It takes two to tango

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Since, I found this board, I have not found a person or read a post where the member is portraying themselves as a victim.  What I see are wives, fathers, husbands, mothers who are just trying to make sense of their situation.  And when we find hundreds of people that have lived similarly to us, it provides a sense of healing.  I have four kids with my wife.  I wish I could just walk away cold turkey but because of those four kids, I can't.  No matter what, we will be connected for the rest of our lives.  

Really? You didn't see anyone claiming that he/she is a victim? Even in this topic we are discussing is someone a victim or not.

I also see this board as a place where we should find healing. I have compassion towards those people, I am also "that person". But that doesn't have to mean that I don't have a right to an opinion. I am also confused and trying to find my healing path.  Currently, my theory makes sense to my feelings and comparing to everything I have read in last period of my life learning about BPD relationships. But, every problem needs to be observed from different perspectives.

Also, my opinion is that kids are not a reason to stay in unhealthy relationship. You can still be their father by not living with your partner.

Yes, it is much harder when you have kids, I admit. The connection always exists, but you can't let this connection with her hurts you.

And no I'm not NPD or codependent. I did have to go to therapy this time around.  I was just manipulated.  I guess that is where you don' see what we see.  Our partners are not being malicious.  I guess I was built a little more compassionate towards people who might have problems.

Ok, I respect that. I don't know you.

But just for your information, your passive agressive response to me:

You don't see what we see

I was built a little more compassionate towards people

is a book example of NPD element

[blackbirdsong]

Since, I found this board, I have not found a person or read a post where the member is portraying themselves as a victim.  What I see are wives, fathers, husbands, mothers who are just trying to make sense of their situation.  And when we find hundreds of people that have lived similarly to us, it provides a sense of healing.  I have four kids with my wife.  I wish I could just walk away cold turkey but because of those four kids, I can't.  No matter what, we will be connected for the rest of our lives.  

Really? You didn't see anyone claiming that he/she is a victim? Even in this topic we are discussing is someone a victim or not.

I also see this board as a place where we should find healing. I have compassion towards those people, I am also "that person". But that doesn't have to mean that I don't have a right to an opinion. I am also confused and trying to find my healing path.  Currently, my theory makes sense to my feelings and comparing to everything I have read in last period of my life learning about BPD relationships. But, every problem needs to be observed from different perspectives.

Also, my opinion is that kids are not a reason to stay in unhealthy relationship. You can still be their father by not living with your partner.

Yes, it is much harder when you have kids, I admit. The connection always exists, but you can't let this connection with her hurts you.

And no I'm not NPD or codependent. I did have to go to therapy this time around.  I was just manipulated.  I guess that is where you don' see what we see.  Our partners are not being malicious.  I guess I was built a little more compassionate towards people who might have problems.

Ok, I respect that. I don't know you.

But just for your information, your passive agressive response to me:

You don't see what we see

I was built a little more compassionate towards people

is a book example of NPD element

[apollotech]

BBS,

The idealization itself was not unhealthy. Again, that serves a courtship biological function for attraction---it alters brain chemistry. We are supposed to be attracted during idealization, that's normal. But, we're not designed to "stay" in this state. A BPD relationship, in my opinion and from what I have read, doesn't mature out of this. This is where the addiction lingo comes into play: yes, we were addicted... .to our very own self-produced designer drug, our own brain chemistry. This overstimulation over an abnormally overextended period of time can cause PTSD (Unfortunately, some members here can attest to that. When the push/pull finally arrives, now there is constant overstimulation.) So, idealization is normal to a degree and for a period. We are supposed to be attracted to our partner during that time. This is a natural occurance, regardless of the Non's mental/emotional well-being. We cannot escape our biology.

Yes, you did not say that devaluation occurs before idealization. I was making the point that the emotional attachment is formed before the full extent of the disorder is revealed/recognized.

I don't know your story, but I think that you're sharp and very self-aware. I suspect that as you learn more about BPD and look back on the events of your relationship you will discover that you, nor your partner, exercised much control over the relationship. BPD, for the most part, drove the bus, and y'all were passengers.

[blackbirdsong]

BBS,

The idealization itself was not unhealthy. Again, that serves a courtship biological function for attraction---it alters brain chemistry. We are supposed to be attracted during idealization, that's normal. But, we're not designed to "stay" in this state. A BPD relationship, in my opinion and from what I have read, doesn't mature out of this. This is where the addiction lingo comes into play: yes, we were addicted... .to our very own self-produced designer drug, our own brain chemistry. This overstimulation over an abnormally overextended period of time can cause PTSD (Unfortunately, some members here can attest to that. When the push/pull finally arrives, now there is constant overstimulation.) So, idealization is normal to a degree and for a period. We are supposed to be attracted to our partner during that time. This is a natural occurance, regardless of the Non's mental/emotional well-being. We cannot escape our biology.

Yes, you did not say that devaluation occurs before idealization. I was making the point that the emotional attachment is formed before the full extent of the disorder is revealed/recognized.

I don't know your story, but I think that you're sharp and very self-aware. I suspect that as you learn more about BPD and look back on the events of your relationship you will discover that you, nor your partner, exercised much control over the relationship. BPD, for the most part, drove the bus, and y'all were passengers.

Yup, agree with you. I see you are much more expert here, you studied even chemical process of idealization.

So, I agree with you that idealization is part of every relationship. This is that "stomach butterflies" part.

But again, I am talking about too extreme idealization. This too extreme idealization occurs when non-with-issues (I like how someone quoted my term  ) and BPD met and then you have this cinema love case that most of the people are describing. This is unhealthy. This is not normal idealization, like when two emotionally stable persons fall in love.

Also, you said:

I was making the point that the emotional attachment is formed before the full extent of the disorder is revealed/recognized.

Again, agree. The full extent is not showed. But signals definitely exist. And my thinking is that emotionally stable person recognizes this. It doesn't mean that you need to run away. But your inner alarm needs to raise on this event.

[apollotech]

Because I have NPD elements. NPD, in relationship thinks: If I feel bad it must be my fault. This is unhealthy.

BPD thinks: If I feel bad, it must be his/her fault. This is also unhealthy.

And this is endless, unhealthy cycle. Borderline rages, and you are feeding its rage by thinking you can/should fix it.

And by thinking that way, you are feeding their rage. You are triggering even worse reaction. Adding fuel to the fire.

BBS,

Your being afflicted with NPD didn't trigger your ex's BPD. Her emotional attachment/intimacy with you is what triggered her. That cycle that you describe above is told over and over again on these boards, by ppl without any PDs. That was something within your partner; you didn't have control over that. Yes, to some degree it can be managed or made less severe by applying the proper tools (such as S.E.T.), but the BPD is still there and not Non dependent.

[blackbirdsong]

I don't know your story, but I think that you're sharp and very self-aware. I suspect that as you learn more about BPD and look back on the events of your relationship you will discover that you, nor your partner, exercised much control over the relationship. BPD, for the most part, drove the bus, and y'all were passengers.

Thank you for this compliment. But it actually scares me. A lot.

Because this way of thinking is different. Even radical. A lot of people here disagree.

It maybe shows me that I have very developed NPD case. Because NPDs like to be different, special. I don't even know if I have NPD. I just started to go to the therapy. But considering everything I have read, I see a lot of elements. I think I am not too severe NPD, because they usually don't even admit that fact.

I don't know. But currently, I think that this theory is aligned with my current feelings and opinions about my relationship.

This is something I need to discuss with my therapist.

So , I guess I am not so self-aware :D

[eeks]

Hi blackbirdsong,

You sound eager to do some self-examination, to prepare yourself to have more satisfying relationships in future.  That's a good attitude to have.  In order to learn from your experiences in a relationship with a pwBPD and apply that learning to future relationships, it might be helpful to focus on the specifics of what happened. 

Can you tell us more about why you see your ex as having been the "victim" of your behaviour?  What specific behaviours do you believe you engaged in in the relationship that caused harm or triggered your ex emotionally?

Your opinion is that anyone who stays in a relationship with a pwBPD must be "emotionally unstable".  In what ways do you feel you were emotionally unstable in your relationship?  And what did you find yourself saying and doing, when you felt unstable?

Once you know what your feelings and behaviours were, you can start to look at what emotional needs you were trying to meet with those behaviours, and find more effective ways of meeting those needs that don't harm yourself or others.

eeks

[blackbirdsong]

Hi blackbirdsong,

You sound eager to do some self-examination, to prepare yourself to have more satisfying relationships in future.  That's a good attitude to have.  In order to learn from your experiences in a relationship with a pwBPD and apply that learning to future relationships, it might be helpful to focus on the specifics of what happened.  

Can you tell us more about why you see your ex as having been the "victim" of your behaviour?  What specific behaviours do you believe you engaged in in the relationship that caused harm or triggered your ex emotionally?

Your opinion is that anyone who stays in a relationship with a pwBPD must be "emotionally unstable".  In what ways do you feel you were emotionally unstable in your relationship?  And what did you find yourself saying and doing, when you felt unstable?

Hi, I already talked about "victim concept" in this thread. Maybe I have express myself wrong by giving an example of us being victims, and stating that they can also say that they were victims also.

In short: Now (I did after the breakup, even I initiated it) I don't consider myself a victim. Nor do I consider her as a victim of my behavior.

But her emotionally abuse caused me to feel like a victim. But I were not emotionally stable enough to take care of myself, recognize this pattern and stand up for myself saying: "Ok, I understand that you have issues, but you can't pull me in depression. I can try to help you but within these boundaries: ... ."

Also, I believe I entered this relationship with codependency issues. I wanted to be needed, and not to be loved. This is something I see a lot in topics here. We think that we need to save this person in order to be loved, we need to fulfill their irrational requirements to help them, not thinking about ourselves. This is wrong image of what love actually is. Love needs to offer reciprocity. We just gave ourselves to them, not demanding anything back. And we thought that was love.

So it is not some specific behavior (She did that, and then I did that), it is our emotional state that triggered even worse BPD behaviour, because we were feeding their irrational needs and like I said: adding fuel to the fire.

Also, I am not responsible of doing her harm. Her disorder does her harm. I just didn't stood up for myself and didn't took care of myself. And by doing that I fed her disorder.

Once you know what your feelings and behaviours were, you can start to look at what emotional needs you were trying to meet with those behaviours, and find more effective ways of meeting those needs that don't harm yourself or others.

eeks

Yes, that is my plan also. Thank you for your advice. I think I already addressed some FOO issues and behaviors I nurtured so my plan is to start solving this.

[steve195915]

Yes and no. While I agree some (but not all) nons were a bit messed up to begin with, in no way does this mean we deserved the verbal, physical, emotional and financial abuse inflicted by these cretins. Nor did we deserve involvement via outside agencies (i.e: police, lawyers), infidelity, social shunning or character assassination. The cruelty was bone chilling, and no one deserves that.

Right on!

I agree that some nons may also have issues going into the relationship with a pwBPD but I think it's a minority.  If anything many nons get sucked into a relationship because they tend to be very caring and have a desire to help others in need and they attracted to something they sense in a pwBPD.  Then they allow themselves to be brutilized by the pwBPD due to the overcaring nature.  If a non was in a relationship with a normal person these traits can be very beneficial and make a beautiful relationship. 

No one deserves to be treated like described above by Beach_Babe. 

[steelwork]

[quote author=steve195915 link=topic=287199.msg12706347#msg12706347

I agree that some nons may also have issues going into the relationship with a pwBPD but I think it's a minority.  If anything many nons get sucked into a relationship because they tend to be very caring and have a desire to help others in need and they attracted to something they sense in a pwBPD.  [/quote]
Data point of one here... .I just got the report back from my psych eval.

"[shambles's] ability to cognitively empathize with others, born out in her testing, often results in ambivalence and difficulty with decision-making, even when she is treated poorly by others. When relationships are rocky, it's hard for her to hold onto her own perspective and experience. Her ability to think and rethink of new possibilities and various points of view may obfuscate simple facts that show she is being mistreated in relationships."

Doormat Personality Disorder. 

[Moselle]

I agree that some nons may also have issues going into the relationship with a pwBPD but I think it's a minority.  If anything many nons get sucked into a relationship because they tend to be very caring and have a desire to help others in need and they attracted to something they sense in a pwBPD.  Then they allow themselves to be brutilized by the pwBPD due to the overcaring nature.  If a non was in a relationship with a normal person these traits can be very beneficial and make a beautiful relationship. 

I must agree with Steve's assessment here. I can't speak for others, but my BPD/NPD ex played a great victim too and I assumed a caretaking/ rescuer role.

Where true love is concerned, I believe two individuals come together and care for and love themselves first, then eachother. They enjoy verbal, emotional and physical intimacy. This is in stark contrast to the BPD relationship where manipulaton becomes fair game on both sides to fulfil each person's needs. Of the two, I believe the non is in the best position to achieve balanced love.

Once the non has healed some of the wounds around self love and caring , we don't need or want someone to idolise us any more. There's no open need to fulfil and we start to ask healthy questions of those who idolise us or seem overly helpful. The magnetic attraction with a disordered person is gone.

[LostGhost]

Some of us at the start of the relationships were healthy non-dependant people and being in a relationship with someone with BPD or NPD and all between it breaks you down over time, changing you for the worst.

I don't know, but I disagree with this. I believe you cannot be emotionally stable person and enter a relationship with BPD person.

I disagree. Although there are often red flags, I don't think it's human nature to walk around analyzing every encounter we have with people saying "this one is BPD, this one is NPD, this one is schizo, this one is paranoid, this one is xxxxxxx". I think it is good to give people the benefit of the doubt. When she was hyper sexual at the start, I thought she was just a sexual person. When she told me she had childhood issues, I assumed she just had a rough go in life. I never expected what I was entering was a relationship with a disordered individual. In fact it's not until you've been IN a relationship with them for a few months that you begin to realize the gravity of the situation. And then yes, maybe the "healthy" thing to do is to leave. But if a person loves another person, cares about their well being and now has an established romantic history with them full of memories and emotions, who would leave right away? We leave when our ability to tolerate the pain is completely overwhelmed or the pwBPD leaves before we can.

If every person she's entered into a relationship with... .if all the people all of our exes have entered into relationships with are unhealthy... .then the world must be a very unhealthy place.

[blackbirdsong]

If every person she's entered into a relationship with... .if all the people all of our exes have entered into relationships with are unhealthy... .then the world must be a very unhealthy place.

I rest my case  

I need to reformulate this (I think I actually did on my previous posts).

I mean, every person that enters into a relationship with borderline and finishes with "train wreck" feelings after/during this relationship, has some emotional issues.

[steve195915]

I agree that some nons may also have issues going into the relationship with a pwBPD but I think it's a minority.  If anything many nons get sucked into a relationship because they tend to be very caring and have a desire to help others in need and they attracted to something they sense in a pwBPD.  Then they allow themselves to be brutilized by the pwBPD due to the overcaring nature.  If a non was in a relationship with a normal person these traits can be very beneficial and make a beautiful relationship. 

I must agree with Steve's assessment here. I can't speak for others, but my BPD/NPD ex played a great victim too and I assumed a caretaking/ rescuer role.

Where true love is concerned, I believe two individuals come together and care for and love themselves first, then eachother. They enjoy verbal, emotional and physical intimacy. This is in stark contrast to the BPD relationship where manipulaton becomes fair game on both sides to fulfil each person's needs. Of the two, I believe the non is in the best position to achieve balanced love.

Once the non has healed some of the wounds around self love and caring , we don't need or want someone to idolise us any more. There's no open need to fulfil and we start to ask healthy questions of those who idolise us or seem overly helpful. The magnetic attraction with a disordered person is gone.

I think most normal people would love the feeling of their SO showing so much love for them.  I'm not sure exactly what is meant by idolize but the first 3 months my BPDex was on perfect behavior, always said wonderful things about me but not excessive, was happy most of the time but occasionally played the innocent victim so I can come to her rescue, like when asking for money when her car broke down.  I thought it was just normal behavior for having a strong connection of love.  Yes we connected fast but sometimes healthy relationships start that way too.  I don't see how I manipulated her at all.

I don't feel I have an unhealthy need to be idolized but it's a wonderful feeling to have a SO think highly of you and to not be afraid to say so and show it.  Prior to my BPDex relationship I was in a wonderful relationship with a nonBPD SO (8 years) and she treated me wonderfully, always showed love and said good things about me.  Very similiar to how my BPDex treated me except it took longer to get there and was real and not part of manipulation.  The only difference was that my BPDex was much more active and unbelievable in bed, like porno sex.  

Unfortunately my relationship with my non ended because I wouldn't marry her with her 4 daughters.  Probably a big mistake on my part.  

The only thing I would be suspect of the next time is if it happens fast like it did with my BPDex.  I would be definitely be looking for the BPD signs.  

[Mutt]

If every person she's entered into a relationship with... .if all the people all of our exes have entered into relationships with are unhealthy... .then the world must be a very unhealthy place.

I rest my case  

I need to reformulate this (I think I actually did on my previous posts).

I mean, every person that enters into a relationship with borderline and finishes with "train wreck" feelings after/during this relationship, has some emotional issues.

Blackbirdsong,

I don't think that there's a one size fits all for a relationship with a pwBPD. I've read a lot of member posts and some members didn't have FOO issues. I think that what was common with the members that entered our doors is that they all suffered from an emotional wound from a relationship break-up.

That being said we're all different people from different walks of life and we're here to help each other and challenge each others perspectives with what we put out there so that we grow as individuals.

I think that we would be hard pressed to find any partner that doesn't have emotional baggage going into a relationship? Would you agree?

[Yolo]

Throughout all of my past relationships I really thought I'd been a really great partner, all in all. I probably was but I (ME!) was attracted and attached to people that had struggles of their own.  At one point years before my exBPD, a therapist asked me if I had ever looked into co dependency.  Oh lord no! Not me... .I'm the opposite of the needy clingly jealous wimpy stereotype of a "co dependent"

I didn't give it a second thought.  That is when "life" brought out the big guns with my uBPDex. I was in denial that I had any issues.  A few years removed from it now I feel like life was telling me  "OK--Soo do you get it NOW?"

A lot of us enter these relationships Naïve.  We want to believe the best in people and that everyone operates by the golden rule.  They don't and that is a hard lesson.  I lived it.  I'm much wiser for my experience.

The idealization is as much a dysregulation as the "bad stuff".  I see that now... .I didn't before.  I thought it was true love.

We want to believe all that pedestal building was real, and all the venom was a result of a disorder, but they go hand in hand.

It just swings wildly one day to the next. Both are NOT healthy.

Apollotech has been very informative on this thread.

I firmly believe that a healthy person can become entranced momentarily, but also that there are limits and boundaries that are crossed beyond a reasonable person's tolerance that many of us on this board struggle with.  A reasonable person's personal boundaries are not an easily erased line in the sand. A reasonable person does not move the line to accommodate their disbelief that someone who claims to love them could possibly consider trampling them. ( read 2010, I'm paraphrasing but shes a remarkable contributor)

I think I once said on these boards... .I wish I had stronger boundaries at that time, but the end result would be the same. Far less time would have been invested. Either I would have left after a few warnings, or he would have left because he was unable to live within my reasonable expectations. It does take two to tango.

[MakingMyWay]

If every person she's entered into a relationship with... .if all the people all of our exes have entered into relationships with are unhealthy... .then the world must be a very unhealthy place.

I rest my case  

I need to reformulate this (I think I actually did on my previous posts).

I mean, every person that enters into a relationship with borderline and finishes with "train wreck" feelings after/during this relationship, has some emotional issues.

Blackbirdsong,

I don't think that there's a one size fits all for a relationship with a pwBPD.

That being said we're all different people from different walks of life and we're here to help each other and challenge each others perspectives with what we put out there so that we grow as individuals.

Agreed, something I don't like is when people make sweeping statements BPD relationships and the nons who enter into them. This is something I have learnt to avoid through my time here. Everybody needs to remember that despite how similar a lot of our relationships were, the pwBPD and us are still individuals who have had very different experiences with our ex. We all had very different reasons to enter into, stay in and end the relationship with our ex. It can be very dangerous to generalise and assume that our relationships were all the same.

[Michelle27]

When I first discovered the existence of BPD about 5 years ago, including this board, I remember reading about my part in the dysfunction and dismissing it.  At that time, I couldn't see my part at all, only felt like a victim of his behaviors and true to most of us nons and our behavior, I wanted to help "fix" it.  It was a very slow dawning of realization that I did in fact have a part. 

In looking at the relationship, I know that when I met my ex, I was vulnerable.  I was a few months out of an abusive marriage and had the mistaken idea that leaving that marriage was all I needed to do to heal.  I now realize I looked to the idolization of my relationship with my BPD ex to heal me, and that is faulty thinking.  I had to do the work deep inside myself and because I didn't, I was vulnerable to what kept me in the relationship for as long as I was.  There WERE red flags early on, and I chose to believe the things I saw in idealization rather than the red flags.  I also believed I could help or fix him, which I think is a part of me leftover from my FOO as well as my career (I'm a teacher in an inner city school).

My vulnerability at the beginning of the relationship doesn't make me a victim, but I know that's how I felt for a long time (once devaluation began and I began questioning some of the lies I was hearing).  It wasn't until I began to take control over my own responses to his dysregulations, and began to love myself in ways I couldn't before that I began to see my part. I don't blame myself, except perhaps to wish I had worked on myself before entering into a relationship with a pwBPD (even though I didn't know it at the time).

Despite the lies, abuse and devaluation, I don't feel like a victim.  I take responsibility for not responding appropriately and I have been working hard on working on those things that I need to so I ensure I am never in that position again.  I am taking responsibility for me, and refusing responsibility for his behavior.

[blackbirdsong]

Despite the lies, abuse and devaluation, I don't feel like a victim.  I take responsibility for not responding appropriately and I have been working hard on working on those things that I need to so I ensure I am never in that position again.  I am taking responsibility for me, and refusing responsibility for his behavior.

And this is actually my point and reason why I started this topic.