Oh...and the nice wife has showed back up

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Of course she wants something.

She wants to join the church.  I was open to the idea and proposed further discussion and prayer.

I hate to think of it this way... .but this is my biggest point of leverage I will have in a while.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

Of course she wants something.

She wants to join the church.  I was open to the idea and proposed further discussion and prayer.

I hate to think of it this way... .but this is my biggest point of leverage I will have in a while.

Thoughts?

FF

[Verbena]

My thoughts are that your wife uses God as a weapon and this is a part of that. I don't see you really having any leverage against your wife. She is going to do what she is going to do when she is paranoid or dysregulated.

[KateCat]

Same old.

I'm concerned that you relate this as a "bulletin from the front," when from outside it might be seen as just a point on a perpetually revolving circle.

I think you will begin to emerge from the circle when you no longer breathlessly await your wife's next move or provocation, or spilling of family secrets. You can move beyond this.

[formflier]

My thoughts are that your wife uses God as a weapon and this is a part of that. I don't see you really having any leverage against your wife. She is going to do what she is going to do when she is paranoid or dysregulated.

Perhaps some how in the "process" of joining I can move the bar in the right direction.  No rush on this.

Yes... .God and the Bible are weapons to "beat" others into submission.  This particular church has a heavy "judgment" piece to it.  In and of itself, that is not disqualifying.

My wife seems attracted to messages that generally say...

"you are a sinner... .you are on the way to hell... .aren't you glad that Jesus has provided salvation. You better do what he says... .or else."

I am generally attracted to messages that say  "God loves you.  He made you a unique and special person and wants to have a relationship with you.   God sent Jesus to give you grace and salvation and to show you how to pass on God's grace to others."

Both are "technically" and "Biblically" correct views.  I can't see that either one is "wrong".  However... .the type of person behind each belief is usually very different.

One is angry with a negative outlook.  One is generally positive.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

You can move beyond this.

Yep... .

What does moving beyond this look like?  What does "having awareness" of where my wife is in her "cycle" look like... .while not being so emotionally invested in the cycle.

In other words... .it is likely not smart to ignore it.  Also ridiculous to "tie yourself" to it.

KateCat,

My guess is... .that from the perspective of someone that has been wrestling with this (paranoia) for a long time... .you see me as too "close" to it.

Thoughts?  Guidance?

FF

[KateCat]

Yes. I think bpdfamily.com is the best thing going for any of us who are married to someone with a major mental illness. 

That said, most of the partners discussed here seem to fit the "borderline" pattern fairly well. Not so your wife, I think. Paranoia is not really unstable. Paranoia only seems to have flights of fancy and changes of direction. In fact, it is much more laser-focused. Much more hell-bent.

(Sorry for the dramatic language above, . I is used for reference purposes only.)

I think you are struggling to gain respect and self-respect. I think you still want to see these things reflected in your wife's eyes and in her behavior. I think the two of you will be at each other's throats until you in a way "let her go." Let her go her way, if you are strong enough to handle the fallout. Stay in the marriage and focus on the children. You can learn to help your children from within the marriage.

If you are not strong enough--and here the psychologist can likely really help you--you will need a very different direction.

My opinion only.

[Cat Familiar]

My mother, in addition to having BPD, also had a streak of paranoia. I didn't realize just how paranoid she was until I was an adult and my father was dead and I became the sole focus of her paranoia. Now, I wonder about lots of things she told me. What was really true and what was something that she created in her mind?

When I was in middle school, my dad started attending night classes. My mother was certain he was carrying on an affair. I had my doubts because I saw his books, his tests, his homework assignments.

After I graduated from college, I remained in the university town and got a job. My mother and father would drive 100 miles to "try and catch" me doing something unsavory. They would park outside my apartment building and wait hours for me to show up. It got to the point where my neighbors would call me and tell me my parents were parked in their car and then I'd climb down the cliff beyond my living room, walk along the beach, go visit friends down the block and wait until the coast was clear.

She wrote me such horrible letters that I had to enlist my roommate to read them, just in case there was any family news I should know. Lots of times my roommate would simply say, "You don't want to see this," and she'd crumple up the letter and throw it away.

I went NC for years and then LC. After my father passed away, I packed up my mother's house and moved her five miles away from me. The crazy continued. Even though she was struggling with dementia, she threatened to jump on a bus and return "home" to her old home, which was several hundred miles away.

I'm not sure why I'm recounting this, maybe to give an idea of a child's perspective of a parent with BPD and paranoia. I did love her and I know she loved me. The rages and crazy ideation were really rough, especially when I was the target of them.

I think of all the strange things she told me, many things that I just accepted as true when I was a child, and now I really wonder how much of that was just her mental illness. It's kind of unsettling. Here is one of the people who taught me how to be a person and now I'm thinking I learned stuff that was like a weird funhouse mirror, reflecting a "reality" that is not consensus-based.

[Cat Familiar]

Oh, and I forgot the juiciest thing she did to me after college.

She wrote letters to the University and the Police Department, saying that I was a "bad influence" in the community and that they should "kick me out."

It seems funny now, but it was incredibly painful at the time. Nothing came of her letters, but it was unbelievably shaming for no good reason.

I graduated magna cum laude; I had never been in any kind of trouble; I wasn't much of a partier, I was pretty shy; I was just a run of the mill student.

I think her strategy was to try and make me move home. What it did was drive me into the arms of my first BPD husband.

[Cat Familiar]

To wrap up my account and apply it to your situation, your title got me thinking of my mother. She could be incredibly charming and nice to get what she wanted.

That nice behavior was like finding an oasis in the desert after days of crawling on my hands and knees under a blazing sun. I just wanted to drink it up endlessly. And just like that... .it would be gone. It was a mirage after all.

[HopefulDad]

"I support you fully in your pursuit of your relationship with God.  If you want to join that church, by all means do.  That being said, your pursuit is yours only, not ours.  I may or may not join this church as I'm responsible for my own pursuit.  As for our children, this is something we should discuss."

This shouldn't have anything to do with BPD.  And if attending the same church is a requirement in your idea of a marriage, you need to handle this as would any couple (without PDs present) that has this wedge issue crop up (counseling, etc.).

[KateCat]

She wrote letters to the University and the Police Department, saying that I was a "bad influence" in the community and that they should "kick me out."

This is the paranoia I know. Hear it roar.  

I think we can only work our way beyond. Beyond disbelief, astonishment, denial, shame, horror, grief. It can be a long road.

[MaybeSo]

One is angry with a negative outlook.  One is generally positive.

Thoughts?

I think you are way too focused on wife. 

Your words and attitude when writing about her seem angry and negative; I think both of you are in a very unhealthy cycle right now.   

The only person you have any control over is yourself. 

[formflier]

"  And if attending the same church is a requirement in your idea of a marriage, you need to handle this as would any couple (without PDs present) that has this wedge issue crop up (counseling, etc.).

We generally have same beliefs.  Baptist.  Granted... .Baptists fight and argue about lots of things... .so there are many flavors.

She would need my blessing to join the church and I doubt they would let her join without my blessing.  In other words, this church is big on chain of command. 

That a wife "obey" her husband.  Personally... .I think it's overdone and would rather have a wife to discuss and compromise with. 

Her "quest" with her mentor is to learn how to become a "Godly wife" and "obey" her husband.

Sigh...

FF

[formflier]

One is angry with a negative outlook.  One is generally positive.

Thoughts?

I think you are way too focused on wife. 

Your words and attitude when writing about her seem angry and negative; I think both of you are in a very unhealthy cycle right now.   

The only person you have any control over is yourself. 

Totally agree with all of this.  Still trying to sort out exactly what to do... .what is healthy next step.

FF

[HopefulDad]

Then give her your blessing.  Support your wife's pursuit of her relationship with God.

[formflier]

Then give her your blessing.  Support your wife's pursuit of her relationship with God.

And the kids... .and how and what the kids are taught?

Basically... .right now we are a package deal.  We had a brief period years ago,  2-3 years ago where there were two different churches.  It was horrible.

Sunday morning turned into a mess... .more than now.

FF

[HopefulDad]

Then give her your blessing.  Support your wife's pursuit of her relationship with God.

And the kids... .and how and what the kids are taught?

Basically... .right now we are a package deal.  We had a brief period years ago,  2-3 years ago where there were two different churches.  It was horrible.

Well, as I mentioned in my first reply, you and your wife have to decide what to do about the kids and church.  If that intertwines with yours and your wife's choice of church, then yeah, that needs to be sorted out.  But your wife should know that you support her own individual choice of church.

[empath]

She wants to join the church.  I was open to the idea and proposed further discussion and prayer.

Remember how I said that it was a good thing that you were not members yet in the other thread? That keeps you from being subject to church discipline.

She didn't want to keep talking with your P but wanted to use her 'mentor'. Now, she wants to join the church. Hmm.

Personally, I have some concerns about this church from what you have said. It sounds very 'into' relationships of authority and submission (and obedience). Do you know if there is any form that you would need to sign in order to be members?

I also have concerns about the influence of the church in your personal life and your marriage. Do you find the difficulties in your marriage to be decreasing and you are coming to more unity or to more disunity?

In my own life, over the past year or so of the new pastor at my husband's church, our marriage has become stuck in disunity. The new pastor said that I 'could' leave if their choice to not hold to their written commitments was a problem for me. I did, so I'm on the outside (but not too outside because I'm still maintaining relationships). P influences my h to think that I'm "bad', too.

As I was reminded recently, our spouse is not our enemy. And anything that encourages a spouse to think of us as an enemy is a problem as well.


What would happen if you said no to joining the church for yourself?

[Verbena]

Think about it.  Everything your wife does is driven by her desire to educate everyone you know--and especially your children--about how you are bad and she is good. 

I see this desire to join the church as no different.  It could be awhile before you see this all play out but based on past history, it will happen.