The chaos in their heads, the anger and frustration

[steelwork]

They read up and they know. But they admit it when it suits them, or in rare moments of clarity.

I guess this is why treatment is so difficult. They have to commit to the idea they've got a personality disorder when one of the effects of that disorder is that it makes them emotionally volatile, and they confuse feelings with facts.

Bravo to those who even get on the path. But man oh man did I dodge a bullet, because I can't walk that path with him.

[JaneStorm]

They read up and they know. But they admit it when it suits them, or in rare moments of clarity.

I guess this is why treatment is so difficult. They have to commit to the idea they've got a personality disorder when one of the effects of that disorder is that it makes them emotionally volatile, and they confuse feelings with facts.

Bravo to those who even get on the path. But man oh man did I dodge a bullet, because I can't walk that path with him.

So true. I am NC and still getting loving texts from him. Moments of clarity are rare and he more often would morph into blame and what I need to do to work around his dysfunction: "You need to work towards ZERO defensiveness with me... ." Whaaaa? 

[Moselle]

Yes. They go in and out of the delusion. Admitting sometimes and denying at others.

We had a three month run of therapy with BPD awareness after 4 years of various therapist and psychiatrists. Then it fell apart.

They ultimately make a choice for health or a choice for the disease.

Mine gave up and chose the disease... .sadly.

That's the risk we take when we enforce our boundaries. They go one way or the other and its their choice.

[steve195915]

Yes. They go in and out of the delusion. Admitting sometimes and denying at others.

My ex would say her behavior of intense anger outbursts was due to her "fire" which in her mind was nothing wrong with her nor improper behavior.  She was also verbally abusive but she wouldn't admit that,  she would say she is honest and just says what she thinks. 

A few rare times she actually asked me why I would want to be with a person like her, so sometimes it almost seemed like she did have some sort of passing awareness that her behavior wasn't proper but then again it may have been said to manipulate the situation.  No way would she directly admit she has something wrong with her or assuming responsibility for her behavior.  It was always someone else's fault. 

[hashtag_loyal]

Please don't invalidate me.

I'm truly sorry you felt invalidated. It was late at night when I responded and I didn't have time to fully explain my position, but I can see how you might consider a one-word response to be flippant. It was not intended as such, and I am sorry.

I find that compassion and perspective-taking helps me. I feel less like a hated person. Less like it was all my delusion.

Maybe bitterness helps you.

If you checked out my post history you might see that I'm quite possibly one of the least bitter people on this site. I think you are severely underestimating my level of insight and empathy. However, I realize that this is an anonymous board and you would have no way of knowing anything about the history of mental illness within my own family, and the severe emotional pain I have had to live with for years, long before I ever met my dBPDxgf.

This is all neither here nor there, so here is my original argument:

Who would these people be trying to manipulate on an anonymous forum?

Themselves

I think we're all here because we want to detach from painful relationships in which we feel BPD played a role. I found on that forum a lot of evidence of people grappling with the illness, trying to sort through their distorted thoughts and out-of-control emotions. Sometimes people downplay or fail to see the way they've hurt other people. That's a shame, but I guess if you are seeking validation for YOUR feelings it's not the place to look. Just as this would not be the plAce for someone with BPD to find validation. There is not a psych forum anywhere where you won't find sufferers foregrounding their own pain because they're hoping for understanding and even sympathy.

(First off, I'm not actually seeking validation here or anywhere. I received that from reading through hundreds of posts on this site long before I ever started posting and realizing that everyone's experience was exactly the same. I'm here because I seek understanding about BPD, and I originally responded to your rhetorical question because I felt that it inaccurately generalized all pwBPD in a way that didn't account for some important aspects of the disorder.)

I think it is important to note that a big part of BPD is the failure of pwBPD to take personal responsibility for their actions, to blame others for their faults, and to perpetually feel victimized. This trait is often manifested by pwBPD exaggerating the extent of the harm/abandonment they have received from others, and understating their own blame or the harm that they themselves have caused. Often, pwBPD lie to others and even to themselves.

Even courageous pwBPD who have a high level of self-awareness and who have taken extreme steps to understand themselves are still prone to this line of thinking.

Furthermore, many pwBPD live in a constant level of denial, and prefer the comfort of those people who believe their stories of perpetual persecution and will push away those who tell them the unpleasant truth and call them out for it. Where better to find people who will comment on and agree with your perspective than on an online forum of like-minded people where (unlike in real life) you can tell your audience exactly what you want to say and they have no way of knowing if you are lying or hiding any details? Especially one where you can choose to disclose some details of personal wrongdoing and get compliments for your "courage" in the process? What one might call "validation", another might easily consider "enabling".

Look, I would tend to agree with you that the vast majority of pwBPD on that site are truthfully trying as hard as they can to grapple with what is truly a disabling illness. But some of them probably aren't, and even the ones that are trying their hardest, are still prone to slipping up once in a while. I strongly encourage everyone to be cautious when listening to anything a pwBPD says. Just because it is on an anonymous internet board does not mean there is no incentive to manipulate.

Furthermore, someone show me where this person is manipulating herself or anyone else in what she writes

I don't know that person and cannot speak for her. However, your original question referenced "these people", so I figured you were talking about pwBPD in general.

[steelwork]

hashtag_loyal, I apologize for implying that you were bitter. You're right... .I don't know you at all.

As to your description of people with BPD IN GENERAL, I have no disagreement!

I copied a link to that forum for a simple reason: because reading some of those posts (not all of them, of course) provided me with a little view of the thought processes and the emotional pain that these people are going through. (To be clear: meaning the people on the forum.)

It helped me, because I am still susceptible to trying to analyze what happened in my relationship as though I had been dealing with an emotionally healthy person. It helps me to remember that the conversations we had reached him in a much different form than the ones I thought we were having. Etc.

What I did not share the link for: To suggest that this level of self-awareness is the norm, or to suggest it's not true that all of us here have been gaslit, manipulated, abused, lied to in our personal relationships.

I will defend my opinion that at least some of the people  on that forum are exhibiting good will. I will defend the opinion that I see no particular reason for them to manipulate each other on an anonymous forum like that--and nothing manipulative or self-serving in the posts I indicated. Yes, some of them are certainly deluding themselves. But that is beside the point.

But again, I'm sorry for calling out what seemed to me like a bitter and dismissive comment.

And I'm glad to see some productive discussion on this thread.

[steelwork]

I think it is important to note that a big part of BPD is the failure of pwBPD to take personal responsibility for their actions, to blame others for their faults, and to perpetually feel victimized. This trait is often manifested by pwBPD exaggerating the extent of the harm/abandonment they have received from others, and understating their own blame or the harm that they themselves have caused. Often, pwBPD lie to others and even to themselves.

Even courageous pwBPD who have a high level of self-awareness and who have taken extreme steps to understand themselves are still prone to this line of thinking.

Where or how did I suggest this wasn't the case?

[Mutt]

I would like to remind all of the guideline regarding links to personal posts on outside messages-boards. Posters others board often feel very violated to have their posts evaluated here - the same as our members feel when it happens the other way around.

1.5 Outside Services and Links: Members are very much encouraged post links to outside services and educational websites - this is an important part of the education process. We appreciate your collaboration and assistance in presenting competent and ethical material to the members. You are our eyes and ears for new material.

Prior to posting, we ask that you screen your material to ensure that it is consistent with conventional clinical or legal precepts. Links to inspirational and self-awareness material from established and reputable sites are also permitted.

Links to online therapists / life coaches are not permitted. Links to rant / venting sites, romance and dating sites, advocacy, and miracle cure sites are not permitted. Members may not recruit, solicit, or sell to other members. Members are also asked to respect the privacy and author's rights to respond by not to posting links (or copy/pasting) discussions posted on other message boards or in personal blogs/journals.

[steelwork]

I did not realize there was a policy about linking to outside forums. Apologies to all.

[Skip]

I did not realize there was a policy about linking to outside forums. Apologies to all.

No worries - its fixed  

We don't host these discussions because they can incite "board wars". We've has a few in the past.  

Our members get pretty upset when a vulnerable thread gets picked apart and we are all characterized as being the one or two of the most extreme people in that thread. That's a distorted view of the diverse members here.

We don't want to do the same.

When reading a "BPD" board, I read pretty selectively.  I look for an intelligent person without an obvious agenda and with something that aligns with the clinical material I've read, my experience, and reasoned sensibility. I don't know how someone is emotional stress (like many members here) can safely read through that without grabbing onto some misleading "stuff".  So be careful.

[enlighten me]

I agree skip

Its a dangerous place to go when vulnerable. I had a look at it today and read a lot and what interested me was how little reference to partners and empathy. Also the intelligent posts where few and far between and there was a lot of encouraging of the hurtful behaviour. It reminded me of how my exgf tried to encourage others to cheat to justify her doing it.

Very sad.

[Skip]

Are you talking about empathy (the ability to read/understand other people and feed it back to them) or compassion (the ability to feel sorry and compassionate for).

Remember enlighten me, a lot of the people on that boards are diagnosed and have been institutionalized - that's not the profile of our typical members ex. We have some, but it's in the minority.

[enlighten me]

Both empathy and compassion.

[Mutt]

At first I found it difficult to read BPD boards when I was grieving the loss of our relationship. My ex wife didn't share with me her true feelings except for once a few years into the relationship where she said that she was worried about her suicidal thoughts and how that would affect the kids if she went through with it because she felt miserable with our marriage. That's the only memory that I can recall where she spoke about how she felt.

I appreciated reading posts from members with BPD because the person was sharing honest feelings about the disorder and I think that it takes courage to talk about mental illness, something that my ex wife likely felt too ashamed of to share with me. I feel like there's a stigma attached to mental illness in general and I think that it helps when we share with how we feel with others.

I found that I was able to read and absorb posts differently at the beginning and later in my healing journey.

[Learning Fast]

I'm for anything that can help us learn, understand and become better informed about the disorder.  I have followed PF and other "for those with BPD" sites on and off for several months.  In my case it has helped me replace much of my hurt and anger with compassion and empathy for those who are afflicted.

That being said, a couple of caveats: these forums aren't for everyone and probably wouldn't be a great resource for those who suffered the full onslaught of low-functioning pwPDB behavior (mine was BPD "lite" compared to much of what I've read).  Additionally, we shouldn't "marry" the commentary on these sites--ie, "date" the commentary but don't marry it.  Finally, as we all know very well, no one (non or pwBPD) is the same and we all approach the healing process differently.

LF

[CharWood]

Somebody said this earlier on a post:

"Mine was also capable of self-awareness.  The problem was she couldn't sustain it.  She could recognize parts of herself that she despised but couldn't really keep the self-awareness active in order to prevent those parts of her that caused all the hurtful behavior.  This is where I think some gentle guidance would have been helpful to keep her more self-aware of her actions and potential consequences.  She has a problem with acting without thinking of the consequences first."

Mine too is capable, to some degree, of self awareness... .but she also knows that acknowledging her BPD could open the door for her to get what she wants... .so sometimes when she finds it convenient, she plays the "I have BPD. you are right, I need help. Im so damaged" card... and never follows through. BUT, there have been a couple of times when I saw real raw emotional pain within her and a moment of lucidity where she cries for help and acknowledges that her BPD is truly bringing nothing but suffering and chaos to her life... at times, perhaps, I feel like she thinks she is a prisoner to it... because her mom has BPD and she demonizes therapy and even insults my ex when my ex has brought up going to therapy the two times she has to her mom. There is a lot going on in her head.  My big issue with her is that gentle reinforcement doesn't work... .I can gently try to speak with her about her behavior, the damage she does to other people and herself with her behavior, where her life is going to end up and so on and so on... .I can do it in the most non-accusatory, nicest of ways... .she will immediately lash out and blow up like a powder keg. She told me she feels like I am being "mean" to her and "judging her" and that it is hurtful to her... .but you know what? it is what it is. she is sick. nothing, despite what her mom suggests to her, is normal or healthy about either her or her mom's behavior. And, there has already been a casualty of BPD in that family when one of her younger sisters committed suicide. I wish she could just wake up and get the help she needs before she ends up in serious trouble. TRUTH: A person cannot be helped if they do not take ownership of their problems and want to help them self. period. sometimes you have to radically accept the BPD in your life and care for them from afar. they are like anchors and will bring you down with them if they are not in treatment.

[once removed]

im mostly with skip on this one. ive spent a few minutes a few times reading posts on those forums. i honestly cant say i took away a thing. there is, i think less emotional maturity and self awareness than you would get on average, and id say less than my ex had. we have some "BPD perspectives" here in our articles that ive taken far more away from, like this:

My Definition of Love. I have Borderline Personality Disorder.

[Moselle]

im mostly with skip on this one. ive spent a few minutes a few times reading posts on those forums. i honestly cant say i took away a thing. there is, i think less emotional maturity and self awareness than you would get on average, and id say less than my ex had. we have some "BPD perspectives" here in our articles that ive taken far more away from, like this:

My Definition of Love. I have Borderline Personality Disorder.

Great article - thanks for sharing.  Very insightful. This lady seems quite low on the spectrum. And  though she had dysfunctional relationships doesn't  sound dangerous or co-morbid with other stuff.

She sounds very courageous too.

[steelwork]

Great article - thanks for sharing.  Very insightful. This lady seems quite low on the spectrum. And  though she had dysfunctional relationships doesn't  sound dangerous or co-morbid with other stuff.

She sounds very courageous too.

Gosh. I found that article made me even sadder. Like... .imagining my ex picking up the pieces and having a healthier relationship with my replacement.

Because I'm torn between wishing he missed me and wanting him to be happy.

[JaneStorm]

Great article - thanks for sharing.  Very insightful. This lady seems quite low on the spectrum. And  though she had dysfunctional relationships doesn't  sound dangerous or co-morbid with other stuff.

She sounds very courageous too.

Gosh. I found that article made me even sadder. Like... . imagining my ex picking up the pieces and having a healthier relationship with my replacement.

Because I'm torn between wishing he missed me and wanting him to be happy.

Maybe you will too.