Q) Can you reason with a pwBPD?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I was just wondering if anyone had success with trying to Reason with their pwBPD.

I also wonder if there are certain subjects that you CAN reason with them but those subjects which make them "look at themselves"... .or those subjects which cause them to take responsibility etc.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My exuBPDgf is intelligent, and I could reason with her on many topics. But I could not get her to see her behavior as it effected me. Almost like if she admitted to being wrong, it would be the END of things.

[JohnnyShoes]

I was just wondering if anyone had success with trying to Reason with their pwBPD.

I also wonder if there are certain subjects that you CAN reason with them but those subjects which make them "look at themselves"... .or those subjects which cause them to take responsibility etc.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My exuBPDgf is intelligent, and I could reason with her on many topics. But I could not get her to see her behavior as it effected me. Almost like if she admitted to being wrong, it would be the END of things.

[hollycat]

I had the exact same experience with my BpdH.  He has a genius level IQ; I also think he has Asperger's.  On many topics, we could discuss intelligently and have a good conversation.  But when it came to our relationship, no. It's like they have blinders on.  The smallest comment from me about anything personal he would take as a most hateful criticism.  There was no reasoning with him at all. He only sees from his victim point of view.  The phrase "accept responsibility" is not in his vocabulary. :/  And forget about an apology. Even if I was able to prove him wrong, he would say: "okay."

[toddinrochester]

No. I was able to get the answers from her. Once she knew that I knew about her disorder she became very suspicious of everything I said or did. I was literally white for a 5 hour phone call and then three hours later black. White again then black yesterday. Its impossible to know how to know exactly who you are getting on the other side of the phone. She refuses to see me in person because she knows that I know about object constancy. I don't care anymore though. I think if you can try to reason with an unreasonable person long enough you start to lose what ever drew you to them in the first place. I hope she gets help. I hope that she can beat this but knowing that she lies to her therapists and she seems somewhat comfortable in her chaotic mind lead me to believe there is no hope for her. She has a Doctorate and two undergrad degrees from the UofR. She is incredibly smart. But her emotional age is literally that of a 6 year old. I have no idea what I was attracted too. Its almost as if the fuzzy instagram filter was removed and I saw how the person looked in real light. Its eye opening.

[Mr Hollande]

I had plenty of success reasoning with mine. After hours of conversation, convincing, grovelling, pleading and what have you. Then the bolder rolled down the hill an hour, day, week or, if I was lucky, a month later.

[SummerStorm]

Feelings = facts, and reasoning involves logic, so it's basically impossible, IMHO.  

Their shame prevents them from taking responsibility.  I tried to get her to take responsibility, and she wouldn't.  When she sent me a card five weeks after ending our friendship, the only thing she could come up with was, "I know I wasn't exactly the friend you thought I was."  Understatement of the year.  

I couldn't even reason with her about why calling off work so often was a bad idea if she wanted to try to get a full-time job in the school district this year.  Feelings = facts, and at that point, her feelings were that she just didn't care anymore.  

She robbed her ex-boyfriend, and after he called her and she told him she was "busy" (at the Renaissance Faire!) and couldn't talk, he called the cops.  She denied everything to them.  Then, he tried calling her again, and she never answered.  That was over a month ago, and he hasn't heard a peep from her.  

pwBPD are so caught up in their own needs and emotions that they can't see how others are affected by their actions.    

[JohnnyShoes]

I had the exact same experience with my BpdH.  He has a genius level IQ; I also think he has Asperger's.  On many topics, we could discuss intelligently and have a good conversation.  But when it came to our relationship, no. It's like they have blinders on.  The smallest comment from me about anything personal he would take as a most hateful criticism.  There was no reasoning with him at all. He only sees from his victim point of view.  The phrase "accept responsibility" is not in his vocabulary. :/  And forget about an apology. Even if I was able to prove him wrong, he would say: "okay."

Exactly - when it came to the relationship... there was no "Talking About Us".

Weird. I wonder why that was.

Cause that was the beginning of the troubles.

Early on I was TRAINED to not voice my feelings... .Cause it wouldn't be received well.

[hollycat]

The only relationship talking that was done involved his feelings and needs and how I wasn't meeting them. Of course, he felt he was meeting ALL of my feelings and needs because of course he is always right, he knows the truth and he does everything perfectly all the time.

Huh.

Attempting to reason and explain he is not 100% right, 100% of the time, was unsuccessful, unfruitful and frustrating for me.  And I have the texts to prove it.

Our texts always boil down to him declaring ME the sick one.

[Jaded11]

I was just wondering if anyone had success with trying to Reason with their pwBPD.

I also wonder if there are certain subjects that you CAN reason with them but those subjects which make them "look at themselves"... .or those subjects which cause them to take responsibility etc.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My exuBPDgf is intelligent, and I could reason with her on many topics. But I could not get her to see her behavior as it effected me. Almost like if she admitted to being wrong, it would be the END of things.

@Dear JohnyShoes,

I firmly believe that YES, you CAN reason with a pwBPD. How I see it, it really only has to do with Timing. And it's with a capital T, because I want to emphasise how crucial I consider it to be .


In my experience with my partner  (or ex partner,  it's on off so I can't really label it  ) when he is calm, or his "real self ", or balanced - then communication is not only possible but authentic and beautiful. He is however someone who has been seeking and receiving help amd who is constantly active and busy with his self-awareness and self-improvement. I don't know if this openness to reasonable and mature communication would be the same for an untreated pwBPD. In fact I really doubt it, based on my experience with my partner prior to treatment. This communication is not possible when he is dissociative, like during a rage episode.

Also I regard several topics as more sensitive than others. Basically anything that can be perceived as criticism or disagreement (=link with rejection/abandonment issues and deeply rooted insecurities ) . I find that if a pwBPD feels he is losing control,  or threatened,  then it becomes increasingly difficult to not "activate" them into becoming impossibly difficult to communicate reasonably with. .

[JohnnyShoes]

. But her emotional age is literally that of a 6 year old.

Yes, my ex as well.

She lives with her daughter (32)

Sometimes you wouldn't know who the parent was. Some things I just can't even mention.

Crazy thing is, I turned a blind eye to it. Amazing

[JohnnyShoes]

pwBPD are so caught up in their own needs and emotions that they can't see how others are affected by their actions.    

I like this. It was all about her. My ex's bday was past Friday. We hadn't been in contact for 3 weeks. During which she wouldn't return my call. She had called 2 weeks before her birthday, but I refused her call.

So, after her birthday weekend she calls... I deleted the VM, but I would wager she called to guilt me for "forgetting" her bday.

Not that we hadn't spoke in almost a month!

[ForeverDad]

Can you reason with a pwBPD?  Only when - and as long as - the person wants to.  Most are in extreme Denial and are prone to reject anything perceived as correction or criticism.

If the pwBPD is not in effective and progressing therapy, applied in life and thinking, then the odds are low.

[SummerStorm]

I had the exact same experience with my BpdH.  He has a genius level IQ; I also think he has Asperger's.  On many topics, we could discuss intelligently and have a good conversation.  But when it came to our relationship, no. It's like they have blinders on.  The smallest comment from me about anything personal he would take as a most hateful criticism.  There was no reasoning with him at all. He only sees from his victim point of view.  The phrase "accept responsibility" is not in his vocabulary. :/  And forget about an apology. Even if I was able to prove him wrong, he would say: "okay."

Exactly - when it came to the relationship... there was no "Talking About Us".

Weird. I wonder why that was.

Cause that was the beginning of the troubles.

Early on I was TRAINED to not voice my feelings... .Cause it wouldn't be received well.

Yeah, I basically shut off my feelings because I knew that talking about them would never happen.  And forget talking about our relationship, the status of it, etc. 

[Bigmd]

In my experience with exgf there was no reasoning in the end. No matter how many times I said I loved her, or she was the only one for men. Promised her a house and a ring. She didn't want to hear it during our last phone call. Even during our relationship most of our arguments ended with her hanging up on me , silent treatment , and then me apologizing .

[nowwhatz]

in my experience no. Tried many, many times.

[Learning Fast]

Rarely if at all and fleeting at best.  There would be moments of clarity but they would disappear as quickly as they surfaced.  To dovetail on Todd in R's comments---she is exceptionally bright with a law degree from Northwestern (graduated top 10% of her class).  Incredible memory and grasp of current affairs, politics, etc.  Extremely knowledgeable when it came to culture, the arts or fashion.  Unfortunately, emotionally she's a little girl trapped in the body of a middle aged woman.  Terribly sad as she could be so much more.

[Mutt]

Almost like if she admitted to being wrong, it would be the END of things.

JohnnyShoes,

A personality disorder is a chronic pattern of rigid thinking, maladaptive coping behaviors and often the person is used to their  way of thinking and may not be aware that they have a personality disorder. BPD is a persecution complex and the person projects and believes their circumstances are from other people's actions.

My ex us undiagnosed,I was with her for several years, I was unaware of personality disorders and after a few years of her projections I started to clue in that there was something seriously wrong. The thought had crossed my mind "How is it possible that she always has an answer for everything and is never wrong, it's impossible"

[toddinrochester]

The best thing that I have learned from this is that I will always put myself first. I am having conversations where I now do not sacrifice what I want. I put everyone before me. Now. You gotta look out for number 1... .That's me. I am 1.

[hopealways]

No.

[Michelle27]

No.  Not in any real way.  I tried for the better part of a decade and it wasn't until I was almost out the door and he knew it that he started saying the right things.  But that's the problem... .he knew what to say, but he didn't know how to move forward with it and follow through.  Can you say manipulation?   

[outside9x]

I found it near impossible and especially when the modes goes from white to black.  Once that startS happening all bets are off.  Her control of herself, is not there and you become a target at her whim,  and no matter how intelligent they are, and yes,  they hear just fine but refuse to listen to your words,  to them, it's just a bunch of non-truths and you are trying to plead your case for their forgiveness.  It hurts them to admit things, so that will not happen, you will not get through.  It hurts deeply and some may be getting treatment like CoDa, or some other 12 step program etc, but they do so always as the victim that they have been used or abused, and never looking at all at themselves.  Victims always, and you once were the knight in shining armor but no more.

Anyway, as one person put it, and its funny but true, you would have better luck, talking to your neighbors cat and having the cat understand you then them.  But like one person said, if they are in a serious treatment plan and stick to it, then I think there is always a chance.  Otherwise they just use different groups to gain acceptance to peel shame off themselves and on the last EX.  That's my experience and reconciling under their terms is brutal at best, they will make things up how you did this or that, to try to make you feel guilty, and any little glean of truth or tiny fact they will use and again, you'll be digging in your heels to correct the wrong to make her see you love her and it's not true etc,.  IT DOESN'T MATTER, IT'S USELESS, ITS A ENDLESS MERRY GO ROUND

[once removed]

for every twisted, irrational argument my ex and i had, we had at least one completely reasonable argument where we expressed ourselves and came to resolution.

when i couldnt reason, i couldnt reason. when i could i could. i do suspect that when i couldnt, communication techniques would have helped a lot.

[greenmonkey]

I guess the answer is can you reason with a 5 year old ? Reasoning with BPD ex was just that - circular talks, and at every opportunity it was twisted - just exhausting

[JohnnyShoes]

Thanks for everyone's input and sharing their knowledge and experiences.

It's all been helpful in trying to talk myself out of yet contacting the ex and possibly reasoning with her.

To try to get her to see things from within my shoes.

Wishful thinking.

[griff24]

Simple answer. No you can't. Even if by some miracle you manage to get a calm response when confronting them with the their own wrong-doings (which as you will know are frequent), it will still be you who has 'wronged' them in their mind whether they say it to you, or behind your back via their smear campaigns.

[Gonzalo]

I could hold a reasonable conversation with my ex- about a host of topics, even general relationship ideas. What I couldn't reason with her about was anything to do with OUR relationship, her past relationships, her issues, or my feelings. If we talked about relationships and agreements and treating your partner well in a general sense, we could have an interesting, normal tone conversation. But if she felt that it was touching on her (the third-party thing we were discussing reminded her of something she did in the past), it was minefield time. She would talk to a friend at length about the need for acceptance and empathy and seeing the other person's point of view... .but she adamantly refused to accept that I had my own opinions, or to understand the thoughts behind what I wanted.

It makes sense, as the disorder has to do with extreme emotions and broken coping mechanisms. If we weren't touching on her, she didn't need to cope with anything, and could be rational. But if we did touch on her, or hit emotions, then it was time for a BPD-splosion of rage or sadness or blame.