Is it Wrong That I Still Haven't Really Forgiven Her?

[mrwigand]

It's been 9 or so months since I and my dexBPDgf broke up, though only a few months since I've actually been able to stop communicating with her fully (we had to maintain communication so she could pay me back some money... .UPDATE: I've been fully paid back and haven't had communication with her since).

I was speaking to my T the other day about how even so many months after the fact, I have a difficult time forgiving my ex for certain things. Not in a way where I'm actively bitter. My ex and I had a very emotional conversation a few months ago (which was started because she was being very evasive about paying me back), but it culminated with her apologizing for some things, which I sincerely appreciated (I apologized for things I didn't handle well also). She's apologized and I truly thank her for that, but I still haven't forgiven and forgotten. I have no desire to confront her about anything, on the contrary after that conversation our communication was very positive and we're on good terms. But still... .I feel how I feel.

I had a very painful relationship with my ex, one in which I felt I was triangulated with her unstable, abusive ex-boyfriend. Being caught in a triangle and feeling like you were in competition for the affections of your partner was one of the most confusing and painful things I've experienced. It felt like my value was being diminished. When I think about it and the decisions she made that contributed to it, I'm just not sure I'm ready to quite forgive it, even if it wasn't done consciously. And I don't even mean this to sound angry or accusatory. I think she's done her part in trying to make amends, and I truly appreciate that. But I still have very painful feelings regarding all of that, and though I've "forgiven" her, I still can't forget. And I'm not sure I ever will. I know people make mistakes, and I wish her the best, but perhaps it's something I'll never really be comfortable with?

Is that normal? Should there be a time when I've forgiven her to the point where I'm cool with everything?

[enlighten me]

I don't know if it helps and I don't know if its healthy but I haven't forgiven my ex wife for what she did and that was in 2011. Im not angry any more about it but forgiving her doesn't seem right to me. I can accept that she did what she did because that is her nature. I can accept that its in the past and theres no point worrying about it.

I cannot forgive her though as disorder or not she still did things consciously that where hurtful.

Maybe I just have a different idea of what forgiveness is.

[once removed]

i struggled with this myself. im a big believer in forgiveness but im an equally big believer that its a process and cant be forced. if you want to reach it, you will when youre ready. no, i dont think there is a designated time.

in my case it was never conscious. i just looked back and realized id forgiven her a long time ago.

[OnceConfused]

You should FORGIVE but NOT FORGET.

Forgive is an act not for the other person but really for yourself. To forgive is to let go of the suffering from the pain inflicted by others. To forgive is to lessen your load so that you can move on to your next journey. To forgive is to dissipate the poison put into your heart & mind by others.

How did I forgive the pain from the xBPDgf?

I simply use the wonder thought put forth by Dr. Wayne Dyer: (paraphrased here)

TRYING TO VIEW ANYONE COMING INTO YOUR LIFE AS A TEACHER.  Even a little tyrant can have something to teach you.

I did do just that. I viewed my XBPDGF as a teacher from God, who came to teach me lessons about "how I should be staying on my path and let no one pull me off.", about "how to live with a simpler life.", and best of all, "go where you can see new highs and not new lows". 

Victor Frankl said it well as he was in the concentration camp:

"we are all in the gutter, but some of us choose to look up at the stars"

BUT do I forget BPD? NOPE not in a million years. I will remember , not to be angry or bitter but really to  avoid these pot holes in my journey again.

[Lonely_Astro]

You should FORGIVE but NOT FORGET.

Forgive is an act not for the other person but really for yourself. To forgive is to let go of the suffering from the pain inflicted by others. To forgive is to lessen your load so that you can move on to your next journey. To forgive is to dissipate the poison put into your heart & mind by others.

How did I forgive the pain from the xBPDgf?

I simply use the wonder thought put forth by Dr. Wayne Dyer: (paraphrased here)

TRYING TO VIEW ANYONE COMING INTO YOUR LIFE AS A TEACHER.  Even a little tyrant can have something to teach you.

I did do just that. I viewed my XBPDGF as a teacher from God, who came to teach me lessons about "how I should be staying on my path and let no one pull me off.", about "how to live with a simpler life.", and best of all, "go where you can see new highs and not new lows". 

Victor Frankl said it well as he was in the concentration camp:

"we are all in the gutter, but some of us choose to look up at the stars"

BUT do I forget BPD? NOPE not in a million years. I will remember , not to be angry or bitter but really to  avoid these pot holes in my journey again.

This is good stuff right here!  I posted here a couple months ago about my reengaged (seemingly) failed relationship with a girl named Jane.  We started back up almost a year ago (after NC for 3 years)  and its been up and down, cumulating in her dating a guy for about a month before I found out (kinda long story there).  Anyway, I went NC for about a week and made the mistake of talking to her.  HUGE mistake on my part, because we ended up back together.

Fast forward a couple of months.  She's in DBT and seems to be taking it serious.  That wasn't on me, she chose to go, which is good.  It still has its highs and lows.  Currently, we are going through a low because her behavior has been like it was when she was seeing the guy in July.  I confronted her about it and its been a huge fight ever since (which is also how I ended back up here again).  She said that I shouldn't hold the past against her (which I don't see a couple of months ago as "distant history" and that its unfair that I do so.  I disagree.  I told her I forgave her but I would never forget.  Yeah, that didn't go over so well, either.

But, thank you for the great words

[klacey3]

It's been 9 or so months since I and my dexBPDgf broke up, though only a few months since I've actually been able to stop communicating with her fully (we had to maintain communication so she could pay me back some money... .UPDATE: I've been fully paid back and haven't had communication with her since).

I was speaking to my T the other day about how even so many months after the fact, I have a difficult time forgiving my ex for certain things. Not in a way where I'm actively bitter. My ex and I had a very emotional conversation a few months ago (which was started because she was being very evasive about paying me back), but it culminated with her apologizing for some things, which I sincerely appreciated (I apologized for things I didn't handle well also). She's apologized and I truly thank her for that, but I still haven't forgiven and forgotten. I have no desire to confront her about anything, on the contrary after that conversation our communication was very positive and we're on good terms. But still... .I feel how I feel.

I had a very painful relationship with my ex, one in which I felt I was triangulated with her unstable, abusive ex-boyfriend. Being caught in a triangle and feeling like you were in competition for the affections of your partner was one of the most confusing and painful things I've experienced. It felt like my value was being diminished. When I think about it and the decisions she made that contributed to it, I'm just not sure I'm ready to quite forgive it, even if it wasn't done consciously. And I don't even mean this to sound angry or accusatory. I think she's done her part in trying to make amends, and I truly appreciate that. But I still have very painful feelings regarding all of that, and though I've "forgiven" her, I still can't forget. And I'm not sure I ever will. I know people make mistakes, and I wish her the best, but perhaps it's something I'll never really be comfortable with?

Is that normal? Should there be a time when I've forgiven her to the point where I'm cool with everything?

Its completely understandable I think that you are not ready to forgive her. A situation like you describe is so painful and its something alot of people have never through. Everyone's ex on this board is different. Like everyone, there are good people and bad people. I believe that pwBPD can also be a nice or not nice person. It will take us all a different pace to forgive because although their symptoms were the same, they all had differences too.

I think its normal to still be angry in your situation. It is not easy to get over. But holding onto anger is not good for you either. Unfortunately I don't have much advise but I hope in time the memories are less painful.

[Michelle27]

I struggle with forgiveness too.  I know forgiveness would be for me, not for him, but I still feel as if doing so would bring the walls of protection down and put me at risk from not just him, but from letting anyone "in" close enough to hurt me.  I can't let that happen anymore.

[letmeout]

I wonder if I have forgiven my ex for lying to me, cheating on me, stealing my money and acting insanely abusive?

Maybe the bigger question is, have I forgiven myself for allowing someone to do those things to me over and over again?

While it may be true that I rarely think about the money, cheating or lying (its been 4 yrs), the mental and verbal abuse still takes up space in my head.

How do you forgive that part of it? 

[Michelle27]

I wonder if I have forgiven my ex for lying to me, cheating on me, stealing my money and acting insanely abusive?

Maybe the bigger question is, have I forgiven myself for allowing someone to do those things to me over and over again?

While it may be true that I rarely think about the money, cheating or lying (its been 4 yrs), the mental and verbal abuse still takes up space in my head.

How do you forgive that part of it? 

Bolded part is HUGE for me. I wonder sometimes if I can't forgive him because I have to first forgive myself for allowing myself and my kids to be exposed to abuse. 

[Lonely_Astro]

I wonder if I have forgiven my ex for lying to me, cheating on me, stealing my money and acting insanely abusive?

Maybe the bigger question is, have I forgiven myself for allowing someone to do those things to me over and over again?

While it may be true that I rarely think about the money, cheating or lying (its been 4 yrs), the mental and verbal abuse still takes up space in my head.

How do you forgive that part of it? 

Bolded part is HUGE for me. I wonder sometimes if I can't forgive him because I have to first forgive myself for allowing myself and my kids to be exposed to abuse. 

My answer to that is: yes.  The reason I say that is because when I first had a "relationship" with Jane 3 years ago, I put up with a lot of abuse (emotional, she was never physical).  After it fell apart, I was so angry with her.  I ruminated about all the things she did to me.  Then, one day, I realized that I had let her do those things to me.  Then, I was angry with myself (and still her).  I had longed to get back with her during that time, up until I realized I was letting her abuse me.  After that, I didn't want to have contact with her.  And I didn't, for 3 years.

Then she got herself back together (or so it seemed).  That door opened again and I hesitated to step through it, but I did.  I'm back on the roller coaster but each day brings me closer to getting strong enough to pull away.  Its not that I hate her, no I do still deeply care and love her.  But, even though she's in DBT, I can still see echoes of the past.  Thats enough for me to realize I need to detach and get on with my life. 

Don't beat yourself up over it.  You'll forgive, in time.  Thats one blessing we have: we can forgive ourselves for our mistakes.  They can't or at least it seems that way.

[MakingMyWay]

It pretty difficult for me to forgive. On one hand I know that a lot of how she hurt me is because of the disorder and her having the disorder is not her fault. On the other hand, she did recognise a lot of behaviours that were hurting me, but she still made the conscious choice to continue doing them and to not seek help for why she felt like she needed to. Instead she put the responsibility of making her feel less guilty about it entirely on me. She has apologised to me for what she did and how she acted, but she still did it. Her actions really don't match her words at all.

[mrwigand]

The more I think about it the more I realize that it's not really about forgiveness as I thought. My ex apologized sincerely for the things that hurt me so much, and I truly appreciated her doing that and forgave her. And I'm glad I had an opportunity to apologize as well because I didn't always handle things maturely.

I think it's more that even though we've both made our apologies I don't think things can ever be "okay" between us, at least from my perspective. I'm used to apologies and forgiveness acting as a means to wipe the slate clean. You know, you apologize and you go back to things being fine (not fine as in I and ex get back together, but just that we're "cool". And we are "cool", but I don't think I'll ever get to the place that I thought I wanted to be right after the breakup where she and I could be friends. I hope I get to the place where I could run into her haplessly at a party and not feel a really visceral pang in my chest, but even that seems far off.

[Mutt]

The more I think about it the more I realize that it's not really about forgiveness as I thought. My ex apologized sincerely for the things that hurt me so much, and I truly appreciated her doing that and forgave her. And I'm glad I had an opportunity to apologize as well because I didn't always handle things maturely.

I think it's more that even though we've both made our apologies I don't think things can ever be "okay" between us, at least from my perspective. I'm used to apologies and forgiveness acting as a means to wipe the slate clean. You know, you apologize and you go back to things being fine (not fine as in I and ex get back together, but just that we're "cool". And we are "cool", but I don't think I'll ever get to the place that I thought I wanted to be right after the breakup where she and I could be friends. I hope I get to the place where I could run into her haplessly at a party and not feel a really visceral pang in my chest, but even that seems far off.

mrwigand,

Do you mean that you lost your trust in her and that you feel like you can't trust her?

[myself]

Things are different now.

It makes sense that you've changed.

In the end, we're going to end up where we end up.

Being honest with ourselves helps with progress.

If it's "far away" because you're running, perhaps reconsider.

If it's just the way it is, you will settle in to accepting it.

[mrwigand]

The more I think about it the more I realize that it's not really about forgiveness as I thought. My ex apologized sincerely for the things that hurt me so much, and I truly appreciated her doing that and forgave her. And I'm glad I had an opportunity to apologize as well because I didn't always handle things maturely.

I think it's more that even though we've both made our apologies I don't think things can ever be "okay" between us, at least from my perspective. I'm used to apologies and forgiveness acting as a means to wipe the slate clean. You know, you apologize and you go back to things being fine (not fine as in I and ex get back together, but just that we're "cool". And we are "cool", but I don't think I'll ever get to the place that I thought I wanted to be right after the breakup where she and I could be friends. I hope I get to the place where I could run into her haplessly at a party and not feel a really visceral pang in my chest, but even that seems far off.

mrwigand,

Do you mean that you lost your trust in her and that you feel like you can't trust her?

No, I think she's a trustworthy person, albeit one who hasn't always been considerate of my feelings.

It's more that I wonder if I'll ever fully be able to let it go and be friends with her. First of all, it's not essential that I be friends with her so it's not necessarily a problem. Also, I don't mean it to punish or accuse her, like she's done something wrong. I wish her the best. More like... .Just being around her brings up painful emotions for me, and I know it will be best if she's not in my life. Does that make sense? I really don't want it to seem like I'm holding onto anger or feelings of betrayal. But I do still feel the pain from the way that relationship ended.

Maybe I'll feel different far down the line, but right now even 9 months after the fact I can still feel emotionally raw. Immediately following the breakup I was terrified at the notion that she wouldn't be in my life, but at that time I was probably still addicted to the relationship in some way.

[Invictus01]

No, I think she's a trustworthy person, albeit one who hasn't always been considerate of my feelings.

It's more that I wonder if I'll ever fully be able to let it go and be friends with her. First of all, it's not essential that I be friends with her so it's not necessarily a problem. Also, I don't mean it to punish or accuse her, like she's done something wrong. I wish her the best. More like... .Just being around her brings up painful emotions for me, and I know it will be best if she's not in my life. Does that make sense? I really don't want it to seem like I'm holding onto anger or feelings of betrayal. But I do still feel the pain from the way that relationship ended.

Maybe I'll feel different far down the line, but right now even 9 months after the fact I can still feel emotionally raw. Immediately following the breakup I was terrified at the notion that she wouldn't be in my life, but at that time I was probably still addicted to the relationship in some way.

Almost a year out, exactly in the same spot. She completely disassembled me into a state I had never been in before and really really hope will never be in again. A year out, I really don't hold a grudge against her or anything along those lines. But it's still hurts, so I'd rather not have any contact with her as opposed to staying in contact in hurting myself. I am not a masochist.

[Mutt]

The more I think about it the more I realize that it's not really about forgiveness as I thought. My ex apologized sincerely for the things that hurt me so much, and I truly appreciated her doing that and forgave her. And I'm glad I had an opportunity to apologize as well because I didn't always handle things maturely.

I think it's more that even though we've both made our apologies I don't think things can ever be "okay" between us, at least from my perspective. I'm used to apologies and forgiveness acting as a means to wipe the slate clean. You know, you apologize and you go back to things being fine (not fine as in I and ex get back together, but just that we're "cool". And we are "cool", but I don't think I'll ever get to the place that I thought I wanted to be right after the breakup where she and I could be friends. I hope I get to the place where I could run into her haplessly at a party and not feel a really visceral pang in my chest, but even that seems far off.

mrwigand,

Do you mean that you lost your trust in her and that you feel like you can't trust her?

No, I think she's a trustworthy person, albeit one who hasn't always been considerate of my feelings.

It's more that I wonder if I'll ever fully be able to let it go and be friends with her. First of all, it's not essential that I be friends with her so it's not necessarily a problem. Also, I don't mean it to punish or accuse her, like she's done something wrong. I wish her the best. More like... .Just being around her brings up painful emotions for me, and I know it will be best if she's not in my life. Does that make sense? I really don't want it to seem like I'm holding onto anger or feelings of betrayal. But I do still feel the pain from the way that relationship ended.

Maybe I'll feel different far down the line, but right now even 9 months after the fact I can still feel emotionally raw. Immediately following the breakup I was terrified at the notion that she wouldn't be in my life, but at that time I was probably still addicted to the relationship in some way.

I see what you are saying with how she is not considerate of your feelings. I recall having similar feelings with anxiety that she was not going to be a part of my life either and then having a hard time when I have to see her during switch on and switch off for the kids. I have to see her once a week.

I'm not saying that my experience is the same as your experience or anybody else, but that's how I feel. I don't feel angry with her, I think that I see things differently than when I did in the relationship. I was enmeshed with her and lost my sense of self and things felt confusing, like I had lost a part of myself. I don't feel the same way, I have a strong sense of self and I see the dysfunction clearly but living in dysfunction was day to day for a long time.

That said, I think that what I can find hard is how she invalidated what she had put me through and the collateral damage with her black and white thinking and that she can't see the consequences of her actions, I will give her credit that she does validate sometimes but not for the things that she had done post break-up and it can feel like running a marathon when she does validate.

I forgave myself first, and I also forgave her but I didn't tell her, later she had said that she had forgiven me and it sounded like fantasy, she said whatever I'm holding unto let it go because I forgive you and it feels great, I had noticed that I wasn't split as black as before and I was slowly being split white.

That said, what I do find that helps when I get triggered before I know that I have to be around her is that I let myself feel and identify what emotions I am feeling and then I use mindfulness that way it helps condition the emotional triggers and eventually I don't feel the same emotional triggers when I am around her.

[elessar]

It depends on what our definition of forgiveness is. I haven't forgiven her, because I don't think everything can be or should be forgiven. But I have made peace with how she is. Most people say that we should forgive others for our own sake. But if you can find peace within you without forgiving someone, then I don't think forgiveness is necessary. It also depends if they have asked for forgiveness. It also depends if they had been warned multiple times not to do something and they still did it. There are a lot of variables and I don't think there should be a black and white answer if forgiveness is right or wrong.

One thing that became my pet peeve over the years was that people assume they can do whatever they want and then ask for forgiveness, and if you cannot forgive them then you are the bad person. I think actions have consequences. And maybe there are instances in life where it is okay not to forgive someone.

[Lonely_Astro]

It depends on what our definition of forgiveness is. I haven't forgiven her, because I don't think everything can be or should be forgiven. But I have made peace with how she is. Most people say that we should forgive others for our own sake. But if you can find peace within you without forgiving someone, then I don't think forgiveness is necessary. It also depends if they have asked for forgiveness. It also depends if they had been warned multiple times not to do something and they still did it. There are a lot of variables and I don't think there should be a black and white answer if forgiveness is right or wrong.

One thing that became my pet peeve over the years was that people assume they can do whatever they want and then ask for forgiveness, and if you cannot forgive them then you are the bad person. I think actions have consequences. And maybe there are instances in life where it is okay not to forgive someone.

elessar,  I feel like you have forgiven whether you want to say you have or not.  You have come to terms with what happened and accepted "how she is".  Forgiveness, for me, isn't about excusing what they did, its coming to terms with it in your own way and moving on.  You haven't forgotten "how they are" or "what they've done" to you, you've just moved on from it.  That, for me, is the mere definition of forgiveness.

[balletomane]

No, I think she's a trustworthy person, albeit one who hasn't always been considerate of my feelings.

It's more that I wonder if I'll ever fully be able to let it go and be friends with her. First of all, it's not essential that I be friends with her so it's not necessarily a problem. Also, I don't mean it to punish or accuse her, like she's done something wrong. I wish her the best. More like... .Just being around her brings up painful emotions for me, and I know it will be best if she's not in my life. Does that make sense? I really don't want it to seem like I'm holding onto anger or feelings of betrayal. But I do still feel the pain from the way that relationship ended.

Maybe I'll feel different far down the line, but right now even 9 months after the fact I can still feel emotionally raw. Immediately following the breakup I was terrified at the notion that she wouldn't be in my life, but at that time I was probably still addicted to the relationship in some way.

Almost a year out, exactly in the same spot. She completely disassembled me into a state I had never been in before and really really hope will never be in again. A year out, I really don't hold a grudge against her or anything along those lines. But it's still hurts, so I'd rather not have any contact with her as opposed to staying in contact in hurting myself. I am not a masochist.

I am in a similar-ish position. I don't hold a grudge. I have always seen his behaviour as the consequences of illness and I've always had compassion on him for that. Only recently have I started to experience flashes of anger, and the thought that maybe it wasn't all illness. But I try not to think about things he said and did to me, because it upsets me too much, so I can't explore this thought. I carry the weight of our last meeting, and a more general sense of pain and bewilderment and hurt; but I avoid thinking about everything that came before the last meeting. It's as if the whole relationship is a door with a massive DO NOT ENTER sign on it. I'm always conscious of what lies behind it, every moment of every day, but I don't go through, if that makes sense.

Even though I don't feel resentment towards him, more sadness, I'm not sure I wish him the best either - unless the best involves him recognising that his behaviour hurts people and doing something to change it. It seems unjust that I should be in pain while he left me at the roadside without a second thought and drove off to be with someone else. When I think of what I want for him, what I want for me intrudes - I want an apology, or at least some recognition that he hurt me, and I want the reassurance that I did matter. I've never heard him say sorry to me, not for anything, not once. It's hard to let go of the belief that if only he would acknowledge my pain and his role in it, I might start to feel better. So have I forgiven him? Yes, but I can't forget the source of hurt and I can't move on yet.

[Lonely_Astro]

No, I think she's a trustworthy person, albeit one who hasn't always been considerate of my feelings.

It's more that I wonder if I'll ever fully be able to let it go and be friends with her. First of all, it's not essential that I be friends with her so it's not necessarily a problem. Also, I don't mean it to punish or accuse her, like she's done something wrong. I wish her the best. More like... .Just being around her brings up painful emotions for me, and I know it will be best if she's not in my life. Does that make sense? I really don't want it to seem like I'm holding onto anger or feelings of betrayal. But I do still feel the pain from the way that relationship ended.

Maybe I'll feel different far down the line, but right now even 9 months after the fact I can still feel emotionally raw. Immediately following the breakup I was terrified at the notion that she wouldn't be in my life, but at that time I was probably still addicted to the relationship in some way.

Almost a year out, exactly in the same spot. She completely disassembled me into a state I had never been in before and really really hope will never be in again. A year out, I really don't hold a grudge against her or anything along those lines. But it's still hurts, so I'd rather not have any contact with her as opposed to staying in contact in hurting myself. I am not a masochist.

I am in a similar-ish position. I don't hold a grudge. I have always seen his behaviour as the consequences of illness and I've always had compassion on him for that. Only recently have I started to experience flashes of anger, and the thought that maybe it wasn't all illness. But I try not to think about things he said and did to me, because it upsets me too much, so I can't explore this thought. I carry the weight of our last meeting, and a more general sense of pain and bewilderment and hurt; but I avoid thinking about everything that came before the last meeting. It's as if the whole relationship is a door with a massive DO NOT ENTER sign on it. I'm always conscious of what lies behind it, every moment of every day, but I don't go through, if that makes sense.

Even though I don't feel resentment towards him, more sadness, I'm not sure I wish him the best either - unless the best involves him recognising that his behaviour hurts people and doing something to change it. It seems unjust that I should be in pain while he left me at the roadside without a second thought and drove off to be with someone else. When I think of what I want for him, what I want for me intrudes - I want an apology, or at least some recognition that he hurt me, and I want the reassurance that I did matter. I've never heard him say sorry to me, not for anything, not once. It's hard to let go of the belief that if only he would acknowledge my pain and his role in it, I might start to feel better. So have I forgiven him? Yes, but I can't forget the source of hurt and I can't move on yet.

This is the hardest part or at least it was for me.  In the past, I longed for closure.  I wanted to know that I had meant something to her.  In part, at times, I think I did.  Years after we went NC and re-established contact, she openly talked about what she had done to me.  She apologized in what I felt was a true apology - there was no manipulation to it.  It was sincere.  She didn't have to do it, she just did.  But I had "waited" a long time for the apology.  It wasn't until I had forgiven myself and moved on, she no longer in the front of my mind (even though I did think of her daily), that it came.  We began to talk more and more after that and she seemed stable, almost normal.  We started a relationship again shortly thereafter.

Yes, some would say I fell for the illusion again.  It was normal, happy for the first few months, but like all BPD relationships (it seems, anyway) it wasn't long term before things became strained.  She wasn't as bad to me this go around as she was before, but I put a stop to it before I traveled down that path.  I feel better (and worse) for doing it.  I had hoped she had changed, but she didn't.  I'm not really seeking closure this time, even though I did get somewhat of that, I just know she'll move on and find someone else (if she hasn't done so already).  Will she find someone who will be better with her?  I don't know.  Maybe she'll meet someone after DBT (if she stays with it) and have a happy, successful, and fulfilled life.  I will be happy for her, if she does.  She doesn't hold the key to my happiness and its time for me to reflect on why I rode the rollercoaster again.  I found my Zen once, which has now been skewed to ridiculous proportions... .but I had it once, I'll find it again.  Best of luck to you on your journey, balletomane.