After 33.5 years, I'm finally doing something.

[formflier]

But tonight when he sat down to pay bills, I was involved.  He didn't like it.  There was a lot of anger under the surface on his part which I ignored. 

Just a thought.

Is the finances or the r/s more important?

I'm wondering if when anger becomes apparent, if there is a way to ask him about it directly. 

What are you feeling right now?  And be ready to validate.  Also be ready for a ramp up and for you to need to disengage.

I'm still getting to know your story, so if you have been down this road and it didn't work, let me know. 

On the on hand, you (the non) need to demonstrate good healthy r/s behavior, even when he is not.  If he is angry, you have a part to play in "dealing with that".  Although you are a wife and not a T.  So, listen, validate, see if you can find a place of empathy to be with him for a short while, then excuse yourself.

Figuring out if you should pivot the conversation to solutions is a bit of another matter.  Likely it is best to express your emotional support and confidence in him that he will find a solution and let him solve it himself.

FF

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

Verbena, the story I think in getting with you is that your marriage has had no emotional or physical intimacy for decades, and that any efforts you make are rebuffed, and that your husband makes no efforts. And very clearly and insistently he states that he has no issues of his own to deal with.

First off, please confirm that I'm correct.

Second, if so... .is this something you can accept as is, or something that you need to change?

(Sometimes standing up for your own values and needs feels so right that you may want more of it!)

[Verbena]

FF, the relationship is more important.  However, there is no relationship.  I have needed to educate myself better on our finances for a very long time.  Even if we had a perfect marriage, I would still need to know more about our money. 

I am struggling to remember a time when I asked him directly about his anger when one of the following didn't happen:

*he angrily told me that he wasn't angry

*he ignored me

*he walked away

I can't think of even one time at least one of those, or a combination, didn't happen. There is little to validate if he won't discuss anything with me. 

Grey Kitty, you're close.  WE have not been physically intimate in about five years.  The rest of your take on the situation is very accurate. 

I cannot imagine accepting this kind of marriage for the rest of my life.  I am praying for an answer because I have none.  I left our church because of the facade I felt we were presenting there, so I've taken that step. 

Years ago, I stopped allowing his behavior to determine my happiness. Sure, his behavior makes me unhappy, but my happiness does not come from him; it comes from my faith and from my family, friends, and interests. 

One of the issues that I was in denial about for a very long time is his jealousy.   After I retired from teaching in 2012, I was able to focus a lot more on my decorating/design business.  The more business that I've gotten, the more praise from others that I've received... .the more negative he has become about it.  I just never wanted to admit that my husband would jealous of my talents and abilities, but he is. 

We live in a town that has quickly become a tourist destination due to the popularity of a television show.  There is a decor store here that was very popular before the tv show and is even more so now.  This past weekend, I was asked by the owner of this store to be a vendor there. I was so excited about this opportunity that I shared it with my husband.  His reaction was the usual--instantly negative, nothing good to say about it.  He did not congratulate me on this opportunity or tell me he believed I could do this.  He does not compliment me EVER on any design work I do.  IF others show me praise or encouragement, he gets very uncomfortable. 

I just think it's sad that he cannot be proud of me for anything I do.  If I praise him for anything (how hard he works, etc.), he is also very uncomfortable. 

[Grey Kitty]

Grey Kitty, you're close.  WE have not been physically intimate in about five years.  The rest of your take on the situation is very accurate. 

I cannot imagine accepting this kind of marriage for the rest of my life.  I am praying for an answer because I have none.  I left our church because of the facade I felt we were presenting there, so I've taken that step. 

 That is a very stark picture of a relationship or of a life, and not one with a lot of hope for improvement.

I sure cannot give you answers. Those are for you to find.

I could ask you a few more questions to help you sort through it. However I'm afraid that they would be at best marginal in light of the guidelines here on the "Improving" board, and better suited to the ":)eciding or Conflicted" board instead.

[formflier]

 

Do you ask him about his anger or do you ask him how or what he is feeling?

That was only thing that jumped out at me from a previous post.

Best to leave the slate blank and let them fill in that blank about their emotion.

FF

[Notwendy]

Good for you for progressing in your career, developing your talents, taking steps to get counseling and be more authentic and break the facade at your old church.

IMHO, your H sounds like a very insecure person. You know that you can not fix this for him, and in fact, focusing on trying to do that is what had drained your emotional energy. Good for you to be channeling that into things that bring you joy.

Sadly, for him, he can not give you any acknowledgement for your accomplishments, because to do so is so triggering to his fears - "if others praise her she will leave me, or her accomplishments make me feel less accomplished" or something like that. The problem is if he brings you to feel down, then there are two people down, and that does no good to you or the relationship. If there is hope, then that hope comes from doing what you are doing.

When one person makes significant changes, the relationship dynamics change. No doubt he is feeling the changes. However, he may not know what to do at the moment. He may gravitate towards you, or not, you don't know. As to attending the new church with you- if his pattern is to react negatively at first, and to be insecure, then the most likely thing he would do is to refuse to change churches. However, if you leave him be, and don't get into it with " him, then he may or may not like going to church on his own. He may change his mind. I would not expect anything, but let go and see what happens.

The two of you have been in a pattern of some sorts for years. Change involves risks, but without change, the pattern is likely to not change. You have taken some big steps, which opens the door to different possibilities, and since they involve being true to yourself, they are good ones.

[Verbena]

As to attending the new church with you- if his pattern is to react negatively at first, and to be insecure, then the most likely thing he would do is to refuse to change churches. However, if you leave him be, and don't get into it with " him, then he may or may not like going to church on his own. He may change his mind. I would not expect anything, but let go and see what happens.


I guess I wasn't clear on this.  My goal was never that he follow me to another church.  I left our church that we went to together because I did not want to worship in the same place given how I felt that our marriage was a facade to our church family.  It was interfering with my ability to worship.  It was a huge burden on me.  If he wanted to go where I am now going, he could.  But I am not going to fake it at this new place. 

Notwendy, I appreciate your thoughtful response.  Yes, he is very insecure.  I think I've always known this, but his anger and other behaviors have overshadowed that. 

I feel like I am getting to the place where I am focusing more on my choices and my talking to God about this than I am his behaviors. 

[Notwendy]

Oh I get it now. I thought you were wondering why he still wanted to go to the church you left, but now I realize it was because it is now known that you aren't the couple people assumed you were, not because you wanted him to go with you. I really get that. I think it is important to be in a peaceful state in prayer and that you want your peace. Feeling you are putting on a front would interfere with that.

I think his need for denial is strong. He may also feel he has a support system there and want to attend for that as well.

I think it is great that you are taking steps to take care of you!

[Verbena]

Thank you, notwendy!  Are you a therapist in real life?  

I am struggling with asking him again if he will go to counseling (he flat refused when I asked him two weeks ago) or just waiting to see how this goes. 

My 30-year old daughter, who has BPD but is doing very well now, is completely astounded that something as serious as me changing churches and going to therapy has produced no reaction in her father.  She also doesn't understand why he won't go to counseling with me.  I have no answers for her except to say that she isn't going to be able to make sense of it. 

[Notwendy]

Nope, not a therapist, but I have tried to make some sense out of my FOO -raised by BPD mom and also the relationship issues in my marriage. Co-dependency seemed a normal way of life. Self-care was one of the lessons I learned.

I also learned to not put a lot of thought into what seems like paradoxical reactions. If you consider that pw BPD have a hard time managing their feelings, they can react in ways that seem odd, but don't reflect what they are feeling. One way they can react to perceived abandonment is to act as if they don't care or nothing happened. Another is to act as if it is their idea or to be rejecting as a defense to not being rejected.

I don't know what your H is feeling- he may not even know, but that isn't your responsibility. You didn't do anything wrong by taking care of your emotional and spiritual well being. In fact, by not stepping in to try to "fix" your H's feelings, you are giving him the space to deal with them himself in whatever way he can. This could be his way, and so not getting into it with him- not making him wrong because he acted this way- you are letting him take care of it. If you did get into the way he is managing, it would be stepping into his business.

So, no, I am not a therapist, but I watched my mother do this growing up. Although our marriages are different in some ways, there is some overlap in the sense that my H and I don't share a lot of common social or personal interests. I don't think he likes it, but on the other hand, it takes much effort to plan to do something together in a social setting. He is fine with just the two of us. So, with the encouragement of a counselor, I have also made steps to build my own interests and friends, and to just do things on my own. Like you, this isn't a first choice for me, I wish it were different, but it is the way it is. However, if I do something new, or different, his response is often indifference- I think it is an emotional defense- to not allow others to think they can bother them. While I would hope for encouragement- " yes, that activity would be good for you" I get t " well then just GO to your meeting".

[Notwendy]

This is my personal ideas about this kind of behavior, but it seems like a spiritual short sightedness. - and bear with me on this one as it could relate to religion, but not at all, and any religion. I think we all have some fixed resources- money, material things, but to do something like encourage someone isn't limited. I sometimes wonder if they think that by giving someone approval, encouragement, recognition, it somehow takes something away from them, but it doesn't.

A person could be very ethical, hardworking, do the right thing, pay bills- all these are good and admirable acts, but still, not be able to say " that's great honey that your career is doing well".

Because in a way, when we give that, the reward is to us- we feel good, but I wonder if that is something that someone with inner pain is not able to feel. One example of material giving is the Angel Trees at Christmas. These are trees decorated with pieces of paper with a child's wish on them- children from families who have little income.

On the paper might be a wish for a toy, a pair of shoes. You are given the child's wishes, age, size, but nothing else. You will never know who the child is, or see them open the present. So, then you may spend a modest amount of money picking out something for the child, wrapping it, and donating is. The "return" you get in happiness doing it is all within you but it is worth more than the money spent. In a way, we don't even need the child for us to feel this, just our thinking about the child being happy with the gift generates good feelings.

People like it because it makes them happy doing it, and it helps someone. There is a personal return for helping, or being nice, without any tangible reward. I wonder if someone with BPD can not feel this "return" in themselves- after all, it is something we generate in ourselves- not done by anyone else- so to them, it feels like a loss?

There have been threads where people mention their BPD spouse forgot a birthday, or Valentine's Day gift, and again, the pleasure in the gift is the self generated feeling of giving. Maybe they didn't forget because they are mean or uncaring, but if someone doesn't generate this feeling for themselves, then maybe they don't think about it as much? This doesn't mean we accept being treated poorly but it could explain this.

Maybe your H finds it hard to give you approval or encouragement because, inside, he is not able to feel the good feeling from this. If he feels bad about himself, then he feels bad feelings?

[Verbena]

Maybe your H finds it hard to give you approval or encouragement because, inside, he is not able to feel the good feeling from this. If he feels bad about himself, then he feels bad feelings

You're probably exactly right, notwendy.  

When I found out that we were having a grandbaby, I spent months working on a room for him in our house.  The night that my H helped me move in the furniture and hang stuff on the walls was probably the worst he's ever behaved during an installation.  (He has helped me with installations for clients for years.)  

He was incredibly angry the entire time, rude to me, and full of negative comments about everything I had done for the room. Afterward, when he was calmer I told him I was really proud of the room, thanked him for helping me with it, and said that it would have meant a lot to me for him to compliment me on all my efforts.  I told him that I was the kind of person who liked to get compliments.  

His response?  "Well, I'm not. And I already told you you did a good job on it."

He has never told me I did a good job on ANY design, ever.  

So, yes, he doesn't get a good feeling from giving compliments the way many people might.  As far as him actually believing he complimented me when he did the opposite?  I really wonder if he believes that.  

[formflier]

 As far as him actually believing he complimented me when he did the opposite?  I really wonder if he believes that.  

This is still the "maddening" part of this disorder.



Early on in my wife's long term dysregulation  (if that is what it is) she actually apologized to me for "being loud". 

1.  I was shocked at any kind of apology

2.  Was shocked she attempted an apology via text vice in person

Since I was still not totally back on "my game" I said something to her about the "effe bombs" that she dropped and she honestly (not dysregulated) says she did not use effe bommbs.

I knew enough not to argue with her.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

People like it because it makes them happy doing it, and it helps someone. There is a personal return for helping, or being nice, without any tangible reward. I wonder if someone with BPD can not feel this "return" in themselves- after all, it is something we generate in ourselves- not done by anyone else- so to them, it feels like a loss?

There have been threads where people mention their BPD spouse forgot a birthday, or Valentine's Day gift, and again, the pleasure in the gift is the self generated feeling of giving. Maybe they didn't forget because they are mean or uncaring, but if someone doesn't generate this feeling for themselves, then maybe they don't think about it as much? This doesn't mean we accept being treated poorly but it could explain this.

Maybe your H finds it hard to give you approval or encouragement because, inside, he is not able to feel the good feeling from this. If he feels bad about himself, then he feels bad feelings?

This is very insightful, Notwendy. Hopefully without hijacking this thread, I want to add a bit to this thought.

My husband frequently does something nice for acquaintances and strangers, yet it's like pulling teeth for him to copy a short video for me (after 7 requests)--while he'll make dozens of CDs for a guy who does a local radio show. I realize it's his way to try to ingratiate himself and get people to think he's a nice guy.

However all this giving doesn't come without strings. He frequently complains that "people don't appreciate me."

I think you're absolutely right, Notwendy, that this "giving" feels like a loss, particularly if it's not reciprocated in kind. With me, he expects so much verbal appreciation and acknowledgment for any little thing he does which contributes to our lives. And I give that to him, yet he'll often feel as though I haven't said anything at all, so I find myself thanking him several times for the same event or thing.

Yet, in my case, he has no awareness of thanking me for things that I do which only benefit him.

[Verbena]

  As far as him actually believing he complimented me when he did the opposite?  I really wonder if he believes that. 

This is still the "maddening" part of this disorder.



Early on in my wife's long term dysregulation  (if that is what it is) she actually apologized to me for "being loud". 

1.  I was shocked at any kind of apology

2.  Was shocked she attempted an apology via text vice in person

Since I was still not totally back on "my game" I said something to her about the "effe bombs" that she dropped and she honestly (not dysregulated) says she did not use effe bommbs.

I knew enough not to argue with her.

FF

This is what I don't understand at all.  Does your wife, FF, actually know she is lying when she says this?  If all eight kids said, "Mom, you know you have a filthy mouth and say the F-word around us all the time" what would she say?  If you produced a recording of her spewing the F-word, what would she say? 

If if I made a video of me asking my husband something, him completely ignoring me, and then him telling me seconds later that he DID answer me and even exactly the words he used, would he then know that he was lying?

[formflier]

 

My experience with recordings is do not use them to confront.

They will claim the recording is faked without batting an eye and then accuse you of breaking their trust. 

It happens amazingly fast.

Very much like when I had a paternity test set up to prove I did not have a love child.  As soon as her paranoia knew it was about to be caught, without blinking or hesitating she said  "So, it's not your child but you still had sex with her, " (her being the momma of my "baby"

I mean, there's not much you can do with that, so don't go there.

FF

[formflier]

My guess is that my wifes feelings overwhelm her to the point where she does NOT think she is lying and believes what she is saying.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think confronting with evidence is felt as quite threatening. I have seem my mother dissociate in this situation to the point where, in the moment, she is reacting as if attacked. I think it feels as if they will say anything to stop it. I don't think they consider this lying- in the sense of doing something wrong any more than we might do something in self defense that we would not consider the right thing in a non-threatening situation.

I try to look at the big picture. If someone thinks in black and white terms that they are basically good people- they pay taxes, don't tell big lies, don't steal, then lying isn't something they think they do. In actuality, most of us tell while lies " does this make my butt look big" the answer to that is NO! no matter what the truth is but if we are honest, we don't lie in general. I think they see this the same way.

I can trust my mother in most aspects. I know that she won't steal from me. She wouldn't tell a big lie. She obeys the law, gives to charity. But you bet, given the chance she would snoop all over the house and not admit to it. Still, she is basically ethical so it is odd. I think this is why the lies surprise us as it is inconsistent.

[formflier]

I think confronting with evidence is felt as quite threatening. I have seem my mother dissociate in this situation to the point where, in the moment, she is reacting as if attacked. 

I have seen this in my wife.  When I learned about SWOE book and BPD for the first time was during a MC session.  My wife made an allegation that I was hogging all the speaking time.  MC corrected her and back it up by saying that MC had a watch and was keeping track of equal time.

Wife went nuclear, hopped and danced around room, flung open door, wagged her finger at us and said some things and that she would never come back.

Well, I stayed and MC told me about BPD.  First I had ever heard of it.

FF

[empath]

I remember one of the times when I gave my h evidence of what I had said to be true because he had asked for it. He started the 'silent treatment', and then there was a greater dysregulation. It turned really bad.

We had one of those weird conversations a couple of days ago where he started getting upset about some things that he had thought that I had said. He came back at me with "aha, I knew that you thought that... ." while I was trying to figure out what he was talking about.

My husband doesn't encourage me in my attendance at a different church either, but his actions are the reason that I need to make a different choice for myself. That makes him feel bad, along with the fact that other people know that I'm not at church with him. So, often he withdraws after church.

[Verbena]

Last Thursday night, I asked my husband again if he would go with me to counseling.  He said no. 

WE talked for three hours and afterward I felt that my eyes were truly opened.  I told him that I was not willing to continue living for the rest of my life in this miserable marriage.  I mentioned divorce more than once as being inevitable if we could not change our marriage.  He completely ignored these comments. 

During our long conversaton, the topic of "the letter" came up.  He wrote this letter to me several years ago.  It was VERY long (at least ten pages) and typed.  He is an incredibly slow typist so it had to have taken him ages to finish.  He drove it to my school (this was before I retired) and put it on the steering wheel of my car. 

About 18 months ago, I brought up this letter and he said he did not write it.  No memory of it, had no idea what I was talking about, wouldn't discuss something he knew nothing about.  Most of this letter that he says he didn't write was blaming me for our problems.  No accountability whatsoever for his part in anything. 

Anyway, on Thursday night the letter came up again.  I acknowledged that he said he never wrote it only to have him turn the tables.   He said he did write the letter and that he never denied writing it in any way, shape, or form. 

He also says that he has a clear memory now of some really awful things I said to him about our physical relationship (which we haven't had in five years) and he is positive of the exact words I used. 

My H admits that he has no memory for times or details, cannot think of any examples of situations where I have mistreated him, but he knows that I have.  But suddenly, he remembers these awful things I said five years ago.  There is zero truth in what he is claiming.  I did not, and would not, ever say to him what he claims that I did. It did not happen. 

My H saw our conversation as me "coming at him" with incidents of his behavior, behavior that he claims never happened and for which he is not accountable.  I told him I could understand how he would feel attacked, but that I couldn't discuss WHY I feel the way I do without explaining the specific behavior over three decades that has brought me to this point. 

He doesn't get that.  He claims that I don't treat him right and that his behavior (because it never happened) has nothing to do with mine. It's just me trying to pin it all on him.  I admitted to many of my faults during this talk we had.  He admitted to a few minor things and finally made the blanket statement, "I'm sorry if anything I ever did made you feel this way."  Yet, he doesn't remember or even know what I'm talking about for the most part. 

I really felt that I was looking directly into his disordered thinking. 

And here is the strangest turn of events.  He is acting like a completely different person.  Pleasant, helpful, not boiling over with anger all the time, not negative at all. 

Any ideas on what is going on here?

[formflier]

Any ideas on what is going on here?

Just a guess, but bottled up stuff has come out and he feels less pressure, so is better.

I would suggest you set up counseling and let him know you are going to improve your marriage.  Don't threaten, just inform.

Have you ever done counseling together?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

And here is the strangest turn of events.  He is acting like a completely different person.  Pleasant, helpful, not boiling over with anger all the time, not negative at all.  

Any ideas on what is going on here?

Very interesting. One of my favorite sayings around here is "Nothing changes without changes."

You decided to change the status quo. The church move was a change. Telling him that you are not willing to live your life in this miserable marriage is a change. (I would note that those both sound like healthy changes to me.)

He appears to be shifting in response to your changes. How much and which direction, and where he stops is up to him.

What more comes of it remains to be seen. Some pwBPD are relatively self-aware of their own behavior and express regret (and usually self-hatred along with it) for it later. You don't describe this as anything your H did before, and he didn't do much of it here either.

I do have one bit of advice for you--shift your focus away from getting him into counseling with you. It may not help even if he does agree.

Instead focus on what behavior you want from him, what you need from him. Not just what you want him to stop doing, but also what you would like him to actively do. You may not even feel up to asking for these things, but perhaps you will at some point. Start by thinking about what they are. If he gets to a point of saying "I want to do X for you, but cannot figure out how." you might direct him toward some sort of therapy as a way to get there.

Meanwhile... .have you considered individual T for yourself?

[Verbena]

We've never been in counseling together.  He is not going to tolerate me telling a counselor in his presence about his behavior for over three decades, and he is not going to risk his disordered thinking being exposed. 

He just isn't going to do it, any more than he is going to ever be accountable to me for his behavior.  So, I am not asking him anymore to go with me.  He has zero self-awareness and no counselor will make him realize anything about himself that he doesn't want to believe.  I plan on going again myself this week. 

The real questions now are... .

Can I ever feel anything for him as I used to?  Has his behavior ruined all that for me?  Can he maintain this 180-degree shift in his demeanor?

Time will tell.  I am just asking God to guide me one day at a time.  I will say that I feel a huge relief since Thursday night when my H and I talked.  I see clearly what I am dealing with and know more than ever before that I cannot change this on my own.   

[letmeout]

Hello Verbena, you have pretty much described my ex. For 35 years I dealt with the same experiences. I always thought he was just BPD, but it turns out he was also a narcissist and misogynist. It is a very complicated situation when they have a mix of co-morbid disorders and are able to hide some so well.

It was when I really started trying to make things better that my ex pretended to go along, all the while stabbing me in the back, secretly stealing and hiding our monetary assets and waging a smear campaign to sway people that he wasn't the problem; he projected it all onto me. These things can and do happen with disordered individuals.

I just don't ever want to see this happen to anyone else, so please protect yourself!

What really stood out was the extreme jealousy he exhibited of my talents. 

[formflier]

We've never been in counseling together. 

Have you ever done a Bible study together?  Gotten together in a small group to discuss it?

The talk you had is great.  Somehow, a habit of communication needs to be formed that is somewhat non-threatening.

So, get together with a pastor to discuss a book in the Bible or a book.  Boundaries would be a great book to work through.

FF

[sweetheart]

The thread has reached it's maximum and is being locked.

Thank you to all who contributed it has generated insightful understanding and compassion around many of aspects of how to continue to improve relationships in all stages of being together.



sweetheart