Bit at the end of my rope with my mom

[Singingdove]

After yet another frustrating conversation on the phone on the holiday with my mom, I decided to see if there was a support group out there.  Although I have a sister who gets it, I wanted to see if there was more support and I came across this site.  I'm hoping to find some information and support.

[Turkish]

Sure Singingdove,

You'll find support from many fellow travelers here. 

Thanksgiving in the U.S., I'm guessing. What happened in the conversation to upset you? When did you first suspect that mom had BPD?

Turkish

[Singingdove]

I found this site after a frustrating conversation (yet again) with my mom.  I'm 48 and have known for all my life that she has "issues".  In recent years, it's gotten to the point that I only talk with her on her birthday or holidays.  She always complains how lonely she is but if I try to give her some suggestions for how to alleviate it, it ends up being an argument.  I, once again, had to hang up on her (it sucks to have to hang up on your own mom) because she was yelling.  My sister has already gotten to the point that she won't call her at all because it always seems to transpire into an argument. 

Our parents were divorced when I was 8 and my sister 14 and my mom made it hell.  Even though my dad has been dead for 12 years now, she still has to get her "jabs" in.  In fact, I found out that when I got married 7 years ago, that she "cried" to my sister's mother-in-law about dad (from whom she had been divorced since about 1976).  She complains that we don't share with her but when we do try to "converse", it ends up her trying to "win".  We quit sharing intimate details because she uses them against us or oversteps her boundaries and starts trying to find all the info she can on either the person we mention or some other such thing.  Sometimes I can just let her go on and on and pretty much have a "conversation" where she does all the talking and I just listen - even though I'm frustrated beyond belief to sit for 20 minutes and listen to her gab on and on about how she "won" out over such and such a person that she beat out of parking spot or some such dumb thing.  Other times, like on Thanksgiving, I just couldn't put up with her complaining and chose to make a simple suggestion, and she "went" off trying to turn it as though I'm the one with the problem.

I'm quite conflicted.  I'm trying to be a mature daughter and accept the fact that my mom has something severely wrong but don't know if I'm doing more harm than good to let her just gab on about how she "succeeded" over another or call her on her poor behavior and deal with the fallout.  I truly feel bad for her.  She's completely miserable and alone.  At the same time, I'm tired of feeling guilty and dread any time I feel compelled to spend with her when we're in town (she lives out of state).  In fact, I'm tired of the digestive issues I struggle with when I'm in her presence.

Any suggestions or thoughts from those of you out there who have similar experiences?

Thanks!

[Kwamina]

Hi Singingdove

I would like to join Turkish in welcoming you to bpdfamily

I can see why you would feel tired and can relate to your feelings of guilt and dread. We have an article here about fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) that you might find interesting. Here's an excerpt:

... .fear, obligation or guilt ("FOG" are the transactional dynamics at play between the controller and the person being controlled.  Understanding these dynamics are useful to anyone trying to extricate themselves from the controlling behavior by another person and deal with their own compulsions to do things that are uncomfortable, undesirable, burdensome, or self-sacrificing for others.

Do you perhaps feel compelled to spend time with her out of fear, obligation and/or guilt? Do you feel like these things characterize (some of) the relationship dynamics between you and your mother?

You can read the entire article here:

Fear, Obligation And Guilt (FOG): How We Allow Loved Ones To Control Us

Having boundaries is crucial for protecting yourself and preserving your own well-being. I understand why you have stopped sharing intimate details of your life with her. It is sad that your mother seems unable to have a healthy relationship with her own children. You say you have known all your life that your mother has issues. Has your mother, as far as you know, perhaps ever been diagnosed with any kind of mental, emotional and/or behavioral disorder? Has she perhaps ever gotten any kind of treatment or therapy?

For dealing with your mother it might help to look at some specialized communications techniques described on this site:

Express yourself: S.E.T. --> Support, Empathy, Truth

Assert yourself: D.E.A.R.M.A.N. --> Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, Stay Mindful, Appear Confident, Negotiate

How to stop circular arguments: Don't J.A.D.E. = Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain

Take care

[busybee1116]

Your story sounds so familiar! I have had to limit phone calls with my mom to maintain my sanity. If anything, we have more frequent communication (calls, emails, letters) but they are SHORT. I figured out more contact is better because she is less frantic for attention than with one long phone call here and there. When I tried reducing contact in the past and she lived closer, she would just SHOW UP unannounced. It was awful. Like you, I don't share much personal info anymore, about me or anyone else. I keep it BIFFy (brief, informative, factual and friendly). I have practiced covert boundaries so she doesn't feel threatened--if she veers off into a topic I don't want to follow (like gossip, being nosey about me/brother, some awful story about gore and murder), I change the subject like a ninja or have some fake emergency lined up (oh gotta go, cat is throwing up, oh no! pot bubbling over on the stove. I just stepped on a pin! Neighbor is at the door, looks angry... .). My mother must think I am the most accident prone person on the planet but if it gets me off the phone! I also send more pictures of random innocuous things (clouds, flowers in yard, sunset) rather than full on email (Sunset today! Have a great night).  A friend introduced me to bullsh*tbingo.net (take the * out when using the link  for those long rambling phone calls where I am forced to listen. It turns it into a game--my bro and I crack up comparing who got bingo at what minute of the phone call. I'm glad you have some compassion for your mother. Like mine, she is sad. She is lonely. She is damaged. But she does not get to prevent you from living a happy, full life, free from hour long awful phone calls. I wish I didn't have a superficial relationship with my mom. But I can't have anything more. It's nicer this way and our relationship seems better.

[Singingdove]

Turkish,

Yes, Thanksgiving in the U.S.  Only in the past several years did I learn about BPD.  Up till then, my sister and I suspected her of having NPD.  I've since learned that they can have aspects of both but she's more in line with the diagnostic criteria of BPD.  Once I learned about BPD, it explained a LOT of her bizarre behaviors that I experienced as a child.

What caused this upset this time was the fact that when she did the "poor me" behavior in saying she's lonely (she knew I was going out to my inlaws) and I said, "Well, if you lived closer I'd invite you along" (even though deep down I was thinking that I would do it but it would be extremely stressful and I'm actually glad that she lives out of state).  I then offered her things I would do if I were alone on a holiday (which I was for many years as I didn't get married until I was 40).  Then it blew up into things like "you don't understand", "if you lost your husband you'd feel like I would".  I just got tired of always calling and then having a non-conversation while she drags on about how she "triumphed" over this poor person or that.  So, when she decided to go down the path about how lonely she is, I chose to address it.

[Singingdove]

Busybee116,

Thanks for the suggestions and things that you do.  When you mentioned that you limit communication and that they are SHORT, my emails tend to be that way, too, but hers on the other hand are anything but.  She can go on and on about her day (because she's extremely lonely) and send me two or three of these.  Sometimes I respond if she's asked a question and sometimes don't.  Either way, I answer with very short emails.  Unfortunately, this is part of her complaint that we don't share because I don't go into the same length as she does. 

I had to laugh because when you mentioned that when you lived closer and you cut back on communication she would just show up, I could totally see mine doing that, too.

The idea of BIFFy is a good one.  Although, frankly, I'm not feeling much of the "friendly" right now.  Can you tell me more about the "informative" part?  If you don't share much personal, what do you share that would be "informative"? 

I guess a bit of my frustration comes from feeling like why do I need to have to "redirect" and do the covert boundaries thing?  I know that one of my things that I'm at the point of not putting up with anymore is disrespect and jabs about my dad who died 12 years ago.  Heck, they got divorced 40 years ago and she still feels the need to tell me what an evil man he was.  Even though I know it will piss her off, I think I need to truly tell her that I'm not open to her even mentioning him any longer if she can't say something nice.  For so many years, I have avoided doing that but I'm finding that by doing some of the covert things you mentioned, but I'm just getting more and more distant and frustrated by not standing up.

I checked out the bullsh*tbingo.net. I'm guessing you and your brother come up with a card that has things that are unique to your interactions with your mom?  I might have to consider it although my sister is at the point that she doesn't care if she talks to her at all.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  Hearing all that you do and seeing that there are others out there that "get it" is comforting.

[Singingdove]

Kwamina,

Thanks for the "welcome".  I appreciate the links and plan on reading those things to see if I can have some more enlightenment on my own reactions and behaviors.

If I'm honest with myself, yes, I feel some obligation/fear/guilt in being compelled to continue trying to communicate.  I also struggle with the "honoring mother and father" although last night found a great article about what it truly means to "honor" and that you can't really "honor" and enemy, which in many ways she is because she doesn't truly love.

Do you perhaps feel compelled to spend time with her out of fear, obligation and/or guilt? Do you feel like these things characterize (some of) the relationship dynamics between you and your mother?

As far as whether my mom has ever had any diagnosis, I am not aware of any.  I'm sure that she sought out some counseling through either counselors or pastors but with her way of interacting, I'm sure it got to the point where it was uncomfortable and then the defenses came up and in her minds eye they were all idiots or don't know what they are saying.  Plus, when she would have sought help, I'm not so certain there was much awareness of BPD.  I remember "changing" churches several times when younger and now understand that was probably when she got "pissed" off at someone either calling her bluff or setting some boundaries.

Again, thanks for all the suggestion of articles.  I plan on reading them!

[Turkish]

I like the spin on BIFF. It can be Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm.

I imagine,

"Hi mom,

Thanks for the message. It sounds like you have had an interesting week with the things and all. I did xyz. Anyway, I'll be off line until the weekend,.so if you send a reply, I'll see it then."

And if she replies right away, don't answer until when you said. It may take a while to reinforce your boundary, but with consistency, she will eventually get it. Breaking out of patterns can be hard.

[dealingwithit]

Boy, do I get this. My mom is an undiagnosed BPD but she is super controlling and critical. I had to put so many boundaries in that we rarely speak even though we live in the same town. She was here at Thanksgiving and I had to go in the backyard to get away from her a couple of times because she was blaming and accusing me for things I had no control over. I wish I could keep certain things from her but my sisters like to repeat things. I think they still want approval from her. Me, not so much.

[busybee1116]

Singingdove--I think of friendly in BIFF as positive/upbeat or at least not negative. My mother LOVES to complain and go over negatives in her letters/phone calls, so I go positive. I HATE that I have to manage my mother. The covert boundaries, the ninja topic changing. But you know, I think she has figured out that if she goes off onto those topics, the call ends quickly... .so over time, she has changed. She also writes long, rambling emails. I tend to skim. No point reading the whole thing because it's useless info for the most part, has jabs or repeats stuff I already know. Thankfully she doesn't complain that I don't write long ones back. 

So for example of BIFF... .if she asked about my husband (which is an off limits topic generally, our relationship)

Hi Mom,

Thanks for asking about H! He says hello,  by the way. He's doing well. Work is busy, as you can imagine. The holidays are coming and that means lots of end of year wrap ups and meetings. He's looking forward to January 1 when work will hopefully slow down a little. 

It's Sunday--I got some errands [nothing specific! she loves to pick apart grocery shopping, specific stores, order I went in] done and have work to prep before tomorrow. I hope you had a great weekend and that it wasn't too cold.

blah blah blah. Insert picture. She also responds to emoticons very favorably. I don't know if that's unique to BPD or just my mom, but I sprinkle them all over now.  Exclamation points too.

See? Brief. Some info (that's the informative part--info/facts rather than your opinion about something). Nothing personal and based on facts (he is busy, it is end of the year, he has lots to do), and no negatives (like complaining about his long hours or had a fight with his boss or stupid long line I got stuck in at store or whatever might really be going on). 

Your mom sounds like an attention seeking waif. She wants to be acknowledged/validated. Like a kid at the playground--watch me! look at me! watch me jump! daughter! son! watch me jump! Why don't you love me enough to write long letters too? Sometimes, I have to write a supportive note back. As an example... .

Hi Mom,

Thanks for your email! I appreciate the time it took for you to craft a long letter to me [this is true. how on earth you find the time to write such a long letter, I will never know.]. I read every line [ok, this may  be fib]!   My crazy life [AND THE BOUNDARIES I NEED!] keeps me from writing long letters back to you, but know I do get your notes and think about you often [also true, sometimes I think you are crazy. but you are thought of].   

SET is a good tool to use (there are workshops for it on this site) but I like EAR for setting boundaries, improving communication, handling the jabs.

EAR is empathy (try to see their point or imagine being in her shoes, empathize/deescalate, find a kernel of truth no matter how crazy her statements seem--AND MEAN IT), assertiveness (my point or what I need, I feel--about you, not them) and respect (can we find a mutual agreement?). I shorten it to YOU language, I language and US language.

For example:

"I will always be your mother!"

E True, you will always be my mother.

A However, I am now an adult and need to make my own decisions and choices.

R Since I can't make it for Thanksgiving, can we find another day to meet that works for both of us? I'd still like to see you.

"Your emails are too short!"

E My emails are short. I wonder if that makes you feel like I don't care.

A I do care, I just don't have the time to write as long a letter as you might like. I need you to understand that I do still care about you, even if I don't write long notes.

R Let's keep writing to each other, but not worry about how long the letters are. I like to hear from you [it's better than you showing up unannounced!] and I will write as often as I can.

"You don't understand."

E. You're right, I don't know what it's like to lose a husband.

A. It upsets me though, that you seem to remember him as a good man when he really wasn't.

R. Can we agree not to talk about my father anymore? It just upsets both of us.

Anyway, hope that was helpful. It is nice to know I'm not alone. Carry on fellow warrior! I have had to figure out that managing her is a way of picking my battles... .it's just hard.

 

[ViaCrusis1689]

I found this site after a frustrating conversation (yet again) with my mom.  I'm 48 and have known for all my life that she has "issues".  In recent years, it's gotten to the point that I only talk with her on her birthday or holidays.  She always complains how lonely she is but if I try to give her some suggestions for how to alleviate it, it ends up being an argument.  I, once again, had to hang up on her (it sucks to have to hang up on your own mom) because she was yelling.  My sister has already gotten to the point that she won't call her at all because it always seems to transpire into an argument. 

Our parents were divorced when I was 8 and my sister 14 and my mom made it hell.  Even though my dad has been dead for 12 years now, she still has to get her "jabs" in.  In fact, I found out that when I got married 7 years ago, that she "cried" to my sister's mother-in-law about dad (from whom she had been divorced since about 1976).  She complains that we don't share with her but when we do try to "converse", it ends up her trying to "win".  We quit sharing intimate details because she uses them against us or oversteps her boundaries and starts trying to find all the info she can on either the person we mention or some other such thing.  Sometimes I can just let her go on and on and pretty much have a "conversation" where she does all the talking and I just listen - even though I'm frustrated beyond belief to sit for 20 minutes and listen to her gab on and on about how she "won" out over such and such a person that she beat out of parking spot or some such dumb thing.  Other times, like on Thanksgiving, I just couldn't put up with her complaining and chose to make a simple suggestion, and she "went" off trying to turn it as though I'm the one with the problem.

I'm quite conflicted.  I'm trying to be a mature daughter and accept the fact that my mom has something severely wrong but don't know if I'm doing more harm than good to let her just gab on about how she "succeeded" over another or call her on her poor behavior and deal with the fallout.  I truly feel bad for her.  She's completely miserable and alone.  At the same time, I'm tired of feeling guilty and dread any time I feel compelled to spend with her when we're in town (she lives out of state).  In fact, I'm tired of the digestive issues I struggle with when I'm in her presence.

Any suggestions or thoughts from those of you out there who have similar experiences?

Thanks!

Welcome !

I can definitely relate to what you are saying. My mom is like this, not as much with me, but with my dad. Most of their interactions are her berating him for the smallest things, and she treats him like crap. And they're still married, which boggles my mind as neither can stand each other. Oh, and I live with them because of my disability and the lack of resources in my area. So I see it on a daily basis.

My saving grace is her working, so at least part of most days are peaceful and I can spend a lot of time in my room if need be. I tend to avoid topics and conversations that may lead to an argument. I've become very good at this and at reading her moods. Of course, a hallmark of BPD is the unpredictability, which is probably the hardest aspect, as you can be doing everything to keep things neutral, but it still can blow up in your face.

I can also relate to the conflicted feelings of feeling that you need to be the mature daughter. I find that I am constantly trying to accept the fact she will never change and I need to stop trying so hard to make things "right." I can't, but I still want to. It seems like a never-ending internal battle, but I think over time it does lessen as I learn to put my emotional needs first.

I wish you well!

[Singingdove]

Busybee,

THANKS so much for your very detailed email.  I think I will print it out and "study" it.  I have to laugh because when you put stuff in the brackets - your actual thought process - I would pretty much be thinking the same things.

My mom sounds very much like yours in the whole complaint and negative department.  She LOVES to tell me how she won out over another person, how that person treated her badly (although I know she's the one who treated them badly first), etc.  I get tired of the negativity, also.  Yes, I have to skim.  It's just so refreshing to hear of someone else that does what I do as it makes me feel less alone even though my sister and I can commiserate together. 

I also appreciated the info on EAR and especially that you gave me some scenarios and how it would sound. 

Again, thanks for taking the time to share this lengthy and informative post so I can start to grab ahold of how this looks.

[Singingdove]

ViaCrusis1689,

Wow!  Sorry to hear that you still have to live in the midst of this chaos.  I pray that you receive an extra blessing because you have to continue to live there!

Yes, the unpredictability is very hard.  It was a good reminder when you said, "... .as you can be doing everything to keep things neutral, but it still can blow up in your face."  I forget that this is part of it.  After a blow up, I spend a lot of time analyzing what went wrong and how I maybe should have worded something differently.  From what people are saying on here and in my readings, I'm realizing it wouldn't matter how I said something, she's still going to "go off".  I just need to remind myself of this over and over until I "get it".

I can relate to the "internal battle" and you hit it on the nail that it seems like a never-ending battle.

Thanks again for your words of encouragement through your sharing.

I wish you well, too!

[busybee1116]

Oh, my pleasure. I loved realizing--it's not just me! Look! Someone else also has a crazy mother! I hope the examples are helpful. TG I have a brother who gets it. He does like to rehash more than I probably need/want. That's how the bingo card came to be--we try to have a sense of humor about it. I think if I was much healthier? I don't know if that is the right word, but all I can think of, I would go NC. But there are other relationships at stake that I don't want to lose. And my mom occasional has good moments. I'm navigating. No right answer.

PS yes, did make our own bingo card for our parents. The boxes include "tell a long story about someone I don't know," "name dropping" "story about something awful" "complaint about the other" "racist comment" etc. Whee!

[Singingdove]

Once again, I'm entertained by your sharing and it's good to have a smile/laugh when it comes to this frustrating situation.  Yes, it's really helping to see that my sister and I aren't the only ones.  I like the categories.  I think I might be able to incorporate some of your categories as they seem to be similar to our mom.  My sister and I go back and forth as to who is rehashing things, so I think it might be fun for us to create a game so our conversations don't always have to be so intense. BTW, just picked up a book at the library called "Stop Walking on Eggshells" that I'm hoping will give me some insights and techniques.

I don't know if that is the right word, but all I can think of, I would go NC.

I may sound silly but I figured out what "TG" was but can't figure out "NC".

[busybee1116]

NC= no contact

TG= thank God/goodness 

SWOE book changed my life. Not everything applied, but eye opening and very validating.

Keep laughing

[busybee1116]

Our bingo card--some things are inside jokes or unique to my parents, but gives you an idea. Shoes are a very sore subject for my mother! And directions! Sheesh.

www.tinyurl.com/zye6euz

[Singingdove]

Busybee,

I've not been on here for a while because as a singer, the Christmas season is a busy time.  

Thanks for posting the Bingo card.

Hopefully you made it through the holidays without too much of a problem with the BP in your life.

Singingdove

Our bingo card--some things are inside jokes or unique to my parents, but gives you an idea. Shoes are a very sore subject for my mother! And directions! Sheesh.

www.tinyurl.com/zye6euz

[busybee1116]

Hi Singingdove! Thanks for your note. How wonderful that you were able to share your voice this holiday season! My uBPD mother is up to her usual shenanigans (surprise, my Christmas present still hasn't arrived), but I'm doing ok, that's who she is. Nice to be in this mental space. Much peace (and some rest!) to you in the New Year!