Friend Relationship was escalating then gone cold

[Pablo333]

I know this isn't a forum for dating advice but i wanted to post to get some knowledge on how to handle about getting the cold side of BPD and how i should handle it.

So first my story,

I've been talking to this girl who has been diagnosed with BPD for about two years now, we're both in our late twenties.

At first she was going through some tough times and an inevitable break up with her ex, and i was going through healing from the ending of my 6 year relationship which had just happened prior.

We live far away from each other so we mainly just use facebook to talk with the odd chat program mixed in, over the last two years we have sent maybe 70000 messages between each other which shocked me when i read that but i just wanted to say that its not something quick its been a progressive build up between us. She has shared a lot with me over this time and me with her, i feel she trusts me at least as much as a BPD can, I will visit her in 2 months time as well after i finish my work business trip.

So a little longer than a month or so things have speed up with our flirting and escalating alot faster than before, to where we were talking about sex and all that stuff. Now i don't think i crossed the line or anything but since a conversation she has made a massive change and is barely talking to me, in the two years we've spoken she hasn't done this to me before or maybe i didn't care that much and didn't notice im not sure.

Her messages have become short and she has barely logged in let alone to talk to me,I've tried to educate myself on BPD in the last few weeks and now I'm hoping i can get some advice on how a man who likes a women with BPD should handle when they go cold on you?

My natural reaction is to try and fix it and chase her, but i don't believe this is correct path to go with a BPD women.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pablo333]

I believe she has a group of new online friends would this be a reason for this behaviour

[livednlearned]

Hi Pablo333,

She may be feeling that the increase in intimacy became too intense for her, so she dialed back. A lot of people with BPD struggle with boundaries -- if she does not have good communication skills or skills to check impulsive behavior, she'll go for all-or-nothing type efforts to enforce boundaries, like cutting off contact. A long-distance relationship makes it easier to do this, it's one of the appeals (lower risk). The impending thought that you will suddenly be there and available might be hard for her. She might be thinking, What if you don't like who she really is? There is a lot of self-loathing with BPD, and long-distance allows her to feel safe to a certain extent that isn't as likely in a face-to-face intimate relationship.

So the delicate balance now is to be the great guy she got to know early on, and let go of any intensity that might be difficult for her to deal with.

If you have been pursuing her online and she is freezing you out, can you take a break for a bit and see what happens?

[confounded]

Well have a similar issue with my friend. Things got really intense last autumn, and in December she vanished on me (the second time). In the beginning I pestered her for an explanation, which only served to push her away even more. Then  I sent her a message where I apologized for that, and did not contact her anymore. I received no reply from her, but I just bumped into her on the town, and we talked a bit - she in her turn apologized for treating me like she did, and we agreed to keep some distance between us until she gets her head sorted out.

So you might just need to wait it out - let her know that it's her option to contact you, and that you will not push it, and just wait. It's hard to do, and might not work out anyway, but anything else will probaby just end up driving her futher away.

[Pablo333]

Thank you for the advice on this Confounded and Livednlearned

I'm taking the fact that we might message each other once or twice each day/every 2nd day still as a positive in this situation but its still nothing like it was, I asked if anything was up she just told me she was busy but i know shes really not, i accepted her response and have only spoken lightly since.

@Livednlearned, yeah i think you might be right in this case, as when she started to shrink in replies she snapped a little at me with one of her messages which is what triggered me to educate myself about BPD, She was the one who was abandoned in her previous relationship and the guy kept giving her small breadcrumbs of hope, So i can imagine she is super protective right now and doesn't want to go through a similar experience.

I've decided after reading some of the information plus this advice I've gotten so far is to just relax and take it as it comes effectively letting her come to me, if she still wants me she will come back if not, I've lost a close friend which sucks but i can move on.

I like to work with plans so my thought was maybe a week if she doesn't talk to me ill attempt to say something funny, then say if you feel like talking you know where i am then leave it at that.

I'm trying to walk the line as i don't want to trigger a response if i come across as needy, as she's told me before if men show too much emotion she will be gone.

Confounded have you resolved things since then?

[confounded]

I like to work with plans so my thought was maybe a week if she doesn't talk to me ill attempt to say something funny, then say if you feel like talking you know where i am then leave it at that.

I'm trying to walk the line as i don't want to trigger a response if i come across as needy, as she's told me before if men show too much emotion she will be gone.

Confounded have you resolved things since then?

That sounds like a good plan. In my experience, showing too much emotion especially in the early stages is something that can scare even nons, women and men alike, and with pwBPD, that feeling is amplified manyfold.

I actually bumped into my friend just a few hours before I wrote that message, so no resolution has been achieved yet. But I'm feeling positive, since she was calm and relaxed, and didn't try to pretend as if she hadn't seen me - she even waved hello to me first. She's very conflict avoidant, and I've seen her trying to hide behind a clothes rack in a shop or behind a friend on the street when she sees someone she wouldn't like to talk to - so when she didn't even try to do that, I believe her when she said we are ok, and that she just needs time to sort out her own issues.

[Pablo333]

Confounded I'm sorry to here i hope you can work through it, a lot of positive signs but as you said.

I guess this is an update so to speak,

She disabled her Facebook, i noticed and asked if anything was up she didn't reply to this, then i followed up with "is there anything that is im here to talk if you need" but i didn't get a response instead the subject was changed.

We had a bit more of conversation yesterday than we had over the last week, but i guess it was like we were when we were friends, if i bring anything up more than friends im pretty sure she just wont respond. I'm trying to fix this asap as im leaving in three weeks time things will be interesting a little because i wont be able to talk to her at length at all for a month and a half.

Because time is against me I'm really still torn between trying to lay out some ground rules, or just giving her space. Space has been working for me she'll send me random messages or ask a question but i just want to fix it and its killing me to be passive.

[livednlearned]

i just want to fix it and its killing me to be passive.

Could this be more about your own abandonment anxiety? We are evolved to bond and attach to other people, and for those of us who have insecure attachment styles, losing those bonds can be triggering. I think sometimes people with BPD, who are highly attuned or hypersensitive, can sense when we are more concerned about our own needs than theirs. Navigating a BPD relationship, especially when it's on life support, is about recognizing when our own stuff is activated.

It's possible that she felt engulfed and needed to pull back so she could right herself. Any move on your part to get your needs met will feel invalidating, and any move to move intimacy too quickly or expose more of her vulnerability could be perceived as a threat to her (unstable) sense of individuality.

When things move quickly in a relationship, it can feel wonderful to have no boundaries. This isn't usually sustainable and can actually feel very scary, so one party will pull back to try and stabilize themselves.

It's tempting to want to go back to that boundary-free feeling, it's also what she may be struggling to avoid because it ultimately felt scary, like she was losing herself.

[Pablo333]

I haven't done too much i would think that would trigger this alert but it is indeed possible, as after my breakup im pretty insecure still.

I've tried to analyze everything that we spoke about to see if there was anything particular but there wasn't that i could see.

Would you still agree to just freeze her out as you mentioned earlier for a few weeks? As you said if this is indeed her reaction any effort on my part will simply push her away.

[Pablo333]

I asked her about when im going to travel and she basically attacked me about something i said earlier, i must have triggered her.

[C.Stein]

I asked her about when im going to travel and she basically attacked me about something i said earlier, i must have triggered her.

Why do you think she took issue with whatever you said?   Does she have an issue with you traveling?

[livednlearned]

I asked her about when im going to travel and she basically attacked me about something i said earlier, i must have triggered her.

It's possible that she is perfectly fine with the relationship exactly the way it is. Being long-distance means she can manage the boundaries very easily. In person, she knows it could be harder. Her sense of self is not as defined as what you or I might experience, and this can mean that even the slightest pressure produces tremendous anxiety. Not understanding why it's happening can lead her to cope in ways that ultimately seem to sabotage the relationship.

So it's possible that the idea of traveling to see her is what gets her emotions rolling.

Can you see how feelings = facts for her? If she feels pressured or smothered, then she finds a reason to verify it. For you, the facts are the facts. Her feelings seem to be connected to them, and you try to figure out which one (this can be exhausting).

It is possible that she is not ready to be together face to face. This might not be a topic to press... .

[Pablo333]

Why do you think she took issue with whatever you said?   Does she have an issue with you traveling?

She took the wording of what i said earlier and twisted it into an accusation towards her, then kept being defensive about it not believing me at all it was out of no where to me and seemed very calculated in its attack to push me away, I didn't lose my cool i just said i didn't mean it that way and wouldn't never do it etc.

Then i said I'll talk about coming to see her another time and ended the conversation.

Livednlearned, Yeah we spoke a bit then as soon as i said i need to know some dates to sort it now, she asked if i was still going away first  (8 weeks i will be away for) then afterwards attacked me. it must be something that's threatening to her and she might be on a downturn. She was so happy a month ago then as i said it changed, do you think timing plays a big role when talking to a pwBPD to a bigger extent than a nonBPD.

[livednlearned]

It sounds like you might be JADE-ing her in conversations (justify, argue, defend, explain). It's common, lots of people do this. It's also something that tends to keep arguments going, and even escalate them. Not just with people who have BPD.

Read everything you can about validation, which is a communication skill design to help you with relationship building. One researcher/psychologist describes it as "intent to be with, intent to understand," versus what he calls "intent to task, intent to change." Often, when we are looking down the barrel of an accusation, we immediately use language that is "intent to change (her mind, her behavior, her feelings)" so that we can restore things. Except this language tends to suggest that the other person is not doing the right thing (thinking the wrong thing, imagining things, misinterpreting things). For someone who is BPD, feelings = facts, so when you defend her accusations by saying, "That's not what I meant," she hears, "Your thoughts are bad, you are bad." And off goes the conversation into a loop of defensiveness.

What you want to do is take a moment to understand what she's feeling. This is different than agreeing that she's right.

It's an easy skill to learn, more difficult to implement. Most people race through a few validating sentences and then switch into some form of JADE-ing, which just makes matters worse.

You have to commit to validate, and then stay with it. If she is too angry and becomes abusive, then it's time for boundaries.

Validation is not about being a doormat, it's about changing how you communicate to interrupt the cycle of escalating argumentation.

[C.Stein]

What you want to do is take a moment to understand what she's feeling. This is different than agreeing that she's right.

It's an easy skill to learn, more difficult to implement. Most people race through a few validating sentences and then switch into some form of JADE-ing, which just makes matters worse.

I agree validating someones feelings is important and a fast switch into JADE-ing is counter productive.  That said there is a mighty fine line here because many people, not just borderlines, will hear what they want to hear.  This means that validating  feelings can/will be construed as admitting the person is right even when they are not.

How does one deal with this without JADE-ing at one point or another.  I can see it as sending very confusing messages to a borderline who is latching onto feeling validation as also thought validation.  When you address the thoughts in order to avoid being a doormat/lapdog then the borderline, who may have believe you had validated her thoughts, will be confused and probably triggered into another argument and the cycle continues.  Catch 22.

Am I way off base here?

[livednlearned]

How does one deal with this without JADE-ing at one point or another.  I can see it as sending very confusing messages to a borderline who is latching onto feeling validation as also thought validation.

Can you give an example of how this is happening, C.Stein? I think I understand what you mean, and it might be easier to look at what's happening with an example.

[C.Stein]

How does one deal with this without JADE-ing at one point or another.  I can see it as sending very confusing messages to a borderline who is latching onto feeling validation as also thought validation.

Can you give an example of how this is happening, C.Stein? I think I understand what you mean, and it might be easier to look at what's happening with an example.

Here is a hypothetical situation. 

• Your SO accuses you of doing or saying something that you did not



• SO gets angry/rages about this



• You attempt to diffuse/placate by validating SO's feelings



• The validation works, your SO calms down



• SO walks away from the discussion thinking they have "won" because the validation is seen as an admission of guilt



• In order to maintain the peace you never bring up the false accusation again



• SO brings up the issue again somewhere down the road ... .Catch 22

[livednlearned]

SO walks away from the discussion thinking they have "won" because the validation is seen as an admission of guilt

This is maybe expecting validation to do more than what it's for.

If I give the scenario with my son feeling suicidal, it would go like this:

HIM: There is no reason to live. No one wants me. I could just fall out of this car and die and no one would care. There was that one time you were late and I had to wait outside for an hour by myself and you didn't care. You don't love me and you never wanted me.

ME: You must feel really hurt to say that, S14. Did something happen today that made you feel bad?

Similar to your hypothetical scenario, he feels better. And I don't bring up the false accusation again (that I don't love him, didn't want him, wouldn't care if he died).

When he brings up the issue again, I respond the same way. I know he'll bring it up again because it's the way he communicates to me the specific pain he is feeling (not lovable). I know that validating him one time will not cure that pain, it will simply let him know I hear that he is in pain, and believe him.

[C.Stein]

SO walks away from the discussion thinking they have "won" because the validation is seen as an admission of guilt

This is maybe expecting validation to do more than what it's for.

If I give the scenario with my son feeling suicidal, it would go like this:

HIM: There is no reason to live. No one wants me. I could just fall out of this car and die and no one would care. There was that one time you were late and I had to wait outside for an hour by myself and you didn't care. You don't love me and you never wanted me.

ME: You must feel really hurt to say that, S14. Did something happen today that made you feel bad?

Similar to your hypothetical scenario, he feels better. And I don't bring up the false accusation again (that I don't love him, didn't want him, wouldn't care if he died).

When he brings up the issue again, I respond the same way. I know he'll bring it up again because it's the way he communicates to me the specific pain he is feeling (not lovable). I know that validating him one time will not cure that pain, it will simply let him know I hear that he is in pain, and believe him.

I can see where this type of validation can be very beneficial regardless of how it is viewed by the one being validated. 

I would think the circumstances and people involved can change how well the validation works and how it is received.

So as not to get too far off topic, in Pablo's case his words were twisted into something that was not true.  There is a reason she did this and that is where the validation comes in.  Now once you have validated and empathized with her feelings how do you go about setting the record straight without JADE-ing?  Certainly in some cases just letting it "slide" is the best thing to do but in cases where not addressing something is damaging the relationship or yourself how do you approach it without triggering or JADE-ing?

[livednlearned]

So as not to get too far off topic, in Pablo's case his words were twisted into something that was not true.

I understand -- what Pablo describes is the same thing when my son says I don't love him. It's similar, no? Our instinct is to say, "Yes I love you, I didn't mean it, I would never do that, you mean so much to me, please listen."

Part of validating how someone feels is to resist the urge to defend ourselves that moment.

She took the wording of what i said earlier and twisted it into an accusation towards her, then kept being defensive about it not believing me at all it was out of no where to me and seemed very calculated in its attack to push me away, I didn't lose my cool i just said i didn't mean it that way and wouldn't never do it etc.

once you have validated and empathized with her feelings how do you go about setting the record straight without JADE-ing?  Certainly in some cases just letting it "slide" is the best thing to do but in cases where not addressing something is damaging the relationship or yourself how do you approach it without triggering or JADE-ing?

What is an example of when something is damaging to the relationship or yourself?

Sometimes I take a break and revisit the subject when emotions are no longer on tilt. Sometimes I only ask validating questions.

If it's just the same old accusation and there are no practical consequences to the accusation, I sometimes do drop it altogether. It's often powered by one of the big emotions and I know I'll be validating those feelings regularly.

If, however, things escalate to the point where I am feeling abused or raged at, I draw a boundary.

[C.Stein]

I understand -- what Pablo describes is the same thing when my son says I don't love him. It's similar, no? Our instinct is to say, "Yes I love you, I didn't mean it, I would never do that, you mean so much to me, please listen."

Part of validating how someone feels is to resist the urge to defend ourselves that moment.

It is similar but different if for no other reason than the dynamics of the relationship are different, mother-son (adult-child) vs. romantic partners (adult-adult).  I'm not questioning the need to validate here but rather how do you go about setting the record straight when there is a need for it.  :)oing so during a period of dysregulation is not going to work which is why we validate at these times, however if you trigger a dysregulation when you do address the issue then you are right back where you started.  

What is an example of when something is damaging to the relationship or yourself?

An general example might be your SO is accusing you of doing something (which you didn't do) that can/will destabilize the relationship and/or is an unwarranted attack on your character which impacts how your SO views you as an individual.   A more specific example might be false accusations of dishonesty (lying).  

Letting these types of things go without setting the record straight is like letting an open wound get infected.  If your SO continues to falsely believe what they are accusing you of then it just sits and festers inside them (and potentially yourself), bubbling once again to the surface sometime down the road but with more negative energy attached to it.  

[Pablo333]

Hi guys,

You've touched on some interesting points here, from my point of view.

I felt if i did admit that i did what she was saying or even acknowledge it through validation she would of cut me off straight away

I've seen her do that with other friends before and i didn't want to go through that, it would of been an admission of breaking her trust which I'll never do.

I think after a month or so of her not being how she was its too much for too long.

I think i'm going to cut my losses on this one, Its driven me insane over the last month to the point where i actually had to cry about it, I've never done that before

and it was very hard for me (I have other life things going on that have compounded my emotions).

I want to try one last ditch effort when im away to send her something thoughtful from my travels to Korea and see how she reacts from this if its positive great

if not at least as a man i can acknowledge that ive tried and can move on with some sort of closure.

Does this sound like a reasonable idea? there isnt too much on BPD's and gifts.

[C.Stein]

I felt if i did admit that i did what she was saying or even acknowledge it through validation she would of cut me off straight away

This is the tough part of validation.  You are validating the feelings behind the accusation, not the accusation itself.   It is a fine line to walk at times.  Have you been able to determine why she feels the way she does? 

I want to try one last ditch effort when im away to send her something thoughtful from my travels to Korea and see how she reacts from this if its positive great

if not at least as a man i can acknowledge that ive tried and can move on with some sort of closure.

Does this sound like a reasonable idea? there isnt too much on BPD's and gifts.

To try or not is a deeply personal decision and one you should make fully knowing what a relationship with a borderline entails.  If you do not feel capable of being in this type of relationship then IMO it is best to move on.  That said there are some very valuable lessons to learn from this relationship.  Don't let the opportunity to learn and grow pass you by here.

[Pablo333]

The way she is still distant i believe, since things escalated she felt threatened and has attached herself to another guy and is engulfed by him/new group of friends. They dont know the real her and i think shes eating it up.

She'll reply if i ask things or try and be funny but the talking doesn't last long.

There was an almost a direct decline from this point of meeting these people, maybe i was i needy i dont know.

But also when things were escalating there were comments like "what if we fall in love" and i'm sensitive, these should have been hints to me. I wasn't educated on BPD then and was just like ah shes just scared a little.

She also shut herself off from social media, which was our primary means of communication. I've tried to find reasons for the behavior but nothing directly related to a feelings at least that she will talk about, I've just been myself with her not trying to bring anything up aside from getting her address, but i find myself obsessing and its not good, reading these forums is really helping me but.

[livednlearned]

I felt if i did admit that i did what she was saying or even acknowledge it through validation she would of cut me off straight away

I've seen her do that with other friends before and i didn't want to go through that, it would of been an admission of breaking her trust which I'll never do.

Validation is not admitting something, though it is wise to recognize that validation does not *cure* BPD. It is simply a way to mitigate some of the emotional dysregulation. Ultimately, it is about empathy blended with communication skills.

My experience with pwBPD is that there is also a powerful inner narrative about being a victim, and this can make for extremely tenuous relationships when they are long-distance and/or online. Many pwBPD lack the emotional skills needed to repair breaches in the relationship, and a LD relationship makes it very easy to cut ties at the the simplest slight.

It sounds like she is believes that people will inevitably betray her trust, which is probably true, particularly in the sense that her standards for trust are extremely high and maybe no attainable. Even people we love let us down from time to time. Someone with BPD has a hard time believing that even loving people can do things that hurt them.

Sending a gift is probably not going to help or harm the relationship either way. More important is your intention, and whether you will feel resentful if she does not acknowledge the gift, or does something with it that might lead to you feeling hurt (sends it back, for example, or gives it to someone else).

[Pablo333]

Now that i do remember that when she attacked me, I was like so whats the dates so that we can organize to catchup, then she asked if i was still going to Malaysia,

of which i said yes. it was directly after this reply that she attacked me.

Not sure if it was a trigger of me being away for so long but i couldnt tell.

Is it common practice like any woman for a BPD woman just to keep you at that right distance?

I kind of understand validation but i would really be interested in some example reponses to my situation that well help me alot in understanding how i should handle it if it ever happens again

Basicly she accused me of going behind her back and telling someone something from her past, i happen to bring this thing of her past up to her just in conversation

she linked the two and kept saying well i find it really coincidental, and i guess i know where it came from etc... .

Someone was talking behind her back basicly.

[Pablo333]

So as an update to others, i finally confronted her about why shes been distant,

It was along the lines of she said shes not ready for a relationship and i dont know everything about her, and that she is a bad person using better language than she did, i acknowledged her opinion and said that i still want her but i will give her space to decide and that im there if she needs.

I wasnt too sure of a proper response for this self deprecation but i like to think i handled it well, keep you guys updated once i get back.

[tryingtohelp]

Hello,  just want to clarify,  have you two not actually met in real life ?

If she is genuinely BPD , you will have a difficult enough relationship at a human level with real and normal face to face interaction , but if your only interaction with her has been by computer , you are in a different situation all together, a no-man's land, as it is only html on a website .  Throw in some photos , web cam or voice it still doesn't equal real contact.

About 95% of communication is by body language, that doesn't leave much once you remove that part of the equation.

Trying to work out what is going on with her as a BPD is hard enough when she is in your home , let alone someone who is only an internet entity.

You really need to meet this person , one way or another.  Then you can make some decisions.

Good Luck 

[Pablo333]

Hey Tryingtohelp,

No i havn't met her in real life yet, its all been via chat and voice comm,

The only pictures i have are old ones of her which tells me somethings wrong here, or she covers her face, for some reason she hates herself which is fairly evident in her response to me. The plan is once i get back from my trip to organize to see her just for a few days and see how things are, maybe just press friendship so she doesn't get scared off as you said its very hard for me to read anything from just text, though after talking for a such a long time i feel i can read between the lines quite well,