My sister and my neice

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hi,

I've just recently learned that my sister most likely has BPD.  We've had a difficult relationship on and off and I have learned to be very careful to say "the right thing".  The problem is, I often don't know what the right thing is.  All of that is sad and depressing, but what really frightens me is that she now has the power to cut me off and keep me from seeing my 7 year old niece whom I love dearly.  I thought that I was doing well - ie: tiptoeing successfully through the minefield, but a couple of weeks ago I again, accidentally said the wrong thing.  She got very upset, so I apologized and explained that I loved her and didn't mean to hurt her.  She then got even more upset and told me that I was making it all about me, when she was the one who had been hurt. She told me off harshly and then went to our mother and spent several hours telling her how terrible I was.  Since then, she has condescended to be in my presence, but has made it clear that I am on probation.  Again, I feel completely powerless as she has total control over whether or not I get to see my niece.

I am also upset by the way she treats my mother - she gets away with bullying the whole family, because we are all afraid of making a mistake around her, but my mother gets the worst of it.

I do love my sister very much and feel tremendously sorry for her.  I feel that I'm partly to blame because I feel that by not standing up to her, I am enabling her sometimes toxic behavior, but I'm also afraid of what she might do to herself and others if I don't play her game.

This is my first post and I welcome any comments or suggestions.  I don't take offense easily, so please be absolutely honest about anything I've said.

Thanks.

[truecomfort]

Hi,

I've just recently learned that my sister most likely has BPD.  We've had a difficult relationship on and off and I have learned to be very careful to say "the right thing".  The problem is, I often don't know what the right thing is.  All of that is sad and depressing, but what really frightens me is that she now has the power to cut me off and keep me from seeing my 7 year old niece whom I love dearly.  I thought that I was doing well - ie: tiptoeing successfully through the minefield, but a couple of weeks ago I again, accidentally said the wrong thing.  She got very upset, so I apologized and explained that I loved her and didn't mean to hurt her.  She then got even more upset and told me that I was making it all about me, when she was the one who had been hurt. She told me off harshly and then went to our mother and spent several hours telling her how terrible I was.  Since then, she has condescended to be in my presence, but has made it clear that I am on probation.  Again, I feel completely powerless as she has total control over whether or not I get to see my niece.

I am also upset by the way she treats my mother - she gets away with bullying the whole family, because we are all afraid of making a mistake around her, but my mother gets the worst of it.

I do love my sister very much and feel tremendously sorry for her.  I feel that I'm partly to blame because I feel that by not standing up to her, I am enabling her sometimes toxic behavior, but I'm also afraid of what she might do to herself and others if I don't play her game.

This is my first post and I welcome any comments or suggestions.  I don't take offense easily, so please be absolutely honest about anything I've said.

Thanks.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Truecomfort! 

Welcome to our online family. I'm really glad that you have shared some of your story with us. You will find a lot of others here in similar situations to yours.

Sounds like you have your hands full with your sister, and I can tell that you want to try and keep the relationship open. At the same time, you are not ignorant of what is going on with her. How did you find out that she may have BPD? For many of us it is quite a  moment when we learn about BPD, finally finding some validation for what we could never quite put our finger on.

As you navigate the attempts to try and communicate with your sister, here is a link for you that may be helpful regarding validation:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

Do you feel that you may be able to try some of the skills mentioned in this article?
Keep hanging in there!

 
Wools

[truecomfort]

Thanks for your response.  I have been working on becoming more validating with my sister my whole adult life.  As a kid and teenager, I was less supportive because I was bewildered by her constant sense of injury and her claims of abuse where none existed.  I have only realized recently that she most likely has BPD, but I've known for years that she has been struggling.  Still, I struggle to know what to do from time to time.  I took a trip recently with my sister, mother and neice - one we'd been planning for six months.  My sister drove and insisted on listening to the same few love songs at top volume over and over again for the four hours there and the four hours back.  She's recently had a two week love affair that didn't work out.  I tried to validate her feeling - I understand that it hurts to go through a break up , while at the same time trying to explain that we couldn't hear each other speak (her daughter was crying and covering her ears in the back seat.)  Her response was that no one in the world could be suffering the way she was and therefore we were all being selfish.  She refused to turn off the music and we all suffered in silence.  Fair or not, I'm at the point where I want distance myself a little, but can't for the sake of my parents and my niece.

My question is - how do I set boundaries and still see my niece?

[idedpatient]

Hi, truecomfort.

I'm really sorry that you are having to go through this with your sister and that it impacts your relationship with your niece. I'm in a similar situation with my own sister, although she is more of a narcissist than BPD, so it's not exactly the same. Nonetheless, she's using her kids as a tool to manipulate me and it's very upsetting. My mother exhibits a lot of BPD traits, so I'm trying to view my situation as though my mother were the one manipulating me to determine if I have any insights that may help for your situation. With my mother, it's helpful for me to view her as a toddler when she's acting out because that makes the behavior easier to understand, and I think her emotional development was arrested at the age of about three. When a toddler is having a tantrum, you get a lot farther with them by validating their feelings than you do by arguing with them or even just trying to reason with them, and I've found that approaching the situation with my mother in this way works well as long (as I don't actually treat her like a toddler, just use that for my own frame of reference).

I've found that most character disordered people suffered from arrested emotional development in childhood and that whatever age that occurred is the age they seem to be when dealing with emotional stress. Sounds like your sister may have arrested somewhere in the preteen years based on the melodrama of the love songs on repeat, so maybe if you approach the situation like you are dealing with a heartbroken 13-year-old, you can make some headway, or at least calm your own frustration so that it feels less personal. That being said, I've not made any progress with my own sister, so I'm more commenting here to offer you support than advice

From what I understand, it's best to have a goal for the outcome of any exchange with a character disordered person so that you can focus on the end result and not get swept up in the drama. If you want to maintain your relationship with your niece, try to keep your focus on that as the goal of any conversation you have with your sister. If your feedback does not support your end goal, then it isn't useful no matter how good it might feel in the moment to say it, in other words. This worked for me with my own sister for about a year and a half before she finally noticed that I was not interested in a relationship with her – just her kids. She's since started acting out and I've not determined the best course of action, but I can say that I was able to keep the peace and see my niece and nephew for a long period of time without having to deal with my sister's narcissistic rage, so it may be worth trying. I would invite her and the kids over for lunch and we'd have a pleasant visit because I'd focus on spending time with the kids and while I was never engaged with my sister, I was also never overtly dismissive of her – I was cordial and nothing more.

In any case, best wishes to you and please keep me posted on your situation. Hopefully we can help one another navigate these situations and still be able to see the kids we love so much.

[Woolspinner2000]

Truecomfort,

I've been pondering how to best answer your question:

My question is - how do I set boundaries and still see my niece?

I don't have lots of answers but there may be others here who can offer you more in depth advice. This is a difficult question and situation. It reminds me of those situations which grandparents often face and have with the feeling of potentially losing their grandchildren. Unfortunately grandparents don't have any legal right, and most likely you may not either. However, I don't know the laws and legalities. How old is your niece? Does she have her own cell phone or email address yet?

When it comes to boundary setting, I am still very much in the process of learning this myself. I have found that the following is true:

Enforcing boundaries without values, or that haven't been clearly communicated and understood, tends to be shallow, reactive, confrontational and destructive

and

Having values-based boundaries empowers us and motivates others

These quotes may be found within the following article here at our site:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Here is another good article about setting boundaries for your review as well:

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a105.htm

These words will help you begin to process further what boundaries really are and how we put them into practice. Do you think there may be answers for you here?

 
Wools

[Ditmas]

Just wanted to say your situation sounds so much like my own, except I have a nephew instead of a niece. The language you use to describe your sister's behavior, and your own efforts to mitigate it, is so eerily similar. Unfortunately I don't have any really useful advice, in that my sister has for the past two years banned me from her life, which means I can only see my nephew through her ex-husband - but I have managed to maintain a good relationship with him. I still hope that one day she'll get treatment, or at least take a look at how hurtful her behavior is to our entire family, but I'm not wildly hopeful (I'm getting married next month and she sent me a terse, passive-aggressive "no" RSVP.) Anyway, just know that you're not alone and you're not making any of it up and it's not your fault.

[truecomfort]

Thank you all.  It means so much to me to hear from you.  I don't like to talk to anyone about my sister and our relationship as I don't want to badmouth her or have anyone think badly of her.  The anonymity of this site allows me to express my feelings and concerns and to ask questions.  So, I'm very grateful.  It's also really helpful to hear from people in a similar situation.  At the same time, it makes me sad that others are struggling with their sibling (and other familial) relationships.

idedpatient, I think you are right, I think my sister is still emotionally a teenager.  Thanks for bringing up the possibility.  It helps me to understand her a little.  Your advice about having a goal in conversations with my sister is a good one as well.  I had already decided that, for now, the best possible action for me is to be polite to her and to focus on my relationship with my niece.  I hope that works for now.  I do still hope to someday have a deeper and more meaningful relationship with my sister, but right now I'm not sure that it's possible.

Wool, your comments and links about boundries are helpful.   I feel I've always, with everyone in my life, attempted to speak from my values and to respect theirs, but I don't know how good I am at this.  I'm not a person who understands or likes melodrama (although I do care deeply for people), so perhaps I'm not as sensitive to that as I should be.  One of the articles you linked to suggests that you make someone unhappy - knowingly or not, that you should apologize for it by saying something like 'I can see that I’ve hurt you and I’m sorry.'   I have tried that with my sister, most recently when I made her unintentionally angry. She responded with even greater anger, cut me off briefly and then let me know that I was on probation.  She said that she felt that, that by apologizing and acknowledging that I had caused her pain, I was trying to make the conversation all about me.  So clearly, I have to learn new and better ways of communicating with her.

Good luck to everyone.

[Woolspinner2000]

Truecomfort,

Your words reminded me some of my own similar situation:

One of the articles you linked to suggests that you make someone unhappy - knowingly or not, that you should apologize for it by saying something like 'I can see that I’ve hurt you and I’m sorry.'   I have tried that with my sister, most recently when I made her unintentionally angry. She responded with even greater anger, cut me off briefly and then let me know that I was on probation.

I've been working on trying to be a good listener myself, yet one who can show empathy too. I suppose it is like the SET method: Sympathy, Empathy, Truth. With my DH, I try to hear what he is saying (i.e. he is sad about something), so I say, "I'm sorry you are feeling badly." Then he replies, "I'm not feeling badly." Okay... .so that didn't work very well. I try again when he is upset about another matter. "That must be hard to handle," I say kindly. His response: "It's not so hard."

As I learn and observe, I find it is often best for me to only listen. In the end he really does not seem to care what I am thinking. He only wants to be heard, AND I think he wants to complain. He doesn't want or understand sympathy or empathy. He seems unable to receive it, and over and over again I see the pattern play its way out in our communication. I really do think he is emotionally unable to receive kind words. I think with pwBPD, the same is true. I experienced it over and over again with my uBPDm. The pattern is so very similar to what I view in DH, and currently I am not responding when he has something to say, but I am still listening. He doesn't seem to mind which rather shocks me. I wish for responses from others when they talk with me, but DH doesn't seem to need them very often. Is this at all like your sister? Have you tried not responding and if so, how does she do with that?

It's a tough call because one time not responding will be the right thing to do, another time it will be the wrong thing to do. Thus the point is made, that you cannot fix or please a BPD. You can state the truth, and repeat. While difficult, if you can avoid getting sucked into her debating and bating of you, but stay with the truths, it will help you. The situation may still be difficult, but you will be setting achievable boundaries for your own protection.

 
Wools

[truecomfort]

Thanks Wools,

I can get away with just listening for awhile and then she pushes me to respond.  If she doesn't like what she hears, she gets angry or cuts people off.  I believe in being both honest and kind when I respond, but she's always fishing for some specific answer.  Trouble is, I don't have a script, so I don't always know what she wants to hear.  I don't want to lie either.  Often she is looking for support and permission for self destructive behavior or for behavior that would be harmful to others and I have to tell her I can't be supportive of that.  I do tell her that I love her and back off when I sense things getting out of control, but she perceives that as selfish behavior on my part.  Maybe she's right.  Sometimes I feel hurt and need a break, but I'm never certain that I'm doing the right thing.

Best of luck with your own situation.  It sounds as if you are making progress. Breaks my heart that there are people who are suffering with BPD and that there are people who have to cope with people with BPD.  Loving people is the easy part.  Helping them and those around them (including oneself) can be so hard.  I worry about my mother constantly who gets the worst of it from my sister.

Hang in there.  Virtual hugs (if that's not inappropriate.)
truecomfort

[Sunfl0wer]

Sorry for chiming in late and if I'm bit digesting whole thread.  (Mind is mushy today)

Just wanted to respond on this as it felt very familiar to me.  (Both my mom and sis with uBPD)

I do tell her that I love her and back off when I sense things getting out of control, but she perceives that as selfish behavior on my part.  Maybe she's right.  Sometimes I feel hurt and need a break, but I'm never certain that I'm doing the right thing.

I recall learning about boundaries and trying to start enforcing mine by backing away when I feel the climate begin to change with the pwBPD.

There was a sense in me that "this doesn't feel right."
Well, after so many years of allowing the pwBPD feelings to exist above any I may have, uh yeah, having my own did not feel right to me, as I was doing something different.

I had a choice to get "relief" of my immediate discomfort by appeasing the other person.  This usually resulted in my own internal conflict of feeling I betrayed myself.

I wonder if it is helpful for you to define "doing the right thing?"
What does that mean?

(I wonder if you have your values clearly defined, maybe boundary enforcement will begin to actually feel like the right thing... .After spending some time with your own discomfort from trying something new, from trying out being selfish cause that is often the right thing (imho) for everyone whether it feels good at the moment or not.)

Thoughts?

[truecomfort]

Hi Sunfl0wer,

I think I have a clear sense of what my values are, but I want to do what is right for both my sister, myself and the rest of the family.  That's my struggle.  Kindness is essential to me, but I also don't want to take or see anyone else take abuse.  Setting boundaries may be good for all, but what exactly are those boundaries in this case?  It has to be different with everyone.

I worry too about my niece for a variety of reasons.  I wonder how her relationship with my sister will evolve and whether she'll be able to understand what's going on.  She and her mom (my sis) are very close, but my sister can also lash out at her verbally and suddenly.  She's 7 years old - a vulnerable age.  There's no danger of physical abuse and, on the whole, my sister is a good mother, but I don't see things getting easier as my niece gets older.

Best wishes,
truecomfort

[Rebecca333]

Hi, Truecomfort.

You are not alone.  I have a thirteen year old niece, living with a BP mom - my sister.  I certainly don't have a lot of answers, but I'm glad you are here, and am hopeful that the wisdom and experience of others on this board can be helpful.

Right now, I am struggling with feeling that I am abandoning my niece to my sister's emotional abuse.  I know that's not objectively true, as my sister has told me I can't contact her and forbidden my niece to call me, but I still feel like I should be able to do something. 

My hands are also tied by the fact that my sister had falsely accused me of abusing my niece twice.  Even though the investigation showed that the accusations were totally unfounded, I still am afraid of what she could do.  I actually left my teaching career partly because of my fear that the allegations would become public.
 
I know my story probably isn't particularly comforting, but I wanted you to see that what is happening to you is unfortunately not unheard of.  I feel right now, as my niece has little access to mental health care and is dominated by her mother, that insisting on or trying to have communication with her would leave her unprotected if her mother turned on her.  In any event, I have no legal right to contact, and no interest in being charged with harassment. 

I'm not sure, really.  It's definitely complicated when children are involved.  I have been a very large part of my niece's life since she was born, and so I'm not "just" an Auntie.  I worry every day about her.  Even though she's older than your niece, she's still a child.

My sister cut me off from contact with my niece because I told her she could not send me threatening and abusive emails.  I can defend my boundaries - I'm just worried about the damage done to my niece in the process. 

My bests wishes to you, Truecomfort.  Peace.

[Coral]

TrueComfort,  Being down the road a bit further, maybe my experience can be beneficial for you.  I was terrorized that my BPD sis would cut me off from the rest of the family (her four children and my our mother who had dementia) when I started setting and enforcing boundaries.  That is exactly what happened.  However, my nieces and nephews were older (late teens) and are now well into their forties, and they keep in contact with me.  Our parents are deceased.  The kids are all damaged to varying degrees and I do my dead level best to maintain healthy relationships with them.  One niece has started pushing me to get together with her mother so things can be more peaceful. 

I don't bring up her mother.  My niece does and my BPD sis is haranguing the hell out of her kids over the tension between us.  As gently as I can, I tell my niece to stay out of it; she'll get hurt by her mother and only her mother and I can work things out  (like when hell freezes over).