irrational. For where would she be without you?

[formflier]

"have another family in the barn" or something).  

Oh wow... .that takes me back.

Yeah... .a Navy buddy of mine was out at farm... he said something about being in a marriage ceremony in a "pole barn" (think of big building you and put a couple combines in)... .just like ours... .

So... day or two later... .she "knew" that I had snuck a woman out there and married her... .right under her nose... .

That one actually got inside the counseling room with a preacher... .she quickly backpedaled and said she was just asking... .and when pressed more on it... something along the lines of "well... why else would he have said that... ."

I did have another "family" for a while... .up until the point (all pre BPD knowledge) that I had a test scheduled to establish paternity.  

I was going to take a couple of my kids in... .I was going to get tested... .and then I was going to have my wife go get this other child (she knew where it was) and get the child tested... .

Without blinking... .she deflected... ."ok... .so the child might not be yours... but you still slept with her"... .stuff like that used to drive me bananas...

Sigh... .

Now... I'm more sad when I hear the nonsense she puts out.

Family T identified paranoia as her core trait/symptom... .not saying that correctly... .but I think from my stories you can see that.

FF

[formflier]

Is it also possible that she suspects that everywhere you go and in everything you do, everyone wants a piece of you? That she needs to cut off as many "avenues" for you as she can?

That might not be so irrational. For where would she be without you?

Yeah... I could see that... .

FF

[KateCat]

Family T identified paranoia as her core trait/symptom... .not saying that correctly... .but I think from my stories you can see that.

I see that. I live that, and so it jumped out at me in your story from the beginning.

It seems that researchers and therapists are kind of "bullish" on new treatment techniques for people with BPD. If you scour the 'net for similar optimism about paranoia, you don't find it. You don't hear individuals with stories of improvement on the part of their partners either. Really, I haven't encountered one. (I consider Steph's story here on bpdfamily to be a credible story of real BPD success, just as a comparison.)

I worry that you may break your spirit in a lengthy battle against an illness that doesn't lose. (Well, at least not yet, not to human remedy.) If you can focus on breaking its grip on you, rather than its grip on your wife . . . if that makes sense. I feel that one actually benefits from giving paranoia some "rein" rather than attempting to "leash" it. And maybe treat it a bit matter-of-factly with your kids, or with a bit of humor, without showing that you are too upended by it. That would reassure them, I think.

This is hard, hard, hard. 

[formflier]

Yeah... I see the thought.

Interesting way to look at it.  I was thinking about breaking free of her attempts to control me... .I wonder if I think about breaking free from the paranoia... .

Today was interesting for me... .a bit of a victory... .in that hard stuff went down... .and I was ok.  Not triggered... .had a wonderful conversation with the tow truck driver as my car got taken in.

As odd as it sounds... .today was a great day... .

Wife and I just got back from an evening walk... .light rain was cooling.  I'm about to go stretch... .we had really nice conversation.  Nothing deep or emotional though... .

FF

[KateCat]

That's the stuff! Keep it up and one day you might even be a . . . . "waverider." 

[formflier]

That's the stuff! Keep it up and one day you might even be a . . . . "waverider." 

Yep... that would be good!

My biggest weakness... right now... .seems to be the out of nowhere curveball... .brand new tactic... .or a long put away tactic that comes back.

Usually get "busted" with it... .once... then adjust and go forward.

So... .got snaked into making a facebook post on her account... .once... she was weird about it... .edited it for me... .then blathered on forever about it.

OK... she got me to post of facebook... .my first and last... .

She got my name on the chore chart with a fast paced conversation... .and created drama around that.  I had thought that through before... .and this was pretty much the reason why my name was not up there ever before...

OK... .so... .my name was there for 1 day... .she got me... .and some drama.  Real lesson learned... .don't do faced paced conversations where decisions are being demanded... .just don't... .

That kind of thing...

FF

[married21years]

     

[sweetheart]

I am a big fan of Fjelstad's book.   It was for me the single biggest sea change in my r/s.  I think I ended up highlighting about half the book and then had a Kindle malfunction and lost my notes and highlights.  It was very nearly the end of the world.   

One of the things I have experienced in my r/s from time to time is being locked in a battle of wills with my partner.   I call it the 'needs entitlement war'.    It's not a fair fight between adults where consensus will eventually be reached it's a deadlocked position where both parties take opposing positions, dig in and reiterate their position until somebody becomes exhausted and stops communicating.

I've learned not to do two things.   I try not to spend time describing my partner's behavior, feelings, actions.  That's her business to take care of.   I try to emotionally insulate myself from it.    The second thing I try not to do is insist on agreement or consensus.   She doesn't have to see it my way.   She doesn't have to agree with my opinion.  She doesn't have to like what I do or don't do. 

I have learned to do two things.   First is to focus on my feelings, needs, actions and behaviors.   Lots of I statements.  I think.  I felt.   I wanted.   The second I learned  is to recognize that the reason we become deadlocked is usually because there is an underlying feeling that is being suppressed.

For me, what I have come to learn, is that I have a limited amount of bandwidth to deal with issues like these and I get overwhelmed sooner and more frequently than I would have thought.   I needed to and I still need to spend more time recharging my own emotional batteries.     I can't spend hours each day pouring out.   I have to take in. 

When I take in I am the master of my own ship.  More calm and centered, less reactive.   I like what Skip said in a different thread about how we all come here to become more calm and centered.   That's a great mantra for my day.  What can I do for 'ducks today that makes for a more calm and centered and happy duck!

take a look at the book some time.   it's very good.

'ducks

That's a really great post babyducks, and the book is the one I return to when I am struggling just to remind myself to disengage... .

[formflier]

    The second thing I try not to do is insist on agreement or consensus.   She doesn't have to see it my way.   She doesn't have to agree with my opinion.  She doesn't have to like what I do or don't do. 

Do you have kids... joint assets... ?

There are many areas where I can see this is best approach... .but... .if there is 1 dollar to spend... .and one goes this way and the other goes that way... .with no consensus... .wow.

Same with kids... .they get caught in tug of war... .not all things are worth tugging over.

FF

[formflier]

What percentage of you time with her is good, quiet/ok, tolerable/tense, bad.  Where are you two connected or at a point of peace with each other? Over the dog?  Kids?   House?

OK... .so period of time matters... so I'll take last couple months.

Good:  50-60%.

quiet ok:  15-20%

tolerable/tense:  15-20

bad 5-10

I choose not to be present for most of bad... so the 5-10 represent times I am aware of what she is saying/doing because I haven't left yet for various reasons.

A general observation:  My life is much better as is our r/s than last summer... .so less weird stuff... .the stuff that happens... seems to be weirder.

Could be perception issue on my part... .mixing up the shock of something weird... with it being weirder... .because I'm shocked/triggered that something bad is happening... .after weeks of calm... .

Vice if I get once a week weirdness for a while... it seems normal.

FF

[formflier]

I wasn't in the session, but I'm struggling to pull from what you have written that was "ultimately good".  How are you measuring good?

I will expand on this later... .but I communicated with her... and I am convinced it "sunk in"... .vice "bounced off"

So... .for me... .MC has been a place where hard issues can be communicated about... .much less of a place where problems can be solved.

There have been a few times when my wife's mind was changed... .but that is not the norm.  A few times the MC has been able to slowly get her to the place where my actions (actual... .not imagined) were seen as about me... not about her. 

In other words... I wasn't thinking about her (therefor not sending her a message... ) when I cashed a check over here... .or decided to do something else.

More later on things I believe I communicated.

FF

[formflier]

 

So... .big points that I cared about... .that she heard.

During the early diversion about chores and chore charts... .

She and I are not equals to the kids... .we are equals to each other... .neither over top of each other.  Ask... don't demand.

She didn't like this concept... .and tried diversions and some other things to get me off topic... .but I didn't move... and she heard it.


That family does not need to be involved in our mental health decisions... .and in the effort to heal out marriage... .my "request" was that we only take advice from professionals.

That I felt violated by her taking and sending my emails to other family members.

She tried to figure out a way to say that what I had done... .was worse than her... .  It sunk in... .we both felt violated.

Last:  When she was making demands and letting me know what she was going to do with "her" kids this summer. 

I kept saying that was a great starting point to compromise on what actually was going to happen.  She tried to use all the excuses why she should just decide... the failed... .and we now have some workable compromises on the table.  Nothing decided yet... .some schedule things are still in air.    But... the concept stuck.

FF