Do we somehow define ourselves as "superior" to people with BPD?

[thisworld]

This has been bothering me for a while. Apart from the crises in our relationship, this is one of the main reasons why I left. I started thinking that simply by existing there as the person I am - a Non- I was inescapably positing myself as superior. I had health, he didn't. I knew what was healthy and he didn't. I showed him compassion but that came at the expense of interpreting his extreme behaviour from a disorder perspective. To me, that implies an innate and inescapable superiority no matter what our intentions are. It's not about our own behaviours, the air we exude or the attitude we choose. It's the way a psychiatrist is somehow superior to a disordered person because he is the authority on "healthy" behaviour. He is able to judge him. I think this may change only if the "disordered" person accepts that they have a problem and take action to solve it with tools the "health" perspective offers. That is, if they own what they have and reclaim their own authority on and ownership of their own "health." Them accepting that they have a problem but trying to cope with it with ineffective tools in interpersonal relationships doesn't solve this problem. We get hurt tremendously but still from a position where we know what is right or what is wrong. What is "normal" and what is "abnormal." I, with whatever reality I have access to, would not knowingly like to be in a relationship where my behaviours were interpreted from this perspective, unless I agreed with that and actively tried to access that other reality. Deep down, simply because of not possessing that authority on "normalcy", I would feel inferior. Maybe I would start an interpersonal war, if that was the only tool to achieve equality.

To me,  this is not about anybody's individual things. It seems like a condition of being a Non with a Non-Non (whatever the diagnosis). My ex partner hurt me in ways I couldn't imagine would have happened - physically and emotionally. But there was something he couldn't change, I was a Non. Almost everything in the world is on the Non's side of reality, morality, perception whatever. This may signify some hidden superiority. I don't know.

I sometimes think whether it would be possible to live with him without this hierarchy that neither of us built. It would be with complete acceptance. No expectations about anything, no definitions or judgments about anything from the Non world. But that would mean leaving my reality and everything I developed within it. Intimacy, attraction, I don't think those would be possible because there wouldn't be a me. And maybe that would give him reason to discard me anyway, who would want to be with a non-existent person?

I don't know. I'm just thinking about this. What do you think?

 

[losingconfidence]

I actually have a friend with BPD who is aware of the BPD and doesn't seem to engage in the kinds of behaviors that send nons to this site. I'm a survivor of trauma and I have C-PTSD and some other conditions that can send people running for the hills, so I understand all too well the need not to judge someone or paint someone black for having a disorder they can't help having.

I think what's more important than "health" versus "illness" or "sane" versus "insane" is looking at what you need versus what the person with BPD needs. The person with BPD's needs will vary as some seem like they're honestly trying to be the best people they can be but just struggle with the disorder a lot while others seem like they kind of use the "whelp, I'm sick, nothing I can do there!" excuse to get away with murder. Of course, there are even some who don't acknowledge any dysfunction at all, and that's super stressful.

One of my most important needs is emotional stability. Because I grew up with an abusive mother, I can't handle a partner who constantly loses her temper, yells, etc., even if she's able to apologize afterward/is working to reduce the likelihood of those explosions. A lot of people with BPD that I've met need partners who are committed for the long haul and will not recoil or back away when the illness flares in ugly, stressful ways. I absolutely 100% cannot do that. It's not as simple as "nons deserve better" for me. There are people who can take the explosions in stride, but I can't.

Honestly, though, I think there are a lot of people in our society who are not necessarily mentally ill, but who just have certain attitudes/expectations about life and relationships that make them toxic and upsetting to be around. I'm reading a book by Lundy Bancroft called "Why Does He Do That?" which suggests that sometimes entitlement and warped expectations can lead to anger, rage, and ultimately, abuse. He theorizes that BPD or depression can make these issues worse but that the underlying attitudes and beliefs an abuser has make him abusive. Of course, his book very firmly focuses on male abusers only for most of it. I'm not sure if your partner was ever what you'd consider abusive or not, but I think that it can feel a little less lousy to look down on entitlement and nasty behavior than to look down on an illness.

I also think that sometimes there's a fine line between "uncomfortable/unfair behavior that comes from an illness" and "abusive behavior." Once it's abusive, then it doesn't really matter what label you attach to it. Nons can be abusive as well, and ultimately the illness is not an excuse once it reaches that level.

[thisworld]

Losingconfidence, thank you for your thoughtful response.

On the level of interpersonal relationships and our conscious or controlled ways of relating to others, I agree with many of your comments. I also disagree with some but perhaps that is something we could explore later to learn from our differences if we both want it. My original question, however, is not about certain choices that are to a larger degree in our control (our opinions about health, illness, how we choose to respond to what we deem abuse etc). I am trying to think about my relation with my ex partner from a perspective that includes something more than my choices; something cultural, something historical, something that both includes us as beings and is to a degree beyond us. It is like how we speak language but language also speaks us. It is also about the role “reason” has somehow played in our journey as human subjects, or at least its modern cornerstones. This is like some ground that we may consciously disagree with to a degree but still can rarely escape fully – unless we are in a fully psychotic experience perhaps.

On a personal note, I personally believe that we all flow in and out of madness many times in our personal existence every day, but this doesn’t prevent me from finding some arguments of my partner completely irrational or let’s say illogical – and yes, they may have a reason and may be even rational in terms of his survival but at the argument level, they are contradictory and completely illogical. Him arguing that they are logical doesn’t change this basic fact in terms of logic as we know it. Even calling my partner “ex with BPD” puts me in a “knowing” condition and I’m interested in implications (mostly ethical) of being this “knowing subject” in a relationship like mine. Both from my own angle and from that of my partner. I'm searching an answer for this because like many of us, I'm someone who attempts to build a connection between an individual framework of existence and larger things that shape that existence. Equality is a critical concept for me at this level and I'm trying to understand its reflections in what I went through.

Thanks again, for responding.   

[Reforming]

Hi thisworld

It's an interesting subject and I agree that there can be a lot of stigma attached to mental health diagnosis. Nobody want to feel defective or damaged.

If you step away from the constructs of diagnosis, which are just ways to try and frame behaviour in ways that it can understood and ultimately treated, there are a couple of bigger issues for me.

Firstly is someone's behaviour destructive and cruel? Does their behaviour damage others? Nobody has a right damage other people, whether they're diagnosed with a mental health issue or not. This isn't rooted in superiority, it's about of mutual respect, safety and happiness, shared values that are at the foundation of a healthy society.

If you're behaviour isn't harming others than I think you can argue that have a right to live as you please. Though I think it's sad if that behaviour is so destructive that it damages your life and your happiness.

Secondly we all make choices, even those suffering from personality disorders.


Perceiving another person, disordered or not, as a helpless victim is enabling and disempowering. It doesn't help them to meet their challenges and it can very damaging for the so called NON.

Change is possible, there are effective treatments like Schema, DBT, pharmacology that help people modify and change their behaviour so that they can live happier and much more fulfilling lives.

I'm not suggesting it's easy or straight forward but plenty of people have done it and reaped the benefits.The are many people who have overcome physical and mental disability by taking responsibility for their themselves and their lives.

Reforming

[thisworld]

Reforming,

I agree with every word of what you say and live my life in accord with what you have expressed. And that's why when I was writing about this "superiority" - which doesn't have to be represented in our individual behaviours or anything, it may simply be epistemological and we may call it the "inescapable and unwanted authority of the rational knowing subject" to free it from the more negative connotations of the word superiority - I tied it to the condition of seeking or not seeking treatment on behalf of the disordered person. Treatment, working on one's own psychology is ultimately tied to taking responsibility for one's actions and thus freedom. The awareness that comes in that process is also what allows access to another reality that NONs seem to have access to (though in degrees and it's not universal) and conditions for that superiority - or whatever you name it- is now erased. This is because regardless of each person's individual position, everyone is now trying to access some form of reality on a mostly agreed ground.

Without awareness of one's disorder or without taking a conscious, willing to step to solve some problems, I don't believe that a relationship of equals is possible. This isn't because of, say, my inability to treat someone disordered as my equal in an ethical framework. One of my good old friends is schizophrenic now. I treat him as my equal, I don't dictate what is real or not even when he is hallucinating or is psychotic. His reality at that moment may not exist for anyone other than himself at that moment but I accept that it is nevertheless a reality. I clear hallucinatory objects on his way. I have spoken to some of his voices because they are "real"s for him. I don't see him as my superior, just an equal with difference. Still, when he is lucid, he may theorize about this as well and has shared with me that of course his illness is traumatic because he is now kicked out of what some others share - sanity. Not because of us, but because of his condition. When he is psychotic, it is so visible sometimes in his body language, too.

I sometimes think my ex BPD partner feels this to a degree whenever I come up with a rational explanation to something. This is because he may not agree with my logic but cannot deny that it is logical - unless he is blacking but then, even then, it is logical. I, on the other hand, know that certain things he comes up with are not logical things I disagree with but are ultimately illogical - workings of logic as we know were defined before him. I think he is aware of this - even though he would probably be able to admit this only in therapy because of ego needs.

Toward the end of the relationship, I stopped seeing him as someone who has access to what I have - his cognition is distorted even if for the time being. I can feel sad for him - still this doesn't change my reaction to abuse and it's not a moral dictate to feel sad. However, sometimes even compassion may be possible at the expense of equality. I'm questioning the same about forgiveness, too, actually. I think sometimes it builds hierarchy.

Thank you for your response.