Paying her to leave me alone?

[Surg_Bear]

It has been a long time since I actually started a new thread on my own... .so, here goes.

Married 1991 to 1999.  One daughter (D18)

Divorced for five-ish years.  (She left me by going across country to visit her parents - it was supposed to be a 2 week vacation - with our baby, but they never came back.  There was no warning.  No discussion.  I received divorce papers on Christmas Eve)

Re-married 2005 to present.  Second daughter (D7)

We agreed that the marriage was over / unrepairable / irreconcilable last summer.  It was me who declared this impossible.  I was tired of the emotional caretaking, walking on eggshells, the constant stream of nitpicking, emotional abuse, the sexual withholding (once or twice a year was too much for her) and the intermittent horrifying and cruel rages.  I could take no more.  I moved out for 10 days and stayed with a best friend.  Got my bearings, and decided that I'd give it one more chance, mainly due to her pleading and promises to be better.  Things were better only a matter of a couple weeks before she blessed me with the most severe and cruel rage she has ever waged upon me.

In couples therapy, after she had made a circular argument that basically told me that she could never be happy with me, and that she was going to continue to be impossible to please, I said it was over.  No more.

Decided to stay living together to make things easier on the kid still living with us, and for financial reasons- maintaining one household is a lot easier to do than maintaining two.

In the 26 years I have been emotionally attached to her, I have put up with much more than any sane man / woman would ever tolerate.  She is a high functioning BPD- a psychologist, and is very adept at psychologically torturing me.

So, we are now trying to discuss divorce.

Here is the problem I am having, the problem for which I need help:  Alimony (Spousal Support)

I am a decent human being, and fully accept my duty to provide support for her.  I know it is the right thing to do, and I am certain that I will do it.

The problem is my reaction to alimony.  Whenever I have to think about alimony, I get physically ill- I feel nauseated, and come close to vomiting.  I become flaming angry.  I notice that my thoughts make less sense.  I think horrible things.  I hate that I have given so much of myself to her impossible "happiness" already.  I have suffered decades of emotional abuse / torture.   I have already given until my emotional well has run dry.

Why do I have to give her any more?

She abused me.  Gaslighted me.  Ridiculed me.  Accused me.  Raged at me.  Withheld sex from me.  Told me I was sexually repulsive.  Thousands of times accused me of not loving her, and making me detail all of the ways I have expressed my love for her.  She made doing my work difficult by treating my after-hours (on-call) duties as some form of marital abandonment.  A kid in the ER with appendicitis means that I don't love my wife and family.  "If you leave to go to the hospital now, it PROVES that you don't love me!"  It has been classic BPD emotional abuse.

And now I have to pay her?

A lot of f-ing money, too.  My income is high enough, that 30% of support puts her crazy ass in the top 3% of income.  Plus her own income as a psychologist.  Plus child support.  She is going to remain wealthy, as a pleasant parting gift for making my life hell for 26 years.

I don't want to pay her.  I have already given more than a man could give.  She is a raging b___ that actually makes me fear for my physical safety during her rages, and I have to give her money?  Why is her behavior not criminal?  I never treated her the way she treated me.  I barely raised my voice at her. 

I know I have to pay her.  It's the law.  It's the right thing to do.  What I don't have a good handle on is how to deal with the anger and resentment that accompanies the duty to provide spousal support.

Yes, I have a therapist.  I see a Jungian Analyst 2 or 3 times a week.  He is helping me with my anger.  He is encouraging me to feel it, rather than pushing it aside for my imagined greater good. 

I am posting here because I'd like some feedback.  I'd like to know if others have similar resentment.  How have you reconciled the anger and resentment in your own minds.

At this point, I am telling myself that the money is a small price to pay to get her to leave me alone.  It's not really working for me, though.  I still get horrendously angry and so physically nauseated at the thought of having to pay this woman any more than a single red cent.

Anyway, thanks for reading and offering any suggestions.

Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

I am posting here because I'd like some feedback.  I'd like to know if others have similar resentment.  How have you reconciled the anger and resentment in your own minds.

I have similar anger and resentment. I don't know how to reconcile it. My anger and resentment is about the kids and his role as a parent in addition to financial stuff. It feels like he is getting off scott free. He didn't do the work while we were married and now that we are separating and moving towards divorce, he is still putting the ball in my court and I have to figure this stuff out. He gets to date and do whatever the heck he wants while I have to figure out how to keep our kids fed and happy and try to undo some of the crap that has been done over the years. I feel like he gets to walk away and start a new life while I am sitting here holding the bag so to speak.

I don't know how to get past the anger that I feel when I think about the fact that I am the one that has to keep everything together. I can't go to work or do anything without making sure that the kids have proper care. He gets to do whatever the heck he wants.

Are there similar things at play for you?

At this point, I am telling myself that the money is a small price to pay to get her to leave me alone.  It's not really working for me, though.  I still get horrendously angry and so physically nauseated at the thought of having to pay this woman any more than a single red cent.

Is it about the money? Or is it the fact that it seems so unfair to have to pay somebody to stop abusing you?

As a guy, you are at a disadvantage because it is usually assumed that the guy is the problem.

[gotbushels]

Hi Surg_Bear 

I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through. I can't offer advice on this, but I'd like to show that you have my support. I hope you may resolve this for yourself and your mind in peace.

[HurtinNW]

I am also feeling he got off "scott free" from hurting me and my kids. Now he is out and about, doing his hurt puppy act. He plays the victim while I get to fix years of damage to myself and my kids.

As in grrrrr... .

It's funny what finally tips up into the wait-a-minute feeling. I think for all of us it is different. For me it is my kids. How dare he hurt me kids! We all have those rock bottom places where we realize we do in fact have boundaries. That's when the anger starts... .for me it is as much about me as him. After all, I let him treat me and my kids horribly.

Two things I am keeping in mind... .

1) They don't really get off scott free. Would you for one moment want to live inside their souls? Would you want to be that person? Goodness begets goodness, and sometimes we have to fight hard to reclaim our goodness. In the end people who embrace joy, strength and optimism are happier. I would rather be a happy poor person than live for one minute in the soul of a toxic rich person.

2) Bitterness only hurts ourselves. I am trying to think of years into the future. Do I want to be a bitter person, still grousing about my ex long after friends have moved on? Or do I want to be a person who has found new happiness?

You might consider ways to image this to yourself. Every payment you make towards her is the price of your happiness and freedom. Life is full of injustice. Watch 12 years a slave for an example. The money you pay is a pittance compared to all the happiness you will find.

Also, yes, men are unfairly discriminated against in proceedings, but it would hurt to hire a good lawyer and ask questions. Alimony is going the way of extinction with all the gains women have made. That's something to talk about on the legal boards. Don't let her dictate the terms.

[vortex of confusion]

That's when the anger starts... .for me it is as much about me as him. After all, I let him treat me and my kids horribly.

The idea that I allowed it to happen makes me really uncomfortable. I did some work with a trauma coach one time and one of the things that was brought up was the fact that it is difficult to know how to react in abnormal situations. A person's response to abuse can vary widely. My fight or flight response kicked in and I essentially did the equivalent of playing dead. I did not "let" him do it in the traditional sense. It was more that primitive parts of me kicked in and I didn't know what to do. I was unable to think in a rational manner and fully recognize that what he was doing was abusive and I needed to make it stop.

1) They don't really get off scott free. Would you for one moment want to live inside their souls? Would you want to be that person? Goodness begets goodness, and sometimes we have to fight hard to reclaim our goodness. In the end people who embrace joy, strength and optimism are happier. I would rather be a happy poor person than live for one minute in the soul of a toxic rich person.

I feel like looking at things from this angle puts me in danger of getting back into a mindset where I am thinking more about stbx and his feelings rather than focusing on my own. Yes, I want to be happy and embrace joy. I feel like my path to being able to be happy and to embrace joy is to tread through some of these nasty thoughts and feelings without trying to dismiss them or excuse them away. I have spent most of my life putting on a smile and pretending that everything was okay. For me, I think I need to give myself the time and space to accept that everything is NOT okay. I am hurting and I am in pain. I don't care what stbx is thinking or feeling. Thinking about what he is thinking or feeling distracts me from focusing on what is going on inside of myself.

2) Bitterness only hurts ourselves. I am trying to think of years into the future. Do I want to be a bitter person, still grousing about my ex long after friends have moved on? Or do I want to be a person who has found new happiness?

I think bitterness stems from not allowing oneself to fully feel stuff and accept the nasty feelings. I say that based on things that I have found myself bitter over at different times. There are things from my childhood that I will occasionally have bitter and resentful feelings about. Most of it is stuff that I didn't acknowledge as problematic. Until I acknowledged that I was angry/hurt/whatever, it kept coming back to bite me in the butt. With stbx, I tried to be forgiving, I tried to overlook stuff, and I tried to let things go. The harder I try to dismiss my own feelings and eradicate any feeling that is associated with negativity (mad, sad, anger, bitter, resentful, etc.) the more I struggle with being able to move forward.

[HurtinNW]

That's when the anger starts... .for me it is as much about me as him. After all, I let him treat me and my kids horribly.

The idea that I allowed it to happen makes me really uncomfortable. I did some work with a trauma coach one time and one of the things that was brought up was the fact that it is difficult to know how to react in abnormal situations. A person's response to abuse can vary widely. My fight or flight response kicked in and I essentially did the equivalent of playing dead. I did not "let" him do it in the traditional sense. It was more that primitive parts of me kicked in and I didn't know what to do. I was unable to think in a rational manner and fully recognize that what he was doing was abusive and I needed to make it stop.

1) They don't really get off scott free. Would you for one moment want to live inside their souls? Would you want to be that person? Goodness begets goodness, and sometimes we have to fight hard to reclaim our goodness. In the end people who embrace joy, strength and optimism are happier. I would rather be a happy poor person than live for one minute in the soul of a toxic rich person.

I feel like looking at things from this angle puts me in danger of getting back into a mindset where I am thinking more about stbx and his feelings rather than focusing on my own. Yes, I want to be happy and embrace joy. I feel like my path to being able to be happy and to embrace joy is to tread through some of these nasty thoughts and feelings without trying to dismiss them or excuse them away. I have spent most of my life putting on a smile and pretending that everything was okay. For me, I think I need to give myself the time and space to accept that everything is NOT okay. I am hurting and I am in pain. I don't care what stbx is thinking or feeling. Thinking about what he is thinking or feeling distracts me from focusing on what is going on inside of myself.

2) Bitterness only hurts ourselves. I am trying to think of years into the future. Do I want to be a bitter person, still grousing about my ex long after friends have moved on? Or do I want to be a person who has found new happiness?

I think bitterness stems from not allowing oneself to fully feel stuff and accept the nasty feelings. I say that based on things that I have found myself bitter over at different times. There are things from my childhood that I will occasionally have bitter and resentful feelings about. Most of it is stuff that I didn't acknowledge as problematic. Until I acknowledged that I was angry/hurt/whatever, it kept coming back to bite me in the butt. With stbx, I tried to be forgiving, I tried to overlook stuff, and I tried to let things go. The harder I try to dismiss my own feelings and eradicate any feeling that is associated with negativity (mad, sad, anger, bitter, resentful, etc.) the more I struggle with being able to move forward.

I agree with much of this. When I say I "let" my ex abuse me, what I am talking about is a very complex set of reactions. In my case I got flooded. My PTSD was activated. If became about four years old emotionally, a terrified, frozen, helpless child. I also was unable to see that the abuse was unacceptable, because it was so very familiar. The more he abused me the more confused and disoriented I became.

For me the "let" is not meant to shame myself but to examine my role in the relationship, my reactions and why they occurred. Frankly I don't think anyone really lets anyone else abuse them, not in the sense that we mindfully chose abuse. I think in almost all cases this is what happens, we react with emotions that are a mixture of history and biology. No one reacts in a clear-headed way when they are being traumatized.

However, for me there is an element of let that is my own accountability, my own side of the street: it is claiming my need to have boundaries and to not play the victim role. It's a way of asserting my own needs while recognizing I kept reengaging in a destructive, hurtful relationship. Mind you I "let" him recycle me over 20 times. In fact I sought him out often for recycling. At that point I think it's good for me to really dig deep into why. Not in a way that shames myself, but in a way that illuminates and brings strength.

I agree it's also not about thinking about what the ex is experiencing, and I am very much still in that mode, so thank you for the reality check. I am in tremendous pain, and I do ruminate over what happened and what ex is thinking. For me that is partially about reconciling that is not going to be the person I wanted. It's a grieving process. I'm trying to be okay with the ruminating, notice it and be compassionate towards myself. My therapist feels I really need to stop being so critical of myself, and practice acceptance and self-compassion. In other words, not to castigate myself for doing this detachment "wrong." I'm only two months into the process and it is still oh so very raw.

For me bitterness is what happens when yes, you do not let yourself fully process and accept the emotions. I think bitterness results when we get stuck in anger. The answer is, not ironically, to let ourselves really feel the emotions.

[doubleAries]

surg-bear, I am questioning your acceptance that spousal support is the decent and right thing to do. Child support? sure. Alimony for someone with a good income (and I shudder to think she is a psychologist)? I think you need to talk to a lawyer. Alimony is generally for a house wife with no income, who was, is, and will continue to be the primary parent.

You may regret your idea that paying her to leave you alone is a small price to pay. It could be (and I don't know for sure, only you do) another form of minimizing and martyring yourself.

I could not get my nutcase husband to leave my paid-off-before-I-ever-met-him home, and ended up "stuck" with him for 20 years. I finally left myself to get away (and thank my lucky stars we never had children). I offered to let him buy me out at a really good price, less than half the market value. I'd only barely moved out when one day I went to get some more of my clothes, and he called the police on me and wanted them to tell me that I had to leave (his name wasn't even on the property deed at all!) and that he didn't have to pay me anything, because I had moved out. That "possession is 9/10ths of the law"   Of course the police didn't tell me any such thing, but it's something I will never forget.

Are you sure you are doing what you think is "the right thing", or are you doing what you hope will be the thing that causes the least amount of rage/chaos from her? Because it might not work that way. You may think she hates you and can't wait to see you go--and I thought the same thing. But what I discovered was the personality disorders often are even angrier when you actually leave. Who are they going to project their rage onto now, damn you?

There is a family law, divorce, and custody board here on this site, and I urge you to post this thread on there and ask for advice there. Best to you, and I agree with your counselor--allow the feelings. Don't swallow them. And accept that yes, they conflict with each other and your thoughts and values. That's what happens when we are human.

[GaGrl]

You have three distinct financial issues to settle - child support, alimony (if applicable), and your financial settlement of common property. Keep those distinctions separate, and make sure your lawyer does also.

[Grey Kitty]

I see some good comments on the anger and resentment already... .and have a different way to look the rest of it:

Today you are living with her. That has monthly/ongoing costs and benefits associated with living together.

• Saving money by maintaining one household



• Both you and she have significant income from the sounds of it, and it isn't clear how much your finances are separate, or which of you is paying for joint household expenses, so I can't say how much you are actually saving there.



• Being close to somebody who sounds pretty toxic for you



• Raising D8 together in one house (not sure if that is positive or negative)



• You are paying some share of the expenses for D8. (Again, not clear what share you are paying today)

If you split with her, there will be costs associated with the split.

• It sounds pretty like there will be some significant legal costs.



• Given past history, you sound at risk of having D8 taken away from you, although I would hope that this would be temporary and resolved in the courts eventually.

Chances are the actual costs of this will be similar no matter WHEN you do it. Well, unless you wait until D8 is old enough to change the custody issues--At some age D8's opinion as to which parent she wants to live with will be taken into account... .dunno if that will be in favor of you or your wife. You don't sound like you want to wait 'till she is 18, but that would remove custody from the legal dispute entirely.

After you split, if you do so, there will be monthly costs/benefits too.

• Depending on who gets primary custody (still most likely your wife in most states), there will be child support



• Alimony/spousal support, if any. (I am not a lawyer, and since she does have income, it isn't clear to me what she will get, or for how long)



• You will have to pay for your household completely with your remaining income



• You won't have to pay for any shared household costs, or your wife's expenses directly.



• You will still pay some share of D8's expenses

If you get good legal advice and do a bit of accounting, you can make some good cost estimates, and add them up this way:

Today you make $X/month, and after taxes, joint household expenses, and whatever of your salary your wife spends you end up with $Y/month left over for yourself.

A legal divorce/custody battle will cost somewhere around $ZZZZZ

After a split, you will still make $X/month, and after taxes (now changed as a single guy with alimony/cs), alimony, child support, and your household expenses for your new living arrangement, you will end up with $A left over for yourself.

If the transition takes you to renting instead of owning a house, you can put a numerical value on that too.

Anyhow, you can get some decent legal and accounting advice pretty cheaply (at least compared to actually paying for a divorce), and figure out what it really is costing you to stay in the status quo, and what it really will cost you in a likely outcome post-divorce. There may well be some uncertainty around the child support/spousal support issues, but you can still work though best case / worst case / likely case scenarios, and come up with a dollar cost for all of them.

... .and you can also add up similar estimates about her financial situation before/after. It may be that she will lose as much as you do. It may be she will be better off after. It may be a wash for her. Support will end eventually (at least child support if not spousal support), and that will change things too. One household is clearly cheaper than two, and how that added expense ultimately gets divided will make a difference.

You may not want to add up how it will impact her; if it is drastically in her favor you would probably be even more angry, and I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing.



Anyhow... .if you do this, you will probably realize that you are (in effect) already paying your wife something every month today. So it isn't that you will start paying her after a divorce--just that what you are paying her will change.

And you can compare that with the non-monetary costs and benefits of living with your wife and D8 vs. the separate households and any reduced custody/time with D8.

[Surg_Bear]

Thank you - everybody - for replying to my thread.

I have been going over these replies in my head and I think that my anger seems to be tied, not with the money per se, but the idea that she is getting off "scott-free" as it is, by not accepting my truth about the break-up of our marriage.  Her truth makes her out to be the victim and me the abandoning abuser.  And then, to make matters worse for me, I have to reward her with money- every month in alimony- probably for the rest of my career. 

I don't plan on being a bitter old man someday.  I am hoping that, by feeling these irrational feelings now, in real time, they are less likely to turn me into a bitter hater in the future.  I'm not really a hater now, and I don't plan on becoming one in my old age.

I have looked at the dollar amounts that I pay now- her half of the rent, all of the tuition for both kids (we are a Montessori family), all of the utilities, many of her credit cards, cars, insurance, just about everything, and always saying "yes" when she asks for money to cover this or that.  I believe that Grey Kitty is right- I am probably already paying at, or even more than,  I will be when the spousal support calculations are done for our divorce.  The dollar amount is somewhat disheartening to me, but more than this, what seems to be fueling my anger is the acceptance that I feel she abused me, and despite this, spousal support feels like it is a reward to her, and a punishment for me.  Intellectually, I understand that alimony is not created for reward and punishment, but to keep the lesser earning spouse in a decent and fair quality of life.  I am saying that it FEELS like reward for her, and punishment for me.  These feelings are what fuels my anger when I am forced to consider alimony.

It would be nice if I could argue, in divorce, that she is a fully licensed professional with a doctorate, and as such, she should be able to get by without any spousal support at all.  I am not talking about child support- I have no problem whatsoever with child support.  I think that my reasoning about her professional status will not be considered when the actual difference in our incomes are compared.  She makes far less than others in her field, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this thread.  Suffice it to say, she has luxuriously relied on my ample income to maintain a lifestyle that she could not afford using her earnings, alone.  She has not needed to be more aggressive in meeting her earning potential, because all of her earnings really are just slush money for her to do whatever she wishes.  My income takes care of all of the nuts and bolts of keeping the family ship afloat.  Getting her off my payroll would be a huge load off my shoulders, but I'm afraid that the divorce settlement will keep her on my payroll for the remainder of my career.  This is a large source of resentment for me.

I guess I need to find a lawyer that can advocate for me.  This might go a long way in helping me with some of my anger and growing resentment about what feels to me like rewarding her for getting off scott-free.

Surg_Bear

[GaGrl]

You could ask that alimony be limited to a set number of years during which she builds her practice to the level of other PhD psychologists. Also, you may consider a lump sum settlement rather than monthly alimony.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, I think you would do well to find a lawyer, and make sure it is one with real experience in "high conflict" divorces. And post about your legal situation on the legal board here too. (Reading stuff there is where I learned that industry term. The senior folks there are very hard-headed and practical about what the legal system can and can't do... .and I've read bits of what they went through that kinda burned off anything else, as they mostly didn't start their divorce/custody battles that way.)

the idea that she is getting off "scott-free" as it is, by not accepting my truth about the break-up of our marriage.  Her truth makes her out to be the victim and me the abandoning abuser.

She's entitled to have her version of reality, and tell it to people. She is even entitled to believe her "truth".  You may be surprised that less people than she expects end up believing it.

I don't know what your religious beliefs are... .I do know that one of my beliefs is that when a person does something to harm another, it has natural consequences, and those natural consequences come right back to the person who did it. You can say whatever you want, claim to believe whatever you want, justify however you do, etc... .but I firmly believe that what she did (Don't know details, but know plenty about BPD-style abuse), darkened her soul, and is something she will have to carry around at least until she does something to deal with it... .likely the rest of her life, as she isn't very likely to deal with it.

[Notwendy]

Surg bear

I agree with others to get legal advice about what you would owe for alimony. Since she has a degree and profession, it might not be all you think it is.

Also with expenses for the children, it might be possible to arrange to pay as many of those directly - such as tuition, medical/dental, anything like dance or music lessons, so that it doesn't feel like you are handing the money to your wife "scott free".

While being married to a high earner may feel like a deal as far as alimony is concerned, some of this might be resentment on your part that is clouding your vision. I say this because, while I am not divorced, my H works long hours and is the chief wage earner while I use a proportion of the income for all our household expenses. This includes the children's clothing, meals, music lessons, fees for sports, school supplies, and so on. He knows the total amount but really has no idea of the day to day things such as food, school fees, or even things like prom dresses. I budget that on my own. With any excess, I might buy myself something, but the kids' needs come first for me.

But one of the first things that comes out of his mouth if I bring up money is I give YOU all this money. and it is all YOURS which makes me just want to scream. Yes, he gives it to me but I provide a service to the family and he benefits from it too. The hot dinner he eats tonight is spent out of that money, shopped for at the store by his personal shopper ( me) prepared by his own personal chef ( me) and then cleaned up by his own personal housekeeper ( me). But when he is at work, he doesn't see any of this. I appreciate that he does work,and I enjoy taking care of my family, but what I do doesn't bring in a pay check to show for it so he doesn't really see it.

One some level, he knows the money is for the household expenses and the kids, but he doesn't see it. Emotionally, he feels he is working hard and giving me all his money. Now, I have not treated him like your wife treated you, but I wonder if the fact that you don't see the day to day finances of raising kids is influencing how you see this, and perhaps it would help you to get bills sent to you directly.

[Notwendy]

I bring up this issue to illustrate how resentments can be formed by both sides of a couple when they are not really aware of the demands and contributions that the other makes to the family unit. I am sure BPD can add to this difficulty a lot. But I think in this case, taking a look at what is her part as well as your part- your resentments, will help you gain some clarity over what part of your money is hers scott free and what is actually for the benefit of your child.

For instance, if while you are at work, she is providing child care, carpooling, homework assistance, and she is the caretaker most invested in your child, then some of the money you "give" her allows her to be that caretaker. If she didn't do it, you would have to pay someone who did.

This is something I observed in friends of mine who got divorced. Instead of seeing the moms with the kids in the grocery store, I would see the new wife with the kids while the H was at work. Unless the mother was damaging to the child, in many cases, I thought this was kind of a shame as why not "pay" the mom to be with the kids? But usually, the H was so bitter and resentful about handing over one more dime. Yes, I also know divorces where the man was taken to the cleaners. Divorce doesn't usually end up fair, but sadly the kids are caught in the battle and resentment between the parents.

One H I know would not even let his kids go to a birthday party if their mom was there if it was "his weekend" because it was "his time" with them. Sadly, the mom is my friend, and the child is my child's friend. But for that kid to come to my kids' house, I would have to invite the dad and his new wife- and not my friend. This is what resentment can lead to.

When my marriage was going through a difficult time, ( it can be a challenge) this is something I considered. I know that his attitude ( resentment) over money would affect the situation with the kids. He would be so angry he would rather hire a sitter than to hand over any money to me for their care. I didn't want to put the kids through that. It was not about the money, but that the kids would be caught in the crossfire over it. Regardless, there were not as compelling reasons to be divorced as you have- our situation was different, but I was concerned about the attitude that 'I would TAKE his money" and there is no changing his ideas about that. I hope to influence yours a little not for your wife's benefit but so you make the best decision for your child with some clarity.

Even if you paid her to stay away from you, the two of you are still parents to your child and will need to have some relationship as parents.  :)ealing with resentments can be for the child's benefit.

[vortex of confusion]

what part of your money is hers scott free and what is actually for the benefit of your child.

For me, in my situation, stbx uses the fact that he knows that my first priority is the kids as a way to continue to get off scott free and that makes me very angry. Whether it is money or child care or anything else, it is like he knows that I will do the right thing. That allows him to continue to do his thing without regard to what is best for the kids. He is selfish and it is all about him. I get very resentful over the fact that it feels like he can do whatever he wants because I am going to be there to pick up the pieces because I know that is what is going to benefit the children.

I don't know if this is applicable in Surg_Bear's situation. It is something that I mention because it is really difficult when I have conflicting feelings regarding doing the right thing for the kids and seeing him continue to benefit from my generosity. When will his taking from me end? There are certain things that I can't do because I know it will hurt the kids. I have to figure this stuff out and get over it so that I can continue to be a decent parent to my girls.

[Notwendy]

Ironically, this was one of the issues that limited my career plans. H was not selfish in the sense that he does work hard, but he would make no compromises about what he wanted to do- work, hobbies and I was with the kids 100%. He didn't make demands on me, but the responsibility for the kids fell on me. If he had a business trip a meeting, well I was the sitter, then when he was off he pulled the work card as reason for me to not ask him to help and the "I make the money so my job is more important " if I asked for help with the kids.  I had to get sitters for any work commitments, but it was hard for me to travel to meetings and put in the work to advance in my career.

As you can see this was a source of resentment for me, but not one that I wanted to involve the kids... In reference to my post above, I saw friends divorce and the kids' moms displaced by new wife ( who didn't love the kids )  happen frequently with my friends. The H was no more involved with their kids, but no way would he give an inch to the ex wife. So the kids were split between parents in a custody arrangements, taken from their moms and the replacement wives would be taking care of them.

I was not so worried about my H replacing me if he wanted someone else, but there was NO WAY I would want a woman who was not as invested in my kids as I was ( they probably would not be not much at all invested if they just wanted my H) raising my kids. This was more than enough reason to make decisions in their best interest, as that is how I saw it.

My H is actually devoted to the kids, and generous with them. The issues were between us. I found that having him contribute directly to their expenses- not all through me- helped with him feeling he was not just giving money to me. Kids get older and so if they needed money for a school trip or other expense like that, I would have them ask him, not me ask for the money. He was glad to do it for them. It was me he resented.

But Vortex, your H isn't contributing, and I don't know what I would do in your shoes. However, I might walk a balance between making sure they get what they need and also see you standing up for yourself ( role model).

[vortex of confusion]

But Vortex, your H isn't contributing, and I don't know what I would do in your shoes. However, I might walk a balance between making sure they get what they need and also see you standing up for yourself ( role model).

I feel like I am walking a very fine line. I am trying to process my anger and resentments while trying not to say bad things about dad around the kids.

No matter what the situation, I think it is important to walk that fine line between making sure the kids get what they need while standing up for yourself. It doesn't matter how much or how little a person is or isn't contributing. If he were contributing more, how would that change things? How does the amount the other person is or isn't contributing impact how one approaches things? Should the abuse somehow be less upsetting based on level of contribution?

A pwBPD is NOT going to advocate for you and they certainly aren't going to be fair. It is up to me to advocate for myself. If I can't do it, then I need to find someone that can. Part of the resentment that I have is that I feel like I have been put in a position where I have to protect myself from this person that was once my best friend. This was the person that I chose to marry and have kids with and now I have to not only act like everything is okay for the kids but I feel like I have to kiss his butt and give him a free pass so as to not traumatize the kids any more than this stuff is already messing with them. It isn't fair and it makes me angry and resentful that I am sitting her fretting over this stuff and how to not be resentful or angry and move on with my life while he is skipping around doing his thing without a care in the world. (I am probably exaggerating here. That is how it feels to me when I see him benefiting from my dedication and devotion to the kids.)

[Surg_Bear]

Surg bear

I agree with others to get legal advice about what you would owe for alimony. Since she has a degree and profession, it might not be all you think it is.

Also with expenses for the children, it might be possible to arrange to pay as many of those directly - such as tuition, medical/dental, anything like dance or music lessons, so that it doesn't feel like you are handing the money to your wife "scott free".

While being married to a high earner may feel like a deal as far as alimony is concerned, some of this might be resentment on your part that is clouding your vision. I say this because, while I am not divorced, my H works long hours and is the chief wage earner while I use a proportion of the income for all our household expenses. This includes the children's clothing, meals, music lessons, fees for sports, school supplies, and so on. He knows the total amount but really has no idea of the day to day things such as food, school fees, or even things like prom dresses. I budget that on my own. With any excess, I might buy myself something, but the kids' needs come first for me.

But one of the first things that comes out of his mouth if I bring up money is I give YOU all this money. and it is all YOURS which makes me just want to scream. Yes, he gives it to me but I provide a service to the family and he benefits from it too. The hot dinner he eats tonight is spent out of that money, shopped for at the store by his personal shopper ( me) prepared by his own personal chef ( me) and then cleaned up by his own personal housekeeper ( me). But when he is at work, he doesn't see any of this. I appreciate that he does work,and I enjoy taking care of my family, but what I do doesn't bring in a pay check to show for it so he doesn't really see it.

One some level, he knows the money is for the household expenses and the kids, but he doesn't see it. Emotionally, he feels he is working hard and giving me all his money. Now, I have not treated him like your wife treated you, but I wonder if the fact that you don't see the day to day finances of raising kids is influencing how you see this, and perhaps it would help you to get bills sent to you directly.

My vision is not clouded.  I see the day to day finances of raising kids because I pay for them.

I pay all of the rent, all of the utilities, the cars, auto service, insurance, tuition for 2 private schools, my student loans, her student loans, my credit cards, her credit cards, dinner out, dinner in, medical insurance, out of pocket medical expenses, incidental stuff for kids schools, clothing, and I pay for a babysitter to pick my youngest up from school, feed her, and watch her until mom is done seeing her patients at 8:00 pm 4 nights per week.  I pay for just about everything.  What I don't pay for is easily covered in the "can you transfer me money for... .?"

Yes, she does more housework than me.  If you look at the above, she is more than well compensated for doing the dishes.  But the babysitter does the dishes most nights.

I am not your husband, Notwendy.  I see very clearly where my money goes, and where her money goes.  Her money goes to maintaining her private practice.  My money goes for EVERYTHING ELSE.

I resent having to pay her in divorce because I feel like I did more than my fair share of keeping things afloat.  I paid for our marriage counseling.  I gave her a free ride in the lap of luxury, and she resented me for it.  She verbally and emotionally abused me for it.  She wouldn't even have sex with me.

I gave and gave and gave in this marriage.

I will gladly pay child support.  I have no problem with child support.

What I resent is having to pay spousal support.  I feel it is high time that she step up to the plate and pay her share, for once.

I fully see that what she does as a mom- and she is a very good mom- is completely uncompensated.  This is called "parenting."  It is the duty you have to the children you have brought into this world.  I am a very good and loving father.  The last time I checked, this is also an unsalaried position.

Surg_Bear

[Grey Kitty]

Have you consulted a lawyer, or researched what state law, regulations, or guidelines says about spousal support?